Need some help on Christianity and homosexuality (cross post)

[dsc]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x192212

One of my students, who is gay, was very shocked I went to church since she felt that all gays would go to Hell. Does anyone have a link to an easy to read resource about homosexuality and Christianity. Thanks in advance.

[HillbillyBob]

1. blueletterbible. *org or com , and biblegateway.com should be of help

Liberalslikechrist.org (some are org some are com. my partner is telling me to google it, but the download is slow here. Religioustolerance.org

[panader0]

2. Isn't there something in the Bible about

God "creating man in his own image"? That is all inclusive.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I found this at the UMC site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_umc.htm

Some quotes:

"Go back 150 years and you'll find good Christians arguing on behalf of slavery, offering all sorts of biblical justifications. Go back a few years, and churches, including the Southern Baptists, argued against ordaining women. Not just time changes, but people change. I honestly believe God is doing something new here." Mike Underhill, director of program ministries at Bering Memorial United Methodist Church, Houston, TX, 2005-FEB-12. (Actually, the Southern Baptists -- alone among American denominations -- have since reversed their stance for a second time and banned female ordination.)

"Some minds and hearts are not open to the great diversity of humankind - diversity created by God. God is all loving and merciful and cares a great deal for justice. I have trouble understanding this discrimination that causes so much hurt and pain for people who are gay and lesbian." Rev. Marilyn Meeker-Williams, senior pastor of Bering Memorial United Methodist Church, Houston, TX, 2005-FEB-12.

Of all of the Christian denominations in the United States, the Episcopal Church (USA), the Presbyterian Church (USA), and the United Methodist Church are probably experiencing the greatest amount of conflict over the rights of its gay and lesbian members. More liberal Christian denominations have already largely accepted homosexuality as simply another normal and natural sexual orientation. More conservative denominations have retained the historical Christian beliefs which condemn all same-sex behavior.

snip

The UMC members' beliefs about homosexuality are split along the same liberal/conservative lines as are present in other denominations. Most members fall into one of two groups:
bullet Liberals within the UMC generally look upon gay/lesbian ordination and same-sex marriage as civil rights issues -- fundamental human rights issues that should be available to persons of all sexual orientations. They also typically believe that a homosexuality is a normal, natural sexual orientation for a minority of people. It is not changeable nor is it chosen.

[TheWraith]

4. Ask her if she's ever eaten shrimp or lobster. Or ham. Or worn clothes of two different fibers.

Because according to Leviticus, shellfish is also an abomination equal to homosexuality. The ONLY thing that distinguishes them is that modern religious conservatives choose to talk about one and ignore the other. Eating pork and wearing "impure" clothing are also apparently hellworthy offenses.

Or point her to Galatians, where Paul says that the old Levitical laws no longer apply:

"Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV)

[YOY]

5. Ask her if God is a real asshole.

'Cause only a complete asshole would hate someone he/she supposedly created for being what they are.

[54anickel]

6. Nice article in Newsweek on the topic

http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/output/print

[QC]

7. Here's an excellent one.

http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

[bluedawg12]

8. There was a discussion on GD yesterday

about the Newsweek article, it may be of some interest because of the misconceptions some voiced about scripture and marriage,etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4645463

[54anickel]

11. Thank you. I missed that thread. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. Check out Soulforce.org

Plenty of stuff there, and a great organization.

I may be biased, though, because I got arrested with them (and promptly banned from West Point for five years).

[yardwork]

10. It's very sad that your young student, who is gay, believes that she is damned.

[bluedawg12]

12. Yeah, imagine a young person carrying around such imposed guilt

at a time when they are probably still discovering who they are.

There was an article in our local paper about a family who had deep, deep regrets when their child came to them and admitted being gay.

They rejected her statement, heaped all of the religious arguments on her, told her she didn't know her own true feelings yet and did everything their religious organization advised.

The parents were heart broken when she committed suicide and now speak out against the cruel and often destructive message that parents, organized religion and society imposes on very vulnerable young people struggling to come out without scorn, hate and guilt from outside.

[yardwork]

18. That's heartbreaking.

[dsc]

14. It is sad. I found a good pamphlet for her and will give it to her today

My church is a bit on the deep side in its literature but PFLAG had something more appropriate.

[yardwork]

17. Thank goodness she opened up to you and can provide a helping hand.

[Deep13]

13. Frankly, I don't think there is much theological basis for the liberal point of view.

JC specifically stated in one of the mutually contradicting gospels that the whole of the "Law," that is the 613 commandments of the OT, still apply. They are pretty specific about homosexuality. Paul's letters which predate the Gospels are far more relevant to Christian theology than the gospels anyway. Paula spells out the whole religion of redemption through the blood-sacrifice of JC and the rejection of the corporeal world. Even the gospels oppose anything that can be called pleasurable. Revelation says only those who do not contaminate themselves with women will go to heaven (which means no women) and then only 144,000 Jews will be taken. Paul says to avoid sexual relations at all, but suggests that one use marriage as a way to have sex without sin if one simply has to do it. Obviously, the instruction is directed at men. Paul specifically puts the no-no on male homosexuality at least in Romans (12 I think).

