Can we have a discussion of minorities & homophobia without a poo flinging contest?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Yes?

Great, lets start with a premise, accusing a whole race of being bigots will not help our cause. Why? Because when people get defensive they get mean.

So lets look at what we can do holistically to cure this problem.

My first problem is that gay rights and issues have been considered a white persons problem. This is where i think we can actually fix things. We need to make sure that gay issues are considered w.out respect to race. Not just so white gays can benefit but so that black gay are no longer the most downtrodden demographic in this country.

We need to pressure directors, producers to have more black gay characters on TV. The fact that when i think of gay shows, i see only white gay people, doesn't help. Think of Queer as Folk, L-word etc. Where are the black gay boys, the black lesbians, black bisexuals and black transgendered folk?

Secondly, and I do think Obama will help with this, is improving education and economy. Now, I don't necessarily think we can do anything about this besides our continual support of liberal candidates but I do think it will pay off in the long run. Educated people tend to me more socially liberal.

In the (in)famous words of our President-Elect, when people have no economic future "...it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them". We can hope that as economic progress helps minorities, their dependence on religion will be lower.

Any ideas, thoughts etc?

[nichomachus]

1. Where are the black gay boys?

That would be Project Runway.

[amdezurik]

3. the only one I can recall was on Spin City

Carter?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. LOL! i havent seen that show. But, i do think blackness in general is lacking from TV

and gay black people are definitely lacking

[nichomachus]

11. Not on Project Runway

Women, gay men, and an occasional straight guy - for "balance." I got hooked on it by accident and now I can't stop watching.

[Chovexani]

15. that is true

The only gay black people I know of on TV are on that one snow, Noah's Ark, and that's stuck on our version of BET (if it's even on anymore).

It seems like the only time you see gay black people or LGBT of any color on primetime is as victims/suspects on Law & Order, or on Oprah's yearly "oh shit, down low!!!" pukefests.

[mitchtv]

28. Real Blood on HBO has one

Where are all the Gay Latin men?

[Maat]

2. I believe that there should be more African-Americans, Asians AND ..

Latino gays featured on television.

When a variety of gays and lesbians are featured on television, in numbers that jive with the percentage of the population that they represent, then maybe we will succeed in educating the yahoos out there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. strongly agreed

[Chovexani]

20. I think the last LGBT Latino/a I've seen on tv

Was the paramedic chick on ER all those years ago who was going out with Dr. Weaver. I can't even remember her name, how sad is that.

[mitchtv]

27. The Dr on Grey's Anatomy

she has been having and affair

[Chovexani]

30. I heard they just killed that storyline

And it wasn't even the writers, it was orders from the network. Why am I not surprised? :(

[Parche]

6. poo?

:rofl: :rofl::rofl: :hi:

[Jamastiene]

8. Hehehee,

she said poo.

:rofl:

I couldn't help channeling Beavis for a minute there. That just struck me funny. :hi:

[RethugAssKicker]

7. Blacks actors are still regulated to playing "black" roles...

for the most part.... There is much black actors need to overcome in Hollywood.
Blacks are very stereotyped by the powers to be in that industry..

So, my concern isn't to show the gay/lesbian black culture on TV... there is so much more mainstream obstacles that need to be overcome.

[Beregond2]

9. Too true; a point that was powerfully addressed in the movie "Crash."

[Chovexani]

18. Really? How do you think those mainstream obstacles get overcome?

Visibility is the key to anything and everything, whether it's being out to the people in our lives or having people like us on TV to show we're just as diverse as everyone else.

[Toasterlad]

10. Noah's Ark

A whole show ABOUT black gay guys.

But I agree that, in general, black gays are underpresented in the media. However, you could say the same thing about black people in general. Or gays, for that matter.

I think the REAL bottom line is that we can't rely on ANY population: black, white, pink, whatever, to get our fucking rights. This thing will be decided in the courts. The prevailing wisdom is that we have to wait for the rest of the country to catch up to us before that will happen. I think that's bullshit. Discriminating against gays is unconstitutional, and I think all we need to force a ruling is a leader powerful enough to force a ruling.

[bliss_eternal]

12. Um--could we vote this up, people....?

Thank you for such a thoughtful (and funny) post, lioness (she said poo....hehehe)!

We should try to vote up some of the positive stuff people are making an effort to create.

[NJPuggle]

13. Oh I am so with you on this

As a black straight female who opposed Prop 8 but lives in NJ, not CA, a black straight female who has been a close ally of the GLBT community since preteen years, fed HIV+ gay men while driving a busted-out Hyundai for Project Open Hand in Atlanta for $6 an hour and hugged and encouraged every single one of my boy loves (still miss you, Tommy honey - you fought it like a Disney villainess, darling), a black straight female who has talked her gay male agent out of suicide more than 12 times since 1990 and fed and clothed him, who has talked her gay male former employer out of suicide twice, including the time he didn't get the Oscar nom for a good film he made, as a black straight female who said nothing when a white lesbian fired me after I told her I was straight and not able to return her crush on me when she announced it, who did nothing when the same woman then character assassinated me to all my friends, who did nothing when another lesbian stalked me within an inch of my life, then did the same character assassin thing - when I could have taken these events and accused all gays of being racist (WTF? Because of a few sad human beings who accidentally happened to be gay? Never!) - as a black straight female who sings Broadway songs with the boy geishas of Marie's in Greenwich Village almost every Friday night, I am so with you on this...

... and saddened that once again, "the easy to discriminate against minority", that patient, dependable mule among minorities who won't kick back like the Latinos probably would if openly blamed, we blacks are the easy bad guy.

I am a newbie, but I am black, and I have to say this:

I am certain blacks do not hate the GLBT community. When you get in the street, down home with black people, there is an astonishing level of comradeship between us and GLBTs. Black musicians and music directors have been a protected mainstay in black churches. Black drag queens are adored even by the children; anyone identified by the local community as having harmed "Popcorn", as my childhood home's most spectacular black drag queen called herself, would have been MURDERED THAT NIGHT, and by several black heterosexual men. The reason blacks voted for Prop 8 was revenge. Stupid, but plain and simple. The assorted stupid reasons are below.

Blacks see ourselves as having always supported the gays and lesbians among our own. White gays on the other hand are seen as outsiders. As:

a) Affluent, desired in neighborhoods because they transform them and lift real estate value
b) "In control of" a media that ridicules blacks
c) Too fond of adopting and using black sayings and creative ideas without crediting them ("You go, girl" being one of the most popular recent ones - black women invented the phrase, not white gay males - and black women all know and are still smarting from it. No gay offense was meant, but.)
d) Discriminatory towards black gays and lesbians, who continue to earn less than white ones
e) Insensitive to the black wish that the gay community cease comparing its struggle to the black struggle. Reasonable or not, blacks as a whole consider this insulting - and have begged the GLBT community for years to stop. It has not. Yet gays do not widely use the Holocaust as a comparison; and blacks believe gays fear Jewish community activism and immediate, effective, damning worldwide reprisal therefrom if gays ever did so.

I don't agree with the above community suspicions and beliefs. I'm just verbalizing them because I know they exist and I think they need to be heard and known, out loud; and until the GLBT community becomes sensitive to what is considered hurtful by a population they clearly underestimated the voting power of, and begins a dialogue where it listens to black people as much as it speaks to them, any alliance between white GLBTs and black straights will remain about as workable as most heterosexual marriages are - fraught with "he saids", "she saids", "he just doesn't listens" and "she doesn't care about me's" - and fated for estrangement and all-out war.

Pro-gay blacks like myself are available to assist with that dialogue - and God knows I want to, because this issue means so much to me - I have friends who ARE married yet can't call themselves married, and they BELONG together, and you see it in their eyes and energy - like that look in my friend Elois's eyes when her wife walks out of the room for even a moment... we want to help, and we're crying out to white GLBTs please listen, do not succumb to hatred, open up to the confused, bewildered, tangled shaft of light that may be opening here...

The passing of Proposition 8 is opening a sliver of light and putting the spotlight on blacks like myself who can speak both languages and bring both minorities together at last. Attacking me and others trying to bring in the light is only going to bring more darkness. Give peace a chance and point me where to stand to begin talking in public.

Gays are the original blacks and blacks are the original gays.

Don't lose this moment.

Girls, let's straighten this bitch out TOGETHER.

:grouphug:

[lightningandsnow]

14. Awesome post.

Welcome to DU!

