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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:24 AM
Original message
I disagree with legal scholar Kenji Yoshino
In the January 13th, 2009 issue of The Advocate ("Prop 8: Which Way Now?") Kenji Yoshino argues that there is a lack of legal precedent for overturning state constitutional amendments as revisions, and he also implies that state supreme court justices should fear the political consequences of overturning Prop. 8, possibly in the form of a recall election. He feels that civil rights "ultimately depend on the population at large, rather than the tiny sliver of us who are lawyers." He feels that it would be much better if Prop. 8 is overturned by putting another measure on the ballot, as early as 2010, but more likely in 2012 once we have time to organize and raise the necessary funds.

I am no attorney myself, but this type of thinking seems to go against the entire concept of the gay and lesbian minority deserving equal protection under the law! Is he trying to talk us out of this?

In the CA Marriage Ruling the CA Supreme Court ruled that sexual orientation is a Suspect Classification, in other words, we are a minority worthy of special legal protections. (See BlueDawg12's posting http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x98255">here for a thorough explanation of the Equal Protection Clause) If I'm not mistaken, the California ruling was also cited as a legal precedent in the Connecticut marriage ruling, and it will likely prove to be important in any eventual Federal Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage. The CA Supreme Court must seal this deal by proving that the gay and lesbian community is indeed worthy of protection from the tyranny of the majority. They should view Proposition 8 as a challenge to their authority in upholding the Constitutional duty of Equal Protection, and they should meet this challenge head on.

There may not be an abudance of precedent for overturning state constitutional amendments, but then there was also no precedent for establishing gays and lesbians as a protected minority in the first place. This was not activism on behalf of the justices, it was a logical legal conclusion whose time has come. (If you want to see activism, just wait to see what happens if Prop. 8 is not overturned.)

I have little doubt that a majority of the general population would eventually vote in favor of gay marriage in California, if indeed this is not the case already. My point is this: If the CA Supreme Court uses its judicial power in a way that demonstrates the value of the status of sexual orientation as a protected class (by overturning Prop. 8), then this might make a stronger statement, within the legal realm, toward bringing about marriage equality in other states and eventually the Federal government itself. Marriage equality may be right around the corner in California, but how close is it in the red states? Don't we ultimately need to depend on lawyers enforcing the Equal Protection clause before we can see this happen across the nation?

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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. As a lawyer, I doubt the Ca Sup Ct will throw out Prop 8. The judges want to avoid a recall.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What you really mean is that they can be intimidated...

shouldn't the Judicial Branch of government be blind to political pressure?
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Ex Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. that's why federal judges have lifetime appointments
fact is, anyone who stands for reelection is by definition not immune to political pressure.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Another point: No CA supreme court justice has ever been recalled...

in a special recall election. Mr. Yoshino cites Rose Bird, but in fact she (and others) were defeated during their retention elections which happen automatically toward the end of the 12 year terms. Perhaps term limits would be a good thing.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. They may want to avoid political ramifications.
But they still have to address the question: was it an amendment or a revision to the constitution.

That doesn't seem as politically loaded a question as their May ruling.

Don't they have to be consistent in their rulings?

"Prop. 8 effectively superseded the California supreme court’s May 15 decision that the state constitution guaranteed same-sex couples the right to marry.- Tha Advocate article."
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think it is highly unlikely the court will overturn this
and I also think the likelihood of winning in 2012 isn't all that great. We probably really lost by about 7 to 8 since being on the no side gains about 3 to 4 percent. We also outspent our opponents which we probably won't do in 2012. I don't think we will gain that many points in 4 years.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. This case is unique. Rights being taken away from a suspect class by simple majority vote in a ...
referendum. I don't think any prior case is really on point.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. I entirely agree with the OP
With "friends" like Kenji, who needs enemies?

I believe there is enough language in the Sup Ct decision from earlier this year to overturn Prop 8 very easily. If they don't there will be a very conflicting set of messages out there.

