The Science Of Sexual Orientation

[kweerwolf]

What determines whether a person is gay or straight has been the focus of social, religious and political discussions for years that almost always come down to the question: is it nature or nurture?

While scientists say a definitive answer is years away, their studies – including some of twins – are providing some early and interesting clues to inform the debate.

60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl reports on this fascinating subject this Sunday, March 12, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Studies of a pair of 9-year-old twins raised by the same mother in the same house who exhibit opposite tendencies seem to rule out the nurture argument. Adam paints his nails and plays with dolls; he asked his mother for a Barbie doll when he was just 18 months old. His twin brother Jared has as many GI Joes as Adam has girl dolls and prefers his camouflage bedspread to his twin brother's pastel-colored one. He wanted fire trucks when he was 18 months old.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

[MuseRider]

1. Ha! I almost posted

before reading, glad I did not since my question was answered.

It seems to me that the best news in these times would be to find out that it is genetic. Most of us could care less if it is or if it is a choice but if it is genetic it might be helpful. But then it could also fuel some very nasty stuff, as if it could get nastier. That is my arm chair view at this point, conflicted! Really, does it really matter why or how?

It is fascinating none the less. It will be interesting to know I suppose. How do you all feel about it?

[5X]

5. Genetic or choice are not the only options. n/t

[MuseRider]

7. True.

After reading the article it seemed that they were leaning to it not being environmental.

I am really just scientifically curious about it, as I said before, I could care less. It just does not matter to me. I guess I was wondering if it matters to the GLBT community?

[UncleSepp]

17. I agree... and I have some stories about that, too

They're spiritual kinds of stories, ooky spooky stuff that generally would get laughed at I think. If you'd like to talk about it, PM me.

[sui generis]

19. it should be irrelevant

in fact if there was a genetic cause or reliable test, then they could put it on your driver's license, like hemophiliac or organ donor, "gay".

Might cause some difficulty renting an apartment, getting insurance, going to a restaurant, writing a check to pay for your groceries.

Anyway, the best outcome is for people to realize that what any adult does with his or her body (or does not do) is their business and no one else's.

The world is so focused on gays and sex and sexual organs and sexuality, and the fact is nobody knows anything about sex in any practical subjective way but what goes on in their own lives. For all they know "gay" just means tickling each other with orange feathers and burping riotously. It's an abstract.

Do they also think that people who are nonsexual by choice or by genetics are immoral? They do exist, they just don't get the same amount of press.

Makes you think, what if two non-sexual people of the opposite sex moved in together or wanted to get married. Wouldn't that be a crime against nature? What if they adopted and tried to pass on their immoral ways?

Hide the feathers.

[MuseRider]

22. Well first off

I want to say (and I think you know this) that I don't care one little bit about why but I am a science geek, always interested in the why so that is why I posted at all.

I just watched the show. I will be interested in what you all thought about it if you watched it.

BTW, I know two non-sexual people. In fact they don't identify with a gender at all. I admit it confused me at first but now, ehh? No biggie. I guess once you forget about all of that and just focus on them as people it ceases to matter.

Crime against nature? Ah hell, it seems that they can find any one of us doing something they would consider a crime against nature. I just wish they would lay off, it is tiresome.

Thanks for your thoughts. I like the feather idea. I may use that one.

[dsc]

24. That set of twins were such cute little kids

I hope that they both can keep their positive attitudes as they get older. I can't imagine that the feminine one isn't going to get teased mercelessly in school.

[MuseRider]

25. Yes they were.

He will get teased that is for certain but maybe, just maybe by being accepted by his family and being so certain who he is and what way he is he will be just fine.

I never liked being teased, I can't imagine he will have an easy time but he seems to be pretty well adjusted. At one point I found myself hoping he did not see this taping. Something his mother said and him being the boy she wanted. I don't think she meant it quite the way it came out but...

I noticed they did not interview the father (did they? I had some stuff going on so missed some of it). My brother was a little bit like this boy and my dad tried to smack it out of him. When that did not work he tried to humiliate it out of him and when that didn't work he threw him into "manly" situations that could have been dangerous. Sick isn't it?