:hug:

[NJPuggle]

21. Thank you :)

I have tears in my eyes right now. :hi:

[Chovexani]

17. Oh Jesus your post just made me cry

And I'm not even exaggerating. I wish I had somebody like you growing up. Damn, I wish I had somebody like you right now. I really do.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! And welcome to DU, we are so happy to have you here.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

PM me if you ever want to talk (it's that little envelope next to my name).

[NJPuggle]

22. You know what "ferociousness" is?

Something black folks and gay folks got in common. We can beat this together, and you know what? We will. We will we will we WILL.

Don't worry about the past, girl, you got me now. I'm in your corner and will ever be. I've been lurking on DU for years and watching Prop 8 stand brought me into the open out loud. I'm so sad from this all I can do is be calm - has that ever happened to anyone else, is it normal? Is it shock I wonder? - I'm so mad I'm calm - and say to myself, well, here's another cause I was apparently born to join, because gay men and women saved my life when I was a teen. My father and I had real trouble getting along, and there was abuse. When I ran away, a gay man took me in. He had seen me at the clubs, and he took me in. Later, on my own feet, I took gay friends in. But enough about that. I decided I had to put my voice in and say something, because if things deteriorate further between us and us (and that's how I see it, us and us), and I said nothing, guess who's to blame? As a black woman with WAY too much history with my gay brothers and sisters, my heart has called me out. This is for Diego (who took me in), Tommy, Carson, Arlene, Elois, Hunter, all three Nicks, KJ, Lee, the Geishas (you know who you are, Gigglebox!), Rafi, Eliott, Mark, Frank, Pam the Drumming Machine (epiphone!), and anybody I forgot, I'll buy you a drink.

I was kind of hoping that protestors would stand outside that church and sing "The Word of God" from Leonard Bernstein's "Mass" instead of showing anger. You know what would be so eloquent right now, and put the hatred right back in its place? If the protestors did just that.

Surrounded the biggest Mormon church in Los Angeles, then softly sang a hymn while holding candles in a candlelight vigil. Gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered couples, holding candles, softly singing, as soft as a whisper. Showing what God is really all about in an historic, unforgettable way that would attract a couple thousand Getty photographers and inter/national reporters. I work in media and THAT is the way to effect change.

We black folk worked the media back in the late 1950's-late 1960's, and it was deliberate creation and manipulation of public reaction to photo images that REALLY changed segregation.

Who better than we to share our experience with the GLBT community now, now that we (yes we) need us (yes us)?

IT'S ON :nuke:

[Chovexani]

29. I don't know if you've read some of my posts on here

But I am a queer sister and I am not kidding when I say people like you lift me up when I can't deal with it anymore.

That and thinking of what my uncle went through. He passed when I was 8, from AIDS complications, back when the epidemic was still relatively new and everyone was scared shitless. Everyone knew he was gay but never said anything about it. He was one of the first blacks to work as an entry level designer for Dior, used to dress the Macy's windows, and always had a handsome "roommate". No one really gave him shit for it because he could reduce anyone who talked shit at him to tears and then go back to his Olde English (really he was the baddest most fabulous queen on Earth and I miss him so bad). When he got sick our church family basically turned their backs on us. We had to get support from the then-fledgling GMHC. I was too young to really understand what was going on (I didn't even know he had AIDS until I was told a few years ago), but that cold shoulder stuck with me. They've since gotten a lot better on the issue.

My family's long since moved on from that church, which is a shame. I think as dysfunctional as they can be, those old school black churches--the ones with Sister Odell and the Hospitality Committee selling chicken dinners in the basement and building funds that never build anything--are at least more tolerant than today's model Black Church, which tends to take the form of evangelical megachurches. At least they are more live and let live. My cousin out in Cali, the only one in the family besides his crazy mother who knows I'm "AC/DC" and dating a woman, still goes to one of those and is the least judgmental person on the planet. "God don't make mistakes" is something he says all the time. I only wish the rest of my family was like htat.

The pastor at my mom's megachurch is a regular on the Christian Men's circuit, and has been a featured speaker at more than one Promise Keeper rally. I really feel that things would have gone differently if they hadn't gotten "born again" and moved to that church. I think those giant Marriott churches have killed a lot of the tolerance and acceptance because they're so big and you never really get to know people in them, unless you sit next to them regularly at one of the 5 services. You never really get the chance to chat with the Minister of Music (they've got fourteen "Praise and Worship Leaders" in identical black turtlenecks who seem to be interchangeable). The only real exposure to "The Gay" in those megachurches is the pastor carrying on about how they're "recruiting our youth" or the pastor's wife at a women's conference talking in hushed whispers about how to spot your man on the down low. Stuff like that pushed me away and led me to seek other faiths.

It's people like us that can speak the language and understand the culture that are going to turn this thing around, truly. We need more folks like you. :hug:

[NJPuggle]

32. Stay strong

We ARE going to turn it around. I would have walked up to you and said hi at the "getting the spirit" church of yesteryear. I agree with you Megachurches have destroyed the intimacy of spiritual gatherings - both black and white - and now the Latinos are building Megachurches! Strange, but I don't recall Jesus ever preaching from inside a building; to my recollection, wasn't he usually out in nature when he did it? The Megachurches remind me of Albert Speer buildings... Nazi Superdomes... impersonal... chilling... almost like mass domes for mass indoctrination...

Another thing they destroyed, along with any humanity left in the black church, was IMHO real black music. There was a time we could tear up a brick s---thouse with just a piano, a drumkit, a bass, and a six-person choir. Now we have those black turtleneck muscleheads you described perfectly and their gigantic 100-piece orchestras, digital keyboards and whirling dancing spiritual dancers with pastel sashes jumping all over the place. And we wonder where soul music has gone.

I'm so sorry what happened to your uncle. It also happened to a great-uncle and cousin of mine. Both were creative, passionate, unique men with big futures, and yep, both happened in the Eighties when relatives told us they "got burnt up in that fire".

I'm sure I don't have to explain to you AT ALL what that phrase means, but we both may need to translate it for our nonblack readers :(

I feel sad for mitch below and hope one day he learns the easy way that war isn't the answer. For the GLBT community to respond to its 911 the way Bush's version of America did to its 911 will demonstrate that none of us learned a got-damn thing.

I refuse to believe that can happen.

[Chovexani]

38. Oh my god

You killed me with the dancers and the sashes. That is so dead on. :rofl: Debbie Allen interpretive dance at the Oscars bullshit. Speaking of dance, I miss stuff like Deacon Brown catching the Holy Ghost and dancing in the aisles. You just know if somebody pulled that at a megachurch those fools would damn near spill their Starbucks lattes on their laptops (that they use to take notes, because megachurch is just college with Jesus). It's not like they've got anything soulstirring to dance to anyway. I'm Wiccan for crying out loud and still love that old gospel music, it just moves your soul. The Kenny G stuff with dudes talking over it that passes for gospel today is a travesty. While I'm at it, why does every position in those Marriott churches sound like a job title at a corporation? "Praise and Worship Leader" sounds like an HR position at Walmart. When I'm in the car with my mom and we pass by that church, btw, I always hum the Imperial March from Star Wars. She never gets the joke. :P

In seriousness though, you don't have to explain to me about that phrase. :( I'm sorry about your family too. It seems like everyone's got a story or two like that from back then.

A lot of folks are really, really angry right now and lashing out. I can understand where the anger comes from, I'm feeling it too, but for different reasons. But I'm also feeling a lot of sadness that I can't really put into words. I just wish people would act right, you know?

I have to believe we'll get there. It'll just take time.

[NJPuggle]

39. Imperial March

Another black woman who knows it! This is too. much. I just downloaded a ukulele version of it last week :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And Debbie Allen - I almost spat out Coca Cola :spray:

Lord have mercy, we have to MEET. Please tell me you're in the New York area!!!

"That's not a moon... that's a space station"

[Chovexani]

40. Born and raised in Brooklyn, in fact.

I just moved back here after 2 1/2 years in Phoenix, too. And I'm a card carrying DORK. :D

[NJPuggle]

41. I'm going to be in Brooklyn next Thursday

I'm in Bergen County and have a meeting at the Lyceum at ten. Lunch and dorkiness?

NY... I should have known... :evilgrin:

[Chovexani]

43. Sure thing

Just message me on here when you get the chance.

(And I'm sorry Pri for hijacking your thread to make lunch dates with people! Well, a little. :D)

[Ellen Forradalom]

19. MUST-READ post #2

As awesome as Chovexani's in another thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x87611#87759

[NJPuggle]

23. It was beautiful

Thank you for directing me to that. She is right on the money. :hug:

[Ellen Forradalom]

44. Chovexani is very sharp

Strike up an acquaintance with her. You'll be glad.

