Are we trying to be more like heterosexuals?

[foreigncorrespondent]

Are we trying to be more like heterosexuals by raising families?

That was the question of the day on one of the very queer shows on my queer radio station.

Because today is fathers day of course a lot of talk was about the fathers in the gay community. And one of the hosts of the show asked that question and for listeners to send in responses. I couldn't respond, because I was about to walk into work, but I figured I would ask my DU family the same question tonight.

Basically he felt that gay and lesbian couples creating families be it through adoption, sperm donation, surrogate mother programs, etc was more of a fad for the image of todays gay and lesbian couples. That image would be one of wanting to either a) project ourselves so much like heterosexuals that it would end up being hard to discriminate against us... b) a kind of new age gay thing that wasn't around in the 70's.

So what do you all think? Are we destroying our image? Are we trying to be more like heterosexuals by wanting the same things? (i:e marriage, kids, white picket fence, rover in the backyard.)

Personally for me, I would love to raise a family with Sapph. But in the situation we are in, it just wouldn't be fair on one of us, and the child/children. So Sapph and I decided long ago that kids apart from the animal variety we have wouldn't be part of our lives.

That being said, I don't see gay and lesbian couples wanting children as being a fad. It isn't a question of wanting to copy most of society, but more a question of equality.

Just because we are queer doesn't mean the maternal instinct just flies right on our the window. Hell I have wanted to have my own kids for a long time, but due to a medical problem that isn't possible for me. But that maternal instinct is still with in me. I helped raise my sisters eldest kid, and as my sister always to my niece "you have to remember Aunty Tina is like a second mother to you. She helped raise you from a baby."

Granted like many heterosexuals there will be those of us with no desire to have children, but is that a reason for those wanting to, not to have the right to do it?

Basically what I heard on the radio today was bigotry of the worst kind, because it was coming from one of us. Just because this certain host doesn't have a desire for children, doesn't mean we should all be robbed of that right.

And don't get me started on marriage equality. LOL You all know how I feel. :)

[ikojo]

1. It's called assimilation..many other marginalized

communities have struggled with the question of assimilation throught their history in the US. Jews have struggled mightily with it and it has resulted in an intermarriage rate in excess of 50%, with most of the resulting children not being raised in the Jewish faith. Thus one can see where and why the organized Jewish community would be alarmed about this statistic. It's hard to remain an outsider in American suburban culture where sameness is pursued and praised.

I think in the future, if the middle class and upper middle class LGBT community continues along its assimilatory path, Pride parades will serve the same function as do St Patrick's day parades, a sort of sepia toned and sanitized version of what the culture was before LGBT became just one of the parts of the American melting pot. People will be "gay" for a day or so, just as people are "Irish" for a day in March.

The thing is that for some Americans, it doesn't matter how suburban in appearance you are.you will always be one of "them" and suspect as a result. So, why lose your culture on the way to upper middle class suburban bliss?

[foreigncorrespondent]

5. I agree with you to a point!

Yes we will always "one of them" to some bigoted people in this world. But at the same time wanting to actually legalize our relationships and form families isn't actually losing part or all of our culture.

It is human nature to want to form loving and committed relationships with people we love. And from that human nature we also get the maternal instinct to want to form families. As I said above, just because we are queer doesn't mean we lose that instinct. Human nature is something we cannot switch off. If we could, then we would face a world with no gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, questioning, intersexed, etc, people. We would simply switch it off because of how society views us.

What I am saying it is us that make up the diverse culture found with in the LGBTIQQ community. And that culture is very diverse and has room for those wanting to form families, etc. That is what makes the LGBTIQQ community such a wonderful community be belong to. Unlike others, we have room to grow and expand.

[Ayesha]

2. Who decides what is part of gay culture?

"Gay culture" up until the last 10-15 years was based on marginalization and setting ourselves apart from society because we had no choice in the matter. Now we are more accepted, so there's less need for that.

I actually journaled on this topic about a year ago. Here's what I wrote:

-----
Should gay people try to present ourselves to the world as "just like everyone else?" It's a complicated issue.

The difficulty in society (and American culture in particular) is that we reject what is different. Society assumes that one cannot be different and yet still be an equal, valuable human being. So instead of fighting to be different AND accepted, minority groups (and this is not limited to gays) often try to portray ourselves as being "just like" the mainstream. However, that strategy is not always effective, and it doesn't work for some members of the group who simply can't blend into current societal norms. A very butch lesbian, for example, cannot "pass" as straight, but my partner and I are almost never recognized immediately as a couple because we don't fit the prevailing cultural image of lesbians. We're not trying to be closeted, we're simply more "acceptable" because of how we look. So if we as a community try to portray ourselves as "mainstream", we inevitably end up leaving some people out. And that is not fair or justifiable IMO.

On the other hand, part of the problem with categorizing people by sexual orientation is that the needs and interests of the people within the group are really quite different. For example, my partner and I have a lot more in common culturally with the young married hetero couple down the street than we do with the single leather daddy in West Hollywood. We're thinking about a house and kids; he's thinking about assless chaps and the weekend S&M party. As a liberal, live-and-let-live type of person, I support his right to have those interests, but it really doesn't reflect who I am and it does bother me that people like that are still prominently featured at Pride parades etc., thus promoting negative stereotypes of gay people. It becomes an issue of behavior instead of orientation and civil rights - giving the fundies ammunition. I was born gay, I want to marry my partner and behave in public as any married couple would - holding hands, kissing lightly on the lips, etc. I'm by no means a prude, but there's a line somewhere and right now some people are drawing it in a place that harms others by association.

LGBT people are the "in" subject on TV right now - I watch all the crime shows like Law & Order and practically every other episode is gay-related. Then there are shows like The L Word and Queer as Folk. Are we stereotyped? Yes, but no more than anyone else on TV, I would say. You don't see fat ugly gay people - but you don't see fat ugly straight people either. We're portrayed as mainstream, by TV's fucked up standards that is. Overall I think that is a positive thing - it shows that we've moving towards equality, although we still have a long way to go.
----------

From that I guess it should be clear where my partner and I stand on the issue: We want to be assimilated, to be seen as no different from heterosexual couples. Although we're both quite political, our desire for children has nothing to do with the politics surrounding homosexuality. My partner wants children because she loves them, has always wanted them and has worked as a preschool teacher. I've wanted to adopt a child, especially internationally, for a long time. As you said, the maternal/paternal instinct isn't absent in gay people. In fact, one theory of homosexuality that I've heard is that it's evolutionarily advantageous because it results in non-reproducing adults who can care for children while the other members of the pack/tribe go out hunting! If that is true then the many gay couples who adopt are doing exactly what we exist to do, biologically speaking.

Also, anyone who would refer to parenting as a fad has NO idea what it means to be a parent! Parenting is a huge responsibility and you have to give up a lot of your own life and autonomy to do it. It's not something any gay couple does just for fun or to make a political statement. And unlike a heterosexual couple who can get into that situation via a drunken one-night stand, we have to THINK and PLAN how we're going to become parents. That results in couples who are far more prepared for parenting than your average heteros.

This guy sounds like he still has a lot of internalized homophobia to work through.

[foreigncorrespondent]

7. I agree!

I hope you and your partner form that family you both desire so much. Adoption really is a good cause. When I first found out at age 19 that I would never have children my then male partner and I were looking at adoption. But we were too young to even really consider trying to raise a child on any serious level. And now, as I said above, Sapph and I aren't any sort of position both financially and living arrangements to raise a child.

Yes I think he does have a lot of internalized homophobia he has to work out for himself. The thing that kept pissing me off with him was he said not once but several times "I am the first to admit when I am wrong, but in this case I'm simply not wrong."

[Liberal Veteran]

3. I am not really any different from heterosexuals.

The only real difference between me and the average heterosexual is my lifepartner is the same gender while his or her is opposite gender.

Other than that, our lives are almost the same. Sure, some forms of entertainment may strike a chord with me that don't with heterosexuals (particularly those which involve what it is like to be outcast or considered different).

Unlike many other minorities, we were raised in the same culture as our heterosexual brothers and sisters. Is it any wonder that own plans and wants and hopes are similar?

[foreigncorrespondent]

6. Neither am I, Lib Vet.

Like heterosexuals, I shower daily, get dressed, drink coffee, work, have fun, and also have the desire to form a family with the person I love more than life itself.

[readmoreoften]

4. Lesbians with children is not a "newfangled" thing, either.

Historically, lesbians have had children through marriages in their youth or other encounters with men (prostitution, etc) The only difference is that, in the past, the state would take them away if their "deviance" was discovered. I think what's different is the idea that many parts of the community want to be "in on" the rituals of straight life-- virginal white wedding dresses, inclusion on parenting shows on television-- that makes it "assimilationist". Maybe we need to develop our own practices and traditions.

I'm not an assimilationist, I'm an integrationist.

[foreigncorrespondent]

8. Yes we have done.

As have gay men. I know of a gay guy who married and had children because his family forced him to live a straight life.

As for our own traditions and practices I reckon we already have them. Our community is the most diverse of all communities. And that diversity gives us practices and traditions of our own. :)

[mitchtv]

16. I Like your term better

I love living in a 50% gay neighborhood.I am not really fond of children
never had the desire. Partner and I have lived among straights for many years together, now we are in a suburban environment.It is still unfriendly for gays very near this neighborhood. WC Fields once said: I like children...well boiled"

[dsc]

9. When I was in college I gave up on the idea of having children

I figured it was just not to be. Now it appears it might have been but now I am getting on the old side of life for that. I really think in some respects I would have been a great father but that probably is not to be. In any case just wanting to have children isn't assimulation. I would think assimulation would be to act and vote more like one of my gender and class would. I don't see that happening soon.

[NMMNG]

10. I didn't realize we were so different that we had to make a concerted

effort to be more like them. As far as I knew the only significant difference between us and them is who we become romantically involved with.

Am I wrong?

[Tyo]

11. Our own worst enemy

What is it with some of us? Assmilation is good, assimilation is a sell out, if we want to raise kids we are just imitating straight life because we have some need to be like them. Gays have a separate and unique culture, gays are just like everyone else except for who they are sexually attracted to. Any combination of the above, none of the above. It's all crap. It doesn't matter.

The ONLY things that link all of us together are our sexual orientation and the fact that many of us, especially the older ones among us have been kicked in the teeth either literally or figuratively for being themselves. Other than that we tend to be as different from each other as can be. If we won't accept the wonderful diversity and the different tribes within out own "community" (okay, fine I'll admit to having kind of a problem with Log Cabin Republicans) then we can hardly fault straight people for some of their attitudes toward us and their confusion about who we are.

Of course we should have the right to raise children. And whether or not a given gay couple (or gay individual) choses to do this is their own business. No one straight or gay has the right to second guess them on this. Sorry. This turned into a rant, but this sort of thing just sets me off. I feel better now though.

[sui generis]

13. Exactly - not one single one of us sits around and wonders

gee I really want to be like heterosexuals so I'll adopt kids and pretend. It's self-flattering to "heterosexuals" I suppose, but we really aren't, and we really don't.

If you want to raise kids with all the additional obstacle we (and they) will face, it's because you really really want to give a kiddo or two a family and a loving home, and that's the most important thing in your life, and you change your life around to make it happen.

People don't do that to "be more like the happy shiny straight people". We really aren't lost, and besides we don't duct tape our kids and leave them in closets to suffocate or drown them in bathtubs in a religious frenzy.

As far as the "heterosexual" side of the fence goes - there are a lot of great examples of What Not To Do when raising a family.

[The Brethren]

12. good question.

I don't see it as trying to be more like heterosexuals or destroying our image, etc....at least as far as I'm concerned. I'm a lesbian and have always wanted certain things in my life during my lifetime: a loving partner in a committed relationship, a terrific home with the picket fence and beautiful, comfy furniture that we love and so on -- although you can skip the Rover, I prefer small sports cars. LOL

I love kids and also seriously thought about having children at some point - of my own or thru. adoption. But that never happened and probably won't. And that's one thing I've come to terms with that won't be in my life. Some wishes you get, some you don't.

All of these things and more aren't things that I chose to "fit in better" or be more like straight folks...and thus more accepted by them. They're things that matter to me and apparently to a lot of hetersexuals as well. Hey, how do we know they're trying to copy us??? LOL

I know there's a large debate going on about whether as a community we should demand and fight for our right to legally marry our partners and the legal benefits therein. I know some gay men and lesbians are for it and some think it's a waste of time, especially if they don't plan to ever settle down let alone get married...so why bother they argue? And maybe we're even "selling out." I can see both sides. I also know my partner and I want to have the right to legally marry and to have to same legal options available to us as straight couples. And personally, I wouldn't mind having a nice wedding shower with all the wedding gifts. When I think about all the gifts I've given straight family and friends over the yrs for their weddings - a little pay back wouldn't hurt. j/k

I personally believe we should all have the option to be able to legally marry or not with our partners if we want. Which in doing so, it also gives all single gay people that option if they meet someone they fall in love with and choose it as well. And I very much seeing choosing to have child as gay parents in the same way. It's an option that has little to do with being gay, bi or straight --- it's what makes you happy and true to yourself.

[davidinalameda]

14. I don't think it's a fad or assimiliation or selling out or whatever

we have more options available to us today in the realm of adoption, in vitro, etc

just because we're gay doesn't mean that being parents should't be an option

hell, I'd like to see more gay and lesbian parents-we're the ones teaching our kids that they need to accept others

our kids aren't the ones who are going to bully kids who are perceived as different, at least I hope not

it will be their generation and the generation that follows that gives us full and equal rights

I'd say go have them babies and if you can't have them, there are plenty of kids who need adopted into good and loving homes

[mitchtv]

15. Not wanting to sound "elitist", but

:puke:
(I have a strong separist streak)

[Smarmie Doofus]

17. People have kids for all sorts of reasons;

>>>>So what do you all think? Are we destroying our image? Are we trying to be more like heterosexuals by wanting the same things? (i:e marriage, kids, white picket fence, rover in the backyard.)>>>>>

"To be more like heterosexuals" is not one of them.

At least, not that I ever heard. Seems like there might be easier ways to accomplish that... to put it mildly.


I'm not sure I would say the same about marriage,picket fences and "rover in the backyard". There is a distasteful ( to me) undercurrent of conformity in the big push for marriage... although I would stop short of calling it a fad.

OTOH, people are forever trying to strike a balance between "being who we are"... whatever that means... and identifying with a larger culture ( or subculture) and adopting it's norms. We evolved as social ( if not 'pack') animals and it's silly to pretend otherwise. It's very hard to sort out what's "real" and what's not.

Seems to me, modern 'gay ghetto' culture places a *huge* premium on conformity ( physically and psychologically). I'm not sure I'd trade it lock stock and barrel for ' being more like heteros' but I may like to 'pick and choose' once in awhile from the hetero menu.

But I really don't think that's where gay parents come from.