I am a proud gay man, but...

[jhrobbins]

I sometimes wonder how my life would be different if those few little strands of DNA were somehow altered during my mother's pregnancy. I am not saying that I am not happy, but I do wonder how it would be to have children, the approbation of my community and the extended world. As I get older, it just makes me madder and madder that the conservative religious straight community continues to demonize us, when we have already given up so much already. So much for loving thy neighbor as thyself.

[David__77]

1. Are you so sure it's just biological?

I'm gay, and granted I live in California and I'm not surrounded by those "disapproving" of my relationship or my orientation sexually, but I do not think it's just some sort of biological thing at all.

Let me be clear--there is nothing immoral about homosexuality, whether "chosen" or not. I personally feel that I do choose to have a life-long relationship with another man. Whether or not I am homosexually-inclined by biology, I could care less. Human beings do all sorts of things that are not biologically-determined, like playing tennis. Sexuality is first and foremost a social relation. We are not animals, but conscious beings. I believe that raising the flag of "I didn't choose to be this way" surrenders ideological ground to our enemies.

[Not Me]

2. I have been thinking about that lately...

What difference does it make whether one feels he/she were born gay or made a conscious decision. I know so many people who have dated or been married to the opposite sex only to find that the relationship was not right.
In a free society, the right to pursue happiness ought to be absolute.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. I'm straight

but may I weigh in on this? I have always felt that the insistance on a biological marker was kind of a red herring in this issue. I know that "lifestyle" is out of favor, but to me the bottom line IS lifestyle. We have a right to choose what our lifestyle will be. To me, whether or not it is biological is irrelevant. Grown-ups make choices and those choices, if legal in our system, should be respected.

[cboy4]

8. TallahasseeGrannie . . if you, a heterosexual woman decided to start

liking other women and acted on that (which would be going against your biological "wiring" of being sexually attracted to men), then that would be a "grown-up choice" I suppose.

However, I can assure you that an OVERWHELMING majority of gay people you talk with will tell you that "choice" has nothing to do with homosexuality.

The only choice most gay people make is whether to live their lives in the closet or out of the closet.

[sui generis]

18. just the same, choice or not should be zero difference

it's a privacy issue, just the same as whether you wad or fold your tp.

We don't run around asking straight people to prove it's their biological nature to be straight; we shouldn't be trying to use that as an excuse or an explanation.

The fact is, what I do or don't do with my gonads is nobody else's business, and at any rate can't be proven in polite society, and that's the core of it, not nature versus nature.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Yes

that is my point exactly. It is nobody's business whether it is choice or not. It is, it is legal. End of story.

The only bearing nature and nuture has, in my mind, is in debunking the whole ex-gay thing. But even there, if somebody believes they can change, well that is their option to try. Personally I have not seen much evidence that that is a successful thing to do.

[Jamastiene]

30. You are right about the whole ex-gay thing.

Even the APA is officially against those types of therapies. As a matter of fact, they have been against it since the 1970's.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Actually, I do understand that

but to me "this is what I WANT" is more powerful than "I can't help it."

All of us deserve to have our preferences respected if they are legal.

[Jamastiene]

29. That sums up my views on the "choice" issue.

I never made a "choice." I didn't look at men and like them in that way but then turn around and look at women and "decide" that I liked women "better." The whole choice debate doesn't sit very well with me at all. It implies that all attraction is by choice.

[sui generis]

19. between "lifestyle" and "life"

I think that's the issue - although I understand what you're saying.

For some reason most detractors associate "life" with Ozzie and Harriet, and everything else as a life style.

Hey, brings up another thought. Let's say you're 122 years old, and you say you're gay. What on earth does that really mean?

Discuss.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Or is you are

a priest or nun or celebate. Doesn't matter at all.

Nobody knows our fantasies and dreams anyway. We'd all be quite shocked with one another if we did, I do believe!

[Jamastiene]

31. I have always argued that

if a group with only straight people were to sit around and compare notes on fantasies, they would be grossed out by each other's fantasies so much that they would never look at each other the same way again. In other words, what you said on fantasies pretty much seems true to me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

24. "those choices, if legal in our system, should be respected."

You do realize that up until very recently sodomy was illegal in many states, right? So the "choice" to be gay was actually illegal and this law was used to deny people housing, take their children etc. It's also still illegal in many other countries, does that make it wrong there?

Choice and legality are very bad arguments concerning homosexuality.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. Yes, I realize that

regarding the laws. They were wrong, and they are wrong where they are in place. That is my opinion.

I understand fully the concept of orientation and I am not arguing that. My point is that it should not matter. We are adults and should be allowed to live they way we need to, whether it is a "choice" or not. It is nobody's business whether it is choice or not. It simply is.

[purduejake]

49. So if it's illegal...

It shouldn't be respected? Just want to be clear, because until recently it was illegal to participate in certain "gay" activities... like sodomy which was selectively enforced.

