"the message needs to be broadcast that alternative medicine is a colossal waste of money"

[FLAprogressive]

IT IS, you might suppose, always good to have an alternative. In medicine, though, that is a controversial proposition. Alternative and complementary medicine are mostly quackery. Yet they are very popular. Clearly, they have something that mainstream medicine does not. The question is, what?

A few treatments (mostly herbs containing active drug molecules) do have proven benefits. A few others look worthy of further investigation. But from acupuncture, via homeopathy, to “quantum healing”, the vast majority, some 95%, offer nothing more than the placebo effect—the strange and inadequately explained tendency of certain medical conditions to respond to anything the patient thinks is directed at treating them, even when the treatment in question could not possibly have a direct effect on the disease.

It is thus a great pity that Edzard Ernst, the first professor of alternative medicine (that is, real scientific professor) and the man who demonstrated that 95% of the industry was hokum, is about to retire early (see article). It is an even greater pity that funding to his department at Britain’s Exeter University looks likely to be cut. For the message needs to be broadcast that alternative medicine is a colossal waste of money. Globally, the industry is estimated to be worth some $60 billion a year. That is a lot to pay for placebos.

http://www.economist.com/node/18712290?story_id=18712290&fsrc=rss

[JDPriestly]

1. I am quite skeptical, but had one acupuncture treatment that

was very helpful. That is my entire experience. Massage for health purposes is a relaxing experience, and relaxing is one of the primary secrets to staying healthy. Relaxing is good for the heart, the back and the mind.

Obviously, you can't cure the measles with a massage. So, it isn't that alternative medicine is "bad." It's just that it doesn't treat the same problems that traditional medicine treats -- and vice versa.

[pnwmom]

2. That's funny. I remember when folic acid, for example,

was being recommended by practitioners of alternative medicine -- at least a decade before conventional medicine caught on, and began to recommend high doses for all pregnant women.

The sad fact is that conventional medicine pushes patentable drugs made by big pharma -- and is less interested in vitamins and minerals because there is little profit to be made. The only way to say that alternative medicine is a waste of money is to say that such things as good nutrition and vitamins and minerals are a waste of money.

[WolverineDG]

15. Using aloe vera for sunburns (or anything) was also considered "woo"

and now you can't trip over anything without it having aloe vera in it.

Same thing for shark cartilage. Woo!

dg

[Confusious]

44. A stopped clock is right twice a day. nt

[sunwyn]

3. I just don't buy it. Our ancestors used alternative medicine.

Somehow our species survived. As to my own experience, I have lyme disease and no insurance. Without alternative medicine I would be living in excruciating pain most days. I utilize acupuncture, acupressure, herbs, supplements, and exercise. I have been a practicing herbalist for over 20 years. I see these articles all the time and have no doubt they are just more bs from Big Pharma

[FLAprogressive]

4. Are you kidding me? Our ancestors had considerably shorter lifespans....

[ejpoeta]

5. well alternative medicine won't help you stop the plague, but it can help with

some things. they keep finding herbs and natural things that were used by 'medicine men' which they have made into pills. i am always skeptical of anything big pharma is involved with. i do not think alternative medicines should be treated as a waste of time. they are not a replacement for, but they do help some people with some things.

[Confusious]

45. We used what is classified as "alternative" for thousands of years

Didn't cure one disease, one broken arm, one wound.

100 years of modern science has made what was once fatal a nuisance.

[sunwyn]

6. Of course they did....but for someone to say that alternative medicine has no use...well, I think

they are wrong. Marijuana is a good example of the bias in our society against anything that doesn't come in a pill bottle and cost a fortune.

[alc]

7. of course it's bad - pharma doesn't get their cut

I could give lots of details but don't have time - need to go take my twice a day "dry eye" prescription meds (in case I don't have otc visine when my eyes get dry) then some other meds that work like marijuana but also have side effects include "anal leaking" and even death. Then get my kids ready for school with some pretty powerful prescription psych meds (the kids may want to run around at recess without that)

[Celebration]

11. "the kids may want to run around at recess without that"

:rofl:

[postulater]

8. Most back surgery is alternative medicine.

And wasteful too.

[mopinko]

9. the appeal is that you don't have to go to the doctor.

either because they don't like them or can't afford them, many people just wont go. so they try what is available before they break down and get some real medicine.
i predict that if we ever get actual universal health care these practices and products will mostly dry up. i would be very curious what the difference is between use in, say, the us and the uk. or canada.

