85 yr old sister in law has been taking 400 gms of Darvocet for years

[Peregrine Took]

following her back surgery.

Isn't this a lot for someone her age?

She claims that she's not addicted to it but I wonder...

Thanks for any information.

[MADem]

1. She's hooked, and that bum in the white coat is her dealer.

At her age though, it's a bit late to wean her off the stuff. She'd probably react poorly to the stress of it all.

They probably could have given her the pills and skipped the surgery.

[Warpy]

4. Grow up.

Not everybody on pain medicine is an addict.

[MADem]

6. YOU grow up. I'm not being judgmental. I'm being factual.

Anyone on that dose for that long IS addicted. Try taking it away from her, and see what happens. You think she'll shrug and say "Hand me the aspirin?" Please.

She's probably on it because the doc fucked up the surgery.

Most people on pain medicine ARE addicted to it. They go into harsh and agonizing withdrawal when the mediction is removed. That, dear, is the DEFINITION of addiction.

Do I think that western medicine does a shitty and insufficient job with pain management? Why yes, I do.

Do I think that western medicine could do a better and more compassionate job of it? Why yes, I do.

Do I think they could work harder to develop nerve blocking technologies that don't rely on harsh pharmaceuticals? I most certainly do.

But I'm not such a fucking Pollyanna that I deny the obvious. That dose, that long, that's addiction.

So, like I said, YOU grow up.

[aquart]

9. That is pure bullshit.

When my sister wakes up and doesn't need Percodan, she does not take any. And there is NO withdrawal. Because her pain is real. It's goddamn certified by the United States government.

You know what I get agonizing withdrawal from? Fucking Tylenol.

Maybe it's time we reviewed pain management in the United States. And our outdated preconceptions.

[MADem]

11. We're talking about Darvocet, which is defined as "habit forming."

The example provided is of a woman who is taking a set dose daily.

It's not "pure bullshit." It's fact. When a person who is taking a "habit forming" drug is denied that drug, they experience withdrawal symptoms. That, dear, is the definition of ADDICTION.

Don't shoot the fucking messenger, here. And don't cry "bullshit" when I'm simply stating fact. I've already made my views on pain management clear, so no need to repeat them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. I see your respect for modern medicine doesn't include painkillers.

[MADem]

25. Gee, there, DAVE, let me quote from a previous post in this very thread

Do I think that western medicine does a shitty and insufficient job with pain management? Why yes, I do.

Do I think that western medicine could do a better and more compassionate job of it? Why yes, I do.

Do I think they could work harder to develop nerve blocking technologies that don't rely on harsh pharmaceuticals? I most certainly do.


So, Dave, you want to retract that false assertion? Or what?

See, you "see" wrong.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. I used to respect you until you called Jet Travolta a fucked up kid.

Let's just say your bedside manner sucks.

David

[MADem]

27. His name was JETT, and he was an autistic teenager who was apparently

poorly served by his family and the cult they belong to. He absolutely WAS a fucked up kid. His parents did a very good job of fucking him up by not giving him the care he needed for his condition. You don't mitigate autism with vitamins and saunas, junk food and video games.

Let's just say you're overly concerned about my bedside manner, apparently. No need to chase me all over the board to tell me what you think of me...do it in the applicable thread. It's what normal people on discussion boards do. People will think you're a stalker otherwise.

Have a nice day, Dave.

:hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. That makes a lot of sense, NOT.

Posting one response to you is chasing you all over the board. Let's just say you're a little overly paranoid. I hope you have a Happy New Year.

David

[MADem]

29. Ah, learned that from Borat, that NOT thing?

I call it as I see it, DAVE.

Happy New Year to you, too. Hope you cheer up a bit.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. I'm as happy as I can be, people can judge you by your posts.

[MADem]

31. Yes, they certainly can!

:hi:

[Warpy]

13. That post was judgmental

as was the one I responded to.

Look up the dosages of Darvon. Look up its relative strength.

Look up what detox involves.

And stop judging people you don't know.

You're terrible at it.