I don't believe we should pay Kenji, or any of his other apologists, any mind whatsoever. It is far too early to give up.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. 2012? hmm that's a Presidential election
No support from the Dem Candidate, now support to the Dem candidates. and I mean none at all. Quid pro quo
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Lack of precedent" does not mean "should and will never happen"
Case in point: Madison v. Marbury, wherein the Supreme Court -- for the first time and entirely without precedent -- defined its authority as final arbitrator of the Constitution and declared that it had the power to overturn statutes decided to be contrary to that Constitution.

The California Constitution itself makes a distinction between "amendment" and "revision." That this distinction has never been defended in court is irrelevant, and does not change the state Supreme Court's responsibility to make that distinction.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The amicus briefs filed in this case cite US Supreme Court case Romer v. Evans...
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/documents/s168047-letter-support-monterey.pdf


The United States Supreme Court, also, has recognized that an enactment - enactment of a State Constitutional provision by the initiative process - which removes the equal protection of laws of a class of citizens, subjecting them to discrimination and limited status, violates "our constitutional tradition' and "rule of law". (Romer v. Evans (1997) 517 U.S. 620, 633.) Proposition 8 would, if validated, be just such a law. As shown in Romer, the fact that discrimination is written into the State Constitution does not mean it does not violate the foundations of our Constitutional theories. Passage and enforcement of such a law is anathema to the very principle of equal protection, a bedrock principle of this State and this Nation.


from a letter submitted by the Constitutional Law Center of the Monterey College of Law.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It will be very intersting to see if that precedent holds in this situation
The Colorado constitutional amendment at the heart of Romer v. Evans effectively stripped all possible civil rights from people with regards to "homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships," including many rights that had been legally recognized and upheld by the state courts for many years. California's constitutional amendment eliminated a single right that, until a few month earlier, had never been recognized as existing within that state. The cases are parallel, but I'm not sure they would be close enough for the precedent to be applied.

Still, looking at the ruling itself, there seems to be bits and pieces that could be used, either by the California Supreme Court, a US Federal Court or the US Supreme Court, to strike down Prop. 8. Ultimately, it would come down to whether gay people have equal protection under the 14th Amendment, which has nothing to do with overturning the measure on the technical difference between an amendment and a revision.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. This is where I am confused, though...

for the US Supreme Court to give gays and lesbians protected status with strict consideration as a Suspect Class wouldn't they also have to first come to the same conclusions as the CA Supreme Court? I realize that the CA Supreme Court ruling sets a precedent, but what the Federal Court considers a suspect classification is not necessarilly the same thing.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Keep in mind too...

the CA Supreme Court ruled that marriage is a Fundamental Right. The above cited amicus brief went so far as to call it an unalienable right. By redefining marriage, the initiative attempts to change the very nature of this fundamental right so that it excludes the protected class. This would be like taking the Declaration of Independence and rewriting it so that it stated "all men are created equal and endowed with certain unalienable rights, except where to comes to heterosexuals who have the exclusive rights to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness in all of the avenues provided through marriage."
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm reading the amicus curiae
it's in .pdf so I can't copy and paste, but, to recap what this particular amicus brief says is stating:

1.) violation of equal protection for a suspect group, with regards to the fundamental right to marry.
2.) violation of revision constitution procedure, through a simple majority vote.

AntiFascist, I know there are several amicus briefs filed, this is one of them, however, do you recall after the CSC reviewed all of the friend of court briefs, we had a discussion here, and someone pointed out that the Court actually made a comment on some legal principle about rewording that was helpful to our side?

Some thought the Court was tipping it's hand in regard to a favorable ruling.I wonder if you recall what that helpful comment from the Court was, as it might be a clue as what they see as the governing legal principle?

