You are responsible for the prejudice directed toward me.

[Duncan Grant]

(Warning: Sarcasm alert)

All of you GLBT people who don't accept my self-righteous definition of gay identity/culture/community are just pissing me off.

Why can't you accept my criticism and change your misguided ways? I'm tired of my superior gay identity being trivialized by your inferior gay identity.

All of you drag queens, muscle queens, rice queens, bath house queens, bear queens, straight-acting queens, public sex queens, f-t-m or m-t-f queens, bisexual queens, leather queens, drama queens, dykes-on-bikes queens, lip-stick or butch queens, chicken hawk queens and religion hating queens are oppressing me. You are responsible for the prejudice directed toward me. Stop it.

My idea of gay community is much more diverse than yours. And my gay community is easier for other people to accept, too. It's certainly easier for me to accept because if you'll notice, I have no internal bigotry or prejudice.

(dripping sarcasm/off)

Why is it that an LGBT person can engage in a journey of self-acceptance (which culminates in some form of 'coming out') only then to regard others who identify as LGBT with vicious contempt? In other words: I accept myself but I don't accept you. This is among the cruelest ironies that I know.

Do you have contempt for other LGBT people who live lives radically different than your own? Just how broad or narrow is gay community/culture? :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Im not so sure I have contempt for them so much as the characature

of them and the degree to which it is used to DEFINE me.

Case in point, straight people participate in "lifestyles" activities but NOT all straight people get defined by this.
However, a few years ago, at a gay pride festival, I saw gay parents walking down the road with their kids and in the same stretch, saw a guy dressed in a rubber with his shlang wagging and wearing a chain and a G string...and said to myself, "I don't know if I am proud of THIS."

Is that homophobic? :shrug:

Again, that person doing that in a BAR wouldn't bother me..but at an all inclusive festival it did and I felt somehow DEFINED by it when the local NEWS latched onto the guy.

[Duncan Grant]

3. Now that would be a conversation worth having.

I think you've raised a more interesting question than I did. How am I being defined by the "lifestyle activities" of others?

Of course, there are external media/fundies/etc. who have an agenda against GLBT people and use the shlang wagging guy for their own purposes. It's not like there's an LGBT cultural institution that takes straight people to task for every inappropriate action of one of "theirs". (You made that point, btw.)

I don't think you're homophobic because of the poor judgment exercised by condom man anymore than you'd be hetero-phobic by the sock clad shlang adventures of the Red Hot Chili Peppers (who I love, btw).

One distinction I am trying to illuminate though is what I perceive as the arrogant dismissal of GLBT people by GLBT people who live lives not like "our" own.

Personally, I don't support condom fashion shows unless it's a private party. I support culturally appropriate public behavior in what ever corner of the world I may find myself.

Thanks for raising this point. It's important. :hi: :thumbsup:

[Misunderestimator]

20. Funny thing is... you said you didn't raise that issue, but it's the first

thought I had as well when reading your OP. NSMA and I had a talk about this a couple of weeks ago. I would blame the condom wang guy for lacking discretion, but in the end, it's not his responsibility to define any of us... so it is the media and society's apparent homophobia and fascination with the more flamboyant elements of our community that defines us, and that angers me no end.

:hi:

[Duncan Grant]

27. I hadn't thought about the more "in-your-face" public behavior.

If gay people were interested in the more bizarre antics of straight people, I'm sure a market would be created for it. I suspect part of the fascination with the "hey-look-at-my-private-parts" guy drives the economic wheels of various 'conservative' interests.

Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and the rest of the heretical crew make lots of money off the more flamboyant attendees at LGBTIQ events. We're talking BIG money. That's how I explain it to myself; to them, homophobia is very profitable.

(Actually, I was thinking on a much smaller scale than you and nsma when I posted this. I'm selfishly reminding people to generate more light and less heat - here and in other places - about the LGBTIQ experience. :hi: )

[Brian_Expat]

6. Yep, that would be "homophobic" to some

in the same stretch, saw a guy dressed in a rubber with his shlang wagging and wearing a chain and a G string...and said to myself, "I don't know if I am proud of THIS."