[MADem]

16. Yeah, let's look those up, now, why don't we? What HAVE we learned?

For almost two decades, it ranked right behind Valium and Librium as one of America's most popular prescription drugs, averaging 39 million prescriptions a year between 1973 and 1975.

Then things began to go sour.

It started when propoxyphene (the generic name for Darvon) was cited in 589 overdose deaths in 23 U.S. cities. This led the Ralph Nader-affiliated Health Research Group to demand a federal ban on use of the painkiller.

Calling it "the deadliest prescription drug in the United States," the group argued that propoxyphene figures into thousands of deaths and medical emergencies each year -- many of them accidental overdoses.

It continued when the 1989 Darvon-related death of former NFL great John Matuszak prompted the group to renew its demand for removal of the drug from the U.S. market.

Somewhere in between, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration stepped up its campaign against Darvon, limiting how and when and for how long doctors could prescribe the drug......So what is propoxyphene?

Structurally, it's a relative of the synthetic narcotic, methadone. It's prescribed in two forms -- propoxyphene hydrochloride and propoxyphene napsylate -- for relief of mild to moderate pain.

.....Risks & Realities

When people run into problems with propoxyphene, it's often due in large part to the drug's ineffectiveness.

Since it's most often prescribed for relief of pain, propoxyphene can easily be misused -- particularly when relief does not appear to be fast or forthcoming. But pain sufferers who self-prescribe a double dose of Darvon when a first dose fails may be writing themselves a prescription for trouble.

Reasons revolve around unusual properties of the drug itself.

For one thing, the gap between a therapeutic dose and an overdose is small. This margin of safety is so slight, in fact, that as little as four times the standard dose can trigger a dangerous slowing of breathing and heart rate. Six times a therapeutic dose can cause seizures and symptoms of toxic psychosis.

Darvon's small safety margin shrinks further if the drug is taken with alcohol or other depressants.

In fact, more than 93 percent of all propoxyphene-related deaths in 1995 were the result of interactions with other drugs -- more than half involving alcohol or diazepam. (Valium).....Addiction and Other Dangers

Given propoxyphene's similarities to methadone, it's not surprising that the drug is as addictive as it is.....



http://www.doitnow.org/pages/157.html


You might want to do a little research yourself, before you insult people without foundation, pick fights, and behave, dare I say, in a rather judgmental fashion.

You have a nice day, now. Do your homework next time, eh?

[uppityperson]

48. 4-6 times a dose is a "slight margin of safety"? Did you know that aspirin and tylenol also have

that same "slight" safety amount? Overdose by aspirin by 4-6 times, or tylenol, and you are looking for hurt also. Sorry, not good enough research. try again, by a reputable source.

[MADem]

50. So, two wrongs make a right?

I remember the days of the Darvocet overdoses--they were frighteningly common back in the seventies. They KILLED people. Idiots would have a few drinks, forget that they took their dose, take more, and CROAK.

You can take six aspirins and NOT DIE. You can fuck up your liver with tylenol, but you won't DIE.



Symptoms of a Darvocet overdose may include:

bluish tinge to the skin
coma
convulsions
decreased or difficult breathing to the point of temporary stoppage
decreased heart function
extreme sleepiness
irregular heartbeat
low blood pressure
pinpoint pupils becoming dilated later
stupor
abdominal pain
excessive sweating
general feeling of illness
kidney failure
liver problems
loss of appetite
nausea
vomiting
confusion
deafness
excessive perspiration
headache
mental dullness
rapid breathing
rapid pulse
ringing in the ears
vertigo
vomiting
http://www.drug-overdose.com/darvocet.htm


I'm not "sorry" and I don't particularly care if you don't care for my research. That article was pretty frigging clear and provided factual information, not opinions about aspirin and tylenol that don't stand up to scrutiny.

Have a nice day.