[NJPuggle]

45. She definitely is

Looks like we're going to meet up in Brooklyn next week. I can't PM her though - too new! I'll catch up with her before then and send her all the partikulerz. I'm so glad I finally joined DU! Some good damn folks here. :)

[Chovexani]

52. Aww now you're just embarrassing me

:blush: :hug:

[NJPuggle]

63. :D

:hug:

[mitchtv]

24. No time to call for peace now

so it's not hate? "only" resentment and revege?. Peace my ass.

[NJPuggle]

25. So I guess...

You don't want to hear my idea for how to fix it. Well, kill us all, but don't forget to kill the Latinos who voted for it next, and then the Asians, and then the whites who did.

When you're alone surrounded by all the bodies, and earth is very sad and very quiet, you may think of peace then.

[mitchtv]

26. better them than me

[sui generis]

77. NJ, I think people are talking past each other

I don't understand why we can't say that some blacks, and some catholics and some bigots voted against us, without it becoming a condemnation of blacks and catholics. It's not all or nothing.

We also know that some voted WITH us, so why are we focusing on the bad news? It is a fact, noted in the news, and worthy of discussion more than blame.

It is absolutely appropriate to notice it. It is not appropriate to generalize from it. But both sides here seem to be generalizing.

Just as you pointed out that you have taken care of your friends without regard to skin color or any other cultural factor, there are many gays who have tirelessly stood up against racism, hurtful language, and every horrible thing ever done to someone because of their skin color. Some of us really did march shoulder to shoulder with you, literally, not because you were black but because we are all human.

So it is only appropriate to note that we are disappointed that SOME of the very people we supported then did not return the favor. It's not racism. It's not scapegoating. It's not blaming the whole thing on one culture of origin or another.

It's pointing OUT, in that case that we don't get it, and worse, that if one does count skin color in the equation, then some people whose marriages are banned were voted against twice. As humans, we have to own it. Not as blacks versus whites or any other ridiculous alignment of outward appearance.

And oh yeah. I buried my first fostered AIDS baby almost fifteen years ago, little girl was black as a lump of coal. I have buried too many in my life, that I couldn't save, and every person in the gay community born in the sixties and before has buried a thousand more people than anyone ever managed to save, literally, each of us. We know what it's like to change bedpans when nobody would touch our friends. We know what it's like to watch the coroner leave our collective homes with our loved ones, and with our children, siblings, parents, and friends. We know enough to be really really angry at anyone who voted against us, and believe me about skin color in the Prop 8 vote, who gives the tiniest shit, really.

I think all of our hearts are in the right place, but the anger will fade into something probably more dangerous if these lawsuits fail. I can tell you nobody is going to be going after black voters. We'll be going after whoever signed that fucking petition, legally speaking of course, and the process that allowed such a petition to be submitted.

[Maven]

31. You are my favorite new DUer.

Welcome.

[NJPuggle]

33. Man, we got a lot of work to do. :(

:hug:

[Duncan Grant]

34. Innumerable gay people have devoted themselves to our common welfare and prosperity.

I am struggling deeply with feelings of hurt, anger and betrayal - so I'm going to speak as plainly and respectfully as I can.

This revenge (as you describe it) has been directed toward the wrong target and it will be a good long while before I forget it. This act of revenge - voting to remove state sanctioned rights - is evil and indefensible.

There has been a rude awakening among gay people: 70% of the black community voted to disenfranchise us. Regardless of the proposition's outcome, that 70% still marked those ballots "Yes on 8".

You suggest that we begin a dialog where gays listen as much as we speak. We'll get there when the black community can empathize with how gay people are feeling about this. Additionally, an apology for this profound act of betrayal and cruelty is required.

What a miserable legacy for the ideals of hope and change.

[mitchtv]

76. Thanks, I feel the same

It beats congratulationg each other on some percieved tolerance. Fuck that. My heart is closed down for renovatons.

[Chulanowa]

35. That was an awesome post

I would say more, but I don't think I could do so effectively

[NJPuggle]

42. Thank you

This issue really works me up. The thing is, I feel this is closer than ever. Isn't that weird?

[mzmolly]

46. Bravo!

And welcome. :hi:

[NJPuggle]

47. Thank you

As the Jacksons would sing, "So glad to be here!"

I was actually scared if I joined DU before the election I'd jinx it. It almost seems funny now to be that neurotic about an election, but after these 8 years I was ready to see a damned witch doctor to ensure we won it.

Thank you for welcoming me. I meant every word. :grouphug:

[mzmolly]

49. I know what you mean about

being superstitious.

Stick around, we'll enjoy having you here. :)

[MNBrewer]

50. HUH?

"Insensitive to the black wish that the gay community cease comparing its struggle to the black struggle. Reasonable or not, blacks as a whole consider this insulting - and have begged the GLBT community for years to stop. It has not. Yet gays do not widely use the Holocaust as a comparison; and blacks believe gays fear Jewish community activism and immediate, effective, damning worldwide reprisal therefrom if gays ever did so."

Unreasonable, for sure.

Gays do use the Holocaust as a comparison, partly because gays were caught up in it.

[Ellen Forradalom]

53. the PINK TRIANGLE

is from the Holocaust. Gays were also a part of it.

[Chovexani]

54. Out of that entire post, that's what you zero in on?

Note the poster didn't say that's what she believed, nor did she say that she thinks such a belief is reasonable.

This lady's one of the good ones, okay? Please hear her out.

[MNBrewer]

58. I realize both points.

That she didn't say the quote was what SHE thinks, and that she IS one of the good ones.

On a separate note:

I wonder if the election of Obama can start to get certain people in the Black community to move away from the concept that they comprise the Ultimate American Victim Group, and let them start to see that their suffering isn't unique. Different circumstances can still lead to the same types of suffering.

[bliss_eternal]

51. This really needs to be on the main page....

...thank you for sharing, NJPuggle--and welcome to DU! :hi::hug:
Really great to meet you!

[HamdenRice]

59. Excellent post! nt

[NJPuggle]

64. Thank you

HamdenRice. I hope light can be brought into this, because I believe the right cooked this entire story to cause trouble for Dems, for blacks and gays, and for Obama the moment they saw the landslide coming.

Because blacks and gays are both their favorite people, of course.

The real bigots who started this story think both blacks and gays are overemotional and probably planned to set both sides off at one another to cause real damage, and to sour black happiness on what could have been our ancestors' gladdest morning. It was a deliberate attempt to make someone piss in our party punch, and it was engineered as an act of hatred.

What saddens me is many GLBTs are actually falling for it.

Perhaps once that same bigoted right triggers in-fighting between the GLB and the very (and understandably angry) Ts, which is likely the next planned act of division, gays and lesbians will open their eyes and see how they're being used as the hammer of Nazis.


Edited to insert an s in gladdest.

[Duncan Grant]

92. As if any of that changes the fact that Blacks voted to remove rights from gays.

This rationalization is divisive and uncalled for. It doesn't change FACTS. You are vilifying your allies, yet again.

edit to add: There is not enough context in the world to justify bigotry. Thought. You. Knew.

[Wiegee]

93. There is no justification for bigotry, you're right

Then where do you get off saying something like "blacks voted to remove rights from gays," as though they are of a hive mind?

Is it true that a majority did? Sadly, yes.

Did they all? Oh, hell no.

Your words reflect your own bigotry.

[Duncan Grant]

94. I'm happy to clarify:

I thought it was implicitly understood we're talking about the 70% who voted "Yes on 8".

No bigotry intended but thanks for reaching for it. I knew you could.

[Wiegee]

95. You're welcome

Hope you can be more specific and clear in the future.

[Duncan Grant]

96. Each one. Teach one. (nt)

[Lyric]

61. We don't use the Holocaust for comparison because

we were PART of the Holocaust. Hitler wasn't only killing Jews over there--he targeted other groups too, of which gay people were one of the largest. Thus, the pink triangle symbol. We don't fear Jewish reprimand for using Holocaust comparisons--why would we? They know as well as we do that we were victimized too.



The fact of the matter is that our current struggle IS more like to civil rights movement than the Holocaust. They haven't opened up the gay death camps yet, after all. We aren't being rounded up into gay ghettos and starved in the midst of our own feces. If such things ever do happen, we'll be sure to use the Holocaust as a comparison instead of the Civil Rights Movement, when we're weeping on our way to the gas chamber.