I'd rather have a "small sliver of attorneys" fight for all of our rights, than a "small sliver of the population" take them away.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The current core challenge is: improper use of initiative in a matter of civil rights.
This is the basis of the legal challenge per:

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/relationships/37706prs20081105.html

Legal Papers Claim Initiative Procedure Cannot Be Used To Undermine the Constitution's Core Commitment To Equality For Everyone

"SAN FRANCISCO – The American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights filed a writ petition before the California Supreme Court today urging the court to invalidate Proposition 8 if it passes. The petition charges that Proposition 8 is invalid because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the constitution's core commitment to equality for everyone by eliminating a fundamental right from just one group – lesbian and gay Californians. Proposition 8 also improperly attempts to prevent the courts from exercising their essential constitutional role of protecting the equal protection rights of minorities. According to the California Constitution, such radical changes to the organizing principles of state government cannot be made by simple majority vote through the initiative process, but instead must, at a minimum, go through the state legislature first.

<snip>

"Historically, courts are reluctant to get involved in disputes if they can avoid doing so," said Shannon Minter, Legal Director of NCLR. "It is not uncommon for the court to wait to see what happens at the polls before considering these legal arguments. However, now that Proposition 8 may pass, the courts will have to weigh in and we believe they will agree that Proposition 8 should never have been on the ballot in the first place."

........

The OP in the Advocate article opined that this strategy was a long shot, as the Courts tend to rule against State Constituional "revision" cases. However, according to the ACLU piece, that is incorrect.

>>This would not be the first time the court has struck down an improper voter initiative. In 1990, the court stuck down an initiative that would have added a provision to the California Constitution stating that the "Constitution shall not be construed by the courts to afford greater rights to criminal defendants than those afforded by the Constitution of the United States." That measure was invalid because it improperly attempted to strip California's courts of their role as independent interpreters of the state's constitution.<<







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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. See post 18 below...

the court wants to make a separate decision (separate from the question of revision vs. amendment) on whether the initiative violates the separation of powers (which is also covered in several of the amicus briefs). This relates directly to the judiciary's role in enforcing the Equal Protection clause. Also, if I remember correctly, the Court does not feel it needs to hear evidence outside of purely legal arguments, which could indicate that there are relatively simple legal arguments to made for overturning Prop. 8. Remember that Prop 8 was drafted before the CA Marriage Ruling, and the marriage ruling changed everything.
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. So what you are saying is we are back to that "suspect " thing
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 01:22 PM by Ioo
Sorry I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

I read some long thing about how the courts over the years had made some types of classification for people, and some classes required a harder look than others...

So we are back to that question of DOES A COURT, CA OR US, MAKE G&L A suspect CLASS? Right?

And if the answer is yes, did not the state of CA do that when they ruled in March?
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. "Did not the state of CA do that when they ruled in March"
The California court ruled using the "rational scrutiny" standard. Rational scrutiny is the principle standard used in American law to distinguish between different groups having different rights, for example, between the rights of convicted felons and those without a felony conviction. It was the foundation for Romer v. Evans and for Lawrence v. Texas, according to the Wikipedia article for suspect classification, and I'm pretty sure it was the basis of the ruling in California.

As for what makes up a suspect class, I will refer you to the lede in the above-linked Wikipedia article. It would appear that, at least nationally, sexual orientation is not considered a suspect classification.

As to whether it needs to be, I don't believe so. The courts have ruled in favor of disability rights and the rights of people regardless of political affiliation, and neither disability nor political affiliation are suspect classes.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The California court ruled using "strict scrutiny" which is afforded to a suspect classification...

In the past, the California court has provided the class of women with narrower scrutiny than the Federal courts, so it is not uncommon for the state constitution to differ from the federal interpretation in this manner. According to the Wiki article:


Strict scrutiny is applied to regulations that affect groups that fall under a "suspect classification." Intermediate scrutiny is applied to groups that fall under a "quasi-suspect classification." Rational basis scrutiny is applied to all other discriminatory statutes.


