Study: No Link Between Autism, Vaccines

[OhioChick]

Italian Study Rules Out Thimerosal Fears

POSTED: 3:45 am EST January 26, 2009

A new study from Italy adds to a mountain of evidence that a mercury-based preservative once used in many vaccines doesn't hurt children, offering more reassurance to parents.

In the early 1990s, thousands of healthy Italian babies in a study of whooping cough vaccines got two different amounts of the preservative thimerosal from all their routine shots.

Ten years later, 1,403 of those children took a battery of brain function tests. Researchers found small differences in only two of 24 measurements and those "might be attributable to chance," they wrote in the February issue of the journal Pediatrics, which was released Monday.

Only one case of autism was found, and that was in the group that got the lower level of thimerosal.

Autism is a complex disorder featuring repetitive behaviors and poor social interaction and communication skills. Scientists generally believe genetics plays a role in causing the disorder; a theory that thimerosal is to blame has been repeatedly discounted in scientific studies.

"Put together with the evidence of all the other studies, this tells us there is no reason to worry about the effect of thimerosal in vaccines," said the new study's lead author, Dr. Alberto Tozzi of Bambino Gesu Hospital in Rome.

More: http://www.newsnet5.com/health/18562378/detail.html

A link.....Yea or Nay? If there is no link between Autism/Vaccines, why so many kids with Autism?

[Ian David]

1. Also: Ursine mammals evacuate their bowels in a sylvan environment. n/t

[SidDithers]

2. Pffft...

Who would you rather believe on this issue, scientific research or Jenny McCarthy?

Sid

[OhioChick]

3. I don't know much on the subject....

I see it discussed here on occasion and only asked for opinions. :shrug:

[greyl]

10. Make believe you asked for opinions expressed through sarcasm and it should make sense. ;) nt

[TZ]

19. There's opinions

and then there's scientific data. The link above is scientific data. POV of people who don't bother to educate themselves on the subject don't count for much.
These studies have been done by a number of VERY reputable scientific agencies such as NIH, CDC, WHO and all have concluded there is no link between autism and vaccines.

[wolfgangmo]

88. In the opinion of my medical director

who is a former surgical researcher at one of the top 3 surgical universities in the world is that these studies are flawed in that they do not take into account the myriad factors that go into creating autism but rather single out a single factor and then conclude that there is no connection. That is not to say that mercury is causal , but rather evidence seems to indicate that it may very well be highly contributory, so much so that without it's presence, then many of these kids would not start exhibiting autism like symptoms.

Thats our stance at our clinic. There are much better ways to schedule vaccines by spreading them out and by using vaccines that do not contain room temperature stable preservatives. They could be refrigerated but instead they are the medical equivalent of twinkies when we should be giving these children whole foods, so to speak.

Comments from the reactionaries?

[AndrewP]

4. LOL

[EstimatedProphet]

36. But Jenny McCarthy's child is an Indigo Child!

The Indigo Children were sent here from a distant civilization to save the world! Didn't you know that?

[TrogL]

54. I checked up on Indigo Children a little while ago

Apparently 99% of all children are Indigo Children.

Pity the poor 1% who got left out.

[Mike 03]

5. I read everything I can find on this, and even I'm concerned about thimerosal, but

I'm beginning to believe this connection between vaccines and autism is a dead end. There are so many more believable causations.

It's no more believable than this latest line of inquiry into whether pregnant women who drink coffee are more likely to have autistic children.

[KittyWampus]

35. A large number of healthy children develop Autism directly after vaccination

This study only touches on thimersol.

[TrogL]

52. Just keep saying it over and over until you've got it

(which apparently you do)

"Correlation is not causation"
"Correlation is not causation"
"Correlation is not causation"

Anything else is Fallacy of the Undivided Middle.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Yeah, well they used to say that airplanes couldn't fly.

That just goes to show you what them eggheads no.

