Most gay people WANT to assimilate into society

[Brian_Expat]

Figured I'd hit another hot button issue because these issues need to be discussed.

I am advancing the corollary that individuals in the gay community who are radical sexual liberationists and decry monogamy, marriage, family life and being faithful to one's partner are a tiny minority -- much smaller than their voice.

I am further arguing that most gay people want a place at the table equal to heterosexuals, not living a life of "complete radical sexual liberation from the mainstream." Ergo, gay marriage rights are more important to a majority of the community than, say, the "right" to have sex with a stranger in a public park at night.

What say you?

[Meldread]

1. I agree.

Gay people, and especially myself personally, want generally the same things straight people want. They want to get married, settle down, and maybe have kids. (Although it might be closer to a 25%/75% split on that.)

I'm one of those people. I don't look down on those who are as you put it, "radical sexual liberationists" but I certainly don't feel that having over 100 sexual partners is healthy. That doesn't even mention how easily that plays into the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. (I WILL look down on you if you are pressuring other people into not using protection. That is just irresponsible and everyone should know better. If you do that, Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame on you!)

I think the promiscuous group seems to be the "vocal minority" because that is how gay people are generally perceived by straights. It's a stereotype, and like many stereotypes ("<Insert Ethnic Minority here> are dirty people, like to steal, all drug addicts, all on welfare, or all thieves, etc. etc.") it isn't true. Sure, there might be black people on welfare just as there are certainly gay males who would screw anything with a pulse, but the same thing can be said for straight white people as well. It's a stereo type and nothing more.

We don't have to do anything to fit into the mainstream, because we ARE the mainstream. We just happen to sleep with someone of the same sex. I really don't know any gay person who has special desires that heterosexuals don't also want. There are gay people in every aspect of America -- from the far Christian Right to the Greens and to the Socialist Party. There is one gay person in at least every small town all across America. We're everywhere, and do everything, some of us are out and some of us are in. But we're everywhere.

[xchrom]

2. well, humans get themselves up to

all kinds of behavior.
people you describe as monogamous often aren't.
gay men{to be specific} have been more open about varied sexual behavior -- because it's the sex{supposedly} that keeps us discriminated against. monogamous or not.

gay men embraced their sexuality and brought it out into the open.
you are describing non-monogamy as though it's bad -- ala conservatives with a gay twist.
why go there?

my brothers and sisters whatever their choice for themselves are all fine.

i've never been monogamous -- i'm not into it -- and i've had many wonderful, delicious affairs.
i'm not interested in making value judgements on folk who choose monogamy/traditional relationships -- there's not enough time in the day to think about it too much.
i would hope the same within the community would be returned.
isn't that what makes the glbtq community something different from the straight world?

[Brian_Expat]

3. Not quite in agreement with you

you are describing non-monogamy as though it's bad

I'm describing it as a legitimate choice -- and in fact, the mainstream one.

Most of the time when monogamy is mentioned in "liberated" gay circles, there's a snort of derision and the individual in question is accused of "aping the straights." That has little to do with reality since straights are just as capable of promiscuity.

I think that being faithful to one's partner is a desire that grows out of love and respect for them rather than out of "assimilation."

isn't that what makes the glbtq community something different from the straight world?

My experience is that the glbtq community is no more welcoming, happy, affirming or accepting than society at large. Any gay person of colour, foreign origin, religious/spiritual belief, rural background, or lower socio-economic status would confirm that.

There's nothing lonelier than realizing that not only does straight society reject you, but much of gay society does too because you are monogamous, or have a spirituality/faith, or are the wrong skin colour, or don't wear the "right" fashions and drive the right car, or live in the right neighbourhood, or know the right people, etc.

[xchrom]

6. i don't disagree that monogamy is the stated choice

and monogamists deride others as much as nonmonogamists do.
attitude is not the point.

unless i'm missing something.

your last paragragh confuses me -- i'm not lonely because of what other people accept or reject about me.

i'm lonely cause i don't like the company when i'm by my self -- now that's sad.

and not what i experience in this world.
if someone or some people{and there have been plenty in my time} don't care for my company -- hey i shake the dust off my shoes and find those who enjoy and love me.
and there have been plenty of those.

there are many ways to love.
and i'm for most of them.
if someone wants to assimilate -- go for it.
make YOURSELF happy.
from birth to grave -- that is just about the most important business you will conduct.