Notice that gays and lesbians are not even considered a quasi-suspect classfication, we are given the full suspect classification that is often used for racial minorities.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I sit corrected
The ruling (text, PDF) is 172 pages long, so it is easy to miss a few things. Looking for the phrase "suspect classification," I found this starting at the bottom of page 9:

As we shall explain, although we do not agree with the claim advanced by the parties challenging the validity of the current statutory scheme that the applicable statutes properly should be viewed as an instance of discrimination on the basis of the suspect characteristic of sex or gender and should be subjected to strict scrutiny on that ground, we conclude that strict scrutiny nonetheless is applicable here because (1) the statutes in question properly must be understood as classifying or discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, a characteristic that we conclude represents — like gender, race, and religion — a constitutionally suspect basis upon which to impose differential treatment, and (2) the differential treatment at issue impinges upon a same-sex couple’s fundamental interest in having their family relationship accorded the same respect and dignity enjoyed by an opposite-sex couple.

Under the strict scrutiny standard, unlike the rational basis standard, in order to demonstrate the constitutional validity of a challenged statutory classification the state must establish (1) that the state interest intended to be served by the differential treatment not only is a constitutionally legitimate interest, but is a compelling state interest, and (2) that the differential treatment not only is reasonably related to but is necessary to serve that compelling state interest. Applying this standard to the statutory classification here at issue, we conclude that the purpose underlying differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples embodied in California’s current marriage statutes — the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage — cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest for purposes of the equal protection clause, or as necessary to serve such an interest.

A number of factors lead us to this conclusion. First, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples; permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage, because same-sex couples who choose to marry will be subject to the same obligations and duties that currently are imposed on married opposite-sex couples. Second, retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same-sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same-sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same-sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite-sex couples. Third, because of the widespread disparagement that gay individuals historically have faced, it is all the more probable that excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage is likely to be viewed as reflecting an official view that their committed relationships are of lesser stature than the comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples. Finally, retaining the designation of marriage exclusively for opposite sex couples and providing only a separate and distinct designation for same-sex couples may well have the effect of perpetuating a more general premise — now emphatically rejected by this state — that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects “second-class citizens” who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples. Under these circumstances, we cannot find that retention of the traditional definition of marriage constitutes a compelling state interest. Accordingly, we conclude that to the extent the current California statutory provisions limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, these statutes are unconstitutional.


Based on this wording, I think the use of Romer v. Evans as precedent is solid and might very well work.

This text also seems to hold open the possibility that Prop 8 might be upheld and the constitution deemed amended, but that the addition has no legal force. There is actually precedent for this: Until it was amended in 2006, the Alabama Constitution required the state to maintain a segregation of races in public schools and other such facilities. That bit had been invalid and unenforceable for 52 years, since the US Supreme Court issued its 1954 ruling in Brown v. Board of Education. It would be risky, but the Court could declare that the above ruling is not invalidated by Proposition 8 and that, despite the amended state constitution, the ban on same-sex marriage is still unconstitutional.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. This might make sense!
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 05:59 PM by AntiFascist
The people can define marriage any way they want to, but the Fundamental Right formerly known as marriage stands. From a legal point of view, everywhere the word marriage is used in a legal sense, it is also understood that it applies equally to gay and lesbian unions. This way the court doesn't have to rule on how the people decide to define a word, but everywhere the word is used it is understood, legally, that it applies to something broader than its definition.

On edit: maybe I should explain -

This all boils down to "due dilligence". The authors of Prop. 8 are trying to undo gay marriage using fear tactics and a simple change of a definition. The people, including a whole lot of gays and lesbians, were not made aware of the legal ramifications with respect to equal protection. This was not anticipated in arguments presented in the ballot disclosures, and the conclusions of the CA Marriage Ruling are not addressed in the initiative itself. Basically, the pro-Prop 8 people were trying for the easy way out. I would even suggest that Prop. 8 is not so much the result of "tyranny of the majority" as it is a lack of full disclosure. So, if the people want to change the definition of marriage that's fine, we just need to add a few extra words to the "marriage" certificates.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. You might find this of interest.
The fact that the CSC called for "strict scrutiny" rather than a lesser degrees of judicial review, such as, "intermediate scrutiny" or "rational basis" means that even before Hate8 the CSC had already considered same - sex couple as meriting a higher standard of judicial review of legislation because same sex couples qualified as a suspect group ( laws against us are suspect-not us)

Suspect groups are:

“discrete and insular minorities” who have historically faced extensive unjustifiable discrimination,

who are unable to remove themselves from the category,

and who have been the subject of such prejudice that they are unable to protect their interests in the legislative process.