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. Aw, c'mon. I've already a week's worth of popcorn and it's only Monday. nt

[seabeyond]

43. that was funny. lol. n/t

[blondeatlast]

57. I'm driving to CostCo; I need gas anyhow! nt

[Norrin Radd]

8. They should put thimerisol back into vaccines.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Why? n/t

[cureautismnow]

49. Contrary to the article, thimerosal is still in some vaccines.

http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Table 3: Thimerosal and Expanded List of Vaccines - (updated 3/14/2008)
Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines

The vaccines below from certain pharm. co.'s still contain some mercury.

Dtap, Dt, Td, Tt, HepA/HepB, six flu shots listed, Japanese Encephalitis, and Meningococcal.

The biggest offender seems to be Sanofi Pasteur, Inc. - the largest co. in the world devoted entirely to vaccines.

[seabeyond]

56. my kids had to get a hepA last year, it had it in it. pro vac on this board say it is out

but the last i heard, in this area, it was still in the vacs.

[cureautismnow]

72. Yep. Junior vetoed the bill that would have banned thimerosal in vaccines.

"President Bush is to veto a bill that would ban mercury in flu vaccines for children despite its known links to autism and other neurological disorders and despite the fact that he pledged in 2004 to support such a move when campaigning for re-election."

http://www.autism-blog.net/2007/11/bush-vetoing-fy-2008-funding-bill.html

Just reason one million +1 to hate the policies of that evil bastard.

Hopefully, Obama does the right thing, when it comes back around. :)

[seabeyond]

73. why should i trust this pro vac argument when i hear so much wrong, sided info.

thread after thread i am reading people tell me it is out of vacs.... and then you give me this, after i took kids to get hepA and told by nurse it is still in them

then they all yell..... the info is there.

ya

wrong info.

why should i trust any of this shit being fed to us

[cureautismnow]

80. *Sigh* Even where thimerosal is "banned," trace amounts are still allowed.

Look at California law:

"The new Mercury-Free Act took effect on July 1, 2006. The Act prohibits administering mercury-containing vaccines to pregnant women or to children under age three. To meet the “mercury-free” standards in this law, vaccines may not exceed 0.5 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 milliliters of vaccine dose. The mercury limit for flu vaccine is 1 microgram per 0.5 milliliters."

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/PROGRAMS/IMMUNIZE/Pages/CaliforniaThimerosolLaw.aspx

Sadly, I also suspect that any future law that Obama signs "banning" thimerosal in vaccines will still make an exception for trace amounts. I hope I'm wrong.

[seabeyond]

81. thank you for the info. when people insist you are stupid and say look no mercury

yet being told still mercury, hard to take as a fact.

thanks for the clarification

[semillama]

83. Out of curiousity, did you breastfeed? n/t

[seabeyond]

89. curious

why?

not that i mind answering. i breast fed for 2-3 months.

[semillama]

91. I was wondering if you knew about the level of mercury in breast milk

which far exceeds the amount in any vaccine containing thimerosal. It's the dose that makes the poison, you see. Small amounts of mercury are ingested by everyone (such as through our diet) and our bodies are well able to deal with it.

It's very good you breast-fed, though. My wife is going to breast-feed our baby when it is born sometime in the next week or so, and the health benefits of breast-feeding far outweigh any possible risk from the small amount of mercury found in breast milk. There's other things that might be riskier, such as BPA, and studies have found that infants that were formula fed with plastic bottles had higher levels of BPA than breast-fed babies. But that's all off topic, I suppose.

[seabeyond]

93. it is so hard. and congrats and have a blast

it is all so hard.

my son is 13 now so was a while ago nad htere really was not all this information. from my experience i saw my oldest effected on two yr old vaccination late that night with his shots and when i checked on him the oddest of behavior. i called husband in and we watched the kid. he was zoned out and we couldnt get his attention, was doing hand movements and told hubby, it looks like autism

it was so clear, in my face and such an oddity. i was a parent with kids 24/7 day after day after day. i ntoiced everything

i didnt think much about it. i had heard no info on vaccination/autism and it wasnt even on radar

that is why i cannot just readily go with what people are demanding i think. i just cant let it go and say, ..... i made it up. i didnt.

but.... i digress

it is so hard today and all the pollutants and shit. what to give the child not, something always contradicting....

