Rant on sexuality, gender roles, misogony, and race

[hyde]

I just wrote a blog on myspace and I respect the opinions of a lot of posters in this forum, so I thought I'd repost parts of it here and get your opinions on the topic...


Where my studs at? (rant on sexuality, gender roles, misogony, and race coming your way)



(deleted pic)

There is something entirely too male about this person (girl in deleted pic), and I know that's what she's going for and I'm sure her girlfriend is just gaga over her, but not only does her appearance intimidate me...it makes me just generally uncomfortable. I can't say why, because honestly butch white girls don't bother me (i might be engaged in some black on black racism here) although I'm not attracted to them either. Back in the old days I didn't date black men, so it might be tied to that in some way.

I hope I'm not coming off as judgemental. To each his own.

A lot of black girls who present themselves as boys worry me. I think a huge chunk of the black male population is comprised of really lame, anti-education, negroes, and why anyone, especially a wonderful black woman, would want to imitate that is beyond me. I mean these girls copy everything from the bling on down. One girl who messaged me had "Get Money and Fuck Hoes" listed as her hobbies on her profile page. How incredibly backwards is that? That kind of mentality is exactly what bothers me about the black male psyche and then to have women go and imitate it irritates me a lot.

I mean... part of what makes my relationships with women so awesome is that I absolutely love them. I love everything about them. They aren't hoes or bitches. I might joke around with those words, but in all seriousness...I adore them. I think lesbians should have untold amounts of respect for the women they date, because we endure the same struggles. Ignorant men refer to us as hoes and chicken heads and bitches...we don't do that. We exalt the women in our lives and treat them like the queens they are. What are we doing if we are just replaying the same old male/female roles complete with misogony and the oppression of all things female?

There is something really sad about trading in your femaleness for the most depressing parts of the male masculine persona. The female hating, anti-sensitivity, brutish, gross aspects of the male masculine persona are seemingly what butch chicks automatically go for, and I don't get that. There is something really mixed up and dare I say...self loathing about that. It's like the best way to disconnect from your inner girl is to be the girl hating guy.

Maybe I'm over thinking this...maybe not.



Well...that's what I wrote. I know in some ways I overgeneralized, but overall I think I make a really important point. Female chauvinism in the Ariel Levy sense is nothing new, but I see so much of it amongst lesbians that it's scary, and it seems to come mostly from butch/stud lesbians. Especially studs.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Strathos]

1. I think we're all different

Some of my "butch" female friends don't have to try, they are just that way, and some of my male friends are "nellie", they're just that way.

Labels suck.

Be who you are and let others be who they are.

Peace!

[Glorfindel]

2. I can totally relate

So many of the gay male population come off as ultra-feminine (I'm not talking about drag queens, who are, I think, rather cool), and they emulate the most ridiculous female attributes like bitchiness, helplessness, obsession with makeup(!), etc., which just creates a general bad impression, and then they wonder why they can't find a boyfriend. Well, jeez...if you want to attract a man who likes men, what good is acting like a woman going to do you? I'm afraid the "stud lesbians" you mention are going to wind up like some of the "nelly queens" with whom I'm acquainted: lonely and embittered. On the other hand, some of my dearest friends and most wonderful people I've ever met are flannel-shirt-wearing, pickup-truck-driving lesbians...so maybe there's a ray of hope for everyone. I sincerely hope so!

[melnjones]

3. My butch friends

have always still been nurturing, caring, respectful women. Well, there is one girl who's a pain in the butt, but not in a misogynistic way.

[hyde]

4. My problem isn't with "butchness"

I actually fall somewhere in the middle, so I'm no girly girl, and I totally hate labels and think everyone should just be who they are.

What upsets is that I see a lot of misogony and chauvinism adopted, and I think that these things are thought of as what it means to be male by a lot of people. It isn't attractive in men and it's REALLY not attractive in women. I see it a lot, and it's really common in butch black lesbians, and it's just unsettling to me.

[KurtNYC]

5. I think you only have to connect with one person you really like

Not sure why we would be worried about how other people behave. Everyone has their own cross to bear in this life and some of that can come out as self-hate and other negative behaviors.

The very act of picking your friends and lovers means that you chose them over "a huge chunk" of the human population. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what might be wrong with the people I didn't chose, I simply direct my energy at the ones I did choose. My strategy is to'love and let live."

[hyde]

7. I understand your point

I don't associate with the kinds of women that I describe in my OP, but I don't see a problem with examining this particular issue as it applies to our community and our society in general.

I think what the poster said above about how some gay men seem to mimic the most superficial female attributes, what another poster said about women who climb the corporate latter and then start to behave and think like their male counterparts, and what a friend of mine pointed out about how some foreigners come to America and imitate the most over the top aspects of American culture almost to the point of tastelessness, are all connected, even if somewhat indirectly, to what I'm talking about in my post. I'm just trying to figure out how. lol.

I'm a sociology nerd though, so this kind of stuff is endlessly interesting to me.

[snot]

6. Does kind of raise the question of

some kind of Stockholm syndrome thing.

I'm straight so not so familiar with some of what you're talking about, but I work as a lawyer and have noticed a distinct trend for the few women who seem to get past the glass ceiling to identify with the males who should perhaps be seen as oppressors in some sense, to the point of being very unable to identify with most women's issues. Some though not all are also very butch.

So, reading your post, I wondered if some women -- gay or straight, and just like some men -- derive some kind of (arguably false) confidence by imitating those who seem more powerful in some way even if not particularly admirable in other ways.

[closeupready]

8. In many cultures, "feminine" is bad, "masculine" is good

Obviously, those whose interests are served by that misogyny are going to tend to buy into that, whether conciously or subconciously. In other words, to "be a man" is (in part) to be misogynistic, for too many people. A lesbian who is mannish would probably reflect society's misogyny. Does that mean she's self-hating? Maybe.

[hyde]

10. One of the questions i go back and forth on

you bring up in your post. I tend to think that a woman who exhibits misogyny is self hating to some degree, but I also feel that a lot of the misogyny present in our society is accepted as normal, applauded and celebrated even, and maybe because of that to say that female misogynists are self-hating is unfair. If you buy into an anti-woman culture, it doesn't mean that you hate the fact that you're a woman.

The adoption of the classic male/female dynamic (in SOME, not all, lesbian relationships), complete with male dominance and female oppression, still rubs me the wrong way though. The idea that maleness, dominance, aggressiveness, etc is synonymous with misogyny, oppression, and chauvanism is the central issue, and understanding how this happens and how to seperate these different concepts/behaviors is important I think.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. sorry but i dont like what you have to say...

"There is something entirely too male about this person (girl in deleted pic), and I know that's what she's going for and I'm sure her girlfriend is just gaga over her, but not only does her appearance intimidate me...it makes me just generally uncomfortable. I can't say why, because honestly butch white girls don't bother me (i might be engaged in some black on black racism here) although I'm not attracted to them either. Back in the old days I didn't date black men, so it might be tied to that in some way"

well i dont see why her style upsets you...we are free to dress as we want to...especially since butch white girls dont bother you i dont see why butch black girls should...this person is dressing how she feels comfortable and i dont see the problem with that. People can be sexist, women and men alike. I dont think butches are any more sexist that anyone else. Sure the stud who says "get money and fuck hoes' is screwed up, but she cannot define all black butches or studs. you are generalizing and over simplying gender/race/class and social inequalities. also black male culture doesnt come from nowhere. its a product of multiple variables. i think a black stud intimidating you is akin to people getting scared if there is only one black man on a train in the middle of the night...i think if you were just discussing chauvinism within butch culture w.out being race specific a better discussion may be had

[hyde]

11. I understand why you don't like what i said

I know that particular part of my OP isn't very PC. I'm black, and as I said I'm not girly. I've always been a tomboy, so I know what it is to dress like you want and to be who you are without limitations.

I think what I was trying to convey was the idea that the things in black/male/hip-hop culture from clothing to demeanor to values etc aren't entirely positive, especially where it concerns women. So then to see black women perpetuating those same things in relationships devoid of men was both concerning and interesting to me. Race couldn't be left out of the discussion, because in my experience I see it more in black women than white. It's true that sexism exists everywhere, but I think a discussion of how and why it exists amongst this particular community is important.

Now I by no means meant to imply that this is the case for all butch lesbians...or even most. I just see it a lot.

I also understand that black male culture didn't evolve in a vacuum. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why it has evolved into what it has. The makings of the modern black man, like the creation of the modern anything, is complex. Black men in general can't be lumped together, just like I don't want to be lumped in with every other black woman on the planet. Again though, we are talking about something specific. The the kind of culture that refers to women as "hoes, bitches, etc" is prevalent and it's super common in the black/hip-hop culture.

I am intimidated by people who refer to women that way, because I'm a woman. Male or female...that kind of contempt for women scares me. In my mind I associate certain styles of dress with certain attitudes, and I'm not going to always be right about that, but I often am. That's the gross part about stereotypes. They exist for a reason, but that often isn't fair to the people who they don't apply to.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. why are you assuming only black women are sexist and white women arent?

i think the sexism of black men (in poor urban culture) is more outwards whereas the sexism of white men (from more educated/wealthier) back grounds is just more subtle.


if you are saying that butches are taking on the male roles in their own race cultures then the sexism will probably exist in both just taking different forms.

[hyde]

13. I never said white women aren't sexist

I just said I see it more often with black women. Perhaps sexism in white female America is more subtle. I don't know. All I know is that none of my white friends that are girls, straight or gay, show the same overt signs of sexism that I see in my black female friends. That's all.

I also don't know if white male sexism is less overt than black male sexism. Sure they are expressed differently, but I wouldn't call the sexism of white males subtle.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. are your black and white female friends of the same level of education/wealth?

[hyde]

15. Yes, mostly.

Most of my current friends I have I met in college, or at work. Now as for the women from Myspace that I discuss in my OP, I have no idea what their level of education and wealth are. I do understand that exploring class and education is important when examining any of the "isms," especially where race is concerned, because race and class are unfortunately so closely related.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. well that sort of answers your own questions...the problem probably with the users on myspace

is a problem of education and not color.

[hyde]

17. Perhaps that is true for some of those women on Myspace,

but not for all. I think education is the key to changing people's attitudes about a lot of things, but I also know that the lack education alone isn't the only thing that creates problems and that education alone doesn't solve problems of inequality or discrimination. At least it doesn't resolve them at anything faster than a glacial rate. Sometimes the culture (good and bad) at large wins out over other influences. Even if you know better.

I think to a degree these women do know better, but again, they have adopted what they know to be masculine behaviors, and lumped in with all of that is the misogyny. It's so common it's considered normal no matter what your education levels are or how much money your family has. Sure, it's even more common with less education and less money, but it's prevelent in many circles.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. i still feel like you are oppressing your own.

just the way you accuse the studs of adding oppression to the femmes.

i vote this is one of the most disturbing threads on du i have ever seen.

mostly because you are black and can speak as though you have a voice of authority on the subject of black women and gender deviance. i doubt this is true though.

[hyde]

20. ok

I think that you are adding judgements to what I'm saying that I promise you aren't there on my end.

If I wasn't black you'd say that because I'm not black I can't talk about what goes on in the black community, and because I am you say that I speak as some false voice of authority. I in NO WAY pretend to be some authority on what it means to be black or what it mean to be a lesbian. I know what it means to be me, and that's about it. I was just talking about what I've seen. I can't see how bringing up something I found somewhat interesting and concerning, and asking what other people's opinions are about that subject could be interpreted as me presenting myself as an authority. Quite the contrary, I was hoping someone would see the situation from a completely different perspective and educate me. All I've tried to do is explain my question, and make sure that you and I are on the same page as to what that is, but I can't seem to get us there.

You seem to be the person speaking in general terms. I think I've broken the conversation down into a specific population of people, and you keep talking about "the" studs and "the" femmes. As if I'm referring to the entire population of lesbians on the planet. I most certainly am not.

I didn't say that anyone's actions were deviant. I never even thought of it in those terms. Just cause I don't understand a certain behavior doesn't mean I label it deviant. That's what conservatives do.

If you haven't seen what I'm talking about or if you don't think it exists as commonly as I imply that it does...then that's one thing, or if as I gather you don't think it's a big deal... that's ok too, but to come at me like "how dare you even fucking bring this shit up," that I don't get.

I truly feel like people can and should express themselves in whatever manner they see fit. I don't fit into any box, and I wouldn't want to put anyone else in one. Whatever works for you is fabulous, but that doesn't mean that I can't examine it to understand what it means in relationship to the bigger picture.

I think all people adopt behaviors. I think there are white kids in suburbia who know nothing about inner city life, but take on all the behaviors (dress, language, etc) of rappers. Is that deviant? Hell no, but it's interesting, and if I were a parent of one of those kids I'd try to understand it. I'm saying that I've seen some women adopt some of the negative behaviors commonly assoicated with men. That's all. When I see a girl refer to the women she dates as "hoes," I'm curious as to how we've gotten to a point to where that's ok. I think when men call women "hoes" that's oppressive. I think when women do it it's oppressive. When purple people eaters do it it's oppressive. If not oppressive, at the very least it's ridiculously disrespectful.

Could it be a matter of education? Perhaps. Income? Perhaps? I think both those things play a big part. I think the biggest problem is that it's cool in some circles to put women down. Particularly in some male circles, and sense gender roles are learned (sex is biological) I don't think it's way out there to posit the hypothesis that non positive behaviors can be learned too. If you thought that putting women down was inherently male then I think that's what you would do if you were attempting to assert your maleness. My problem really lies with a society that would allow a notion like that to grow.

Do all studs do this? NO. Do most studs do this? NO. Do all males do this? No. Am I a fan of the ones who do? Most certainly not. Do I consider them deviants? God, no. Did this conversation get out of hand? Yes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. honey if you werent black i would call you an outright racist.

as i would to anyone who said...i am ok with white butches just not black studs.


also you say you dont think this applies to all studs but you dont phrase you argument in that manner. you start of by talking about one women but then start generalizing from there.

[hyde]

22. i'm glad that being black has saved me from being falsely labeled

I think I explained what my issues were, and why I have them, and that in my experience these issues seem prominent in one group more so than in another, and THAT'S why I'm ok with one group and not the other. If race had nothing to do with it I wouldn't even bring it up, but as far as I can tell it does have something to do with it. With all of that said I don't hate black studs. Either generally speaking or specifically speaking about the ones in which I wrote about above. I'm allowed to dislike some of the things people do, even if that thing is perhaps tied to their African American subculture, without being a racist. Even if I weren't black.

I spoke generally about a specific population of studs. I've seen what I'm talking about enough times to make an intellectual leap and assume that not only is it common enough to just have a general conversation about it, but that people might have seen similar behaviors in other situations and in other populations of people. As did some.

I copied that OP right from my blog where I don't necessarily edit for an audience other than my friends, who know me. So it's more than fair of you to take me to task on my views and how I presented them, which I obviously could have done a better job with, but we've done that now for several exchanges, and unless there's something new to add I'm not gonna respond to anymore "if you weren't black you'd be a racist" posts.

[NMMNG]

18. "Thoughts? Opinions?"

Wow. Just wow. :wow:

[election_2004]

23. All the lesbians I've encountered have been positive, friendly people...

...of course, because I'm a gay male, maybe their attitudes toward me have been different than how they would interact with straights.