I'm sorry. I know you don't agree, and I don't blame *you* for what other people think, but some of the "reasons" you listed are just fucking absurd. Semantics are supposed to be the reason why we don't deserve the support of a fellow oppressed minority? Because we use certain phrases, or don't use others? Jesus.

[NJPuggle]

62. Sighhhhh

History of Blacks in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Blacks_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust

The black American point, valid or not, is that GLBT folks are not eagerly and loudly beating a path to the door of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League and claiming the suffering of GLBTs in the Holocaust was greater and therefore more valid than the suffering of Jews.

That is exactly black America believes the GLBT community has done to the black community, and because everyone else picks on blacks and gets away with it, the perception is that gays and lesbians feel they can as well.

What worsens it is while continuing to target blacks, the GLBT community is perceived by black America as being unusually obsessed with black America. The day blacks hear GLBTs using white Mormon phrases, Jewish slang, and Latino head rolls and fingersnaps on a widespread basis, blacks will begin perceiving this less often. The fact is, white GLBTs, especially gay white males, are fascinated by black female culture and black American women know it.

Now sit back and look at the probably cooked numbers: black female culture long under the microscope of gay white male culture - another instance of white male privilege, or what many black women perceive as whites robbing black culture and lives with no acknowledgment and no payback - and black women allegedly the strongest voters for Proposition 8?

If you are white and GLBT and refuse to see or even discuss the possibility of the perception of white GLBT community racism and privilege, and if you continue to think that your sexual identity magically neutralizes 100% any white privilege you have, don't blame black Americans, especially black female Americans who remain at the bottom of the social strata in America, far below GLBs but about where the transgendered are, when they look up at you with talion and resentment.

I've voiced the reasons, I've voiced my nonalliance with the reasons, and that is my final statement on it. If you want to continue to target black America, black America will remain unsympathetic, it will resist further discussion on the matter, and its numbers will defeat other pro-GLBT legislation at the polls.

Get used to marriage counseling.

Talk to each other or prepare for divorce. That applies to us all.



Edited to add title to Wiki link.

[Lyric]

67. You are deluded.

The black American point, valid or not, is that GLBT folks are not eagerly and loudly beating a path to the door of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League and claiming the suffering of GLBTs in the Holocaust was greater and therefore more valid than the suffering of Jews.

Why would we? The entire notion is ludicrous.

That is exactly black America believes the GLBT community has done to the black community, and because everyone else picks on blacks and gets away with it, the perception is that gays and lesbians feel they can as well.

Then black America is flat-out wrong. We don't claim that we have suffered more than blacks, or Jews, or ANYONE. Why the hell would anyone try and tally up "suffering?" ANY suffering due to discrimination, bigotry, and inequality is equally horrible on an individual level. On a community level, it's horrible as well, but as I said before, I have never heard anyone claim that the modern American gay community suffers to exactly the same degree as the black community did during the Civil Rights era. We don't, and it's due in large part TO the Civil Rights Movement. We all know that, and we all appreciate it. But the fact of the matter is that many of the rights that AA's won back then are still denied to gay people.

What worsens it is while continuing to target blacks, the GLBT community is perceived by black America as being unusually obsessed with black America. The day blacks hear GLBTs using white Mormon phrases, Jewish slang, and Latino head rolls and fingersnaps on a widespread basis, blacks will begin perceiving this less often. The fact is, white GLBTs, especially gay white males, are fascinated by black female culture and black American women know it.

Whoooa, there. You slipped out of "This is what the black community mistakenly thinks" and into "This is what reality IS." You have a lot of false premises and assumptions here. Firstly, we don't "target blacks." Secondly, we aren't "obsessed with black America" or with black women. If "black America" is judging us by what they see on TV, then they need to remember how it felt when THEY were stereotyped on TV. I know literally hundreds of gay men, of all colors, and only a small handful do the cheesy snapping-you-go-girl thing--and even then, only during drag shows, where such behavior is part of the "show." That's a stereotype. That is not reality. Please stop assuming that the stereotype is a "fact," to quote you.

Now sit back and look at the probably cooked numbers: black female culture long under the microscope of gay white male culture - another instance of white male privilege, or what many black women perceive as whites robbing black culture and lives with no acknowledgment and no payback - and black women allegedly the strongest voters for Proposition 8?

Again, all of this rests on the assumption that gay white men are a stereotype. That assumption simply is not true.

If you are white and GLBT and refuse to see or even discuss the possibility of the perception of white GLBT community racism and privilege, and if you continue to think that your sexual identity magically neutralizes 100% any white privilege you have, don't blame black Americans, especially black female Americans who remain at the bottom of the social strata in America, far below GLBs but about where the transgendered are, when they look up at you with talion and resentment.

I resent your implication that we are all blissfully unaware of white privilege, and I also resent the fuck out of your preachy tone. As someone who's making massive judgements based on false, cheesy stereotypes, you hardly have any standing the lecture anyone else on proper PC behavior. Free your mind, lose your bullshit assumptions, and get back to me.

I've voiced the reasons, I've voiced my nonalliance with the reasons, and that is my final statement on it. If you want to continue to target black America, black America will remain unsympathetic, it will resist further discussion on the matter, and its numbers will defeat other pro-GLBT legislation at the polls.

Non-alliance? That's not how it sounded to me. You were stating some rather insulting and prejudiced assumptions as "fact," and then using them to try and explain why black Americans shouldn't be "blamed" for being bigots. I call bullshit on a massive scale.

[NJPuggle]

69. "Why the hell would anyone try and tally up 'suffering?'"

Good question.

[HamdenRice]

70. Here's where you went off the rails --->

"ANY suffering due to discrimination, bigotry, and inequality is equally horrible on an individual level."

That's just wrong.

But at least we may be getting at the root of our fundamental disagreements. Five of my great grandparents were slaves, and our family preserved the oral history of their suffering. My grandparents lived under what was essentially state terrorism. My parents were not permitted to go to academic high school (there was no high school for blacks in my father's corner of Virginia, so he had only a 7th grade education until he went back to school many years later). I was in a busing program to a white school where we were greeted with screams of "ni**ger go home," and where there was a "beat up ni**ers day."

Yet, I would never compare the suffering of recent generations of African Americans with what happened to Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe. There is no question that our suffering was not "equally horrible" to theirs.

And when I went to South Africa in the 1980s to participate in both research and an anti-apartheid organization, I freely acknowledged that black South Africans were going through suffering that black Americans of that era could barely comprehend, although perhaps my parents or grandparents could.

And when I compare the slave trade with the eradication of the Native Americans I come up with a toss up of horror.

Until you understand that there is indeed a hierarchy of suffering and different forms of discrimination are different, you won't be able to build the alliances you seek.

[Lyric]

73. Actually, it's not wrong. I specifically said "individual."

You're talking community damage--wide scope--and I clearly stated that I am NOT claiming that the modern gay "community" has suffered as much as the black "community." But on an individual level? Do you really think that it hurts more when a black person is beaten for being black than it does when a gay person is beaten for being gay? Do you really think that a racial epithet is more degrading and humiliating than a gay one? Is Matthew Shepherd any less dead than James Byrd? And what about people who are black AND gay? How are THEY supposed to measure their pain? I mean really--what the hell is it that you're trying to say? Civil rights are NOT "community" rights, they are INDIVIDUAL ones--and THAT is where we should measure, if we measure at all.

Until YOU understand that it is both morally and logically abhorrent to get into arguments about which person suffered more pain while they were being beaten to fucking death out of bigotry, people like ME will continue to ignore you. I'm not seeking alliance with bigots. I'm seeking alliance with people who DON'T pull out a measuring stick for agony when the root cause is the actual problem. Until we address BIGOTRY, we are just pitting one oppressed, hurting minority against another. And that is a battle in which the only "winner" is the straight, white, male, rich conservative fuckhead sitting on the sidelines, holding all the fucking power, and snickering at us for fighting each OTHER instead of HIM.

[HamdenRice]

80. Sorry, you're still wrong and until you get it ...

I doubt you'll be part of the solution.

Even looked at from an individual perspective, the effect of discrimination on say a young, poor African American who has been denied a decent education, who is forced to live in a segregated ghetto, who can't get a job and is harassed by the police on a daily basis, is more damaging than what we are talking about with this issue -- whether California will make a distinction between civil unions and marriage for (as NJPuggle pointed out) what are perceived to be middle class white gay and lesbian couples.

If you can't grasp that, you'll never be able to reach across the divide.

If you try to build bridges and alliances to the community that just voted for Prop 8 with the premise that the effect of the two kinds of discrimination is equally damaging, then the conversation is basically going to be a non-starter. You will definitely alienate people.