I note that the argument that same sex couples "could remove themselves" from the category that subjects us to discrimination is the reason that saying being gay is a "choice" is so odious.

If the law accept's that being gay is a choice, then we, same sex couples, lose the protection afforded to suspect groups i.e strict scrutiny of legislation that may discriminate against us.

......

http://www.answers.com/topic/equal-protection-clause

Equal Protection Clause
Clause set out in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution that dictates that state governments cannot pass or enforce any laws based solely on a specific classification of person by race, gender, religion, ethnicity, or age.

US Supreme Court: Equal Protection
The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868, expressed the commitment of victorious Republican forces after the Civil War to include in the Constitution some protection for the equal rights of newly emancipated slaves.

The focus of the concern for equality was on the rights of African-Americans, but the framers of the Equal Protection Clause deliberately drafted it to provide protection for the equal rights of all persons.

By its terms, the Equal Protection Clause covers action only by state governments.

The Court has, in general, applied the same standards of equal treatment to action by Congress as it has to action by state legislatures.

Ideas of equality prevalent in the 1860s distinguished between civil, political, and social rights.

Equality with respect to civil rights meant equal status in the legal relations of the private economy, coupled with the right to enforce that equal status.

Equality with respect to political rights was more controversial at the outset, with many supporters of equal civil rights opposed to equal voting rights for African-Americans.

Social rights were those arising from the personal, noneconomic interactions among people, and there was general agreement in 1868 that the federal government ought not attempt to guarantee equality in that domain.

When the Court upheld a statute requiring railroads to segregate their passengers by race (Plessy v. Ferguson, 1896), it effectively abandoned the effort to assure civil equality for African-Americans through the Constitution.

The Court suggested that it would apply the Constitution with special care in cases involving disabilities imposed on “discrete and insular minorities” (Footnote Four, United States v. Carolene Products, 1938).

Strict Scrutiny

And in the course of upholding the internment of Japanese Americans during the war, it stated that classifications affecting racial minorities had to survive “strict scrutiny” (Korematsu v. United States, 1944), which the Japanese relocation measures did, the only instance in modern times when a race-discriminating government action has.

The final element of the revival of the Equal Protection Clause occurred when the Court invalidated a statute requiring the sterilization of violent recidivists, but not recidivists in white-collar crime, on the ground that classifications affecting fundamental interests had to be strictly scrutinized (Skinner v. Oklahoma, 1942).

During the 1960s the Supreme Court overturned numerous statutes requiring segregated public facilities and began to explore the broader implications of the doctrine it had begun to develop in the prior decade.

The Court under Chief Justice Warren Burger pulled back from the broader suggestions in these cases and ultimately held that strict scrutiny was appropriate only in cases involving traditional racial minorities and fundamental interests that were themselves spelled out in the Constitution (*San Antonio School District v. Rodriguez, 1973).

Formally, the problem of equal treatment arises when the government treats one group differently from another in the pursuit of some social goal.

Ordinarily, not all members of the disadvantaged group will contribute to the evil that the government is trying to avert and some members of the favored group will contribute to that evil. Classifications are therefore typically both “overinclusive” and “underinclusive.”

The problem for equal protection law is to specify what degree of lack of correspondence between the social goal and the classification used is permissible under what circumstances.

Equal protection law can be described in two ways.

