Rudy Guiliani's cross dressing.

[hedgehog]

Many have identified the fuss over Guiliani's habit of cross dressing as an appeal to anti-gay sentiment. That may well be. However, as a straight female, proud mother of a lesbian, I read his presentations as anti-female. Note that he is not trying to dress as an authentic woman but is exaggerating female characteristics and behaviors. It's a put-down of all females as silly , stupid, ugly and vain.

[MADem]

1. He's being campy. He's not anti-female by those actions. That's a bridge too far.

No, he's anti-female in the fer-shit way he treated his ex-wives, and by the many insults he hurled at his female staff members.

But suggesting that because the idiot thinks he is a latter day Milton Berle, or a star attraction at a Crossing the Line celebration, is evidence of his "anti-femaleness" is a bit too much of a stretch, I believe.

[hedgehog]

2. Well, when does camp become anti-female?

I never liked Milton Berle or for that matter Lucille Ball. Her antics epitomized a certain attitude that women were stupid and childish, especially when they tried to enter the realm of adults i.e males. It's that attitude that I pick up on when I see clips of Rudy's antics.

Imagine if Rudy routinely donned black face. That's how I feel when I see him in lipstick, wig and stuffed bosom.

This is different than some of the drag queens I've seen who appear to be honestly exploring what it means to be female. To me their beauty is a tribute to an ideal. Could it be a response to and repudiation of the traditional clowning of straight white men?

[MADem]

6. I absolutely, firmly, don't think it is. Your mileage obviously varies.

Lucille Balle wasn't a man dressing up as a woman. She was a female comedienne who represented the mores of her era. I don't get the comparison with her, frankly. She has nothing to do with Rudy, she was a contemporary of Berle, but the only reason I brought him up (you apparently don't realize this) is that he routinely wore women's clothing in his act (and he was said to be quite the swordsman, too, if you believe the stories).

Actually, Lucy was considered very "ballsy" (pardon the expression, it was acceptable back in her day) for a woman of her time--when women were staying at home and cooking, she was doing it all--having kids, creating the first major multi-program TV production company, developing, with her (philandering and drunken) husband, the three camera system that is STILL in use today, and setting up a powerhouse studio, in addition to starring in films. It wasn't easy for her--she battled stereotypes in every aspect of her business life, and she had to put up with a weak, unreliable, cheating and disrespecting partner, too.

I think Lucy is hilarious. I did way back when, I still do now. Lucy and Ethel in the chocolate factory, VITAMEATAVEGAMIN, or her making pizza and wine in Italy, those are classics. She had a tough life, and she overcame a lot of grief and woe. She wasn't always as cheerful off stage or screen, but like I said, she had a tough life.

The 'blackface' analogy is lame, too. People don't wear blackface because they'll be pummelled for doing it. It's inappropriate in this era.

But people do, in this era, wear the clothing of the opposite sex, and they do it often enough that there are businesses that accomodate the practice, clubs that meet to discuss it, and people who live their lives wearing the clothes of the opposite gender--MSNBC did a whole special on it some time ago. Some do it because they have an absolute compulsion to do it, some do it as a costume, and some do it for other reasons--it makes them happy, apparently.

I gotta ask--do you get equally upset when women wear men's clothing? We see that in the street every day. And on TV, too. Should we go after the women who "dress like men?"

Which of these are males, and how many of them should we punish? http://www.joeschwartz.net/shemale/index.html

Are you hung up on Deuteronomy 22:5, or what? http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Look, Rudy has his own reasons for wearing women's clothing. I wouldn't be surprised if it gives him some sense of satisfaction, and the only way he gets to really enjoy himself in public, owing to his public profile, is to camp it up.

I personally don't like the guy, and thus I am overjoyed that his little 'habit' will make some of the tighty righties look askance at him, but to assume his costumes are an expression of 'wimmen hatin'' is just WAY too much of a stretch for me to buy.

If I were betting, I'd say he dresses up just a little too much, suggesting to me, if anything, that it gives him a whole lotta personal joy that he disguises as 'good sportsmanship.' Maybe he likes Judy Nathan so much because they wear the same shoe size, who knows?

And frankly, I don't care what people wear, so long as they cover the parts that have potential to stain the furniture, out of simple common politeness. They can paint their faces, tattoo their heads or anything else they choose, dye their hair pink, pierce anything and everything, who gives a damn.

It's all just a sad cry to be NOTICED, to stand out, to be special, at the end of the day.

I'm sure as hell not the fashion police in my old age.

Rudy's costumes aren't what bug me about him--frankly, he makes a better looking woman than he does a man; his lousy leadership style and abrupt, rude and intolerant nature are what I find problematic.