[uppityperson]

51. You can fuck up your liver with tylenol and die.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002598.htm
Acetaminophen overdose is one of the most common poisonings worldwide. People often think that acetaminophen, a pain-relieving medicine, is extremely safe. However, it may be deadly if taken in large doses.

ou should not take more than 4000 mg of acetaminophen a day. Taking more, especially 7000 mg or more, can lead to a severe overdose if not treated.

[MADem]

53. Not on six pills you can't. But a little booze and six Darvocet, and lights out.

Name the pallbearers and pick out the casket. Ask that Matuszak guy. Oh, wait...you can't. He died of a DARVOCET OVERDOSE...not aspirin, not tylenol.

Here. READ: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE1DC153CF93BA15755C0A96F948260

John Matuszak, the former defensive lineman for the Oakland and Los Angeles Raiders, died 10 days ago as a result of an accidental overdose of a prescription drug, according to the findings of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office.

A report released this afternoon listed the cause of death as ''acute propoxyphene intoxication.'' Matuszak, who was 38 years old, suffered a heart failure June 17.

The drug, known by the trade name Darvon, was included in a prescription for Darvocet. The report added that a small amount of cocaine metabolite was found in Matuszak's blood, ''but was not considered to have contributed to his death.''

Bob Dambacher, a spokesman for the coroner's office, said the level of propoxyphene found in Matuszak's blood, 3.4 micrograms per milliliter, was considered fatal. The level of the other drug in the prescription, acetaminophen (known as Tylenol), was not included in the findings, Dambacher said, because it was not considered fatal.



Please. We're done here. It's a lousy drug because it's easy for people to kill themselves using it, and it isn't much more effective than some OTC pills in many applications. You won't change my mind on that score.

[uppityperson]

55. 4000mg tylenol is 4 doses of 2 extra strength pills.

Make it 7 doses, add in alcohol and you can kill your liver. Can you understand that tylenol can also be dangerous? or do you want to simply tell me I'm "giving you shit"? Trying to educate here.



http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012701
Drug overdose and self-poisoning are two of the most common methods used in suicide attempts, said Lt. Col. (Dr.) Donald Christensen, 22nd Aeromedical-Dental Squadron commander. Acetaminophen, commonly known as Tylenol, is now the most frequently used drug in attempted suicides. Often, acetaminophen is the sole component that is ingested in a suicide attempt, but sometimes other medications may also be involved as a combination overdose.

According to officials, acetaminophen is a very safe and effective drug when properly taken. However, when used improperly, it can be deadly. Intentional overdose of this medication accounts for 100,000 calls to poison control centers, 56,000 emergency room visits, 26,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths annually in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.



http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/acetaminophen_overdose.htm
Be careful about alcohol. The labels warn against using acetaminophen if you have three or more alcoholic drinks each day. But not everyone metabolizes alcohol the same way, so it’s safer to avoid alcohol entirely while taking acetaminophen.



http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11017.php
Acetaminophen overdose causes more than 450 deaths due to acute liver failure each year in the United States and this number appears to be on the rise. In 2001, the U.S. Acute Liver Failure (ALF) Study found acetaminophen responsible for 39 percent of cases. In 2003, the number had risen to 49 percent.

..
More than 50 percent of the country's cases of acute liver failure are related to acetaminophen, according to the ALF Study, reports Lee. While acetaminophen overdose is a fairly common way to attempt suicide, most suicidal patients receive medical care within four hours and can be protected by the acetaminophen antidote.

However, Lee reports that people who ingest large quantities of the drug over several days - usually to relieve pain and often in conjunction with other narcotics - are typically not aware of the potential harm and only seek treatment after symptoms of toxicity have appeared and their prognosis is poor. These unintentional cases constitute roughly half of all cases that develop liver failure and 30 percent of all these cases are fatal.



http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=25335
Tis` the season for colds and coughs and emergency physicians say it`s also the season they see a hike in the number of teens being admitted for taking toxic amounts of cough medicine. That`s because the winter is when stores stock their shelves with cold and cough medications that contain dextromethorphan, a drug the Partnership for a Drug Free America estimates 1 in 10 teens has intentionally overdosed on to get high.