[bemildred]

10. You can waste one hell of a lot of money with conventional medicine too.

Even more than with quackery. Quacks don't dare to really take you to the cleaners.

[Celebration]

12. Here's the thing, too

With alternative medicine, the money wasted is only MINE.

With conventional medicine, the money wasted is government money, causing my taxes to go up, or insurance money, causing my premiums to go up.

I'll worry about the money that I "waste" personally, thank you. Let TPTB worry about the government and insurance money wasted.

[trotsky]

16. Wrong.

"With alternative medicine, the money wasted is only MINE."

You couldn't be more wrong. Problem comes when people turn to "alternative" "medicine" first, forgoing evidence-based treatment. As is to be expected, their condition will continue to deteriorate, at which point many of them finally turn to evidence-based medicine. By then, their condition is MUCH more advanced and MUCH more difficult to treat, meaning it's MUCH more expensive to do so.

So yeah, taxes and insurance are paying for "alternative" "medicine" too.

[pnwmom]

17. Your views are outdated. There IS such a thing as alternative, "evidence based medicine."

And that is why more and more insurers are covering it.

www.bastyr.edu

"Bastyr University, located north of Seattle, Washington, is an accredited institution, internationally recognized as a pioneer in natural medicine. Bastyr is the largest university for natural health arts and sciences in the U.S., combining a multidisciplinary curriculum with leading-edge research and clinical training.

"Bastyr offers a range of graduate and undergraduate programs including naturopathic medicine, acupuncture and Oriental medicine, midwifery, nutrition, health psychology, exercise science and herbal sciences.

"Bastyr Center for Natural Health offers quality natural health care to the community while providing essential clinical training for students.

"Bastyr research evaluates natural medicine practices and has played a key role in the growth of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) research in the United States since 1986."

_________________________________

More and more, mainstream and alternative medical practitioners are working hand-in-hand. To take just one example, here is a list of mainstream, conventional medicine members of the Society for Acupuncture Research:

Academy of Oriental Medicine at Austin
Center for Integrative Medicine at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
Finger Lakes School of AOM of NYCC
Integrative Health Center of Chapel Hill
Minnesota College of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
New England School of Acupuncture
Oregon College of Oriental Medicine
National Federation of Chinese TCM Organizations
Program on Integrative Medicine at UNC - Chapel Hill, School of Medicine, Department of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
College of Traditional Acupuncture, UK
National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM)
University of Bridgeport Acupuncture Institute
Centro de Ciências Biológicas da UFSC
Council of Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
Won Institute of Graduate Studies
Penny George Institute for Health and Healing
Northwestern Health Sciences University
IBRATE - Instituto Brasileiro de Therapias e Ensino


http://www.acupunctureresearch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=91

[laconicsax]

18. Bastyr is a bastion of bullshit!

Here are some of the courses this 'reputable' institution offers.

-Spiritual Healing
-Homeopathy 1
-Auricular Theapy
-Past Life Regression
-Homeopathy 2
-Botanical Shamanism
-CranioSacral Therapy
-Homeopathy 3
-Tarot Card Reading
-Cleansing the Human Biofield

What's the evidence behind Tarot card reading again?

[pnwmom]

22. Link, please? n/t

[laconicsax]

27. It's all on their site.

www.bastyr.edu

[pnwmom]

29. No, it's not. Which is why you haven't provided a more specific link. n/t

[Celebration]

31. speaking of red herrings

They brought all this up before.

These classes are some fun adult classes that they offer to the community, not course work. They brought this up before. All sorts of colleges offer fun adult education classes--like gardening, astrology, etc. for the community. It has nothing to do with the course work for the regular students.

It is really a very silly criticism.

[BuddhaGirl]

52. +1

And the Mayo Clinic even offers integrative therapies OMG! Should the Mayo Clinic as a whole be dismissed because of that?? :rofl:

[laconicsax]

53. LOL!

Show me a reputable college that offers astrology courses.

[laconicsax]

34. Ok, I'll read it to you.

Start here: www.bastyr.edu

Click on Academic Programs: http://bastyr.edu/academic/profiles/

Click on Naturopathic Programs: http://bastyr.edu/education/naturopath/degree/curricula.asp

Click on any of the track programs (four-year or five-year A and B) and you will see the following courses: Homeopathy 1-3

Go back to the Academic Programs page and click on Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine: http://bastyr.edu/education/acupuncture/degree/training.asp

Click on any of the "Programs of Study" to get to this page: http://bastyr.edu/education/acupuncture/degree/program-information.asp

From there, you can see the specific course requirements which include Auricular Therapy. If you look at the Doctoral program, you'll see that Doctoral candidates learn how to cure cancer by sticking people with pins.