[cboy4]

6. Who in the hell chooses to be a homosexual? You say there is nothing

wrong with it whether "chosen" or not.

Please tell us more about how you are really a heterosexual male, but that you chose to become homosexual and have a "life-long relationship with another man."

Cuz you're an Oprah show waiting to happen if this is true.

[David__77]

10. I didn't say I was heterosexual biologically or otherwise.

I said that I'm not so sure it's a biological thing. The bottom line is that, yes, people do not "choose" their sexual impulses, but they do make choices about what they do with them. And the freedom to do so between consenting adults must be upheld. Likewise, people make choices about their love relationships, and the choice must be defended, even for a "heterosexual who wants to have a relationship with a man," if such a thing exists. What I'm arguing is that the biocentric framework is unhelpful - and doesn't paint an accurate picture of human behavior that is always about more than mere biology. We're not animals, but conscious beings.

[cboy4]

11. Well you need to make it very clear that people do not choose their

sexual impulses.

You didn't do so in your first post, and now you have a bunch of people jumping up and down agreeing with you that homosexuality is a choice.

Of course, you choose whether to have relationships with people, but that goes for whether you're straight or gay.

No news there.

[David__77]

13. On the other hand...

...just because it's not a "choice" impulse-wise, doesn't mean it's biological either. Human development is both social and biological in nature. I also don't "choose" to enjoy listening to the kind of music I like listening to, but that's not necessarily biological.

More importantly: I believe that raising the flag of "I didn't choose to be this way" surrenders ideological ground to our enemies.

[cboy4]

16. I'm not afraid of our enemies. You shouldn't be either.

And you surrender to our enemies by saying you choose to be gay.

I understand that you don't want scientists to start looking for ways to "cure" gay people.

But don't tell people you choose to be gay just because you're frightened people will begin investigating your biology.

You are who you are. That's all that needs to be said.

[jhrobbins]

14. I do not think, no …I am sure

that that which orients our sexuality is biological. I also don’t think that the argument that the ‘biocentric framework is unhelpful’ is relevant. It simply is what it is and whether or not it is ‘helpful’ or not makes no difference. I understand what you are saying – what difference should it make if I do choose this orientation, but it skirts the issue. I knew from a very early age that I was different – much earlier to use the choice argument, because it had only a small part to do with sexuality or maybe I should say sex. Sex and sexuality are different. And I grew up on a Texas ranch, and I assure you that had I a ‘choice’ , this would not have been the one I made. As I said before, I am happy and cherish the relationships I have come to in my life because of my orientation, but it has not been an easy choice and those things that come, without effort or thought, with heterosexuality I will miss, i.e. children primarily. Adoption is not an option now as I am past the age for consideration. I just know that I would have been a great parent and find myself thinking about that loss, which prompted my initial post.

[David__77]

15. I understand.

It is my hope that more options will open up to people now and in the future so that they don't have to suffer such loss due to their sexual orientation.

[mitchtv]

25. having been Gay my entire life, I can'tsay much about strates

I tried in my early years to be strate, but didn't work. I don't think "choice, or preference" are any more valid than genetics, or biology. In My case I am hardwired gay, I suppose I could live eith a woman in a sexless marriage would that make me strate?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. I think there has been a lot of

knee jerk reaction to my use of the C word here. You have heard it so many times from right wingers you can't see it in the context I am placing it. Either I am being inartful in explaining or you aren't reading what I really wrote. Or both.

I am saying that whether it is choice or nature is nobody's business and therefore I think it is a red herring in the gay rights issue. Demanding rights because "I didn't choose to be this way" comes off as defensive and, frankly, rather weak. Demanding rights because "I am an adult and can live however I choose to live" is the stronger position and really cannot be argued against. People will argue forever about whether there is a gay gene, but how can they argue with "get over it, this is what I want"?

Just my opinion. I really don't know the science behind gender and orientation issues. I just personally think that the science is not the issue. Rights are the issue.

[Occulus]

43. TG, there's one angle regarding the whole 'choice' issue

that you haven't touched on:

Homosexuality 'being' a choice is the single, thick pillar upon which rests all religious objections. Take away their idea that homosexuality is a choice, prove it is not, and any and all religious objections become illegitimate. Why? Because the heirarchies of the religions I've heard of that do object to homosexuality have also in the past found that traits held from birth are, by definition, not 'sins'.

The religious need being gay to be a choice. The moment it is shown to not be a choice is the moment all legislation against us can then be brought up for successful court fights, lawsuits, and complete, total rejection of traditional church teachings regarding homosexuality. All of their beliefs rest on that: that homosexuality is a choice.