[QC]

108. Good lord, do you *ever* get tired of pontificating? n/t

[pecwae]

114. No.

[QC]

120. True. n/t

[HamdenRice]

116. Pontificating? That's kind of like being "uppity" in pressing one's point

while being a colored man.

Sorry bossman. I be more humble next time -- !


(when arguing against stupidity)

[QC]

118. Pontificate: to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner. n/t

[NorthernSpy]

99. "I'm not seeking alliance with bigots."

Interesting.


The Mormons -- major backers of Yes on 8 -- won precisely because they didn't allow the harshly anti-Mormon views of other Christian groups to stop them from making common cause with those other groups.


And mind you, all this happened a few months after Mitt Romney's presidential aspirations had been deliberately destroyed by Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who could not tolerate the idea of a Mormon as President.

[bluedawg12]

78. There has been a heirarchy of issues too

and the black civil rights movement has been in the forefront and supported by GLBT's.

So, we understand the histroic roots of AA's civil rights stuggle, the question is do AA's understand and support the GLBT struggle for civil rights?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. while i agree with you, gay suffer a lot more both here and across the globe today

not only do a lot of us lack basic civil rights and protection, in some states. till very recently, there were anti sodomy laws on the books.

gay have historically had to hide and live in fear

gays were killed during the holocaust

gays are still killed in iran and parts of the midwest

just a few days ago, in india, gays were rounded up and arrested and sexual abused by cops

in america, within other demographics gays suffer more too. yes straigh blacks suffer from systematic racism and poverty, but gay blacks suffer that in addition to the oppression of sexual orientation

so there is a hierarchy and we are close to the bottom

[readmoreoften]

110. Gay people are killed all over America, not just the midwest.

Sakia Gunn
Rashawn Brazell
Larry King

Countless others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

119. dude i totally meant to say middle east and not midwest

:)

[sui generis]

81. I do not agree AT ALL

We're not beating a path to anyone's accommodation of us, jews, blacks, oppressed women, or ugly white slack jawed yokels in Alabama or in the White House. nobody EITHER side of the fence. This is about us, not them. Maybe the phrase got under my skin, but at first read it seems to be making this about black accommodation of the issue instead of cultural accommodation, at this point.

Can you clarify the jewish part? The holocaust was a tragedy of humanity, not just nazi germany, and I'll wager I know a bit more than most about it from my own family's experience with it.

Many people can't see that discriminating against someone for their skin color is not the same as discriminating against them for an IDEA that they have to either admit to or be accused of and that they can neither prove nor disprove. Skin color - that's human stupidity. Ideas - that's just insane, and by the way, exactly how we got to the holocaust. Yet skin color is an idea. People who had never seen a "black man" were voting on the idea that someone's skin color should keep them from voting or getting married to a "white woman", whatever that is.

What is black anyway? Please define it in genetic terms - were the 19th century "quadroons" of new orleans black? Or white? What amount of cream in you coffee or vice versa makes tips the scale? What criteria are we using to choose? skin color is a non-starter. Reparations based on skin color? so someone who is a child of a coffee parent and a cream parent should stand pat? I'm pretty sure you know all the arguments against, but mostly that you would have to punish an entire culture rather than a race to make it stick. But how confusing for people who are focused on skin color, or whose culture abandoned slavery thousands of years ago, and without using christianity as their morality of choice.

But now let's talk about culture instead of skin color, and all of a sudden the point is some people think we are not as American as they are. We are like the retarded younger sibling that they have a self-imposed right to make decisions for. That's the real rub. We are not owned, any more than slaves, women, or retarded (I know I know) children who require a guardian.

We are red blooded Americans and the last time I checked, I'm not even sure what color I am, and what's more I don't care. I'm pissed off at the OTHER Americans who think they have some say in my life, and I'm not sure what color they are, AND I don't care in any way except to note some irony.

[Ellen Forradalom]

85. I'm having issues with this passage

"the GLBT community is perceived by black America as being unusually obsessed with black America. The day blacks hear GLBTs using white Mormon phrases, Jewish slang, and Latino head rolls and fingersnaps..."

Mormons do not congregate in urban enclaves as gays and blacks have. The latter two groups have lived side by side in cities for a long time. Of course there is going to be some rubbing off of culture.
White America adopts black culture all over the place. It is not a gay or straight thing.
EVERYONE uses Jewish slang. Yiddish phrases are now part of mainstream American English. It is meshuggenah to suggest otherwise.
Come see how steeped in Latino culture white Californians can be. It's muy prevelant.

[Duncan Grant]

88. The "talion" (retaliation) you speak of is indefensible. You're *not* helping.

You're not an ally of gay people. You're a fraud.

You seek to justify a vote that removed state sanctioned rights from gay Americans.

Let's hold bigots accountable for their actions. No amount of "context" (wink, wink) will remove the stain of complicity.

edit: " "

[readmoreoften]

105. Did you ever think that GAY WHITE MALES might be emulating

from their FEMININE BLACK LGBT FRIENDS??? Did you ever hear of DRAG QUEEN BALL CULTURE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTuzFNZftY&feature=related

"The fact is, white GLBTs, especially gay white males, are fascinated by black female culture and black American women know it."

So, let me get this straight: Black gay men are victims who are emulating a white perverts who are robbing black women of black femininity who then pass this stolen black femininity onto BLACK GAY MEN.

Or maybe black women who feel this way are ignorant of gay culture period and didn't figure out that white queens are emulating black queens.

I'm assuming that black straight men are opposed to heterosexual marriage because corny white people try to rap too, right?

[readmoreoften]

107. Then black folks who buy into this are holocaust revisionists and should be treated accordingly.

[readmoreoften]

109. No black female Americans are not at the bottom of the social strata.

POOR BLACK LESBIANS and TRANSGENDERED AMERICANS ARE.

This disenfranchises queer people of color. Fucking over QPOC to spite white gay people is stupid.

[freestyle]

71. Thank you and welcome to DU. Please stick around.

Thanks for bringing up some things that are unpleasant but need to be discussed and thanks for your support. We will work this out, but the road will be long. We also need to learn from success stories like Massachusetts and Connecticut as we go forward. There are ways to win, and we will. Not all of us will be around to see it. I may not be around to see it, but someone will. We do not do this only for ourselves, but to honor the memory of those who have gone before and to build the world for those who follow.

[NJPuggle]

87. Hi Freestyle, and thank you, but I'm leaving.

I've been having serious thoughts at work today about whether to stay on DU, though. I just emerged from under my "clurking device" and am already considering walking away. I feel personally annihilated as a black woman here; things I've risked, said and done to defend and protect people I care about as brothers and sisters are minimized and erased with the stroke of a pixel from an anonymous critic who does not know me and wasn't even there; and I feel like a drop in an ocean against a raging sea of people who simply will not get it that there is a hierarchy of suffering and that being denied the FULL rights of marriage is not the same as no longer knowing your real surname because humans with lighter skin than yours renamed your ancestors like pets, no longer knowing your real religion or nation of origin because your ancestors were deliberately degaussed like recording tape so there would be none, and walking around like an orphan with an Irish person's name because Irish-Americans thought it would be cute to own a nanny or a buck and put them to field. I'm sick of the insults, minimizing, hysteria and narcissism. In fact I'm over it. This is my last post.

Here we have people who can sit in the same movie theater or cafeteria as straights RIGHT NOW and enjoy a fucking latte when only 55 years ago my parents could not do the same around whites, yet raging and seething at me from their privileged spot while insisting that one Matthew Shepard is worth more than Emmet Till, James Byrd, and thousands of other nameless black men, and then growling how dare I say aloud they have privilege; play along, you monkey. Why can't they name more than Matthew? We on the other hand can. Are so many gay people being hanged from trees for sport in a specific nation someone actually writes a jazz standard about it, titled "Strange Fruit"?

Gosh, help me out, folks:

Where is the gay Jena 6? Where are the gay men and women performed Tuskegee Institute sexual experiments upon? Oops, did a bomb go off last night in a gay club killing four young gay girls as they walked in to dance? Musta did!

Have crowds of gays been unleashed dogs upon en masse across the country? Where are the water cannons? Gay students are unfairly bullied and even killed now in schools, but you know, at least they get to attend the same schools as straights, instead of requiring Federal Marshalls to escort them to do so as crowds of seething straights with signs threaten to tear young gay third-graders limb from fucking limb because they look different. And why is that? Oh, because gay students can choose to exist safely under the radar while black skin, frowsy hair and big lips kind of fucking give it away what you are immediately with noplace to fucking hide? Privilege. Privilege!