[Meldread]

4. Of course, it is returned.

At least from me. Although I'm curious so I have to ask... don't you ever want to settle down? It's odd, maybe I was programmed this way, but I just can't imagine myself -not- wanting a committed monogamous relationship. I'm a bit of a prude, I guess and maybe a bit old fashioned (although I'm probably too young to be old fashioned).

It's odd. I've never quite understood it, but I want to settle down with a single partner, get married and have kids. (One way or another.) It's something that I feel is very important, especially children, that I might not even consider continuing a relationship if they made it clear that they despise children and would never want any. I want a family, I even long for it... I just find it odd that as a gay male I'm longing to have children.

It's also odd that I'm the most liberal person I know (outside of these boards) and yet I live a more conservative lifestyle than most conservatives do. I joked about that with my mother, and she's the same way (just not as liberal). She said we're just backward. :silly:

[xchrom]

5. i am settled down

just not monogamous.
i've had many wonderful affairs with many different people...
some of my best ones have been with married atraight people.

and that gets to the heart of what i'm talking about -- ''monogamous people'' often aren't.

we all set ourselves up for a notion of behavior that doesn't always reflect reality --
but life is short and i want to love freely those whom i love.
i can't be all things, in the sack or out, to any one person.
my lovers can't hurt me by sexually being with someone else or by loving more than one person at a time.

that's just me.

but my experience tells me that regardless of societies packaging -- there are a lot of people like me in the world.

gay people have more openly embraced different definitions for relationship than the straight world.
but the straight world has probably experimented as much -- without the advertising.

[dsc]

7. Do the wives know?

I am willing to bet that a significant percentage of the wives of the straight men you have had affairs with assume their men are being monogamous. What you chose to do in your relationships is one thing. But what you are doing to those women is just plain wrong.

[xchrom]

8. don't feel that way

and you make my point for me...
when it comes to love and sex -- nothing or little is as it seems.
that's just being human.

i simply choose not to boil in oil anybody over their choices about what they do with their bodies.
that is personal.

you are correct about your assumptions.
i simply don't care about what you think of it's rightness or wrongness.
i'm not saying that out of anger -- it has no echo within me -- that's all.

[Meldread]

17. This is interesting...

This is almost an alien way of looking at things for me. I can see what you are saying, and yet it seems at the heart of it we both value different things. For me sex is never really the issue, as long as I was allowed to masturbate I would feel little need for sex, I value the companionship, the emotional support, the strength that I draw from someone that I love and am extremely close to. The sexual side of a relationship, while I feel it is important, isn't at the top of my list. Sex is good, but sex isn't everything. (Of course, that isn't to imply that you are a mad crazed sex fiend. Just that you seem to put a slightly higher priority on sex than I do, at least that is the way I am understanding it.)

You are correct, of course, that some people who profess monogamy often aren't monogamous. Although on that same token, I don't believe most people who want monogamy actively go out and seek to cheat on their partner. Everyone makes mistakes, it just takes maturity and wisdom to admit them and together (in the relationship) overcome them.

To me, I can see how this would be easier, but on the same token I would also feel as if the relationship were somehow less valuable.

It is odd. I can see what you are saying to a degree, but the thoughts and concepts are completely alien to my mind. I find it interesting, though I could never see myself acting (or even wanting to act) in such away.

[xchrom]

21. i'm just saying i've loved different people in different ways.

i've loved more than one person at a time, i've loved someone while they were in a relationship with some one else, etc.

and i've loved someone one on one.
they have all been good and bad for different reasons.

but i will always BE glad that i have had the opportunity to explore relationships from all the angles that i have{uh, there's a joke in there}

and that i'm not unique -- there are others out there like me.

[demnan]

9. All the gay people I know are assimilated into society

whatever that means. In other words, they hold jobs, have both gay and straight friends and don't dress any differently than anyone else.

[Technowitch]

10. I have a same-sex wife.

And not only do I plan to spend the rest of my life with her--barring accident, illness, or injury--but I want the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities we'd have towards one another if we didn't have matching pairs of X chromosomes.