And you'd encounter the same guy in a gay rights debate later, arguing that the fact you might want to get married is "destroying the gay rights movement" because "homosexuality is all about having no sexual boundaries" and you're "destroying the movement by trying to ape the heteros."

Such is the cost of being in a diverse movement. You'll have intelligentsia who will try and shut you up and silence you because you don't meet their utopian dreams for the future. ;)

[terrya]

2. Oh, I hate to say this....

But when I came out, lo these many years ago, and discovered others like me...I was so...contemptuous of drag queens. Of that whole subculture. I was...embarrassed about them. Embarrassed that they were a part of the gay community. I thought that they would make us "look bad". I didn't want to acknowledge them as part of "my community"

It's so...shameful to admit it now. My take on drag queens have evolved. Come on...there isn't one defined ideal of being heterosexual...why should there be for the LGBT community?

And to the drag queens here and out there...I apologize for my stupid, bigoted feelings about you in the past.

T

[Duncan Grant]

4. 20 years ago, I had a similar experience.

Mine went something like this: If 'those' drag queens would just tone it down a little, the right wing wouldn't get so upset and then 'we' could finally move forward. The drag queens are an embarrassment to 'our' movement! ( :eyes: Get over yourself, 9_S_F )

I'm not proud of it now but it was part of my early coming out experience.

:pals:

[Redleg]

5. Yes, but isn't there a some truth in the idea that the more

"bizarre" people make themselves look (in respect to other people), the more likely other people will dismiss them as freaks? People assume that superficial (i.e., clothing, hair length) differences between people are underlied by differences in values. The assumption that a group of people have different values often leads to the judgment that their values are inferior to your own.

[Duncan Grant]

7. I believe tension will exist as long as my judgments and values

are only self-affirming. A lot of my superiority trips (you're a freak, you're bizarre) dissipate when I can have some empathy for people who aren't exactly like me.

It's not like conformity equalizes the values/judgments scale in any way. Humans seem to find the most ridiculous things to differentiate themselves from others. I'm suggesting that LGBT people can do it with less contempt and more empathy. :hi:

[Brian_Expat]

8. I just see things as. . .

. . . a clash of values of people who are busy telling you "who you should be to be gay."

There are precious few individuals in the American gay movement who affirm people being who and what they are. Instead, you must conform to SOME category -- bear/twink, etc.

[Duncan Grant]

9. You should be who you want to be.

I'm against labeling people or sorting them into categories. Why conform to some idealized version of what gay men (or LGBT people) should be?

I don't mean to insult your intelligence (or patronize you in any way) but does the clash of values you speak of have more to do with 'gay cultural mores' (magazines, movies, clubs, bars, fairs, etc.) or are individuals pressuring you to be something you're not?

In other words, who are the people telling you what your identity should be? Is there anything that can be done about it?

[Brian_Expat]

12. Hmmmm. . .

I don't mean to insult your intelligence (or patronize you in any way) but does the clash of values you speak of have more to do with 'gay cultural mores' (magazines, movies, clubs, bars, fairs, etc.) or are individuals pressuring you to be something you're not?

I guess I don't see the difference. The former is just a subset of the latter. . . social pressure is a powerful thing.

[Duncan Grant]

24. I should ask again...

<In other words, who are the people telling you what your identity should be? Is there anything that can be done about it?>

Other than whining and feeling victimized, what options are available to GLBTIQ people?

[arwalden]

32. My Feelings In 1979 Were Nearly Identical To Yours

... I was uncomfortable around and embarrassed by drag queens. But then again... I was 18/19 years old. Things have changed a lot since then... Now I adore them!

Can much of the animosity for different segments of our community be attributed to (or blamed on) someone's age... or more specifically, their youth?

[sundog]

10. ok J, my take

Personally, I feel a level of frustration at people who have bought the stereotypes that has been thrown at us.

It seems stereotypes for gay men end up in one of two corners: the flaming clown or the victim. Neither poses a threat to mainstream culture, therefore the stereotypes are continually reinforced. The clown is an airhead, the victim is castrated.