Did Andy Warhol get turned down for art funding or granted and celebrated?
How about Robert Mapplethorpe? Piss Christ, anyone?

The last time I looked, was West Hollywood, Key West or the Village BURNED TO THE GROUND WITH ALL INHABITANTS LYNCHED AND MURDERED because a gay man looked at a straight man or a lesbian looked at a straight woman?

Where were the evil black mobs to defend me with bigotry when the white lesbian fired me for not eating her out on her command?

She was white, I was black, I was fired, and she was believed.
Where is your outrage NOW?
Where the fuck was it then?

Oh, but she was one of yours, so I'm supposed to just shut the fuck up about it yet pick up a heavy stone and carry it for YOU, huh? Join the cause. Join the cause.

What about MY cause?

I've had it with the sanctimony and double-standards and am exhausted and angry and done explaining. I tried to reach out and can't take it anymore. Life is hard enough because blackness is a gaydar ping I can't turn off. I notice it; whites like the students who painted their faces brown and black with mud and re-enacted Jena 6 as a joke notice it (where was gay outrage?); Latinos like the Castaneda woman who lynched Barack in effigy the other day in California notice it (where was gay outrage?); Asians like the Japanese and Chinese men who see me smile at them and quickly cast their eyes down while hurrying past see it; Asians like the Korean shop owners who immediately suspect I'm going to throw a black female hissy fit or steal something or kill them when I walk in the store notice it; the Jewish friend who joked that it's now the Black House notices it; the gay white woman who used racial power to impoverish and humilate me noticed it; the gay white men who call me a nigger and ask me to "act sassy - come on, show em sista, get that hump in your back, come onnnn, get MAD girl" notice it...

Our race has been carrying the weight of it for centuries and here the week we finally have one dry bone tossed to us we can't even enjoy it - not even sufficient grace is shown to allow our people THIS ONE FUCKING WEEK TO BE HAPPY IN A SURREAL, SUDDENLY SLIGHTLY LESS AGONIZING WORLD FOR ONE INSTANT, because we OWE something to you. Nevermind the Latinos, Asians and whites and ALL THE DAMNED CHRISTIANS OF EVERY COLOR who definitely owe you, the MSM says blacks did it, blacks did it, blacks did it, so pick up the lynch ropes and torches and let's go kill us some niggers!

Fuck. you. all. who. did. this. (Except five people on this thread, and all five know who you are.)

Once again a nameless, evanescent white rumor-monger has pointed a blame finger at blacks accusing us of something nobody even saw us do and white hordes come to attack us on RUMOR AND FUCKING INNUENDO because of course all black people are hypersexed (the threads about black male hypermasculinity), uppity (the white gay upstairs on this thread upbraiding me about my "tone") and ignorant (blacks are uninformed, uneducated and don't know any better, the poor little porch monkey savages). Not one of you has questioned those numbers or their true origins or motive.

And for that, too: fuck all the ones who did it.

I think Bagheera put it best in Walt Disney's "The Jungle Book" when he finally had enough of Mowgli's ingratitude and sanctimonious, childish acting-out:

"From now on, you're on your own. Alone!"

And no, I won't let the door hit me in the ass when I leave. I don't have to explain a got damn thing to a single one of you. I've got a life, we have a new black president, history has been made, and I've got work to do.

I hope reincarnation is real so all of you come into your next life black so you can find out what discrimination REALLY is. Not a la fucking carte as I select in certain neighborhoods, schools and scenarios but EVERYFUCKEDYWHERE YOU GO.

I in the meantime hope to come back gay and white so I can "opt" whether I want to be treated substandard today, and do, wear or say something I know the fuck is unusual so I can bring it on instead of walking around in my invisible suitcase shroud of protection 24 hours a fucking day as usual.

You about the "tone": fuck your racist bigoted ass. I don't owe you no goddamn proper talk, Miss Anne.

Good luck to you.

Sorry, Chove.

EDITED TO ADD:

None of us black people ruined your special election day when James Buchanan became President. As history recalls, it so happens we were slaves then; and James and his boyfriend Senator Rufus King were sufficiently enfranchised and oh so denied their rights in America to have the power to DENY BLACK AMERICANS THEIR RIGHTS ON THE FUCKING DRED SCOTT.

Read some fucking history and leave us alone on this special week.

I'm out.

[Duncan Grant]

91. Your contempt for gay Americans is duly noted.

None of us black people ruined your special election day when James Buchanan became President. As history recalls, it so happens we were slaves then; and James and his boyfriend Senator Rufus King were sufficiently enfranchised and oh so denied their rights in America to have the power to DENY BLACK AMERICANS THEIR RIGHTS ON THE FUCKING DRED SCOTT.

Read some fucking history and leave us alone on this special week.

I'm out.

edit: My written condemnation of the above isn't required.

[QC]

103. Looks like her true feelings are out there for all to see. n/t

[Duncan Grant]

104. She's great! She should post more often.

Yeah, whatever. :shrug:

edit: subject line

[QC]

106. I love the way she started with the "I'm your friend" pose

and told us all how grateful we should be for all she has done for us, but then when some disagreed with her, we were all just a bunch of fucking faggots.

I know a troll when I see one, and this is a Class A troll.

[readmoreoften]

111. But did you shed a tear for Sakia Gunn or Rashawn Brazell or Larry King?

Or do only the murders of straight POC count?

[Ellen Forradalom]

16. There may be a real perception of threat

fueled by pressures on the community and the misconception that being gay is "learned", that causes people to feel they need to "defend" their families.

[specimenfred1984]

36. I'm waiting for gay-bashing posts to get 500 recs like Dem-bashing posts do

It's a wonderful world we live in, filled with self-serving greed monsters who love to see their own useless words on a computer screen.

[jonnyblitz]

37. everybody is so worried about offending bigots because of their

race or religion. it's getting fucking TEDIOUS. I need to force myself away from this discussion board filled with so many stupid people or I will go NUTS.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. i hope i wasnt trying to excuse anyone for not voting NO on prop 8

i just want to discuss going forward what we should do/expect

[bluedawg12]

84. I almost agree with the walking away part...

it's an uphill battle against denial.

It's like Obama never said:

"If we are honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community," Obama told 2,000 worshippers Sunday at Atlanta's Ebenezer Baptist Church, where King once preached.
"We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them."

[Duncan Grant]

90. Hey jonny! Don't you know if you put it into proper "context" it makes it ok?

Can you imagine if this argument were 70% of gays voted to remove state sanctioned rights from Blacks?

Wow, what a shit storm that would be!

[Jamastiene]

48. I'm disappointed in certain aspects of the Prop h8 thing, but

I still am of a mind that it will be the black community who will save the GLBT community in the end. I don't know what causes that feeling to never leave me, except possibly for my own personal experiences, but it never does. I might be wrong as hell or some kind of horrible racist for thinking this way, but I do...and the reason for that is that in my personal life, it has been the black community that has saved my butt time and again. Most everyone around knows I am gay too, including the people who have saved my butt in a crisis or otherwise troublesome situations. So, there are some really great straight/gay/bi/ts/tg allies in the black community too. I also have a gut feeling that MLK, Jr.'s words and Coretta Scott King's words will save not just us down the road, but lots of other people for different reasons as well. They had the most knowledge and paid the highest price in the fight against prejudice/hate/discrimination.

We have been taught to think in black and white and gay and straight for so long now, that we rarely ever think mathematically about the real combinations that exist in the human race. We need to quit thinking in binary and think more in our base 10/decimal format. Meaning, we need to realize that black does not always equal straight and gay does not always equal white. We are just people, people. Thinking in binary in any given situation holds us back. It doesn't move us forward. Humans are not binary, computers are...and computers are not even as efficient as they could be because they are binary.

On the television thing, I never thought about that until you mentioned it. I see people who are gay and all kinds of different races in real life, but never on TV. :wtf: We know there are gay black people, bi black people, transgendered black people, gay Asian people, bi Asian people, and a plethora of other combinations of attributes of every race when it comes to the GLBT community. Why don't we see them much, if at all, on television? I'm confused by that. I cannot name even one on television. There WAS a gay black guy in Revenge of the Nerds, but that is all. And my aunt swears up and down that Little Richard is gay, but I've never known for sure if that is true. So, I won't count him in case he is not. Still, the fact that we don't see any gay black people on television...That is so weird.