i just keep it as real as possible and figure the kids body will evolve and adapt to our poisons.... and

i enjoy them.

exciting times for you and wife. the best to you all

oh, lol lol. the mercury thing. since, years later.... i have learned a bit. mercury level is up in everything. i have watched my son after certain fishes, again was over time noticing behavorial changes, then watching with fish. tuna, i have just stopped serving. other fishes ok, some not. but there isnt any info out there on this. so again, am i just fooling self.

seems so much time spending defending vacs, i say fuck it, just fix it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

119. Where does the article say that?

[SheilaT]

9. I have a son with mild autism,

Asperger's Syndrome, and I really get crazy when people want to blame it on vaccines. He was different from day one. As a brand new born infant he was not like other infants, only I didn't realize at the time that he wasn't just his own unique person, but different in a systematic way.

And honestly, I don't buy it when people claim that their kid was utterly normal until a vaccination. People so badly want to blame someone, something, anything for what's wrong with their kid that they aren't willing to be less than honest about the fact that their kid always was not quite like other kids.

[OhioChick]

11. I'm sorry to hear that your son has mild autism.....

I do appreciate your thoughts regarding autism/vaccines.

I wish the both of you well.

:hug:

[ThatsMyBarack]

12. I think he will be fine!

There's more hope, help, and sources for him (and you) that weren't around when I was a kid (I'm 38 now).

[TZ]

18. Thank you

I rarely hear this so clearly and rationaly stated. Emotions seem to override most parents common sense in this area..

[moc]

22. I have a 60yo brother-in-law who probably would have been dx'd as having Asperger's

Syndrome if such a diagnosis had existed in the 50s.

My mother-in-law also said that he was "different" from the time he was a newborn. She said he didn't "cuddle" like other babies did.

[SheilaT]

23. Yes! Not cuddling, big clue.

My son (now 26) also didn't cuddle. As an adult he hates it when I want to hug him hello or goodbye, and is very stiff and awkward. The more I read about Asperger's, the more I realize that even as a brand new born baby he was diagnosable, except that you don't really tune in that way to those things. And I'm actually glad that I didn't figure out until he was half way through his senior year of high school that he had Asperger's.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Late onset autism is well known and well documented.

In my youngest sons case, we didn't notice any symptoms until he was 2 or 3.

Another recent study has reached a strong conclusion that an environmental trigger exists, I'm reasonably convinced that vaccines are not that trigger, but I am equally convinced that something is.

[conscious evolution]

125. I am beginning to think it is

part of a trigger for autism.
Could it be that a a dormant genetic trait is being activcated by a combination of vaccine and something else?

[KittyWampus]

37. Well many parents have children who ARE like other infants developmentally and they only show

extreme problems directly after vaccination.

Just because you don't "buy it" doesn't mean that those parents didn't bring their kids to the DOCTORS who have agreed infants are normal.

So maybe despite your ancedotal evidence you might want to acknowledge there are other experiences out there not being addressed by the scientific community.

[TrogL]

59. OK, show me anecdotal evidence

I want a documented story that says "I took my child for his vaccination and right there in the doctor's office he suddenly went all autistic and has never been the same since".

Unless the child was driven home and immediately put in an environmental bubble, you have not eliminated all other causes both genetic and environmental.

I grew up in the 60's. Everybody got the same vaccination right there in school and it probably had a whopping great dose of mercury and few people came down with autism. In fact, one of our favourite playthings was to break a thermometer and play with the mercury. We used it in science experiments.

You are falling for the logical fallacy of the Undivided Middle.

Something is happening to kids (or somebody is finally noticing it) right around the time that vaccinations are given. Unless you eliminate all other possibilites (and they are endless), you cannot say with any sort of certainty that mercury is causing the problem, especially when the numbers are against you.

And if you say "doctors don't know anything" don't ever EVER EVER walk in an Emergency room, doctor's office or pharmacy again.

[SidDithers]

118. Well said...nt

Sid

[Stargazer09]

78. One of my children has autism-like symptoms

Like your son, he was different from day one. Slept much more than normal, hated to be out of his crib, etc.