Dextromethorphan is found in everything from Robutusin to Clorecedin, in fact, there are well over 100 cough medicines on the market containing the drug, which is completely safe when taken properly. Doctors say for anyone to actually get a buzz off it, vast amounts of the medication have to be taken, so an accidental overdose is unlikely.

Emergency physician Gordy Leingang says the biggest concern about dextromethorphan abuse is it`s interactions with other over the counter drugs.

"If you take it with a product that combines it with acetaminophen...they frequently will get a toxic overdose of that medication, seeking to get an intentional overdose of the dextromethorphan, and they`ll get into trouble. Acetaminophen, better known as Tylenol, in overdose is very dangerous," says Leingang.

[MADem]

57. Why are you pretending that I don't "understand" that Tylenol can harm your liver?

But seven pills ALL BY THEMSELVES, even with alcohol, will NOT KILL YOU. Unless your liver is already profoundly compromised and at death's door. So stop trying to throw aspirin and tylenol at me, as though they are the equivalent of Darvocet.

They aren't.

See, seven DARVOCET washed down with some alcohol CAN kill you. And it's not your LIVER that's getting the workout on the way to the funeral home.

A link for you: http://www.clearhavencenter.com/substance-abuse-treatment-resources/darvocet.php

Medicines that can interact with Darvocet
The propoxyphene in these drugs slows down the central nervous system and intensifies the effects of alcohol. Heavy use of alcohol with this drug may cause overdose symptoms. Therefore, limit or avoid use of alcohol while you are taking this medication. If these medications are taken with certain other drugs, the effects of either could be increased, decreased, or altered. It is especially important to check with your doctor before combining them with the following: •Antiseizure medications such as Tegretol •Antidepressant drugs such as Elavil •Antihistamines such as Benadryl •Muscle relaxants such as Flexeril •Narcotic pain relievers such as Demerol •Sleep aids such as Halcion •Tranquilizers such as Xanax and Valium •Warfarin -like drugs such as Coumadin The use of these drugs with propoxyphene can lead to potentially fatal overdose symptoms. Severe neurologic disorders, including coma, have occurred with the use of propoxyphene in combination with Tegretol. The use of anticoagulants (blood thinners such as Coumadin) in combination with Darvon Compound-65 may cause bleeding. If you are taking an anticoagulant, consult your doctor before taking this drug. The use of aspirin with drugs for gout may alter the effects of the antigout medication. Consult your doctor before taking Darvon Compound-65.

Is Darvocet addictive?
Yes, given darvocet's similarities to methadone, it's not surprising that the drug is as addictive as it is. In fact, the medical journal Clinical Pharmacology even argued that darvocet's "most prominent effect...may be its addictive quality. " Darvon produces psychological and physical dependence like other narcotics, and treatment for Darvon dependence is much the same, too.



Good night.

[uppityperson]

61. "You can fuck up your liver with tylenol, but you won't DIE. "

Because you wrote that quote above. I am glad that you now say that tylenol can also be dangerous.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=49785&mesg_id=49876

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

39. Lots of judgements based on innacurate "facts" there.

"Anyone on that dose for that long IS addicted. Try taking it away from her, and see what happens. You think she'll shrug and say "Hand me the aspirin?" Please."

Do you even know what recommended dose of darvocet is? That is a normal dose, assuming OP mean mg not gm. Otherwise she'd need a shovel to eat that much in a day.

Assuming here OP mean mg not gm, no, she won't go into "harsh and agonizing withdrawal" when that dose is stopped.

And no, That, dear, is NOT the DEFINITION of addiction, whether or not you go into "harsh and agonizing withdrawal".

And you have not basis for "She's probably on it because the doc fucked up the surgery. " Surgery for back pain is not always effective and NOT because the doc fucks up the surgery.

And no, "That dose, that long, that's addiction." No, it is pain management.

[MADem]

42. OK, take the drug away from her. Give her an aspirin instead.

When she bites your head off, don't cry to me. When she sneaks around you at night while you sleep to steal that bottle of pills back out of your purse, remember what I said.