[Chovexani]

55. Lamar was seriously my favorite character in that movie

And I don't care who knows it. :P

[NJPuggle]

66. Gay black people on television

I can't answer that. I work in television, and see white gay males behind the desks with a great deal of power in television. Gay men are certainly not art directors or key hair and makeup. They tend to be the executive directors of entire series, and show runners and show originators who decide what the show is about, whether it gets on the air, and what color faces and bodies will be in front of - and behind - the camera at all.

Hmm is all I will say to that.

White lesbians have very little power I can see in television (don't name Ellen; she is at the beck and call of her executive producers and the network execs, who are likely either white heterosexual female or white gay male), but recently made better success in feature. Nina Jacobson, arguably the most powerful Hollywood lesbian on record, is very sweet and was a friend of mine in the Nineties. Funny how she ended up being fired suddenly by several men with power around her, like straight women, isn't it? (Probably because she WAS so sweet. Rise again, Nina.) :(

Heterosexual women have about the same level of power in features, but less television power than white gay men, who as execs brought in the reality show craze. Below straight women in television are gay black men. I find they usually have to remain closeted if they want to succeed, because at least in my isolated observation unless a powerful gay white male takes a romantic interest in him and gives him executive power by association, a gay black man will remain isolated and marginalized in this field.

At the bottom are the transgendered and lesbians of color. There are no television execs of either persuasion I've met or seen yet.

Demoralized, I expect someone to now mention Oprah, as if one token woman of color with power in television makes all the above okay somehow. OK, then white Americans aren't suffering financially and losing their homes right now because Bill Gates is a billionaire. We get it.

But to answer why we don't see more gay men as characters on television, I'm not an expert and will never be, but I do work at an executive level in television, and I see a lot. I had to go back to my own company to do so. I see a lot of white gay men at the top - surprise, surprise, white males again - and them saying seeing themselves onscreen is "boring". Instead they seem to prefer depicting straight white females and having the characters written so that gay men can speak and live through them vicariously. Sex In The City is a recent example.

I know of one black gay man who has reached executive power behind the big screen, and he tends to do the same. Black film producer Lee Daniels overlooks telling the "boring" black gay male story in favor of glamorous feature films starring glamorous biracial black divas living in high-octane, high-drama, over the top situations that would never happen in real life.

I used to hear a joke on a few sets:

If all the straight male actors on the set are unusually good-looking with exceptional bodies and a dumb expression, the person with power here is probably a gay guy.

If the actors take their shirts off for no reason in the story, definitely a gay guy.

Don't yell at me for sharing the joke. A lesbian grip told it.

[Jamastiene]

100. Lol.

That joke is harmless...and cute, imo. :rofl:

I was talking more about on screen, but I understand your point about what goes on behind the scenes.

[readmoreoften]

112. You mentioned a token lesbian...and then called Oprah a mere token.

Please, as a white lesbian whose butch half-white, half-native america partner makes $7 an hour at Starbucks I give you a big PLEASE. Lesbians are HARDLY on par with straight women in the industry.

[bluedawg12]

56. "Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church"

It's not my opinion it's what I found and read for several other posts tonight.

This article explains why and the background history.

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Blacks+%2B+homophobia&fr=slv8-tyc7&u=www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia%2C_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf&w=blacks+black+black%27s+homophobia&d=Y-If1kLURufi&icp=1&.intl=us

Or in pdf format: http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia,_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf

Culture, Health & Sexuality, September–October 2005; 7(5): 493–504ISSN 1369-1058 print/ISSN 1464-5351 online # 2005 Taylor & Francis
DOI: 10.1080/13691050500151248

SHORT REPORTHomophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black churchELIJAH G. WARDInstitute for Health Research and Policy, School of Public Health, University of Illinois at Chicago,
USAAbstract

Black churches in the USA constitute a significant source of the homophobia that pervades black
communities. This theologically-driven homophobia is reinforced by the anti-homosexual
rhetoric of black nationalism. Drawing on a variety of sources, this paper discusses the sources of
homophobia within black communities, and its impact upon self-esteem, social relationships
and physical health. Religion-based homophobia and black nationalism point to wider structures
which have influenced their emergence, including racism, patriarchy and capitalism. It is vital for US
black churches and communities to understand and transcend their longstanding resistance to openly
addressing complex, painful issues of sexuality and embrace healthier definitions of black manhood.

Although many of them do not support anti-gay discrimination, evidence from media-
based and empirical surveys indicates that significant numbers of people in the USA,
including black people, see homosexual relationships as unacceptable and morally
wrong (Crawford et al. 2002:179–180). Black churches hold a central and uniquely
influential position within black culture and society in the USA (Lincoln and Mamiya
1990). Both directly and indirectly, black churches have been identified as fostering
homophobia—a fear or contempt for homosexuals and behaviour based upon such
feelings—playing an important role in its genesis, legitimation and weekly reinforcement
in black communities (Dyson 1996). Indeed, theologically-driven homophobia, aided
by black nationalist ideology, supports a strong and exaggerated sense of masculinity
within black communities that, along with homophobia, takes a significant but generally
unexamined psychic and social toll on people’s lives. These forces adversely shape the
lives not only of black gay/bisexual men but also those of black heterosexual males and
females.

The influence of black churchesUS black churches are diverse in character, spanning vast differences along many
dimensions including theological tradition, style of worship, music, urban/rural location
and socioeconomic status. The black church in the USA is widely recognised as the central,
oldest and most influential institution in the black community (Lincoln and Mamiya
1990). It has been the organisational and cultural matrix from which many black social
institutions and forms of artistic expression emerged and have been sustained over the past
250 years. But even more critically, the black church is the spiritual ark that also preserved
and empowered black people socially, psychologically and physically during and after
slavery (Miller 2001). Surveys indicate that four out of five blacks belong to a faith tradition
(CDC 1999) and that 97% of black people in the USA claim some religious affiliation
(Dawson et al. 1994).The black church wields a potent influence, on many levels, in the lives of churchgoers(Lincoln and Mamiya 1990, Douglas 1999). Church affiliation is strong among all
socioeconomic levels of black people, and is often a significant element of the social lives
and networks of blacks. But what is also striking is the influence it wields indirectly in the
lives of those blacks that are not churchgoers. Even if as adults they no longer embrace the
church or religious principles, many blacks have been profoundly influenced by the church494E. G. Ward

...read the full article at the link above

[freethought gal]

57. What if I LIKE flinging poo?

:evilgrin:

Anyway, I only blame the 70% of African-Americans who voted for Prop 8. I also blame everybody else who did.

[NJPuggle]

68. I blame EVERYBODY who voted yes on 8 regardless of color

And fling poo on them.

[bluedawg12]

83. Nice side step- but I don't care about everyone

I wouldn't waste a breath on white fundy RW'ers.

But, the AA community is important to me, and I beleive to the GLBT community.

And all of this evasion and denial does not change the truth, nor lead to true change:

>>Both directly and indirectly, black churches have been identified as fostering
homophobia—a fear or contempt for homosexuals and behaviour based upon such
feelings—playing an important role in its genesis, legitimation and weekly reinforcement
in black communities (Dyson 1996). <<

[sui generis]

65. priya, I added a clarification in my post

Went away for my birthday dinner last night and came back to discover I was a poo flinging racist.

I think the point got lost entirely. If some Americans think discrimination against skin color is bad but discrimination against the idea of gay Americans getting married is acceptable, then discrimination against any idea you can't see, prove, or disprove is a very dangerous place for us to be.

Of course mentioning skin color or cultural origin in any context is anathema, but the point was that I was pissed off at everyone who voted FOR OBAMA, and AGAINST US.

I swear some days here are almost more trying than is worth it . . . but on the plus side most people got it.

Happy Birthday to me. I are really fucking old, or at least, I feel that way with this hangover. Oy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. happy birthday. i didnt think you were poo flinging.

[sui generis]

74. whew!

a couple of other people did but I think it got straightened out.

I remember when Texas and other states passed their constitutional amendments how GLBT was really down in the dumps more than active. I am so happy to see us (rather, more of us) standing up and DOING something after getting knocked on our asses.

Keep up the good works Lioness! :hi:

[Wiegee]

75. This whole discussion breaks my heart.

"Great, lets start with a premise, accusing a whole race of being bigots will not help our cause. Why? Because when people get defensive they get mean."

Thank you.

I am white woman with a black girlfriend. Her sister is also a lesbian, and she and her female partner just had a baby two weeks ago. My girlfriend's best friend is black and M2F. Their families accept and love them all for who they are. These folks share the struggle of the GLBT community.

I can't stand this laying of blame at the feet of the black community. I understand that homophobia is a problem in some quarters of the black community, but the anger doesn't seem to have that narrow of a target.