[dsc]

27. I am forever grateful to my dad for not doing that kind of thing to me

He accepted my total lack of skill and interest in athletics. I hope your bother has a better relationship with your father at this point.

[MuseRider]

29. They are both dead.

My father died a week before my brother graduated from High School in 1973. I don't think they ever dealt with it because the issue was not my brothers gayness, he never told them he was gay, it was because he was a "girlie boy" and a "pantywaist".

This is the brother that died a little over 3 years ago from AIDS. He never admitted being gay until the night before he went to the ICU and the doctor told us he had AIDS. It was kind of sweet, he said he needed to talk to me privately when the doc left. He gave me this long story trying to justify his gayness. The hell of it is, he KNEW I had tons of gay friends, supported GLBT rights, he knew the last thing I would ever care about was he sexuality, he knew I would love him anyway and he must have known that I knew, we had talked about this issues so much as we watched friends die or suffer from societal blows. Still he felt he had to tell me and justify it. Blew my mind, especially when he said that he was relieved that I was OK with it! It was bizarre but that is what dealing with this did to him. Maybe part of it was the time we grew up, I don't have any answers.

He died knowing he was the most important person in the world to me, he died knowing I loved that he was gay just as I would have loved him if he was not and he told me before he died that never in his life had he felt more love and acceptance than he did then. It just blows my mind to this day. I wish I had just come out and asked him long before but since it never mattered to me I did not ever think about what it was doing to him. :banghead: :cry:

If there is anything that I can do to support the GLBT community it would be with public education. When I think of how my brother must have felt all of his 47 years it seriously breaks my heart. NOBODY should ever have to feel that way. Why he did I will never know, he stopped breathing the morning after that discussion and was moved to the ICU and put on a ventilator (only because I insisted) AIDS you know, why even try?....that was what I was told.

[dsc]

30. It wasn't only being gay but the fact he had been dishonest

I would imagine. Even as I figured my family would be OK with my gayness I figured they would be appalled at my dishonsty. I am sorry for you loss, it sounds like your brother had a rough life. But for the grace of God, I could have AIDS. You are honoring your brother's memory phenominally.

[MuseRider]

31. Oh thank you.

You have no idea how good that makes me feel.

After 2 years of devastating depression after his death I went to a small meeting about defeating the Phelps ordinance in my city. While I had always been supportive this was my first effort to really do something and it was to honor him. His death was the thing that moved me to actually do something.

It was the welcome camaraderie of the GLBT community here that I was mentioning in my post in your bookend thread. I owe them, I owe them big time. They took a well meaning novice and nurtured me, involved me and gave my life meaning once again. I love and owe each and every one of them.

Be very careful with your health (I know I am mothering you by saying that and you do not need that). If my brother had not had such an established shame about being gay he would have been treatable and could have lived his entire life out. I will miss him the rest of mine, even though I know he is on my sholder. **HI Kim**

[dsc]

32. I do take care

I am so sorry shame led him down that road. It is tough, but in some places getting better thank God. I can't wait for the day that people like me and people like you are considered equals. It will be a long time coming, but it will come as long as people like you work so hard to help make it happen.

[MuseRider]

33. You don't want to be equal

like me, I am a woman and they are doing their damndest to make that worse than it is now. We ALL need to work to become equal to the white man. I know that may be opening up a can of worms and this is not the place for it.

I do know what you mean, you mean straight people (we have to think of a better term). I see no reason that this can't be accomplished. I don't know how old you are but when I was in High School you did not ever even mention gay people. In 30 years we are where we are now. That is really quite a big deal. Now add to that the fact that my kids are in college. They could care less about someones sexual orientation or gender expression. They accept people for themselves. Racial barriers are no longer such a big issue either. There are an awful lot of young people out there who will be deciding things soon.

Maybe I am being a pollyanna about all of this, I don't know. I have thought that women may have a better chance to fight what is happening so perhaps that might take up some of the effort of the other side and give us all a chance to organize even better than we are now. I am sick of being behind these people and always getting our chain jerked. We have done a lot of work to try to get ahead of the game here and so far (keep your fingers crossed) we are doing OK.