The figure of an empowered gay male does not lend itself to the "benefit" of the culture. In other words, there is no real archetype which projects a formidable level of strength. The culture fears it. Therefore, the stereotype has been played throughout generations to keep us where we belong... on the "clown" level.

Sometimes when I see people (in my mind) who have bought & modeled themselves after the existing stereotypes, I grow frustrated. It takes a great deal of work to break out of that mold & project an alternate image.

Personally, it is very important for me to strive for an altruistic state of mind. Living in a small town(as I do), everyone knows I am gay. If there is a young person out there somewhere who is going through hell as I once was, I hope I can project an alternative image to the stereotypes that the young person is being flooded with through the media.

When I was young, I didn't see one older person who existed outside the mold, therefore I had nothing to relate to or identify with. The big gay public figure at the time was Richard Simmons. That is where the subconscious mindfuck begins: *this is what gay is... this is what gay is.*

To sum it up, the frustration with some in the community exists not in "I'm pissed at what you are," but in "You bought the stereotype hook, line & sinker."

I am interested in an expansion of archetypes within the community so that we do not fall into the pigeon holes that have previously been set. There has to be an effort to make life easier for the next generation.

Hope I made some sense. :)

[Duncan Grant]

14. Archetypes are another interesting way to frame these ideas.

I couldn't agree with you more when you say that the dominant culture refuses to acknowledge 'empowered' gay men (or lesbians, bisexuals and never, - never transgendered people). Who benefits from the oppression? Not us.

If we don't benefit, why do we impose it upon our own once we come out?

The 'clown' (the 'fool' is what I call it) role is easily recognizable to me. There is one thing I love about the fool though. I think the fool gets to say things that no one else can; it's permissible for him but not others. I'm not too familiar with the castrated victim/eunuch role although there are plenty of GLBT people who suffer from social isolation (for lots of various reasons). And suddenly I'm realizing that I don't know where I'm going with this train of thought... :think:

Maybe I should just say I believe I've had a similar experience as yours. Especially, the altruistic awareness. I grew up in a small town and it would have saved me years of suffering if Freddie Mercury would have come out (or Rock Hudson, Elton John, Rob Halford, etc.).

What I'm aware of in your post is that you speak honestly about your frustration without holding others in contempt. It's an awareness of an expansive life as opposed to a repressed one. I hope I didn't misinterpret you... :D :hi:

[sundog]

15. You don't

misinterpret me... I appreciate the communication.

I was thinking of an analogy to better illustrate what I'm talking about:

Visualize an African-American man who is working 7 days a week to keep his bills paid & keep bread on the table for his family.

In his community there is also a guy who chose the "gansta" path.

Though he does not deny or discredit the existence of the gangsta, it is important for him to project something different to his young brothers & sisters who might not want to choose the gangsta path.

Of course he is a little frustrated with his gangsta brother, since the guy is ultimately perpetuating the stereotype that the media already has smacked on his forehead.

Still, he fights against that stereotype, hoping in a small way that he can lend himself to a redefinition of African-Americans.

Maybe that will clarify my thoughts a bit. :)

on edit almost forgot - Castrated gay male I was discussing in previous post: see Will. We were lounging it bout Will & Grace last week.

[Duncan Grant]

17. I think I just "got" the victim role thing.

Victim role tends to blame everyone but themselves for their "problems". It's as if victim archetype believes he/she no longer has any choice about how events affect them. They are governed by their own unique viewpoint; they see only what they want to see, whether it's true or not.

The truth is, they have a choice, they have always had a choice. They can take ownership of the events which influence their lives or they can be powerless.

Boy oh. Do I ever know people like that! :scared:

[sundog]

22. Bingo

:7

We're on the same page :hi:

[sundog]

26. another thought

I was having today...

The most dangerous aspect of the victim role is that it assumes passivism. Passivism, although having spiritual merits, allows for encroachment.

I tried to narrow down the media stereotypes/archetypes that I perceive into two major categories: the clown & the victim. That way I can analyze WHY they are perpetuated... I see these two reappearing most often. This goes back to my belief that the media will only perpetuate an archetype that is beneficial to the mainstream. Both allow for encroachment.