I agree that people want to find something to blame when things go wrong. It's natural. Unfortunately, some people have fed off of that desire and turned a tidy profit on the lecture circuit.

[alarimer]

13. There is no link; there have been many, many studies and the answer is always the same.

I certainly trust scientists (but not science writers necessarily) a lot more than I trust Jenny McCarthy, who seems to think that her maternal instincts trump all science. She's a fool.

[Mike 03]

14. I agree. It's going to turn out to be something obvious that we are just not seeing yet. NT

[lightningandsnow]

16. Genetics?

[Mike 03]

21. Something that impairs DNA repair of genetic mutations, or something like

Bisphenol A, Benzene, Plastics, dioxins or mercury in water and food/dairy products, or chemicals leached from flame retardant products, or maybe even a common ingredient in certain cosmetics.

Hopefully we'll find out soon.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. If one accepts the Italian research as good, then why are americans 10x more likely to develop it?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elleng]

20. It is not going to be

'IT.'

As with good education, there is no IT, but MANY bits.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. You may be right. A good place to look would be the difference between the Italian kids...

and US kids. If the study is to be trusted, they appear to be 1/10th as likely to be dx'ed with autism.

[cureautismnow]

86. There has been ONE major epi. U.S. study and it reached a Neutral Conclusion.

It stated that more research was needed. 5 years later, we're still looking for study #2.

[depakid]

96. Hogwash- STOP spreading disinformation

[cureautismnow]

102. Check your facts. They're not on your side.

"Because the findings of the first phase were not replicated in the second phase, the perception of the study changed from a positive to a neutral study. Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative by many, including the antivaccine lobbyists. The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come."

Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, Letter to Pediatrics, 2004

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/932

Is there some part of this you don't understand? :shrug:

[Mike 03]

15. There is a long list of more likely, rational and logical culprits, and I don't think it

will be much longer before we finally figure out this mystery once and for all.

[mopinko]

24. so many kids with autism, mental illnesses, autoimmune illnesses, lots of

things going wrong. subtle and not so subtle. complex organisms that we are, it could be so many things. kurt vonnegut thought that underarm deodorant was one of mankind's most destructive inventions. i tend to agree with him really. seems to me that nuclear families sprung up at about the same time. imho, they were a terrible idea.
living in houses, and wearing clothes have possibly caused vitamin d deficiencies that can screw up our endocrine systems. modern farming is making our food less nutritious. the billions of gallons of petroleum combustion has released god knows what into the atmosphere.

i suspect that about the time we figure out that we have destroyed our atmosphere we will also realize that we can't reproduce any more any way.

[eridani]

25. What about much smaller, potentially vulnerable sub-populations?

By that I mean people who are genetically less able to deal with heavy metals and/or having unusual immune systems?

For a long time, there was thought to be a link between salt consumption and high blood pressure, with most studies having correlation coefficients of about 0.3. As more information became available about salt sensitivity, it became possible for researchers to study populations of salt-sensitive and non-salt sensitive people. The correlations between salt intake and high blood pressure jumped to 0.8 and higher for the salt sensitive, and dropped to less than 0.1 for the non-salt sensitive.

Similarly, if you did a general population study of kids under 5, you'd probably find that phenylalanine intake had no correlation to mental retardation. How would you have to design such a study to turn up effects on the small minority of kids with PKU?

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. The rate of prevalence in Italy is 1:1400?

What's different about Italy that theirs is so low while ours is 1:150?

Why are we 10 times more likely to have autism?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[4lbs]

38. Maybe it's fast food restaurants using "enhanced" beef. Or just the "enhanced" beef.

Think about it. Italy has very few fast food restaurants like "McDonald's" compared to the U.S.

Fast food restaurants frequently use beef from cows that have been injected with growth hormones and steroids to make larger cattle, and thus produce more usable meat at slaughter.

What if a pregnant woman regularly dines at such places in the U.S., or eats such beef on a regular basis?

What are the effects on a developing fetus if it is exposed regularly to such growth hormones and steroids passed on to it along the food chain?