Know this. In the eyes of a whole lot of people, many who are silent, you are equal now. We are getting there.

[dsc]

34. This year is my 20th year reunion for high school

and yes things have gotten better in many respects. I took a lot of shit for being gay and I didn't even cop to it back then. Today, even at the school I teach at, it is better than it was back then. The fear I have is in some ways we are moving backward. I am old enough, though barely, to remember the 1970's and the fact we felt we were on the winning side then. Then the 1980's happened and we took several steps back.

[MuseRider]

35. You know

I really do not know enough history so I should not get into that. I don't remember any progress in the 70's here in my little Kansas town, I should have clarified that. The 80's sucked all the way around IMO. I need to look into the history of the movement, I know there was one but I don't really know anything about it.

Any recommendations where to start looking?

[dsc]

36. And the Band Played On is a seminal book

about AIDS and the 1980's. I am not sure where a good history of the 1970's would be. Maupin's Tales of the City series, while fiction, gives a good feel of the time and place of the 1970's and 80's. I would guess that in small towns the progress of the 70's was pretty non existent. But we were electing office holders, had a few TV characters, and the beginnings of civil rights laws in bigger cities.

[MuseRider]

37. I have read that book

several times. I loaned it out and never got it back so I may pick up another copy.

I was an ER nurse when the first talk of Kaposi sarcoma and the gay plague were circulating. It was scary stuff and then in the ICU after that when we started getting pneumocystis pneumonia. It was all so scary and to watch the Reagan administration do nothing. Damn shameful behavior in this country.

That is about the extent of my knowledge. Wasn't there a group called Stonewall at one time? Aren't they the group that the Stonewall Democrats used for their name?

I think when I get home later I may start a thread here asking for history stories. It is fascinating and something that needs to be seen by a good many people, me included.

Thanks.

[dsc]

38. Stonewall Inn

is a bar in New York City. It had been raided repeatedly by police, when one night in 1969 the people there decided they had enough and fought back. It was the first time that had occured and sparked the modern civil rights movement for gays. The bar still exists and I saw it when I went to New York. It caters to a very young, minority crowd now back then it was a more universal bar.

[BadRad]

2. Also...

...did it ever occur to these sociologists, or scientists who study such things, that the things that *make* a woman lesbian may not be the same things that *make* a man gay? For one side or the other, perhaps genetics weighs more heavily. With the other, environment may have more influence. Science may learn more about each if they'd stop assuming they were but opposite sides of the same coin. Lesbianism is too often shoved to the side in such studies, or tacked onto references as if it's an afterthought.

[Mythsaje]

3. Damn good point, BadRad...

Welcome to DU!

[ianna_kur]

4. gender or sexual orientation?

I realize that it was a 60-minutes piece, but I'm wondering what the actual link is between Barbie dolls, fire trucks, and sexual orientation. It seems to me that this country's media (and a majority of individuals) still seem addicted to the idea of feminized gay men, and masculine(ized? :-) ) gay women. I know a ton of 'butch' gay men, and a ton of 'femme' gay women. Maybe it is time to try to separate gender identity from sexual orientation? I'm personally not certain that the two are linked.

Sorry for the slightly tangential comment, but the whole gender/sex/orientation thing has been really getting to me lately.

It would rock if there was a genetic 'proof', but I'm with the earlier replier in that I worry about eugenics etc..

[Boomer]

9. There is no one answer

Which is why these studies are always doomed to failure. They proceed from the simple-minded assumption that there is a binary dichotomy of gay/straight and one switch that gets thrown to determine your sexual identity.

Of course gender non-conformity is related to sexual orientation. FOR SOME GAYS. Not for others. There is an incredible variety of orientations along emotional, sexual, and gender continuums, which means there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of influences on the final outcome. Some are genetic, some are hormonal and others may well be cultural or influenced by personal history.