Anyway, I think I've gotten way off track here :P... I'm just talkin.

[foreigncorrespondent]

11. Awwww SF dahlingggg!!!!

You know this ole dyke! I accept everyone in our community apart from the LCR. I just cannot bring myself to support a group of our people who work towards getting officals elected that work against our very rights.

However (and you knew this was coming. LOL) in the lesbian community you wanna know what really pisses me off the most? It is simple. You know I am working now. In my job I see tons of people each work day. Anyway, in a lot of the stores I do security for there happens to be a lot of queers working.

Anyway, there are a few dykes. Since I started working I noticed one dyke (who works out of head office and does visit all the stores often) who just won't give me the time of day. I say hello to be nice, and it is part of the job, but this one cow will just look down at me and walk off. Hello? What the hell did I do? LOL

In another store I work at quite often there is this one real bull dyke working there. She mostly works out the back, but from time to time will come into the store section. At first this woman wouldn't give me the time of day. But lately, she has been talking to me. And she has had this certain look on her face, like she wants to bed me.

Anyway, what pisses me off is, why can't the lesbian commnunity be courteous to one another? Why is it that we don't actually begin speaking until we want to bed someone? Don't you find this strange? I certainly do. I am used to saying a G'day to people regardless of who they sleep with at night. And I am getting tired of not being acknowledged in my own community until some stupid bitch thinks she has a chance to bed me. Don't these stupid women realize they will never have that chance?

Oh and also in my line of work, I find that gay men are the most quiet. As they are leaving the store they (nine times out of ten) will have a look of shear panic on their face, like they are saying, please don't talk to me, I don't want to acknowledge you. Why is that? It can't be the uniform surely to God, because as I said to Sapph, I look like a femme in drag when I wear it. LOL

Now the reason I am talking about all this is simple, if the LGBTIQ community can't get its act together to actually be nice to one another, then how on earth do we expect to get our acts together to fight the attacks from the religious right? :shrug:

[Duncan Grant]

16. I haven't seen you forever!

HiYa fc! Do ya think you and I can solve the major questions of our day or are we doomed to a life of uninspired mediocrity and thwarted intentions? LOL! :D

Now (on a lighter note) back to the subject at hand... :silly:

The odd communication failures you mention exist among gay men, too. Who knew that 'hello' was such a high stakes game?! If it's so hard to get beyond hello, I don't know how people will ever learn real conflict resolution skills. I just try to be respectful and friendly in my day to day interactions. If someone wants to take offense where none is intended...so be it!

What is up with these panicked gay Aussie men? I couldn't begin to guess. Maybe they just bought something intimate and are in a hurry to get out of the store? That's happened to me before. :P

One final note - I agree with your observation about the religious reich and our communities. It's kind of hard to vilify the tranny who is down in the trenches with ya, isn't it? And thanks for mentioning LGBTIQ. I'm still learning... :hi: :loveya:

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Ohhhh!

I have been kinda keeping a low profile lately! Just with Sapph going back to the U.S. and work, and some other things which are stressing me out right now. But don't worry, I will be back to myself in no time. :)

Now on with the more pressing matters at hand (LOL) Darling, we can solve the questions just fine, it is trying to get the bloody community to act for themselves that will set us back. LOL

As you, I try to be respectful as well. And especially when I am working, because I am in a uniform, and during that time I am representing the company I do security work for. But I just don't understand what the problem is with the word "hello." It really amazes me just how many in community shy away from it. Do they think we are going to blurt out something along the lines of; "Oh it is so nice having 'family'around for a change". and really embarrass them? Sheesh! I am out with work mates and stuff, but I don't want the entire city and suburbs of Melbourne knowing my personal details. LOL

Yeah it is really hard to vilify those who are getting down into the dirty trenches with us. I cannot stand those who just don't give a damn shit about their own damn rights and live in a bloody dream time! I feel like slapping across the head and telling them that unless they work for their rights, they won't be bloody well getting them.

When is the community at large going to realize that if we actually banned together, we might actually achieve something positive for a change? Rather than have the religious right banning together and walking all over our very existence!