And as a target, the anger misses the mark. There is nothing inherently black about homophobia. It seems to be, to me, directly tied to a stream of religious thought. There is where the angry energy should be directed, perhaps. And even there, there is nothing that demands a person of faith must be a person against If more allies could be made amongst the religious, we'd see more people voting in favor of equal rights among black, white, hispanic and all other kinds of voters.

I do know, from talking to my girlfriend, though, that this anger directed at the black community hurts. And I don't see at all how it's productive.

[mitchtv]

79. Let the blame fall on the voters

Blacks overwelmingly supported 8, which is really disappointing to me , because I has (wrongly) assumed that they have a generally more astute take on divisive politics of the right. I see now I was wrong. It hurts, They have signed on as my enemy just like the rest off the socalled christians. no more no less. I deeply resent DU'rs now trying to blame Gays for the bigotry.As for the socalled good christians; Get busy reclaiming your pulpits "evil flourishes when Good men do nothing"

[Wiegee]

89. Did I understand correctly?

Blacks overwelmingly supported 8, which is really disappointing to me , because I has (wrongly) assumed that they have a generally more astute take on divisive politics of the right. I see now I was wrong. It hurts, They have signed on as my enemy

How can you say "they have signed on as my enemy"? Who is "they"?

If you see my girlfriend walking down the street, are you going to assume she is the enemy because of how she looks?

She's as black as she is a lesbian. Would you have her divide her loyalties? Parcel herself out into friendly and enemy camps? What the hell?

[bluedawg12]

97. Just curious, does her own community support her as gay?

Just wondering because everything I have read so far talks about how difficult it is for AA GLBT's in their own culture.

Just speaking for myself, I don't make decisions on sight with people walking down the street.

But it's funny, when I talk to folks I can feel those who hold back, are suspcious, judgemental, of any hue.

So, I'll reserve sniffing out bigots on a one by one basis, of all ethnic backgrounds. Because I actually have a deep respect for the rights of others and chose not to judge hem by race, or ethnicity.

Odd, how I expect others to do the same for me about orientation. Odd, how I resent being called immoral, an abomination, an affront to God's law, and a danger to society by people who have never EVER met me.

[Wiegee]

113. Well, complicated answer

Her family, undoubtably. Her mother (dad isn't in the picture) has made it clear to friends and family that her daughters are loved and accepted.

But then, her family also isn't religious and doesn't go to church - well, her sister and her sister's partner do, but it's a gay-friendly church with an openly gay minister. Her mom is one of the best kind of parents, the kind that wants happiness for her children above all else.

My girlfriend is somewhat shy in general and doesn't have a wide circle of friends or get involved in a lot of activities or organizations, so I can't really speak about those sort of settings.

I can tell you that she is fierce, however, in not being afraid to show our affection in public. She's awesome like that :)

[bluedawg12]

82. No one is "accusing" a "race" it is cultural insitutionalized

Opinions are fine. But no one ever seems to go beyond. "Here's what I think. My experience."

Because this issue is real and concerning and pushing it under the rug does not help.

here's a book published on this very topic by a black, lesbian, Rev.

A new book out on AA chuch's teaching by AA rev who is gay

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/History_of_homophobia...

>>"The book, Their Own Receive Them Not: African American Lesbian and Gays in Black Churches, written by Rev. Horace L. Griffin, an Episcopal priest, is billed as an attempt to break "hundreds of years of silence," arguing that homophobia in the historically black church has reached "crisis" proportion.

"The black church's teaching that homosexuality is immoral has created a crisis for lesbian and gay Christians in black churches," Rev. Griffin writes in the preface. "This black-church-sanctioned homophobia produces a lot of twisted black people."

According to a press release, Rev. Griffin, who is black and gay, grew up in a Missionary Baptist church and through his life and church experience, has witnessed how "black church leaders and congregants have been resistant and even closed in treating gay and heterosexual congregants equally or, in many cases, of simply offering compassion to gay people."

Griffin compares the plight of black gays and lesbians to "a game of Russian roulette," where the children of the church are no longer welcomed by the church, and black lesbian and gay Christians find themselves in "no-win situations," which end up robbing them of "their soul, if not their integrity, family and lives."

"Until black church leaders adopt different Christian approaches, 'Down Low' practices will continue," concludes Griffin. <<

[NorthernSpy]

98. I know a lost cause when I see one.

Reading through the posts in this thread, I'm reminded of why the Left wandered the desert for so long, until Obama helped us find a way out of the wilderness.


The fact is this: Yes on 8 won because its backers were willing to step out of their cookie-cutter Mormon suburban world, and find out how to persuade people they have rather little in common with. In fact, this meant working closely with those who hold deeply negative views about Mormon beliefs -- including the fundamentalist Christians who had recently succeeded in destroying the chances of the first Mormon presidential candidate by gleefully spreading anti-Mormon propaganda. You think that didn't rankle?


The Yes campaigners won by putting their interests -- as they saw them -- ahead of their emotions. They won by refusing to fall into the kind of toxic identity politics that leads embattled groups to prize tit-for-tat vindication over victory.


Deride them as ante-deluvian bigots if you want, but they overcame a 17-point deficit by doing the hard, expensive work of learning how their intended audience thought, and then crafting a message that would have the desired effect.


That's the spirit that is lacking here.

[curse of greyface]

101. I wish I could recommend just this post. fantastic words.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

121. the left didnt win under obama, democrats did. anyone who says otherwise

has never heard a speech given by obama. wandering in the desert hardly qualifies as 8 years we lost the white house. 2 years ago we won major victories in the senate and the house. that had little to do w.obama.

yes the mormons won this and we ran a bad campaign

but this is hardly a lost cause.

[Duncan Grant]

123. Thank you for that.

I think gay reaction to the votes in California, Florida, Arizona and Arkansas are making the "party unity" cheerleaders nervous. Funny how that party unity thing doesn't work as well for us as it does other key constituencies. It's heresy to bring it up, but it's the truth.

[readmoreoften]

102. Personally, the black/asian/hispanic gay people I know live in my neighborhood.

My question is: why aren't there any black/asian/hispanic gay people in all these people's neighborhoods?

How about we get some REAL GENERIC gay people on TV? Fat Jewish gay baristas? Black lesbian femme secretaries? Butch latina pharmacy assistants? Filipino trannygirls working the cosmetics counter? Half-Chinese, half-Italian gay dockworkers?

What about documentaries about us on PBS? What about the responsibility of STRAIGHT PEOPLE in educating themselves.

[Jamastiene]

115. How wrong am I

for thinking how sexy a couple of those you mention would look to me? "Black lesbian femme secretaries? Butch latina pharmacy assistants?" I could actually go for either of those. :loveya:

Instead, all we get on television are cookie cutter carbon copies time and again. I wish you worked in television making the decisions about what characters to show. :D

[readmoreoften]

117. Yeah I wish I worked in television too. I did have a music video on LOGO, tho.

Got paid $200 for it.

[Neecy]

122. this thread has been interesting

I love you all, but really I'm disturbed to see our guest poster run out of here in such a brutal fashion. I understand the rage - I feel it myself, Tuesday night was the same punch in the gut I felt when Dan White got off - but she was trying to tell us a couple of things that perhaps offended our sensibilities but that we need to understand to move forward.

The 'white privilege' perception exists and it's what most of her arguments boiled down to, finger-snapping stereotypes aside. That's why a civil rights approach to our issues offends so many in the AA community, even as our civil rights are almost nonexistent and getting more constrained by the year. There are two ghettos in San Francisco, one gay and one black. Visit Hunters Point and then take a ride down to the Castro and understand why most urban African Americans think we're doing pretty well. Same with South Central LA and West Hollywood. Perception is everything. When I lived in Noe Valley, could you imagine the reaction I'd get in Hunters Point if I went down there to lecture voters on my civil rights and rage about how they voted on Prop 8? I'd be told to fuck off and in a hurry. So much of urban life comes down to economics.

I don't know, honestly, how to get past the 'white privilege' perception. To some extent it's real. As a white lesbian I've probably done much better economically than if I had been born a black lesbian. Racism still trumps sexual orientation.

If the term 'civil rights' is offensive - and it clearly rubs the wrong way - taking a human rights approach would probably be more productive. But I honestly don't know how we get past the issue of economics - working class and poor gays and lesbians certainly do exist but we don't give them much of a role in our own culture. And that needs to change.

It's easy to say we need to build bridges, but there are real issues out there. And shouting someone down is probably not a good place to start.