Now, go to the Continuing Education page: http://www.bastyr.edu/continuinged/default.asp and view the course calendar: http://www.bastyr.edu/continuinged/default.asp

The rest of the courses I listed (except Tarot which they don't seem to be offering in the near future) are all there. Now before you start with "These aren't required courses!" or "These are just fun courses that anyone can take," keep in mind that by hosting these courses as official Bastyr University programs, they are signing off on them as legitimate areas of study.

Last I checked, reputable institutions don't offer courses in bullshit. Caltech doesn't have courses on astrology, Oxford doesn't offer a degree in alchemy, and Harvard doesn't teach phrenology.

[pnwmom]

35. Right, there are no courses in Tarot cards taught by Bastyr

which I knew because I had searched the website. Also, practitioners at Bastyr don't use needles to cure cancer - they use them to relieve cancer PAIN.

As for Acupuncture, Oriental Medicine, and Auricular Therapy -- they are all areas of research and practice supported by the World Health Organization, which apparently isn't a firm believer in American "exceptionalism" with regard to medicine.

I'm not a believer in Homeopathy, but I'm also not a believer in mainstream allergy treatments - getting allergy shots to immunize the subject against the allergen -- and the main difference I see is that one practitioner puts substances under the tongue and the other injects them.

Here is a link to the World Health Organization's statement about Auricular Therapy, a type of Acupuncture involving the ear.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:U-bcM-Vc_g8J:whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1991/WHO_TRM_91.2.pdf+%22auricular+therapy%22+world+health+organization&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjBkCTCfebo81EEBmnjUpFjbTKhokXqsIehFHTajCHPDaPGq-TGEMJRsjmO6jPGzO1kI1vYEwmroHGbX8FCwSIyHmt8KT05GJiz3WFPjANsidpkCjh6yv3zxZ4zRGAHcJELRIXK&sig=AHIEtbRpTFqJHFL09xxfSHbCiwyyzYz4IA

[laconicsax]

37. *yawn*

Wake me when you have something consequential to say.

[pnwmom]

38. Ah, yes, another American exceptionalist. n/t

[laconicsax]

41. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

:boring:

[trotsky]

19. Not interested in your red herring right now.

Do you agree or disagree that someone pursuing an "alternative" treatment that doesn't work, will end up costing taxpayers and insurers more once their condition worsens and they turn to "conventional" treatment?

That is the point being argued.

[pnwmom]

21. Of course! Pursuing ANY treatment that doesn't work, whether alternative or conventional,

will automatically cost people more than FIRST pursuing a treatment that DOES work.

Your error is to assume that the current conventional treatment is always the better one. The truth is that sometimes conventional doctors learn from alternative doctors - which is why I also appended the list of conventional medical centers that use or study acupuncture.

In my case, pursuing conventional medical treatments for 10 years for my digestive and other problems didn't work, and the treatments and tests were costly. You could even say they were a WASTE. But I was lucky enough finally to get referred to a mainstream G.I. specialist who told me to try instead what was -- at that time -- a radical idea: to eliminate gluten from my diet (even though I hadn't tested positive on all the Celiac tests). Something that simple and cheap turned out to be the solution to my health problems. If I had gone to a naturopathic doctor years earlier, I would have found this solution years earlier, because naturopaths are much more aware of nutritional and food related problems than conventional doctors.

[trotsky]

23. Thanks for agreeing with me. n/t

[pnwmom]

24. Thanks for agreeing with me. Obviously it is better to first use the most effective

treatment, whether it comes from alternative medicine or conventional.

[trotsky]

26. Not addressing your red herring.

You agreed with my correction of the other poster, that's as far as this went.

[pnwmom]

28. You never said THIS was a red herring. To the contrary,

you agreed with it. Thanks again.

"Your error is to assume that the current conventional treatment is always the better one. The truth is that sometimes conventional doctors learn from alternative doctors - which is why I also appended the list of conventional medical centers that use or study acupuncture.