This is also why the very religious won't even consider it not being a choice. When you hit them with that question, they inevitably respond, "but it IS a choice" and don't even for a moment consider that it might not be. They can't; they know that there is no sin in traits a person has from birth. That's why they insist so very hard upon it being a choice; they would have to face how truly nasty they've been to other people... and they can't handle that, either.

Their entire belief system regarding homosexuals is contingent upon homosexuality being a choice. Take that away, and all their objections and legislation comes crashing down past their ears.

Homosexuality being a choice or not is a huge issue, and one that deserves a conclusive answer.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. Heresy !!!

and a damned good one.

Having seen the pendulum swing to one side on what *causes* homosexuality, I have confidence it will swing back. That is the way of things. Not guaranteed, but it is the likely case.

Moreover, I find the genetic argument to be self limiting..."I can't help it I was born this way" reduces the pressure to treat all members of our society with respect, whether they were born with $SITUATION or not. I understand that the biological argument has helped but in the long run we need to make it part of our culture to respect everyone, whether what they do is by choice or not.



Edit: Spelling

[David__77]

12. It's dangerously self-limiting.

If we don't DEFEND homosexuality as moral, then simply stating "it's biological" in no way ensures that anti-gay forces will, if convinced, say "Oh! They can't help it. It's not really wrong and evil!" Instead, they will shift gears and say:

"Researchers have found that alcoholism and even a tendency towards certain crimes are biologically-influenced. Just because something is genetic doesn't make it right. Those inclined towards homosexuality by birth have a hard road to travel like those born inclined toward other addictions. We are here to help them come out of homosexuality."

Can't you see it? Furthermore, a whole industry of finding a genetic "cure" for homosexuality could emerge as the field of genetic medicine opens up. The ideological and political implications are very bad. I've always thought so, but no one seems to agree...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. I agree

[mitchtv]

35. I can't help it I was born that way

Sorry , yes I am limited, I can never ever be strate, and I can't help it. That's the only limit- what I will do in bed. other than that I have never felt limited, except by society.

[Creideiki]

53. Scientific theory tends not to wild swings of a pendulum

It's more like choosing a course and then making mild course corrections as new information comes to light that can be incorporated into scientific Theories (big T). It's far rarer to see a radical shift in scientific understanding than to see the mild correction because the Scientific Method (big S, big M) means that you observe something, make a hypothesis, test the hypothesis and then synthesize the test results with what already exists.

[dsc]

27. I do think it is biological or at least determined at such an early

age as to be immutable. It matters largely due to 14th amendment jurisprudence and the history of civil rights laws. The 14th amendment recognizes no classes that aren't genetic. Thus in order to win a 14th amendment case barring discrimination we would have to see a genetic explanation accepted. Civil Rights laws have been passed for things such as religion and disability but in the case of religion it was felt to be largely determined when we protected it, and disability is usually immutable after one becomes disabled.

[mitchtv]

34. You and me both, brother

and 98% of everyone(gay) I know....Gay since awareness read "The Circle of Sex" by Gavin Arthur.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. Do I understand, then,

that you think homosexuality is a disability?

I never looked at it that way before. Interesting position. Or have I misunderstood your post?

[dsc]

42. No I think it is genetic or at least unatlerable

I mentioned the ADA as being the only non genetic trait, aside from religion, which have gained civil rights protections. I think if it ends up that being gay is a choice in the sense that most people use that word we will neither win 14th amendment nor civil right protection at the federal level.

[mitchtv]

46. more like being righthanded

perhaps , but different. If you want to say the inability to be attracted sexually to females(most)is a disability then yes. Where's my check?

[DU9598]

3. Me too

I have had those same thoughts recently. Part of my introspection has been in regard to a local high school in the 'burbs putting on the Laramie Project ... of course some sheltered folk decide that it is promoting a homosexual agenda. Here is the DSM Register's terrific smack down: <http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060908/OPINION03/609080343/1035/OPINION>

The Register says: Included in the script provided to the Register by Valley High School is an interview with one of the killers. When asked by police about the death, he says the following: "I'd say I hit him two or three times, probably three times with my fists and about six times with the pistol....After he asked me to stop most all he was doing was screaming."

The play doesn't promote homosexuality. How does a play about the brutal beating of a young, gay man encourage a homosexual lifestyle? Rather, it promotes tolerance. It encourages understanding and valuing diversity. It details the horrible actions of a few people and the thinking behind their actions. High school students should know who Matthew Shepard was. They should understand the intolerance that led to his death.

-- All I know is that I love who I am and the people who are in my life. Given the choice - which I was not - I would not change who I am at this time. Would life be easier if I were not gay? Probably. Would I want a boring, sheltered, life as a family man in the burbs? Hell no! My life is just fine the way it is. I plan to settle down in the next few years and hopefully adopt a child and keep traveling the world seeing what I can do with my life while I am fortunate enough to live on this planet. How could I want more?