Think about it. If either of us (but not both) happened to have a Y chromosome, we could zip off to Vegas and be legally and permanently wed before the day was out.

Here, even in so-called liberal California, we could be together for decades and it wouldn't matter.

Now, mind you, the Domestic Partnership laws here a tremendous improvement over nothing at all -- or Virginia's outright bigotry and antagonism towards people like us. But we still lack equal status with the heteros. We lose out on the tax codes. We still can't inherit, tax-free. Neither of us can participate in the other's pension. Were either of us anything but self-employed, an employer would be free to deny health insurance to our spouse.

Even those rights we do have here, the rad-cons are working hard to overturn.

I've no idea if the 'radical sexual liberationists' are a large proportion of the GLBT community. All I do know is I'd like to marry my wife, have the government recognize it, and have it stick.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Why do I get the feeling you recently read "After the Ball"?

Not that I totally disagree with some of your points, but this sounds remarkably familiar.

[Brian_Expat]

14. I haven't read that book

Although I think the theme I'm advancing isn't a new one.

[Liberal Veteran]

16. I think there is something you need to examine.

The fact is that the mainstream fight has ALWAYS been about equality, pure and simple.

I am seeing a pattern in your posts that you tend see the broader gay community in general as hostile to what you consider appropriate or good. In that sense I think there is a subtext of embarrassment at being associated with things you don't necessarily agree with. All this talk of leathermen, watersports, anti-theism, and sexual liberation seems to be coming from a place I don't really see as anything more subcultures in the broader community.

Hell, I don't particularly understand certain subcultures or attitudes within the gay community, but I think we need to separate what is destructive from that which is just uncomfortable or something we "aren't into" such as leather, drag, or goth.

For example, I will NEVER support irresponsible sexual behavior that ignores the risks of disease. Barebacking and the small subculture that is into "bug chasing" are engaging in self-destructive behavior and think supporting that would be counterproductive to our entire community and causes us to divert resources to make up for it. Having caught HIV from a cheating lover and burying many friends in the 80's and 90's due to AIDS, I have no desire to go through that period again. That kind of thing I think as a community we can discourage.

On the other hand, I am not really bothered by things that I may not understand or agree with myself yet I still feel kinship because at the base we all want the same thing: Equality. If you are into the god scene, the leather scene, the bachelor scene, the drag scene, the monogamy scene....it doesn't matter to me. We are united in purpose and that is what is important to me.

That is how I see things. Let's not dwell on minutia to divide us.

[Stepup2]

20. I'll second that

re the post pattern

[Brian_Expat]

24. Not in agreement with you AT ALL

I am seeing a pattern in your posts that you tend see the broader gay community in general as hostile to what you consider appropriate or good.

No, I see the broader gay community as being more diverse than what you're claiming we represent.

You seek a gay community where everyone's an atheist who lauds watersports and whatnot. I prefer a broader gay community where individuals who are religious aren't berated as "superstitious," and where people who choose monogamy over circuit parties aren't derided as "aping breeders."

If you are into the god scene, the leather scene, the bachelor scene, the drag scene, the monogamy scene....it doesn't matter to me.

But that's not really true. If you're not young, hot, atheist, urban and white, you don't have a real place in the "gay community" that's popped up in most of the urban areas of the United States.

It's much better in Britain that way -- far less of a need for "liberationists" to deride others as "aping heteros" and complaining that "too many resources are going towards gay marriage," etc.

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Let me disabuse you of some very BAD assumptions you made.

First a bit about me:

1) I am not an athiest, I am agnostic. If you don't know the difference, you need to look it up.

2) I have been in a monogamous relationship for almost 15 years.

3) I don't do the bar scene or the gay pride parade thing. In fact, I haven't set foot in a gay bar in well over a decade.

4) I am a homebody who feels more at ease with myself, my partner, and a few friends doing things like going to movies, gardening, or spending a day on the lake or taking care of my yard, working on my home, or just relaxing with a good book and my cats.

5) I want nothing more than grow old with my lifepartner (hopefully married legally) and retire to a trailer far from any large city in desert southwest (New Mexico to be exact) where I can live out my life doing things I enjoy including taking full advantage of my telescopes to examine every object I can in the night sky.