"In my case, pursuing conventional medical treatments for 10 years for my digestive and other problems didn't work, and the treatments and tests were costly. You could even say they were a WASTE. But I was lucky enough finally to get referred to a mainstream G.I. specialist who told me to try instead what was -- at that time -- a radical idea: to eliminate gluten from my diet (even though I hadn't tested positive on all the Celiac tests). Something that simple and cheap turned out to be the solution to my health problems. If I had gone to a naturopathic doctor years earlier, I would have found this solution years earlier, because naturopaths are much more aware of nutritional and food related problems than conventional doctors."

[trotsky]

32. Have fun!

TL;DNR

[Confusious]

46. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

Doesn't mean it gives good time all the time.

Probably took so long because of all the other bullshit cures they push. What if the guy screaming about the end of the world on the corner told you to eliminate gluten from your diet? Would you do it? If you say yes, you're a quack, if no... my point is made.

[uppityperson]

40. Bastyr does teach some good things but unfortunately too many who graduate from there turn out to be

scammers, selling crap for big bucks and pressuring people into things they don't need, but cost a lot. Having 1 foot in western medicine and the other in alternative/complimentary, I would never use Bastyr as an positive example.

[laconicsax]

47. You know the real irony?

Their sCAM degrees require an "ethics" course...

[Celebration]

33. I assume you have evidence of this

That is, your statement that people who seek alternative treatments first will cost the government and insurance companies more in the long run.

If you have evidence of this, please post it.

I certainly am not going to believe this just because you think so.

Link?

[pnwmom]

36. I did. I had almost a decade's worth of visits, tests, and treatments

before a G.I. specialist finally suggested I try something really *radical* (hah!) eliminate gluten (even though I hadn't had a positive result for the main Celiac test). Just based on my symptoms and ethnic background, a naturopath would have suggested that years before -- but the medical establishment thought it was an extremely rare problem and that the diet was much too hard.

The result: no more upper GI symptoms, no more lower GI symptoms, no more fibromyalgia, no more PLDS. And all it took was a simple, cheap, "alternative" treatment.

Fortunately, on the issue of gluten, mainstream docs are FINALLY starting to catch up. It turns out that gluten sensitivity is anything but rare; and it took the alternative practitioners to teach the conventional practitioners about this.

[bemildred]

43. That's what I mean.

MDs are great for acute care and surgery, but they see problems in terms of the services they provide; like for a little kid with a hammer, everything problem looks like a nail. They are not so good and much too expensive for mushier and less well-defined health issues, and for nutrition and other lifestyle issues there is nothing like reading a lot and trying things to see what works for you. You also have to watch out for the effects of time, what you need changes as you go along, and that's another thing that only you can really figure out. I don't mean by any of that to suggest that one ought to be gullible about all the twaddle and placebo-based remedies out there.

[uppityperson]

48. It is funny how a "G.I. specialist" figured out what was wrong and what to do about it, considering

your rant against MDs.

[pnwmom]

49. That's because I only ever went to regular medical doctors.

Show me where I ever ranted about M.D.'s.

I was lucky I finally found this GI specialist -- after ten years of seeing various internists - because he was one of the few at that point in time who would have suggested I try the diet even though I hadn't met the "gold standard" -- the diagnosis of Celiac by blood work and biopsy.

However, if I had gone to a naturopath years earlier, I would have almost certainly been diagnosed earlier, because they were ahead of the curve on the subject of gluten sensitivity -- the medical establishment, including my G.I. specialist and my current Internist, learned from them.

[uppityperson]

39. I had a quack try to take me to the cleaners. Sorry but no, I don't need a thousand dollars of

supplements and special water you hooked up to your computer every month and no I don't need a specially formulated thyroid hormone to help heal my thyroid since mine is dead, gone, no more. Why do I feel he wasn't listening to me? Maybe because he wasn't. Well, I "could" buy those same supplements online for a fraction of what he'd sell them to me for, but it just WOULDN'T be the SAME!!! Even if the exact same brand. He took me for $700 for "tests" and that advice and was very upset when I told him no.

[bemildred]

42. There's a lot of crap and utter horseshit out there, no doubt about it. nt

[pnwmom]

50. I've never gone to a quack. Where did you find yours and why did you go there? n/t

[uppityperson]

54. He is a naturopath specializing in thyroid issues.

[CanSocDem]

13. Mainstream medicine, on the other hand,....

...is what? A colossal success??? Financially, maybe.....but certainly not the grand institutional saviour of public health.