Addiction, if you want to get technical, has a number of features to it. The drug counselors say you only have to have ONE feature to qualify as an addict. Someone who would scream at you if you took their drugs, or who would sneak behind your back to get their pills back, is addicted. Not "dependent."

But whatever. Play with the words all you want.

You seem--erroneously, as it turns out (helps to read what I write in full context) to think that I am OPPOSED to pain management. I am most certainly NOT.

What I am opposed to, though, is doctors putting people on shitty, ineffective drugs like DARVOCET that can KILL people if they fuck up their dose EVEN SLIGHTLY.

What I am opposed to is doctors not being able to, because of shitty federal interference, prescribe drugs that more effectively target the pain without killing the liver.

What I am also pissed off about, frankly, is an unwillingness by "modern medicine" to think beyond the pharmaceutical paradigm, to acupuncture-like solutions involving nerve blocking. The few devices available to people are bulky, expensive, and not easily accessed by people who need them.

FWIW, I know maybe a half dozen people who have had back surgery. Every single one who had the surgery in AMERICA is still in fucking pain and on drugs--they may as well not have bothered, and gone straight to the pills. But nooooo...the doctor wouldn't play it that way. They had to get out the KNIFE first, and then give them pills. If that's not fucking up, I don't know what is.

I do know someone who had some crap vacuumed out using a new procedure in Europe who is doing well, for now.

But whatever. You seem determined to get on a high horse and pout. And yell at me. And deliberately misinterpret my meaning and my intent. Happy now? Gallop off, now and have your fun.

[uppityperson]

47. I don't think you are replying to me, or are confusing other posters here

Where did I say you were against pain management? Where am I "yelling" at you? Why do you not answer my questions but just attack?

Regarding the term "addiction" and "playing with words", if you give a wrong definition of "addiction" and I call you on it, then you say I am just "playing with words", all I have to say is WTF?

As far as your other insults, wtf? maybe you should read more carefully and check who is writing what to you as what you accuse me of has no basis in fact. High horse? Pout? Wtf? Yell at you? Wtf? try again

Darvocet is good for a limited number of reasons. Just because it may be misused does not mean that it is never worthwhile. Missing a dose, or taking one late won't KILL you as you said ("shitty, ineffective drugs like DARVOCET that can KILL people if they fuck up their dose EVEN SLIGHTLY. ") . Sorry, but darvocet just isn't that hard core.

Now, if you want to take the fact that I disagree as "yelling at you", you have an issue.

[MADem]

49. You're the one who called me (sic) judgemental.

I don't judge a person's need for pain management. I only judge the inability of the medical profession to provide appropriate levels of it in effective fashion.

Yet you give me shit, for no good reason.

If a person will deceive to get the drug they're on, that's ADDICTION.

Darvocet is a shitty drug, and I provided a detailed link elswhere in this thread that explains why. It doesn't WORK very well, and it's easy to overdose on.

I am not interested in playing this back and forth game with you. I have no "issue"-- I am simply uninterested in responding to picking and carping when it's plain you mistook my meaning and intent.

Have a nice day.

[uppityperson]

52. "She's probably on it because the doc fucked up the surgery" IS judgemental, not based on facts in

evidence.

I disagree with what you write and say you are wrong in your facts. That, to you, meant I give you shit, for no good reason.

You are only interested in arguing and being nasty. Tata

[MADem]

54. If talking on a discussion board requires only "facts in evidence" well, we all had best

shut the fuck up. Might as well shut this joint down.

I disagree with what you write, and I say you are wrong in your facts, too, so I guess we're even. At least I provide cites.

I am ENTIRELY uninterested in arguing. You have a nice day.

[uppityperson]

56. "I am ENTIRELY uninterested in arguing" bwahahahahaha

at least you're not saying you weren't judgmental. Or nitpicking over a typo.

[MADem]

58. Get some help. NT

[Peregrine Took]

63. Sorry, you'r right about the mg. I know nothing about drugs but I should

have checked!