“suspect” classifications

First, the Court distinguishes between statutes that themselves utilize racial or other “suspect” classifications and statutes that, though stated in nonracial terms, nonetheless have a “disparate impact” on racial minorities.

If the statutes use racial terms, they must survive strict scrutiny, which means that the legislature must be attempting to promote extremely important social goals, and the use of the racial category must be almost essential if those goals are to be served. The fit between the social goal and the classification must be extremely close.

In contrast, if the statutes are “facially neutral” in not using racial terms, the fact that they have a disparate impact in practice does not automatically lead to strict scrutiny. Only if the unfair impact on minorities is deliberately intended by the legislature will the Court demand strict scrutiny; otherwise, the legislation must simply be using a classification that is a rational method of accomplishing social goals that the legislature believes important.

The second description of equal protection law treats the distinction between “strict scrutiny” and “rational relationship” differently. On this view the Court has identified several types of classifications.

Some, such as racial classifications, call for strict scrutiny, where the fit between social goal and classification must be extremely close, whereas others, such as those basing government action on the ability of people to pay for services or on their participation in certain aspects of the private economy, are social and economic legislation where the legislature must merely be rational in using the classification to serve its goals.

In the latter cases, the fit between social goal and classification can be quite loose; the legislature can regulate many people who do not contribute to the evil it is trying to avert, and it can fail to regulate a great many people who do contribute to that evil.

Groups that are entitled to strict scrutiny, the Court has suggested, are

“discrete and insular minorities” who have historically faced extensive unjustifiable discrimination,

who are unable to remove themselves from the category,

and who have been the subject of such prejudice that they are unable to protect their interests in the legislative process.


“Intermediate” scrutiny.

There is, however, a third group of classifications that calls for “intermediate” scrutiny.

The doctrinal formulations of intermediate scrutiny have varied, as have the groups that elicit it.

The prototypical case involves a classification based on gender,

Intermediate scrutiny typically means that the Court will look somewhat skeptically on the claim that using a gender or similar classification is necessary to serve important social goals, but it will not demand the extraordinarily high levels of justification that it seeks in cases involving strict scrutiny.

Using intermediate scrutiny, the Court invalidated gender segregation in nursing schools (Mississippi University for Women v. Hogan, 1982) and Virginia's operation of a military college to train only men with a distinctive curriculum (United States v. Virginia, 1996). It upheld a requirement that only men register for the draft, at least when women are not eligible by statute for combat duty (Rostker v. Goldberg, 1981).

Analysts have had difficulty reconciling the Court's results with the doctrinal formulations it uses.

For example, the Court explicitly refrained from requiring either strict or intermediate scrutiny in a case involving discrimination against the mentally retarded, but it nonetheless found unconstitutional a city's attempt to bar a residential group home for the mentally retarded (City of Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, 1985).

Justice Thurgood Marshall criticized the Court for pretending that its equal protection analysis uses rigid categories, in which only a few “suspect” classifications or fundamental rights spelled out elsewhere in the Constitution receive special protection.

Rather, he argued, it has adjusted the degree of justification it demands according to a sensitive calculus that takes into account questions of degree.

These questions include how important the interest affected is, whether or not that interest is specifically protected by the Constitution, and how similar the affected group is to groups that have historically been the subjects of unjustifiable discrimination.

Justice John Paul Stevens suggested a similar approach, based on his view that “there is only one Equal Protection Clause” (Craig v. Boren, 1976), not several with different standards of review.

Commentators generally agree that Marshall's analysis and Stevens's make more sense of the Court's actual behavior, and that a more flexible approach than the Court's is appropriate to deal with the varied problems of classification that the Court confronts.

Some decisions suggest a relaxation of the Court's dedication to the “tier” approach. Romer v. Evans (1996) invalidated a Colorado initiative that denied homosexuals and lesbians the ability to secure “protected status” under state antidiscrimination rules, invoking rational-basis review and refraining from holding that sexual orientation was a suspect classification. *

Despite these decisions and academic criticisms, the Court seems committed to using the verbal formulations expressed in the “tier” approach.