[ACK]

5. Bless you man and remember

You cannot deny what you are.

Would we extend this to the point we have a universe of blond haired blue-eyed robots roaming the earth in seach of what?

An identity beyond the mask given to them by the almighty god of genetics?

The greatest threat of civilization and that is good and righteous in this world is religious extemism of all types, christian, islamic and otherwise. Fundamentalism is the greatest threat, period.

As a society we have to stand up and recognize that the right to worship as we please is as the constitution states but those extremists striking the core of the heart of this land for a theocracy must be stopped.

[cboy4]

7. Welcome to DU jhrobbins -- a welcome to the club concerning your

views! :)

[sui generis]

17. no need to seek validation through conformity

Have children, be happy, be yourself, don't apologize to anyone, and most of all, do not have regrets about things you can't change.

There are always going to be people standing around ready to demonize anyone for being different. Can't change that either. The test is, how do you deal with it and still find it in yourself to have a life and to be happy.

For starters, if "they" make you unhappy, they've won. Only YOU know where the grass is greenest - don't take someone else's word for it.

[Tyo]

20. Being gay is a gift!

We are lucky to be gay. Having to exist on the planet with the bigots and Bible thumpers can be a drag at times, but I still wouldn't change for anything.

[dsc]

26. I just went to my 20th reunion a little over a month ago

needless to say self reflection has been the order of the day. I do sometimes wonder to what extent my life would have been different if I weren't gay at all or failing that had been honest about being gay earlier than I was. I retreated to a bottle, hell lots of bottles, and due to that drank away a few of my choices in life. I can't change what I did or didn't do yesterday. I can simply be the best person today that I can be.

I really think in many ways being gay made me a better person that I would have been had I been straight. I certainly can relate to minorities much more than I otherwise would be able to and I am far more self reliant than I would have been had I had an easier time fitting in when I was in school. Both of those are good qualities IMO. But I sure do miss the kids and the family.

[William769]

28. I cannot believe some of the shit I am reading in this thread.

Get the fucking word lifestyle out of your vocabulary!

Until you do talk to the hand.

[Jamastiene]

32. I love you.

Internalized homophobia through trying to rationalize the right wing mentality on homosexuality just leads to a circular argument that is internalized as well. It is self destructive. I tried rationalizing based on their arguments for years. It only caused more pain and heartache than I really needed in my life.

When it comes to "lifestyle" I live in a small town in the Bible Belt. Trust me. My lifestyle is to shop at the same stores they do here, go to the same schools growing up, go to the same community college they do, and put my pants on one leg at the time just like they do. The only difference between me and them is that I am gay and do not buy their bullshit arguments about "lifestyle." It does not compute.

[cboy4]

36. LOL...Alright that's what I really wanted to write, but I thought, nah,

I've been angry boy all week and decided to not be quite as caustic in my remarks.

Yea, I "chose" to live a life of prejudice and ridicule. :wtf:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. And remember...

as long as our "choice" is "legal" it should be respected. Well, thank God those sodomy laws were repealed.

[William769]

44. Don't worry I got your back.

:hi:

[cboy4]

45. I know yah do!

:pals:

[Tyo]

33. Why be concerned about being demonized by Fundie losers?

Why would you want approbation from a community of people like that? There are lots of other places where the people are better. And hey, we are winning overall. The Fundies are fighting a rear guard action and they know it, that's why they are so nasty. You talk about getting older, well don't get any older where you are. Doesn't sound like a good place to me.

[jhrobbins]

47. You sound very young....

To be young and right again and live in a world that is black and white. Everything is so clear cut, but my life doesn't work like that Tyo.
And, BTW, I live in Austin, which is surely in Texas, but it is not of Texas. It's a little oasis of reason in a state that often is not.

[Tyo]

50. Okay, I deserved that

Guess I'm younger than I thought :spank:

[jhrobbins]

51. On the other hand...

we ceratinly need young people like yourself to show us how things can be and to move us off of square one and try new things. It's like everything in life - we need the tao, that duality of life that is so necessary.

[Zhade]

48. "I do wonder how it would be to have children"

Wait - so you wanted to be female?

:P

[Creideiki]

52. Looking for a specific causing gene

or combination is still relying on poor science. There are plenty of genes that get carried and don't get expressed. It's far more likely to be some combination of genetic and environmental factors (probably not even what most uneducated people consider as a "nurture" type thing where one can blame the parents for faulty parenting).

[SacredCow]

54. I hear ya loud and clear.

I have only been out for a couple of years now (and I'm 35). I certainly can't say I was happier living under my web of lies to myself and others, but it was easier in the sense that I didn't feel like I was being judged much of the time. I guess we all deal with it in different ways; personally, I had a housecleaning of sorts and anyone who gave me grief about how I am got the heave-ho. A few have come back with apologies, and I am letting them work their way back in.