She had spine surgery 5 years ago and had a ton of "hardware" put in - now its become infected.

Now they (hospital) has her on "Norco" or "Norcor" - a lot of it so she's "happy" again.

[108blessings]

66. Amen to that! I guess it boils down to why we are all here, huh?

I have read so many of these posts, which basically have the attitude that once you are a certain age, being doped up is all good as long as you are keeping quiet. As if this poor woman has nothing left to contribute or experience without that druggy haze. It's amazing the mentality out there, especially when it comes to meds.

[uppityperson]

68. Yeah, how DARE a doctor help an elderly peson with pain control!

After all, all drugs are bad!

No, having pain control is sometimes necessary and a decision best made to the individual and his/her health care provider. Why do you assume that someone is unable to make this decision just because they are elderly.

Welcome back, I see you have expanded outside the Health forum this incarnation.

[conscious evolution]

69. She is addicted

She may not be an 'addict' but she is addicted.

[Warpy]

2. If her dose is stable, she's likely not addicted

but she is dependent on it. If she wants detox, it should be handled in the hospital. If she doesn't. then just let her keep taking her Darvon every day. At her age detoxing her would likely be a lot more dangerous than continuing the drug.

I'm sure that's what her physician is thinking, too. Please call him for any questions about her.

Addiction is characterized by uncontrollable drug cravings leading to constantly requiring increased doses of the drug.

Dependence just means she will get very sick if it's stopped quickly but won't experience cravings.

(by the way, I hope you meant 400 mg. 400G would have put her into a grave)

Handout at http://www.medicinenet.com/propoxyphene_and_acetaminophen/article.htm

[Clovis Sangrail]

15. isn't "dependent on it" the same thing as "addicted" ? /nt

[Warpy]

17. RTFP

Thank you.

[Clovis Sangrail]

18. IDRTFPBYSMNFS

thank you

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

34. if you have a permanent pain condition, it isn't the issue

if you are always going to have pain, and someone who has had back surgery
often will, then you need decent pain medication.

I argue that the OP's sister should talk to her doctor or probably, even better
see a doctor at a pain clinic.

The medicine she is taking now can be toxic.

There are better, stronger meds that have fewer side effects.

But again, I don't understand the worry over addiction.

Yes this drug is addictive, but if you have chronic pain, that issue is irrelevent.

[Clovis Sangrail]

35. I agree

if somebody is in chronic pain addiction to the medicine that brings them relief (physical or psychological) is a secondary issue... however that doesn't mean addiction isn't there.

With the issues some people have brought up about this particular drug it seems consulting a physician is in order but otherwise I see no problem with with this even if she is addicted.

She's 85.
If it's not causing any problems let it be.

[Warpy]

37. There's a huge difference between addiction and dependence

Addicts are chasing an elusive high and experience uncontrollable craving for the drug.

People who are dependent have physical symptoms when the drug is abruptly withdrawn but experience no craving for it.

Think of it this way: diabetics are dependent on insulin; asthmatics can be dependent on steroids. Neither is an addiction. Neither is physical dependence on pain medication.

The whole drug war against pain patients is founded on confusing these two very separate phenomena.

[Clovis Sangrail]

44. no .. the difference is just in your perception

addiction is addiction - to me it has no connotations beyond a physical or psychological dependence.
It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with chasing a high.
:shrug:

as for the "war against pain patients" ... that's a new one to me.

[Warpy]

46. My perception is based on education and experience

and yours is based on.....what, exactly?

[Clovis Sangrail]

59. oh.. I don't know

I guess I saw your name and decided to fuck with you
:sarcasm:

think what you just wrote.
everybody's perception - ABOUT EVERYTHING - is based on education and experience !!
:eyes:


here's a chance for you to learn from "education and experience":

You've assigned a negative connotation to addiction... not me.
Somebody who is who is physically or psychologically dependent on something is addicted by definition.