[hedgehog]

7. Your mention of him reminded me of her because they were

contemporaries. I think of Milton Berle and Lucille Ball both as depicting a certain caricature of women as foolish second rate versions of men. He did it by dressing up. She did it by playing a woamn who behaved foolishly. It was acceptable in the 50's, but I don't think it would be now. I mentioned black face because no one ever worn black face in an effort to compliment African Americans and I see both these comedians as having performied a minstrel show version of femininity. As I indicate below in other posts, not every man who dresses as a woman is attacking women. Some are doing it out of admiration, some are exploring gender roles. When I see Rudy all dolled up, I see a powerful man engaging in a caricature of females that is meant to denigrate them. The point is that I am disgusted by his drag performances not because he is a cross dresser, not because I think it proves he's gay but because I think it betrays a contempt for women.

By the way - you are right about Lucille Ball being an astute business woman off-stage. She had some connection to the original Star Trek series and must have made a mint off of the syndication rights!

[MADem]

8. Well, like I said, you're getting different mileage on this entirely.

I just do not see it, and I do not buy it. I think Lucy was an accurate representation of the idealized everyday, average woman of the day, with a comedic twist. She was ENVIED, in fact, because she had the handsome, glamorous husband, who always forgave her her screwups, she had a wonderful galpal, she had more adventures than the average housewife, and she had the nicest furniture in the post-war era.

Back in the old days, women did get an "allowance" from men, it was men who brought home the bacon, the roles were very clearly defined (he works, she cleans the house, raises the children, and strives to look like June Cleaver to the extent possible), and by and large these roles were not questioned or challenged. It was a different era, one that required women to be happy and fulfilled at hearth and home, because that was their 'job,'--a concept that Betty Freidan put her finger on and challenged with her wonderful book in the early sixties. Women were rarely paid the same as men for the same work (a widow with kids might catch a break) because (male) employers would say, to a woman's face, and with no apologies, that the MAN needed the salary more because he had a family to support. In fact, even when women worked because the family NEEDED the paycheck, it was always dismissed as a "little job for 'pin money' you see" even if it paid the heat and light bills, half the rent and put food on the table. Back then, they were only starting to allow MARRIED teachers to stay on the job, and if they got pregnant, well, forget it--they were out of work.

I think you're projecting today's standards on yesterday's comedy. It's unfair to Lucy, IMO, and it's an inaccurate representation of her work in the context of the era.

There's a great article I've seen, but cannot find now, that was published in a mid 20th century magazine that discussed, without any irony whatsoever, the duties of a good wife. It talked about getting dinner on the table on time, not complaining to the husband when he got home, having the pipe and slippers ready, putting on makeup, getting the children out of the way--it was a total hoot, and astounding to this century's young people, it was completely serious.

That's Lucy's era.

Like Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I'm no expert on cross dressing, but from what I saw in that NBC special, it has absolutely nothing to do with being gay. According to the special, that's a common misconception. In fact, all the cross dressers profiled were heterosexual, and some were in happy marriages and had kids.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. I got a sinkin' fillin' you just don't like him.......

>>>developing, with her (philandering and drunken) husband, the three camera system that is STILL in use today, and setting up a powerhouse studio, in addition to starring in films. It wasn't easy for her--she battled stereotypes in every aspect of her business life, and she had to put up with a weak, unreliable, cheating and disrespecting partner, too.>>>>

Lesseee, that's philandering, drunken, weak, unreliable, cheating and disrespecting.

Ya got everything in there but the Lindbergh baby and the Kennedy assasination!

[MADem]

10. You obviously know nothing of the pain Desi causedLuci.

He broke her heart. He was a drunk, he fucked around, he lied to her, again and again, and she forgave him, again and again. Her divorce from him was an act of self-preservation. When she remarried, she did so to a nice, safe (also younger, as was Desi) guy who adored her more than she adored him, but her greatest sadness was the fact that her marriage with Desi was such a cause of abject misery, because she really did care for the guy and bent over backward to make the relationship work.

So, no famous baby, no political assassination--just plain, simple facts. He did behave in precisely that fashion. It's a matter of record. You can look it up in a dozen or more books on the subject.

Arnaz's marriage with Ball began to collapse under the strain of his serious problems with alcohol, drugs, and womanizing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi_Arnaz

She alluded to the pain he caused her in interviews. They remained "friends" until he died, but he was a cause of great sadness to her.

[zbdent]

3. Rudy-Judy-Judy-Rudy

[One_Life_To_Give]

4. Most crossdressers do it

As a group crossdressers exaggerate alot of characteristics that many women don't identify with. Your talking about a group of guys that think the Corset is one of the best garmets ever and an absolute must have for the well dressed crossdresser. Not to mention heels of not less than 4in and never wear pantyhose when you could wear seamed stockings and garterbelt.

Helen Boyd puts it nicely in her book "My Husband Betty". Cross dressers persue their idea of what it is to be female. Which is not the same as what women think it is to be female. They have there own view which in part is from a male perspective.

[hedgehog]

5. Again, not every man in woman's clothing is expressing the same attitude.

Imitation can be the sincerest form of flattery, but Rudy's behavior is hardly admiring or flattering to women.