[Misunderestimator]

21. Wow. That really hasn't been my experience.

Sure, when I was young and newly "awakened" I saw every woman I met as a potential mate. (I don't think that is much different than straight people.) I grew out of that quite quickly. Are these women you describe younger than 30?

I work in an environment with VERY FEW gay people, and I've met all of them, with no sexual connotations or unfriendliness whatsoever. In fact, one woman who had just joined the company found out from a mutual gay guy friend that I was gay, and she approached me and invited me and my partner to dinner with her and her partner. We became friends until they moved away a few months later.

I get what you're saying, but not all gay women, and in my experience, very few gay women, are like that.

[foreigncorrespondent]

23. Not under 30 at all!

Most of the staff that hold management positions in the music and DVD sections of the store I do security for are over the age of 30. I am betting both are around my own age (almost 37.)

The impression I get is they don't want others to know their sexuality, and that is why the refuse to talk to someone who isn't hiding theirs. But I wanna know, how do they think they are hiding it? When the ones I am talking about are wayyyyyyyyy butch. Just the way they carry themselves and dress, it is quite obvious that they are butch lesbians.

I tend to have better friendships with lesbians online than I do in real life, and that is something I really just don't understand! I am not an ogre, so even in uniform I am quite approachable.

I dunno, maybe it is just different here in Oz? :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

25. You're probably right with the closet thing.

I don't even bother with gay people who are in the closet. They've made their choice to live secretly, I've made my choice to live honestly. It must suck to be them. :)

(And I'm not saying it's not like that elsewhere, I just haven't really experienced myself... could be just because I ignore them and don't even notice :))

It is a shame that we can't come together more cohesively. I think it's just the fact that this particular minority comprises people of all sorts of other minorities (and majorities) and ages. Hard group to get to agree... kind of like democrats.

[Meldread]

13. More interesting thoughts.

I've shied away from using the word "Lifestyle". Simply because I do not think it accurately portrays the community and has many hidden meanings behind it. The Religious Right uses the word constantly, and have painted all gay people as a group of promiscuous sex crazed fiends, drag queens who want to be the opposite sex.

The word Lifestyle doesn't even remotely reflect the gay community there is no set lifestyle that we all live by. We are just as diverse, if not more so, than our heterosexual counterparts. It feels as if when we use that word we are allowing them to define who we are as a people. They hold up examples of Rubber man (as mentioned above) and make it look as if we are all like that.

It makes me angry that people would play into those stereotypes so easily. (I honestly don't care what you do in private but keeping you dick in your pants while in public would be a nice thing to do for everyone else. I might like dick, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in seeing yours, Mr. Rubber man.)

As a child I looked up and saw things like that, and when I thought I might be gay I saw images like that and felt even more shame than I already felt. I believed that I would eventually turn out like that, because that's what I was. It seems silly but when you are young and naive you'll believe anything. I worry for children like myself, seeing those images and feeling ashamed.

The worst weakness of the gay community is our impulsiveness and lack of forethought. There seems to be a "If it feels good/fun, do it" mentality that's gotten us into so much unneeded trouble and has had untold consequences. We must all struggle to be positive role-models for young LGBT children.

(P.S. Sorry if this doesn't exactly make sense or sounds a bit off the mark I've been awake going on 42 hours.)

[Duncan Grant]

28. I appreciate your perspective!

Your comments about the religious reich and "Lifestyle" is dead on. You're right to abandon the term "lifestyle" - it's a pejorative. Makes me wonder about the implications of a "Religious Right Lifestyle" - I'll have to remember that the next time someone lays that lifestyle crap on me.

I'm not sure though if gay people are more impulsive and without forethought than straight people. America (in it's entirety) seems to be a "If it feels good/fun, do it" kind of place, imho. To me, gay people aren't really guilty of more excess than straight people (consider Las Vegas for example). My opinion is just my own, of course.

You mention that you worry for children like yourself feeling ashamed. Hope it's not a big deal if I ask but would you tell us how old you are? Thanks! :hi:

edit: spelling (again!)

[Meldread]

31. I'm not sure...

I'm not sure if I came across exactly the way I wanted in my original post. It's been a wild and rough three days with not much sleep. I apologize if I didn't get my point across exactly.

I'm currently 23 years old living in Southern Virginia, caring for my terminally ill Grandmother dying of cancer. Once she passes away and my duties here are done, I am planning to flee this state as if it were Nazi Germany. (At this point there's not much more they can do to oppress us other than opening concentration camps.)

I have to agree about the impulsiveness comment. In truth gays aren't really all that more impulsive than heterosexuals and that it's more of an undertone of the American Culture. It just feels that we are, at times, when I look around and have to ask myself "What in the hell were they thinking!?" (See Rubber man with his wang hanging out as an example.)

The word "Lifestyle", (in my opinion at least) is a word that I refrain from using in the context of LGBT people because of its negative connotations. Not to mention that it is wholly inaccurate, considering that gay people don't have a singularly defined "lifestyle" and are as diverse as heterosexual people.

You have to keep in mind where I've lived my life: Southern Virginia. When I hear the word "Lifestyle" I am hearing what the Religious Right has made the word out to mean. In essence it's a loaded "code" word that when used to define us is saying: You're promiscuous, you're a crazed sex-o-holic, you want to be a Woman (in the case of lesbians it's: You want to be a Man, and that you HATE men), and that you're likely someone who would try to harm children in one way or another. It's basically every possible bad stereotype for gay people rolled up into a single word.

I believe that we *must* portray ourselves as diverse but that we must do so with responsibility. The table should always remain big and open to everyone, be they drag queens, leather daddies, or what have you, as long as we do so with responsibility and integrity. Using Rubber man as an example above (and there are many like him) is a display of irresponsibility and lack of respect for others. Actions such as his turn many gay people off from attending such events, not to mention the fact that it plays directly into the stereotypes placed upon us. When we hold such events it should be for media attention -- placing a positive light on us. When people are irresponsible on how they behave publicly it turns away the media attention and if there is any at all focused upon it -- the focus is on someone (or a group of some ones) like Rubber man and the media will attempt to paint us all with that brush.

In essence it plays into the hands of what is being discussed above. They try and disarm us by placing us in the role of the Jester and the Fool. They don't see us as intelligent people, as equals, or even as "normal" (however loosely you wish to define that word) when a small handful are playing into every stereotype there is.

At the same time we must acknowledge the dangers of this thinking. When you begin telling someone "that's irresponsible" you are narrowing your view of what is "acceptable behavior." If taken too far it would shut out sub-cultures of the community, and our diverseness will lessen. It is walking the edge of the proverbial sword. It's a common ground that we must find when we are projecting ourselves to the public as a people deserving of equal rights. We should strive to be as inclusive as possible, as diverse as possible, without alienating other LGBT people or projecting an image that impacts upon us negatively. (This also goes into holding the media accountable when we organize public events, making certain that we are portrayed accurately and with responsibility.)

[xchrom]

19. things have already changed.

it's not just glbt -- but glbtQ.

we are always expanding and redefining who our community is -- and because we are hyper-aware, we are also hyper-critical.

we lamented, moaned, cryed, whined and just about everything else you can imagine about the inclusion of bi-sexual into our definitions.

now we include parents AND the guy with his wang hangin and bare breasted dykes on bikes.
and drag queens in heels and the list goes on.

my point is -- WELCOME TO THE HUMAN CIRCUS, ain't it grand?!?!

seriously -- it's wonderful, creative, tasteful, tasteless, chaotic, ordered and just plain old fabulous.

but really -- if people can't take the heat in the kitchen -- maybe they should stay home from the party?

it didn't take two posts before somebody felt unduly criticized by others in some way and had to return the favor.

[Duncan Grant]

29. I LOVE the human circus!

Thanks a million for posting this - I'm so loving your way of looking at all of this complexity.

This reminds me there was a time when people like us wore tasteful dresses (no pants) and sport coat and tie to the local protest march.
I'm glad we got over that strategy! :D :hi:

[xchrom]

30. i couldn't find heels

to go with the sport coat and dress:)