A nation of overweight, ill-informed, borderline psychotics demanding protection, is not a hallmark of success in the area of public health. It is a sign of delusion.

Whose delusion are you going to believe...???

If you believe ModernMedicineInc., you play into their fantasy that, only they can heal you. Sadly, most of their defenders are those who suffer that delusion.

Despite the fact that most of the people who originally started here(at DU), did so in the complete and utter belief of the grandest placebo of all.... electing a democrat who would solve all the problems....they still roundly dismiss 'the placebo effect' in medicine. Why is that????

Because:
"...the strange and inadequately explained tendency of certain medical conditions to respond to anything the patient thinks is directed at treating them, even when the treatment in question could not possibly have a direct effect on the disease."

Capitalism is a placebo.

.

[bemildred]

14. I have to say that one sentence annoys me:

"...the strange and inadequately explained tendency of certain medical conditions to respond to anything the patient thinks is directed at treating them, even when the treatment in question could not possibly have a direct effect on the disease."

1. In the first place it is a matter of simple observation to note that the mind and body interact with each other, that the mind can and does affect the body, and vice versa, and that they are intimately related parts of one whole.

2.) In the second place, it is obvious that if something or other does directly affect a disease, than it can directly affect the disease, so it is counter-factual to say that "could not possibly have a direct effect on the disease". Underlying that babble lies the assumption that only things one knows about and approves of can directly affect a disease, i.e that cure of disease requires administrative approval to be valid.

[CanSocDem]

20. Indeed.

"Underlying that babble lies the assumption that only things one knows about and approves of can directly affect a disease, i.e that cure of disease requires administrative approval to be valid."

As you can see, many posters are quite content to suffer through their beliefs. It's as if there was some kind of 'nobility' attached to ill health.

And NOBODY wants to talk about "placebo's".......????!!!!

Certainly not those financially and emotionally attached to the big lie of modern medicine.

.

[FLAprogressive]

25. So many strawmen, one thread. What a surprise. No one can defend "alt med." without bringing up the

"BIG PHARMA" boogeyman

[pnwmom]

30. Clearly you missed this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=105135&mesg_id=105161

[astral]

51. The OP painted the topic with a pretty broad brush.

"Regular," "Non-Alternative" medicine has drugs derived from natural substances. The only way to ingest anything that may be helpful to you would be to get a prescription and get it from a doctor. If the doc can't fix it, it can't be fixed.

Right?

Alternative medicine includes both curative and preventative. The mind and body connection are known to exist, hence that pesky 'placebo-effect,' which is in fact an effective treatment itself!

To just say the entire universe of "Alternative Medicine" is "Quackery" is silly to even argue.

I do not dispute there is a lot of 'quackery' going on there, but quackery is not limited to ALTERNATIVE medicine.

--- does it help to supplement?
--- is there such thing as a vitamin deficiency?
--- is there such thing as a mineral deficiency?
--- does it make any difference whatsoever what you eat?
--- can you get sick from eating badly?
--- can you get well by eating well?
--- does exercise / fresh air / sunshine matter?

Are any of those points considered 'alternative medicine?' Are any of those points 'quackery?'

What our world of science and medicine know at any point in time is not stagnant, it is not cast in stone, it is not complete, and it is certainly never 100% correct. We are constantly growing and learning and evolving and the body of knowledge is quite immense of new things that have not yet been accepted into mainstream medicine.

So no, "Alternative Medicine ***ISNT*** a Colossal Waste of Money." You do have to beware, but be VERY-ware of regular medical doctors, as well!


I did learn something here, though, I learned I didn't really notice how to spell "Colossal" until just now.

[Philippine expat]

55. As someone who worked in "mainstream" medicine for

over 35 years i wholeheartedly disagree.
Many forms of alternative medicine are very helpful
for certain conditions

[laconicsax]

56. Totally!

Conditions like:

-A touch of the nerves
-A vague sense of unease.
-More money than sense.

[Philippine expat]

57. Totally

unfounded, unproven and asinine

[laconicsax]

58. Are you saying that CAM doesn't treat those conditions?

:shrug:

[SheilaT]

59. And of course, main stream conventional

medicine NEVER does harm.

Oh wait.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. I think there's something to be said for trying to harness the placebo effect.

And not all of it is placebo (and some of conventional medicine is placebo).

Like others have pointed out, substances and treatments that can't be patented and sold for lots of money tend not to be investigated under our system.