I can think of at least 3 or 4 scales in which an individual can vary, and there are probably more:

Sexual attraction:
SAME SEX ............................... OPPOSITE SEX

Intensity of sex drive:
LOW .................................... HIGH

Emotional attraction:
SAME SEX ............................... OPPOSITE SEX

Gender identification:
MASCULINE............................... FEMININE

Social conformity:
WEAK ................................... STRONG

Depending on where you fall on each scale, your profile changes and your decisions on how to live your life change as well. A woman with a low sex drive may be content to remain celibate and have intense friendships with women instead of sexual relations. Or she may marry heterosexually because it's expected of her, but have passionately emotional relationships with women. Or, if she lives in a liberal era, she may form romantic relationships with women because even if the sex doesn't interest her, she still "falls in love" with women.

Is this woman a lesbian? The answer depends on who you ask and maybe even what century she lives in.

[sui generis]

28. I definitely enjoy being a manly male and doing manly things

with manly men.

I've never had a manicure in my life - and generally just wash the hair and throw it back without much more attention to it than that.

But I have a fabulous wardrobe and keep a tight "spring shave" at all times. Go figure. I'm a closet metrosexual.

Boxers or briefs? Depends on maker. I like boxers on the weekends, but all that extra during the week in business drag, not a good thing for me.

Oh yeah and one of my critters is named Tinkerbell. Complete utter proof that I'm queer.

:rofl:

[davidinalameda]

11. that was my first thought as well

just because a kid likes pastels and paints his nails doesn't mean he's going to be gay

the other brother could just as likely be gay as well

this study while interesting doesn't prove anything

[Obamarama]

13. Thank you...you took the words right out of my mouth...

When this gay man was growing up, I not only excelled in sports, I loved them. X-country & track, football and basketball were my forte. I also never had an inkling to play with my sister's Barbie dolls other than to cut off the hair of one of them (and no, I wasn't playing "hairdresser"!).

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. About midway in the article, she says this:

>>>>>Research shows that most children with extreme tendencies toward gender nonconformity grow up to be gay.>>>>>

No supporting evidence provided.

You make a good point. Much is being *assumed* in the report. As is the case so often when these issues are discussed.

[UncleSepp]

16. I read yesterday that about a third of transmen are gay

I have no idea if it's true, but it does seem to be commoner (or at least more commonly spoken of) than among other men. I haven't heard any stats on lesbian transwomen, other than that yes, lesbian transwomen exist.

Somehow, I do not think that is what the researchers meant. :evilgrin: It would be funny to meet them and tell them "Oh, I absolutely agree, dears..."

[UncleSepp]

15. I'm pretty certain gender and sexual identity aren't linked

I'm not only the president of the Hair Club for Men, I'm a customer... wait, what the hell was I talking about again? :-D

Oh yeah. Not only am I a transman, but I'm also gay. I can say with confidence that one's own gender identity and expression are orthogonal to the gender identity and expression of one's preferred partners. I played with fire trucks and toy rifles and got muddy and all that boy stuff, but it didn't stop me from being attracted to men.

[johnaries]

6. I think this unfortunate "case study" says a lot:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04051010.html

"Gender Study" Victim Boy Raised as a Girl Commits Suicide
WINNIPEG, May 10, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - David Reimer committed suicide last week at the age of 38. Reimer's parents, after a botched circumcision, were convinced by a Johns Hopkins gender studies specialist to raise the boy as a girl. Dr. John Money believed that gender was a learned trait, and wanted to prove his theory with an ideal test subject: David was one of a set of identical twins. He was started on female hormone injections and raised as Brenda.

David's mother, Janet Reimer, said that he would still be alive had it not been for the gender experiment. She blames the doctor for talking them into the sex-change. She described his life: "They wouldn't let him use the boys' washroom or the girls. He had to go in the back alley," she said.

At the age of 14, he was told of his true gender identity, at which time he rebelled, and lived as a boy. He eventually married and became a stepfather to three children.

Kinda blows the whole "nurture" theory right out of the water, doesn't it?