Look shit up
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addict

   /n. ˈædɪkt; v. əˈdɪkt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation

2. to cause to become physiologically or psychologically dependent on an addictive substance, as alcohol or a narcotic.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

64. Dr. Moore committed suicide on July 23, 2002, as a direct result of the South Carolina Clinic case

Dr. Moore committed suicide on July 23, 2002, as a direct result of the South Carolina Clinic case

A Different Kind of OxyContin Death
Benjamin Moore, MD R.I.P.


On July 24, 2002 Dr. Benjamin Moore committed suicide in Winston-Salem, NC. His death is attributable directly to the war on Oxycontin. Dr. Moore, a well-liked and respected locum tenans physician had gone to work at a pain management clinic in South Carolina that had come under investigation by the DEA. Pain management specialists who reviewed files at the request of Dr. Moore's counsel agreed that his medical practices bore no signs of criminal intent. Under intense pressure and "counseling" by the DEA, Dr. Moore pled guilty to counts involving prescription of Oxycontin and fraudulent billing and was awaiting sentencing by a South Carolina federal court at the time of his death.
I received this notice from Mary Baluss, our National Counsel. There is little I can say to comfort the family, friends and pateints of Dr. Moore. Had I known he was contemplating this, perhaps I could have helped. I would have shared with him my own experiences, which led me to help found the National Foundation for the Treatment of Pain. I would have told him to fight to the death - that the Drug Warriors could kill him, but that they should never make him give up.

It is true that the Prosecutors have endless resources and doctors have only there own means - always earned just one day at a time. It is true that to fight charges, like those Dr. Moore faced, can cost over $250,000.

It is also true that Dr. Robert Weitzel, facing his second trial, has already spent $650,000, $200,000 of which were from an anonymous benefactor.

...more here:

http://www.cpmission.com/main/drmoore.html

[Clovis Sangrail]

65. that sucks

and it's indicative of a broken justice system.. though I don't know that it's indicative of a 'war on pain patients'.
:shrug:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. I take my mother to a pain clinic, these clinics are under heavy scrutiny

The Doctors are under alot of scrutiny and most patients are required to come to the
Pain Clinic every single month in order to get 1 30 day prescription at a time.

This isn't so the Clinic can charge more, it is because of the law.

The clinic would be investigated if somehow the meds they prescribe end up being
sold on the street.

The types of meds the Pain Clinic prescribed are meds your regular doctor wont prescribe.

[conscious evolution]

70. Yes this drug is addictive, but if you have chronic pain, that issue is irrelevent

Very true.
Sometimes the only way a person can function is if they eat pk's like candy.It often boils down to being aan addict with a life or being debilitated by pain.
Frankly,if I had the choice,I would rather have a life.Even if it means developing an addiction.

[Cleita]

40. No.

My husband was dependent on Epogen, a hormone that helped his bone marrow create red blood cells. He would have died without it, but it wasn't addictive.

[Fovea]

3. That's roughly a pound.

400mg?
Per how many hours?

[cosmik debris]

20. 400 milligram = 0.000 881 849 048 74 pound n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. except the OP said 400 grams

[cosmik debris]

23. Yeah, I read that after I posted. My apologies.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. No worries I think everyone knew they meant milligrams.

[PoiBoy]

5. Here's some things I found on the google...

10 things you should know about Darvocet:
http://arthritis.about.com/od/darvocet/a/darvocet.htm

<snip>
Darvocet is an analgesic medication used to relieve pain. Darvocet is commonly prescribed as part of a treatment regimen to manage arthritis pain and other painful conditions.
<end>



Consumer Information:
http://www.drugs.com/darvocet.html

<snip>
Propoxyphene may be habit-forming and should be used only by the person it was prescribed for. Keep the medication in a secure place where others cannot get to it. Darvocet can cause side effects that may impair your thinking or reactions. Be careful if you drive or do anything that requires you to be awake and alert.
<end>

<snip>
An overdose of acetaminophen can cause serious harm to your liver. The maximum amount of acetaminophen for adults is 1 gram (1000 mg) per dose and 4 grams (4000 mg) per day. One Darvocet tablet may contain up to 650 mg of acetaminophen. Know the amount of acetaminophen in the specific product you are taking.
<end>


Here's hoping she's taking 400 mg (milligrams) instead of 400 gms (grams)...!