Only by selective reading of the Bible and subsequent ecclesiastical teaching can one cherry pick enough to make the liberal point of view plausible. The problem is not that conservatives interpret Christianity harshly, but that anyone treats this particular myth as though it had any basis in reality. If you want to read an ethical and moral system that is more compelling than the rehashed sentiments from the beatitudes, try Jainism.

[Eryemil]

15. I agree completely

How queers manage to deal with the cognitive dissonance of a belief system that actively hates them is beyond me.

[yardwork]

19. There isn't much theological basis for an opinion about sexuality one way or the other.

Paul never met Jesus and certainly does not speak for God. The Ten Commandments handed to Moses say nothing about sexuality one way or the other - if it were such an important issue, wouldn't it have been mentioned? Likewise, the Beatitudes from Jesus don't mention sexuality. Jesus says that the previous laws are not specific - He imposes a new set of much stricter guidelines in the Beatitudes. Much emphasis on warnings against hypocrisy, wealth, and judgement - nothing on sexuality.

The single line in Leviticus is ambiguous - it's not at all clear that this is a reference to gay sex. It appears to be a warning against treating women as equals of men. The rest of that whole section is routinely ignored by everyone.

Pfft. I honor the words and message of Jesus and see nothing there that says anything one way or the other about expressions of sexuality.

[Deep13]

22. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

We must be reading different Bibles. Jesus condemns divorce and even impure thoughts about sexuality. Frankly, while neither Paul nor any of the Gospel writers knew Jesus, Paul's writings, as I have said, are the foundational basis of that religion. At least his writings do not contradict each other. Christianity may have survived without Jesus, who in point of fact may not have existed, but not without either Paul or Constantine. Of course, Christian theology did not end with the dry ink of the Bible. The churches have consistently condemned sexuality since then. To name a non-reproductive sexual practice is to name a prohibition on it.

There are two passages in Lev. actually, and they are pretty clear on their meaning. Lev. 18:22, 20:13. I don't see how chalking this up to misogyny rather than homophobia helps the matter any.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

Further, the whole Christian system of belief is patriarchical in nature built around a marriage between a man and at least one woman. While the creation story does not specifically say "but not gays" it is implicite in the story. Likewise it is hard to miss the anti-gay, anti-woman message of the story of Lot and his unfortunate relatives.

You are of course free to pick and choose, but I have to wonder what good the Bible is as a holy book if parts of it are invalid. Relying solely on the teachings of JC, I don't see how they are either all that remarkable or all that good in some cases. An argument can be made that all they do is set up an impossible standard of behavior so that our inevitable failure keeps us in a sinful state and, therefore, in need of the churches. Also, they seem designed to keep us in a constant state of poverty too.

[yardwork]

24. I think - although I'm not certain - that we are generally in agreement.

I am Pagan, by the way.

[Deep13]

25. Just to be clear-my criticism is directed at religion, NOT homosexuality. nt

[yardwork]

26. I know.

[Orsino]

20. If we confine "theological" to mean the Bible, of course.

As you say, we should feel free to shop elsewhere.

[Deep13]

23. The OP refered to Christianity.

Christian theology and dogma after the Bible was complied and edited is equally harsh on any sexuality except reproductive and, in fact, any form of pleasure.

There are philosophical systems that do not necessarily condemn homosexuality, but I would not call it "theology."

[freestyle]

16. integrityusa.org has lots of resources

Integrity is the GLBT and allies group working for full inclusion in the Episcopal Church. Your student sounds like someone who was wounded by religion and whose mind is now closed on the subject. Pushing people away from God is one of the greatest sins of religious conservatives.

[SacredCow]

21. Have her watch "For the Bible Tells Me So".... n/t

[LeftHander]

27. Tell him god hates shell fish in addition to homosexuals....

And that he is to beat his future wife regularly with a stick no bigger than his thumb.

If he says that sounds silly tell him it is all in bible. And the bible is the word of god.

Get with the program.

No really....tell him that most of Christianity selectivly utilizes bits and pieces of the bible to utilizes people's faith to further personal ambition or social agendas that have nothing to do with faith. Unfortunately people do this because they can and they use religion as a means to focus personal intolerance and hatred towards minorities. In this contemporary case...it happens to be the LGBT communities.

GOD HATES SCALLOPS!

SELL YOUR DAUGHTER INTO SLAVERY!

BEAT YOUR WIFE...GOD APPROVES!