An exchange I think worth discussing in here

[Occulus]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3105484&mesg_id=3106969

edited to add: Do these two just not "get" what my objection is?

[Book Lover]

1. One of the posters you have had that exchange with

will never *not* support a draft; that person is a lost cause (from one who knows...) I believe that he does not get your objection at all, yes. Basically, that person is telling you to just suck it up, that everything will change once everybody is a member of the service. :eyes:

[Occulus]

2. Okay, fair enough. Do YOU understand the gist of what I'm trying to say?

I'm thinking I might not be articulating myself very well on this.

[Book Lover]

3. Oh, I certainly do!

And, frankly, I do not understand what part of "being forced back into the closet" they don't get.

[Occulus]

4. After all, it's exactly what would happen.

And for the record, I do think that poster would be happy to see that happen.

[Book Lover]

5. I have to be completely fair

and say that I don't think that poster is even thinking that far ahead. That person just wants every single person, regardless of personal situation, to line up at the age of 18 and hand themselves over to the state for use as the state sees fit. And this is somehow going to stop a war. Do you give gin to a drunk and then tell her to not drink?

[sniffa]

6. i get what you're saying

i disagree with you though. and he owes us no expLanation.

i'm gLad you brought this in here though.

if i get drafted, i get drafted; i just ain't going. not going to canada, but i ain't going to boot camp. they can get fucked. if i go to jaiL, so be it... but they have to come get me first.

[SanFranciscoValues]

7. Hmmm

I don't think that they did get it, but I don't really think that you did either. There are really two issues involved here. #1 DODT and #2 Compulsory military service.

I am presuming that those in DU who are in favor of instituting a draft are also in favor of lifting the ban on gays serving in the armed forces. And I believe that an end to DODT would necessitate inclusion/tolerance training concerning gays and lesbians, as well as strict anti-harassment rules for members of the armed forces, to include harassment against gays/lesbians. I would like to point to a recent poll taken of members of the armed forces indicating that 1-they would like to see an end to DODT, and 2-a majority of them would be comfortable serving with gays and lesbians. That all being said, I believe that, of course, there will still be those in the military who will be uncomfortable with gays and lesbians and who may try to harass or attack them, and I also think that there will still be many gay and lesbian service members who will remain in the closet, even after a lift of the ban, as a result of those very fears. But I firmly believe that the only way to end discriminatory beliefs is to expose those who hold such beliefs to the people whom they are so afraid/hateful of. You can not combat ignorance by fueling it, which is what the DODT policy, which basically forces gay service members to be closeted, does. If there was to be a draft, I would support all people, regardless of sex, race, sexual orientation, etc., being a part of it.

Which leads me to the second issue that is involved here: compulsory military service. I understand why some people would want a draft. Right now we have young minorities and poor people who have enlisted because our society has left them with too few options in life, while the wealthy/middle class can afford not to enlist. This has lead to an unacceptable level of acceptance of our current war in Iraq. A draft would likely change public sentiment dramatically against this war (although, it seems that this has already happened). Which is exactly why the Bush Administration has not, and will not, call for a draft. They sold the American public on a cheap, fast, and relatively easy war. So while I can understand some people's call for a draft, I still could not support it. I do not support this war-period. A draft should only be instituted when absolutely necessary to protect our country from a direct and serious threat. A war should only be conducted for the same reason.

So there is my short answer. LOL. Seriously though, I understand where you are coming from. But I think that the only way to combat homophobia is by being open and honest about your orientation, even when it might be scary to do so. I served in the Air Force and quit because I realized that I could not live with myself being in the closet anymore. But I never feared for my safety, nor would I have if I had been allowed to be more open about who I am.

[mitchtv]

8. Stunning, but I have to believe that these few posters I read

would be the kind of people who would defend gays drafted into service. I still don't think they get it. I have to believe like SF Values that they are assuming the end of DADT, and equal spousal benefits/equal protection . If not fuck'm and the horses they rode in on

[Jella]

9. I struggle with my support

for the military,( not necessarily the soldiers in general) for just the reason of your argument. I don't think they got it, probably because they just don't understand how it feels to be GLBT.

I signed my draft card at 18, and today if I was called during a draft it would depend on my feelings that day. Sounds kind of wishy-washy I know, but it's the truth. Some days I would plow forward with all the respect for this country that I thought it was to represent, and other days because of the treatment of GLBT, I would say fuck you.

It was a good argument, and from reading that whole post quite the hot button issue. I guess overall IF they dropped the DADT, and welcomed gays as anyone else, along with bigotry training, I would be in support of a draft. Not that I support war, but that I think it would be good for this country to actually experience that threat of being sent into a combat zone. I would also hope, that it would push this country forward as to it's accepting the fact that GLBT people are of equal value, and should be afforded the same dam rights.

It's funny, as I type this, I don't actually believe that any of this will come to actualization, but I guess it's just my hope.

[mitchtv]

10. It's simple

Equal rights buys universal service
Persecution buys resistance
I can only serve if I can do so safely, for myself and my "family".

[sui generis]

11. If we need a draft we're a lost cause.

Period.

I have zero warmth for anyone who supports a peacetime draft of anyone but themselves.

And that, incidentally is called a volunteer military.

When we have poorly educated self-brain-damaged idiots like George W. Bush as president, who assume dictatorial roles to prop up lies for going to war, this country doesn't deserve our children in the military to unfuck his mistakes.

America is an idea. When the idea changes, it's somebody else's country. If America keeps stepping in shit with the boots of our military, then America doesn't deserve boots.