You made some really bad assumptions about me and I am determined to disabuse you of them. You also have a chip on your shoulder about the gay community in general.

I see a gay community where there is room for all. I have never been excluded, nor excluded ANYONE in the gay community when it comes to fighting for equality.

You are painting the entire community with a broad brush that I haven't experienced. Two gay couples that I consider close friends and generally associate with are a couple that has been together over 20 years and another couple who are both in their late 60's and have been together for over 40 years. I have never heard any of them say they felt "excluded" from the gay community.

If you getting that impression, then perhaps you need to re-examine the circles you are associating with.

Gay people represent the entire spectrum of humanity. Race, age, cultural background, social status, looks, health, and even politics and religion.

And truth to tell, some gay (as with straights) are stuck up and shallow and there are some that are the salt of the earth. In the final analysis, we are just people like everyone else with all the warts and blemishes you will find in heterosexual society.

If you are hanging with people who you see as shallow or exclusionary, then that's YOUR FAULT. You have control over your life and who you allow to be a part of your day to day life.

What you see as the "gay community", I see as something different. Most gay people don't live in urban "gay ghettos". Those that do are making a choice of the kind of life and community they want to live in.

From the way I see it, it seems that you are deliberately placing yourself in situations that aren't to your liking and then blaming everyone else for not conforming to what you want.

Or look at straight people. It's no different. You aren't likely to feel comfortable if you are Southern Baptist Fundie and you go out to the local strip clubs and swingers clubs. Nor would you expect to. You shouldn't go to church and expect everyone there to have a big S&M orgy either. You shouldn't expect to find squaredancing at the local goth bar. And you shouldn't expect a prayer service at a rave.

Be who you want to be. It's your life and you have to live it. That's what I do, and I expect the same from you.

The ONLY THING I ask from you is that you stand by side with me in fighting for equality under the law and I'll do the same for you.

Everything else you mention is minutia and matter of your own personal choices. I am mature enough to know myself and know what kind of life I want to have and I work for that and place myself in situations that make it happen. I don't feel any compelling need to tell other gay people how to live, who they should associate with, and what kind of belief system they must have.

Live your life on YOUR terms and allow others to do the same. Ultimately the broader gay community is NOT responsible for validating how you choose to live your life.

And yes, you do see your own value set and lifestyle as superior to those in the urban community that you are railing against. It shows in your posts. And for you, it is. However, It's not your place to decide for others how to live their lives. Do what YOU enjoy. Hang out with people who share your interests and values. I don't hang out with people who party all the time or do drugs or don't respect the boundaries of my relationship or aren't kind to other people. I am more than capable of showing someone the door of my home if they cross the line and I'll still walk side by side with them to fight for equal rights.

I don't feel compelled to change others to suit me and that, my friend is where we differ. You sound like you blame the gay community for being human. Humans have cliques, social circles, and all the various different desires you see everyday.

And a word of advice here: Jesus Christ said a lot of wise things. Among those things was "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

He didn't tell his disciples to persist and try to force people into their way of thinking or force them to welcome them.

[Duncan Grant]

12. My suggestion? "I" statements.

<I am further arguing that I want a place at the table equal to heterosexuals, not living a life of "complete radical sexual liberation from the mainstream." Ergo, gay marriage rights are more important to me than, say, the "right" to have sex with a stranger in a public park at night.>

Does "complete radical sexual liberation from the mainstream" really equal the "right" to have sex with a stranger in a public park at night? I would say categorically: no.

I have a few other questions, too. Who's privilege is it to define, "complete radical sexual liberation"? What is "radical sexuality"?

If assimilation or gaining equality is at the expense of others - I'm not sure it's worth having. Personally, I don't advocate for assimilation but I can understand it's appeal. Just my .02 cents. :hi:

[Langley85]

13. Why separate categories?

I don't consider myself any different from anyone else in any meaningful way.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. not sure I completely agree

I think you raise some interesting issues. I will only speak for myself and my observations. You may be right that there are more gay folks out there who wish for "marriage" but they are usually already coupled and rarely hit the bar scene. Therefore, I feel the perception, even by gay people, is skewed to the idea that we are all party people and have no desire to "conform."