[ianna_kur]

8. That is so horrible

I don't want to believe that this still happens today, but I suspect that it does. IMO Definition of what comprises a gender (ie traits, habits, etc..) is completely societal, but what defines a person's gender identity is to a large part biological. Blows my mind that this crap still occurs.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. My mom worked for a urologist and saw a lot of this

She lived in California's Central Valley and worked as a medical assistant for one of the country's leading urologists for many years. Several times a year, her doctor would get as a patient a child with "indeterminate genitalia," almost always a child born to migrant workers. (The birth defects found to children of agricultural workers, caused most likely by the pesticides, fertilizers and other chemicals put on crops, will be left for latter.) Standard practice, until very recently, was to do reconstructive surgery and give the infant the genitalia of a girl, as it was much easier to do and (it was thought) didn't require telling the child anything embarassing.

[Mikimouse]

10. There is more to it...

The Psychologist who was working with 'Brenda' and her brotehr was, by their accounts, somewhat deviant himself, and this fact makes any real conclusions vague. There were two researchers (Lorber and Lindsay) who studied this case at different stages, and had different conclusions. The child was apparently fairly well socialized as a girl at age 4, but the situation deteriorated after that. On a different note, but relevant to the topic of the OP, the argument for a biological link has been suggested (not strong support and no replication) by Simon LeVay. There are a number of issues with his methodology, but his approach is based on the notion that if 'handedness' is biologically dimorphic, then sexuality may be as well.

[triakis36]

12. Those ideas have been around for a while

But none of them are conclusive. Twin studies are useful but very limited. A lot of people have already posted this, but I agree. There is nothing that proves playing with dolls or cooking makes a person gay, plus that many of these studies ignore the complexity of sexuality and instead focus on gender alone. But really there are multiple parameters with a whole range of behaviors and emotions. For one thing, sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is something you're born with, gender is an arbitrary construct that describes a set of behaviors. Sexual attraction and sex (verb) are not simple dichotomies, and don't even have to agree. The whole older brother, amniotic fluid thing may turn out to be as much hocus pocus as pink/blue.

Edit: Took a look at the testosterone experiment in prenatal rats. That was done in 1986, and no studies followed up after that. That's why news bits are always misleading when they drum up an old science article and call it current. The most current research shows prenatal stress does not produced "homosexual" behavior in rats rather simply reduced sexual drive (Neuroscience. 2006;138(2):357-64). So that potentially rules out the womb environment. Although another group had more success narrowing down a portion of the brain involved in female rat partner preference(Brain Res. 2006 Feb 10). A caveat about this particular study is that they only demonstrated the females would run to another female, not actual sexual activity.

[kevinbgoode]

18. For godsakes. . .give a straight man two beers

and he's gay. . .whether there is a barbie doll around or not.

[megatherium]

20. I'm waiting for the 60 Minutes story to run here, but there's another

curious theory for sexual orientation: past-life experience. According to Dr. Ian Stevenson and his colleagues at the University of Virginia Medical School Division of Perceptual Studies, there is scientific evidence that at least some people reincarnate, and that gender or experiences in a previous life might influence sexual orientation in the present life.
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/
http://www.near-death.com/dale.html

on edit: exorcising an editing devil

[UncleSepp]

23. No more so than any other aspect of memory or experience

In other words, having memories of a past life as a woman and being a man doesn't make you more likely to be a gay man, but having past life memories of having been a gay man might be more likely in a man who is gay in this lifetime. Some parts of personality seem to be consistent.

[W_HAMILTON]

21. Interesting story...

It's only a matter of time before they determine for sure that homosexuality has a large genetic basis.

Glad you posted this, or else I would have missed it.

I can't say that I exhibited many "feminine" characteristics as a child like some of those shown, but I do distinctly remember loving to watch my sister get ready for a date (doing her hair, makeup, etc). I was probably 5-8, and she was in her mid 20's. The '60 Minutes' story made me think again about those times.

[cboy4]

39. I'm sure all the gay haters are furious with that mother for

allowing her son to wear fingernail polish and play with dolls. Gasp, the outrage. :sarcasm:

I think it's great she's raising her boys the way she is.

I had to laugh when I heard Adam talk because that kid is so much more articulate and sure of himself than when I was nine years old!

I think he's going to be crafty enough, hopefully, to deal with all of the abuse he's sure to face in high school.

As for the show, interesting, but I think a lot of straight people that watched are still just as confused as ever as to why we're gay. :shrug: