Straight men who say things like

[Puglover]

"Well, I support gay rights but I'm not going too see a movie and watch men kissing. (Not necessarily BBM) I mean it grosses me out." Are they homophobic? Bigoted? Or just afraid of the unknown.

When I see this I always think "well what the fuck!? I'm as queer as a 3.00 bill but it doesn't bother me to watch a m/f kiss or f/f for that matter.

I've been kicking this around in my head and I'm not sure how I feel. I know it bugs me. Anyone care to weigh in?

Who knows? Maybe it's a perfectly normal reaction and it's okay. Interestingly enough I rarely hear women make similar statements.

[Caoimhe]

1. They are worried that they might feel a tingle

I know the same guys. It's fear.

[Inland]

2. "It moved."

Seinfeld episode.

[Caoimhe]

8. An example

My DH's best friend "Jim" is a manly man. He is married to a somewhat liberal gal, but he's a repuke pretty much through and through. Her aunt is lesbian and lives with her partner. Jim and his wife visit them all the time, go out and watch movies, go to eat, etc with them. No big deal.

The other day my husband brought Jim home over lunch and we were sitting there discussing movies. DH asked Jim if he'd seen Brokeback Mountain. Jim made a sniveling sound and said FUCK NO. DH asked WHY NOT? Jim said " same reason I'd never watch gay porn" I was stunned. In many ways, Jim is progressive. He's the union shop steward at their work, he smokes pot, he is fairly fun to be around if we don't discuss politics. My DH said "Well there's very little sex in the movie, period" and Jim said "doesn't matter, i won't ever see it, no way" as if to say DROP IT.

I came out with a lower opinion of Jim than I had before. He's alright with lesbians, but gay men make him uncomfortable. That right there tells me that he is not secure in his own manhood. He's afraid he might LIKE seeing gay men kissing or wrestling around. The funny thing is he is a long time wrestler and wrestling coach... Nothing seems more "gay" than two sweaty men in onesies grabbing eachother in all possible ways. Maybe that's why he's so sensitive. Maybe as a wrestler he was teased. Either way, in my eyes he's an overgrown boy with strange preconceptions and some hypocritical ideas.

PS the times I've gone to his house, he had playboys strewn around, in all rooms, and stacks in the bathroom. It wasn't a cause for concern until the last time I was over there, and his 2 year old daughter was packing one around! I told him I thought that he should get rid of his magazines, he basically told me to mind my own business.. Sigh!

[gator_in_Ontario]

47. LOL that was my first thought! n/t

[benburch]

7. Bingo!

Not so much worried as SURE.

[CottonBear]

3. They probably think that other men will think they are gay.

It's funny that straight men love to watch women kiss women and men kiss women in the movies.
I think that the men who are embarassed to see men kissing are insecure. Of course, not all straight men are so insecure.

[Larissa238]

4. I just think they are not fully comfortable with the idea

I really don't like to watch m/f kiss, but I have no problem with watching m/m or f/f. And this is coming from someone who is pseudo-bi (I'm a lesbian but I'm engaged to a man. long, complicated story)

Its not that I am biased towards straight people, it just makes me uncomfortable sometimes to watch them be intimate. Some people are just different.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. "Pseudo-Bi"

Cool! I learned something new today! Who says I'm too old to learn new concepts? :D

One bit of advice from someone who's watched the result - I suggest you don't marry the guy. Life is easier that way.

[Larissa238]

45. Yes, life would be *much* easier

But I love him with all my heart, and I know that he's the one for me. He's a fellow DUer as well. :) He's the one that introduced me to this site and cured me of my political apathy.

[the other one]

5. Hey! I'm that guy!

But to be fair, I woulndn't be thrilled watching any movie with too much kissy-face by anybody, no matter what their sexuality. What this film needs is more karate and more car chases!

[goclark]

6. Or they are afraid of the KNOWN nt

[DUHandle]

9. Uh…..

A straight white male who supports the rights of gays, non-whites or women shouldn’t seem too uncommon.

People who don’t want to view films that deal with sexuality aren’t uncommon either.

Hell, I had my local library take the uncut version of Wedding Crashers out of circulation.

[skypilot]

10. I don't think it's necessarily homophobia...

...although in some cases it might be. I don't consider myself heterophobic but I often fast-forward through sex scenes between straight couples in movies. I don't need to see that crap either.:evilgrin:

[Puglover]

13. I'm a pig.

I like watching anyone having sex. :evilgrin:

[xchrom]

39. sigh -- i too am in that group.

[Dolomite]

11. Straight guy's opinion follows:

Saw "V" like it was supposed to be my duty as a citizen or something. It bore me to tears.

I have no interest in renting BBM - sorry. And I'm pretty sure it's got very little to do with men kissing; it's because it's not the kind of movie I'm generally interested in seeing (ie; it's romantic).

I've heard that there's more female nudity in BBM than there is male (is that true?) - but still, it's just not at the top of my list of movies to catch. That doesn't make me a bigot does it?

Which brings up sort of a funny point - I'll cruise the international section because, for the most part, American movies are too predictable - so one day I rented "Stander" (synop: In the early 1980's, a white police officer -Andres Stander, played by Thomas Jane- in Johannesburg suffers a crisis of conscience due to his involvement in apartheid and becomes a notorious bank robber on the run.) Partly because it looked like a good crime/shoot-em-up/car chase kind of movie - but - when I read the bold warning about "graphic nudity" on the back (NC-17 at that!) I did my best Eric Cartman "kick-ass!" and rented the DVD.

It was a pretty good movie - but the nudity consisted solely of see in a flash of Thomas Jane's dong as he runs down a beach naked. Lesson learned: Nudity warnings work both ways.

"Hostel", I'll probably rent that (for the uncut stuff) before BBM - and believe me - it's not because I'm some kind of homophobe, OK?.

[catnhatnh]

12. OK....I'm probably one of them....

But if you disapprove of me for what I am (possibly insecure) as opposed to what I do (support gay rights) then who is acting bigoted?

[Puglover]

15. Thanks for being honest. And you bring up a great point.

And I honestly don't know the answer. As I said I've been thinking about it and trying to figure it out.

:toast:

[pdx_prog]

14. Hmmm....

I am straight as an arrow. It doesn't bother me in the least to see two guys going at it. I took my GF to see BBM and we both loved it. We have even been known to watch a little gay porn (both sexes) from time to time...:)

I emailed a friend of mine down south a few days after seeing BBM and asked him if he had seen it yet...he said, "I wouldn't admit it if I did, but no I haven't seen it." I had always considered him to be a fairly open minded and tolerant person but he really shocked me when he said this. I emailed him back and said, "WTF? I thought it it was a great movie!" He never responded back to me about it.

IN the case of BBM, people are missing a really beautiful movie just because of their narrow mindness.

[paul_fromatlanta]

16. I support equal rights for everybody but I've got no interest in Brokeback

And I'm a straight male.

So I'm in the target demographics for this thread.

My three years going to Rocky Horror allowed me to examine my sexuality in a non-judgmental environment and realize that I am straight and that its not some sort of decision I've made - its who I am (or part of who I am).

So I'm not classically homophobic in the sense of hating homosexuals because I'm afraid that I'm gay.

I go to gay bars occasionally when that's what the crowd I'm with wants to do but I never go by myself or intentionally select gay male oriented content (unless its historical or socially relevant for some other reason - for example its interesting to see the history of gays in Hollywood and go back and look at old films and see hidden homosexual references.) I'm a big documentary wtcher in general and this area is no exception.

But men kissing each other or having sex is serious turnoff and a film or show has to have major redeeming features to get me to watch it - for example I watched the first two (brilliant) seasons of Queer as Folk but as soon as the show got a bit lame, I stopped watching, turned off by the gay sex.

I feel entirely different about watching two women - its a turn on. (But not enough of a turn on to get me to watch the L Word."

I remember my older male cousin explaining the difference to me - he said "two women can have sex and its ok. They can become lesbians, they can be bi or they stay straight - its up to them. But if a man ever has sex with another man he is gay for life." I think that sentiment resonates with a lot of straight men, including, to some extent, me.

So feel free to analyze away. I personally don't dwell on this but just accept that this is the way I feel, except when I'm asked about it.

[Puglover]

17. Well, you sound perfectly healthy to me Paul!

:) Seriously not posting to analyze, simply kick it around.

Your cousin sounds a mite spooky though.

:rofl:

[paul_fromatlanta]

36. He is a mite spooky -but then he didn't have my advantages

It's a great advantage to just be around different types of people and have normal encounters - in-town Atlanta is like that. He grew up in rural South Georgia.

If you meet a gay man in Atlanta with a strong country accent (especially an Alabama accent) they sometimes have kind of a "deer in the headlights" look in their eyes like they aren't used to just being able to talk normally to anybody on the street without their orientation being an issue - apparently its tough out there.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. My best Austin Powers: "It's not my bag, baby."

:)

I agree with the guy who said that he's not into romance movies, and honestly, I'm especially not into romance movies written from the perspective of a romantic situation in which I can't really relate. This holds true for everything shown on the Lifetime network. Good Will Hunting was about as much romance as I can take.

Make a Star Trek character gay? Fine, bring it on. Remake Jason Bourne as a gay character? Sure.

More car chases. Less "Terms of Endearment". I'm an uncomplicated guy. ;)

Uncomplicated, but not a homophobe, I won't take that bait.

[Puglover]

19. You don't sound homophobic in the least...

and it wasn't put out there is "bait" I posted this in the GLTB forum, and I forgot that it appears for awhile on the main page.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did.

... my bad. :pals: I know you didn't mean to bait me, but I've heard the "What'cha 'fraid of? Huh?" thing often. Obviously there are some men out there who have locked themselves into the closet so tightly that this has some truth, usually affecting a macho right-wing persona, but IMHO it's overgeneralized.

I've learned to respect gaydar (my gay friends suggested that my brother-in-law probably shouldn't marry the lady he did, and they were right), while at the same time they agree with me - I'm not confused about my orientation. :D

Boom, baby! Car chases!

[Puglover]

28. Hell, you just sound fun! n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. Well, from my POV, the only reason I go to any romance movie

is to (sexist statement) ogle the attractive women. Romance movies just don't particularly interest me. Therefore, there is even less compelling interest in seeing a gay romance. Without a storyline that draws me or women to look at, there's no goodies for me.

For me, it's not the two guys kissing. That's not a problem. It's the lack of car chases and explosions.

For those to whom it IS a problem, I reckon it's just conditioning. Since gays grow up in a straight world, they don't get counter-conditioning against M/F kissing.

[Inland]

31. I know what you mean, at least in part.

I'm not a fan of romances, and having read the book (listened to the audio CD, rather), I knew Brokeback Mtn was slow, slow, slow, so I wasn't interested. If Ang Lee managed to take those wide open spaces and laconic cowboy talk and days watching sheep eat and fill them with drama, he's a genius. Guys kissing wouldn't change anything for better or worse.

But I do think it's conditioning as well. The reaction of most men to homosexuality is too visceral to explain any other way.

[TlalocW]

21. Another possibility

Some of us may just be grossed out by seeing people unattractive to us kissing. So, Roseanne Barr and Tom Arnold (when they were together) kissing, Margaret Thatcher and Bella Azbug (not that they would) locking lips, or a couple of guys mashing, might just elicit the same reaction.

TlalocW

[Dervill Crow]

22. I don't like watching kissing and "whatnot."

Body fluids gross me out. Spit, sweat, tears, etc., makes no difference. Strangely enough, blood doesn't bother me.

I would never make it as a dental hygienist.

I wonder if hypnosis would help . . . perhaps a phone call to Wendi the hypnotist of AAR fame is in order.

BTW, I'm a straight female and not in the least homophobic.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

24. Uh...no...

if you don't like seeing black men with white women then you're racist. Deal with it.

[Puglover]

32. Wow, Muyoso wasn't with us very long.

That's why I don't get attached to people to fast. It always hurts to much to see them go.

:rofl:

[Puglover]

25. First of all I can question

whatever the hell I want to. Secondly your logic is intriguing. "This doesn't make them homophobic or bigoted, it just makes them the norm." Care to explain that a little further?

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Buh-bye jackass.

[W_HAMILTON]

26. It's probably just something instilled in them

I think most of what you are talking about comes from the fact that a lot of these guys are raised to be entirely "masculine." I'm reminded of this alot when I watch something that involves younger kids, such as Rosie's gay family documentary on HBO, or hell, America's Funniest Videos -- anything like that. Boys can be pretty damn effiminate. But sometime (I'm guessing around puberty), it seems like most younger males begin to be affected by the whole stereotype of what a "real man" is supposed to be. So they'll stop doing most of those effiminate things, and they'll start becoming more like the stereotype.

But to get back on point, like it or not, it seems like our society's stereotypical image of a "real man" doesn't involve have anything remotely to do with gay stuff. It's seen as being less of a man or something. And there's a whole spectrum. On one end, you have the hardcore "religious" gay hater types that would gladly vote to kill off all gays if they could. Then somewhere around the other end, you have the types of people like you are mentioning, and I wouldn't worry about those types at all.

A large percentage of the guys you are referring to wouldn't watch BBM because it's kind of embarassing I guess for a straight guy, but still a pretty sizable portion of the guys you are referring to wouldn't watch BBM because it's just not their thing (meaning a love story). Hell, I'm gay, and I didn't watch BBM. I may watch it when it comes out on HBO or something, but I don't have a real burning desire to watch it, so I'm sure lots of straight guys feel the same way.

As for why you wouldn't hear those type of comments from most women, well, because they don't have to live up to the "real man" stereotype :)

[Caoimhe]

27. My advice to all you manly men:

if you want hot sex with your woman, rent Brokeback Mountain, and just look away during the one scene that IMPLIES gay sex (it doesn't show ANYTHING). Your woman will consider you a very open-minded, non-bigoted guy and she will most likely ravage you later!

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. The truth is...

my wife would probably be more uncomfortable with the storyline than I.

[Inland]

33. Finally news we can use! nt

[paul_fromatlanta]

37. Oprah has an article this month: In Praise of Manly Men--Who are they, whe

"In Praise of Manly Men--Who are they, where are they, and why do we still want them? " Interesting that this remains culteral archetype.

[TheWraith]

35. Another theory.

Of course there are a lot of reasons for this phenomenon, but I'll toss in another one.

Most straight guys, even those who are pro-gay rights, harbor no desire to make out with another guy. It's also not something that they see on a routine basis, so it's unfamiliar and potentially uncomfortable to them. It's not something that gay people have because they're accustomed to the vice versa.

Imagine for a second that straight people suddenly started having sex in public--naked breeders screwing on every other car or sidewalk. You too might be discomfited by such an unfamiliar behavior. For that matter, some gay people freak out when they learn that heterosexuals enjoy the same sex acts that gays do. People often react to the unexpected or unusual with a measure of discomfort. I expect it will go away in time.

[Meldread]

38. There are several types...

...the first type of straight male who wouldn't want to see BBM is someone who just hates those types of movies, regardless if it was gay themed or not.

The second type, and perhaps the most common type, is a straight male who wouldn't see BBM because he's afraid of what other people will think of him. (I.E. Will think he is gay for seeing the movie.) It's internalized homophobia from society, but such feels do not make someone homophobic - in fact those same feelings would be suffered by a gay person who is still in the closet.

The third type, and perhaps the least common, is a straight male who wouldn't see BBM because he's afraid that he might actually might feel some type of sexual tension. Typically speaking these are probably mostly straight men with some bi-sexual leanings that they are either afraid to admit to, or do their best to suppress. (And there are more of these types of people than most people know or will admit too.)

Of course, you also have the forth type, which wouldn't want to see BBM simply because it's a gay movie and they hate gay people - this is the bigoted type.

Falling into one category doesn't necessarily mean that you couldn't also fit into another. You could for example, be both anti-gay and afraid of what people would think if you saw BBM. Or be afraid of what people would think if you saw BBM and be afraid of feeling something sexually toward the (admittedly attractive) actors and the homo-erotic under currents of the movie.

[TheBaldyMan]

40. It would a bit like french kissing your sister, it gives you the willies.

just thinking about it. I think a lot of straight women feel the same way about f/f kissing.

[sui generis]

41. here's my take

I don't have anything against heterosexuals, but if I thought I might see a depiction of sex with a woman and become aroused, it might disturb me (if I cared).

I think the people who feel most at risk of their own reaction are the ones least likely to see it, whether they would actually have that reaction or not.

Having seen enough depictions of heterosexual intimacy, it's usually the guy I'm checking out.

goddammit I screwed up. :P

I don't have anything against lesbians, but if I thought I might see a depiction of sex with a woman and become aroused, it might disturb me (if I cared).

I think the people who feel most at risk of their own reaction are the ones least likely to see it, whether they would actually have that reaction or not.

wait there's more:

I don't have anything against pandas, but if I thought I might see a depiction of sex with a panda and become aroused, it might disturb me (and I would care!).

I think the people who feel most at risk of their own reaction are the ones least likely to see it, whether they would actually have that reaction or not. So bring on the mating pandas folks, cause I'm absolutely certain I'm not pandasexual.

[One_Life_To_Give]

42. Genetic

Somebody did a series of brain scans on people viewing porn. Forget who authored the study. Anyway the results indicated that there was a unique reaction by a good proportion of Hetero Men to viewing guy-guy porn as opposed to any other type. And the same reaction was not found in women, gay or straight nor in gay men.

At least for now I am willing to concider there may be a some primal urge for guys to supress gay activities among other guys.

[ldf]

43. i must say that some of the replies to this thread

make me feel like there is no hope.

everyone announcing they are NOT gay, but they know gays, have gay friends, have no problem with gays...

but the thought of, or possibility of seeing, two men being affectionate absolutely disgusts everyone of you "manly men".....

pathetic.

maybe i don't "get off" on watching you, personally, or straights in general, be affectionate.

but it sure as hell doesn't disgust me.

again, pathetic.

edit, spelling

[paul_fromatlanta]

44. "no hope" would be if we couldn't talk about it - but there is dialog here

For example, one could take the argument they are expressing how they feel. If that's how they feel then that's how they feel. But humans have a choice of how to act and how to label in response to the feelings - that's how progress is made - not by denying feelings but by choosing our response to those feelings.

[Democrats_win]

46. It's their loss--which is an American tragedy.

It really fits a stereotype difference between gays and straights. American Gays are willing to try new things....

Should we be surprised? Still, this is more of an American tragedy. A tragedy that Americans are so narrow (and straight;) )

BBM is a great story but it wasn't even written by a gay author! Could you imagine them reading gay-subject books by actual gay authors?


Gay authors are fantastic. Many of them seem to really know literature and art. Christopher Rice references Mahler's 2nd symphony in "Density of Souls" and Orlando Outland's "A Serious Person" is based on a George Eliot story. Straights will never know the edginess of Felice Picano's books. They won't know the elegance of David Leavitt's writing. What the heck, most Americans don't even read anymore. What a loss! What a tragedy.

One would suspect that straights don't want to enjoy life.

[gator_in_Ontario]

48. I don't think it is the sex

I think what is scary is the LOVE. That is what freaks them out...that the dude they watch football with all winter, they might actually LOVE.
Emotion scares the beejesus out of many straight men.

[bigscott]

49. well I am a big fag

and I thought BBM was just a so-so movie. it had nothing to do with the man-on-man action - which was minimal. I really don't care to see sex on the big screen unless is it good gay porn anyway :headbang: I have up-tight friends who did not want to go see it - I guess they were afraid there were subliminal messages being sent out through the theater. My family STILL does not understand it is possible for one man to love another man the way a man can love a woman (or a woman can love a woman)