However, I don't feel the "radical liberationists" are really the issue. The real issue is people's hang-ups about sexuality, both the gay and straight communities. I think is exemplified in your comment; "Ergo, gay marriage rights are more important to a majority of the community than, say, the "right" to have sex with a stranger in a public park at night." The assumption is that people who do not enjoy/desire monogamy are over-sexed, looking for sex in risky places, or are not interested in sexual encounters with people they know. I don't know that is very accurate. I see a difference between sexual monogamy and emotional monogamy. It really comes down to communication. If sexual monogamy is non-negotiable, then that needs to be upfront. Some set rules and others do not allow "straying." Do not fall into the trap that non-monogamy makes a person "morally deficient" or uninterested in the advancement of the gay community, as a whole.

Sexuality and sexual desires come in a range; I think we, as a race (human), need to reevaluate our issues with sexuality and the hang-ups we have with it.

[sundog]

18. I don't like the word assimilate.

It reminds me of the "assimilation of the savages" or something. The very word implies that something different will conform do a more accepted norm.

This aside, your point is well taken.

I would agree that monogamy/marriage is the key issue for most of us.

I personally have deeper questions relating to whether true happiness lies in partnership, or we have been conditioned to believe that it is the only key to a complete life.

Of course sexuality is deeply tied to morality... with promiscuity equating evil & monogamy equating good.

Monogamy & marriage predicate a "morally sound" culture. I really don't know of any cultures which have asserted anything contrary.

So are we saying "yes, we will be this" simply to assimilate, or is the need for a solid partnership inherent human nature? I don't know.

All moral arguments & personal questions aside, we exist in a culture of morality. Nothing will change that. This being the case, I think gay marriage is the only true essential issue that should be undertaken.

Gaining equality in the core "moral" institution of the mainstream is the only way to progress & develop the wholeness of the culture. That is what I believe.

If any of this doesn't make sense, don't mind me... I'm thinking aloud. :)

[Meldread]

19. I agree, although....

I believe marriage should be in the forefront of our battles. Once we are able to obtain that, then everything else will fall into place. However, we cannot forget anti-discrimination laws. The ability to fire someone simply because they are gay still exists in many States. The ability to deny gays medical assistance also exists.

Once we have overcome those hurdles tolerance and acceptance will come in time.

[freestyle]

22. I say, as June Jordan did, "freedom is indivisible"

I agree with your assessment of the numbers, but disagree with the subtext (and this may not be your view) that it is acceptable to throw the radicals under the bus to get what most gay people want. I want to live in a free society, and if my freedom to marry means people whose non-harmful desires are different are suppressed then that freedom is quite illusory.

In the same vein, I am really turned off by folks who are willing to sacrifice people with different gender identity to pass antidiscrimination laws that only include sexual orientation. We should not engage in the disempowerment that comes from giving in to divide and conquer. I want a table big enough for all of us in the myriad manifestations of our beautiful humanity. Everyone should have plenty good room.

[Maven]

23. No, we don't all want to wear khakis and go to PTA meetings.

Then again, neither do many straights any more. In fact, if you live in a big city, you'll notice that the settle-down-with-kids imperative is becoming more and more irrelevant to boy-girl couples. One might say there's been a "queering" of heterosexuality in the city. That's another issue, though.

Although I'm only 23--and I only have one relationship at a time--I doubt that I'll ever spend my entire life with one person. (Hmm. Then again, neither do many straights anymore.) The association between "good" or "healthy" sexual behavior and lifelong monogamy is a social construction, pure and simple--and an increasingly outmoded one. I support marriage equality because of its legal significance to many other members of the community, and, let's face it, because I resent the downgraded status that comes with being denied the option. Realize, however, that the desire to marry and share benefits privately--rather than providing benefits collectively to individuals--is a classically conservative impulse. From a cultural standpoint, it also gives rise to the sort of socially conservative moral binary expressed by Brian's post. Once the right to marry is gained, will there be monogamous demagogues within our community who shun those with a more progressive view of sexuality? Not all of us want to have sex with 10 people at once, Brian. But not all of us are picking out baby names, either. I just hope that once the latter group gets what they want, they don't disavow those members of the former group who helped them achieve it.

In short, always evaluate your goals to make sure they really mean progress.

[KnowerOfLogic]

25. Who are you trying to convince? Where is the argument here? nt