:hi:

[leftyclimber]

7. She's 85.

Let her be comfortable.

She's lucky it's "just" Darvocet. My 77-year-old grandmother was given oxycontin after a botched hip-replacement procedure (she's suffering like mad and understandably does not want a do-over at her age) and it caused heart damage. Her grandmother lived into her 90s, so 77 in our family is young to be having heart problems.

We as a society are so lousy about pain management. If it's what she needs to be comfortable and it's not interfering with the rest of her life, I'm glad she and her doctor were able to find a solution.

Perspective, though: she's 85. She deserves to have comfort in her twilight years.

[chucktaylor]

8. My 84 yr old mother takes Percocet daily for years. Old shoulder surgery.

If she needs them for pain or just to enjoy Racheal Ray cook, I don't care.

[Celebration]

36. there ya go!

Best post in this thread. She may be addicted, but let her be.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. A Pain Clinic would probably put her on something that doesnt have Acetaminophen in it

my mother was on high doses of darvacet for arthritus in her spine and
a bad hip joint. (We replaced hip once).

They switched her to a different drug and explained that high levels
of Acetaminophen were more dangerous to my mother than other pain meds
that are considered addictive.

Someone with permanent pain isn't going to be addicted to drugs, they
just flat out need them for the pain.

Talk to your family doctor and ask if she should see a pain specialist.

[Cleita]

41. The pain clinic I work for would probably prescribe

medical cannibis. Yep, it would.

[DeepBlueC]

12. I think you should mind your own business

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

14. actually she should be concerned about the levels of Tylenol in the Darvacet

My mother was on high levels of that med for years, and when I took her
to the pain clinic, they took her off of it immediately, saying it was dangerous.

They said that too much tylenol (or generic name) can damage your liver,
and taking that day after day, year after year was risky.

They put her on other medicines.

Its not about being addicted, its about taking a safer pain med.

Darvacet isn't that safe, and shouldn't be taken over a long period.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Oxycontin is likely a better choice.

[Cleita]

32. At her age, why would you be concerned about it being addictive

even if it is? She's apparently functioning on it for years as you said, so why fix what isn't broken? Old people are allowed a little addiction to help relieve pain when they are in their twilight years. Would you rather that she drank instead?

[Warpy]

33. I love to see drug warrior knees jerk on these threads

The "OH MY GAWD, GRANNY IS ON DRUGS!" hysteria that accompanies what is a very reasonable dosage of a very weak painkiller in an elderly person who is at no risk for boosting car stereos to pay for a habit is astonishing to me.

Of course they rationalize it as all being against a mean old drug company, but we know where they're really at.

[DeepBlueC]

60. that's what I hear

Sheesh

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

43. maybe they are afraid she will become a crack ho

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

38. If she is comfortable and stable, and her provider knows, and is milligrams, don't worry

"These products are given orally. The usual dosage is 100 mg propoxyphene napsylate and 650 mg acetaminophen every 4 hours as needed for pain. The maximum recommended dose of propoxyphene napsylate is 600 mg per day."
http://www.rxlist.com/darvocet-n-drug.htm

It is not an out of the ordinary dose, assuming you mistyped and meant mg not gms. At 85, and if stable on it for yrs, she's fine. Speaking as a nurse of 30+ yrs, not being able to prescribe but having a large part of my job over the yrs being looking up info for people.

[w8liftinglady]

45. I'm a nurse on a surgical floor.That's peanuts..

As others said,I'd just make sure she wasn't taking extra-strength tylenol along with it.Many of my chronic pain patients are on SO much more than that.If she's comfortable and isn't needing increased doses,I say let it be.

[jody]

71. IMO at 85 she is entitled to take whatever drugs relieve her pain. I recall in the 1940s my aunt

dying of cancer and being denied drugs that would have relieved her pain just because she might become addicted.