Bibliography

Michael Kent Curtis, No State Shall Abridge: The Fourteenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights (1986).
Gerald Gunther, Foreword: In Search of Evolving Doctrine on a Changing Court: A Model for a Newer Equal Protection, Harvard Law Review 86 (1972): 1–48.
Kenneth W. Simons, Overinclusion and Underinclusion: A New Model, UCLA Law Review 36 (1989): 447–528

.........

Here is what CSC said before PHate8

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2...

>>In a 4-3 decision, the justices rule that people have a fundamental 'right to marry' the person of their choice and that gender restrictions violate the state Constitution's equal protection guarantee<<

By Maura Dolan, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
May 16, 2008

>>The 4-3 ruling declared that the state Constitution protects a fundamental "right to marry" that extends equally to same-sex couples. It tossed a highly emotional issue into the election year while opening the way for tens of thousands of gay people to wed in California, starting as early as mid-June.


The majority opinion, by Chief Justice Ronald M. George, declared that any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation will from this point on be constitutionally suspect in California in the same way as laws that discriminate by race or gender, making the state's high court the first in the nation to adopt such a stringent standard.

The decision was a bold surprise from a moderately conservative, Republican-dominated court that legal scholars have long dubbed "cautious," and experts said it was likely to influence other courts around the country.

But the scope of the court's decision could be thrown into question by an initiative already heading toward the November ballot. The initiative would amend the state Constitution to prohibit same-sex unions.<<
.........
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here is a thought of mine...
Not a lawyer...

I was speaking to a lawyer who found one thing very interesting when she read the finding of the court a few weeks back agreeing to take the case. One of the 3 things they said they wanted answered was "Did Prop 8 Violate the separation of powers" or something to that effect.

She commented to me that the NONE of the original lawsuits even had that as one of the reasons why they wanted Prop 8 Overturned... she said that by asking,, and in fact adding that, she felt that the CA-SC was giving itself a "get out of ruling free card" because it was real easy to use that as a reason for overturning something, without really ruling on the issue.

I am hard pressed to think that there is not some real pressure being pressed onto the justices to over turn this. The state of CA is economically in the crapper, and the CA Gov saw this as a real boon for jobs and so on. Everyone in a position of power wants this over turned. I would be hard pressed to think that there has not been discussions to the effect of "Do not worry about a recall, we have your back."

I have skin in this fight, Michael and I were married on Oct 16, 2008 in the City of Oakland CA.

Thoughts?
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. I think there is some real pressure in the over turn of Hate8
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 08:36 PM by bluedawg12
the Op in the original Advocate piece said that he thought the judges would face pressure from the right, not to over turn Hate8.

I disagree. I think they already took the issue head on when they originally found that it was unconstitutional to discriminate against same sex couples in regards to equal marriage rights.

The pressure now would seem to be for them to maintain legal consistency.

I'm not sure how the separation of powers would work for certain, I could speculate as a non-attorney.

Since the judicial is empowered to:

-->Judge when a law is unconstitutional

-->Has the responsibility to administer Constitutional law and to apply it to constitutional disputes

And since they already ruled on the constitutionality of same sex marriage in California, then, a proposition overturning their previous decision usurps that power.

I wish you and Michael the best. :hi:

BTW- As I am learning, we all have a dog in this fight. I have now come to understand, that even though some State by State battles will have to be waged, there is even hope for ass backward red States, as ultimately a Supreme Court decision, down the road, could make it Federally illegal to discriminate against us and sweep away State same sex marriage-ban laws and mini-DOMA's.

On edit:

I just found this. It's in .pdf

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/presscenter/newsreleases/NR66-08.PDF

Court ordered the first three litigants to brief and argue these three issues:

1.) Is it invalid because it is a revision rather than an amendment?

2.) Is it a separation of powers issue?

3.) How will it affect, if any, the marriages already performed before Prop8?


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