[trotsky]

50. There's been one statistical correlation discovered.

The advent of cable TV, and the amount of inclement weather days in a given area. Both are tied to increased television viewing at a young age. Not proven at all, just an interesting correlation. I'm of the opinion that it's genetically based, but some genes may be activated/deactivated through environmental factors - just not vaccines.

[seabeyond]

53. we hardly ever have tv on. hubby watches in his cave, but we dont turn tv on. very little

kid appropriate tv.

though i have considered the unstudied fast moving, stimulating computer games on the brain as far as effecting attention deficit.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. The Anti-Thimerosal Zealots Are As Bad As The Anti-Climate Change Zealots.

They can't be reasoned with, regardless of the accuracy of any given study.

[KittyWampus]

33. Title they gave article is misleading in the extreme. There most certainly IS a link between Autism

and vaccines. It might not be thimersol or in some cases it might.

The FACT is, there is a sizable number of infants who were normal before the vaccines and ended up with problems immediately AFTER vaccines.

Is it essentially an allergic response to one vaccine? To the overall large number of vaccines? Compromised Immunity functions due to rising number of allergens in our environs?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Nope, sorry.

That IS something you're making up.

[KittyWampus]

39. Then why are scientists working on tests that will determine if an infant is allergic to a vaccine?

And how is it you and a small number of zealots who defend the rising tide of vaccination without ANY attempt at objectivity on the matter never have the intellectual honesty to admit that there is a set percentage of infants who will either die, be permanently injured due to vaccination. That is just a scientific fact.

For a lot of us, the issue isn't Vaccinations in general. It's the ever increasing number and the toll it might be taking in conjunction with environmental stresses and triggers.

[4lbs]

41. Yeah, but those vaccine allergy studies aren't looking at thimerosal as a culprit. They are looking

at the egg-whites used in culturing some vaccines as a possible cause of allergic reactions.

Just as if vaccines were to say, use peanut oil in culturing vaccines, and these vaccines were injected into kids allergic to nuts, causing a reaction.

You are trying to take thimerosal and extrapolate it to everything. That is incorrect.

[Ms. Toad]

100. Case in point.

>>For a lot of us, the issue isn't Vaccinations in general. It's the ever increasing number and the toll it might be taking in conjunction with environmental stresses and triggers.<<

Response:

>>You are trying to take thimerosal and extrapolate it to everything. That is incorrect.<<

The post to which the response was made did not mention thimersol at all, but rather pointed to a very different concern. This is also the typical response I get every time I suggest the same thing - so I've pretty much given up arguing up with the all-vaccines-are-universally-good crowd who insist that anyone who suggests evaluating each vaccination (and the dosing schedule) must be an anti-science idiot.

The ever increasing number of vaccinations, some for relatively minor illnesses, and the dosage schedule which exposes our infants' immature immune systems to the equivalent of 10 illnesses before they are a year old (with several coming in a single visit to the doctor) is certainly worthy of a bit of objective review.

There is a tendency to make every new vaccination mandatory. Even vaccinations which serve a valuable purpose do not need to be mandatory (or should only be mandatory for certain populations for certain periods of time).

The HiB vaccination is a prime example. It is crucial for infants and children through age 5 in child care settings, and should be mandatory for that population in that age range. The illness can be life threatening for that population, if a child contracts the illness it is likely to spread to others of a similar age with which the child comes into contact, and is found almost exclusively in that population. The vaccination is a mandatory vaccination, however, for children entering kindergarten - at age 5 or 6 by which time there is virtually no threat that they will contract the illness, and even less threat that if they do contract it it will have serious health consequences. There is no valid reason for requiring HiB vaccination for kindergarten age children.

Similarly, some studies have shown that near simultaneous exposure to the viruses which causes mumps and measles correlates with early manifestation of inflammatory bowel disease (a disease which typically manifests itself in the late 20s or early 30s). The studies have been correlation studies, not causation studies, but given the seriousness of the disease (ulcerative colitis is associated with a particularly virulent version of colon cancer), and the minimal harm in separating the exposure (the inconvenience of having two shots instead of one - with an additional visit to the doctor), it makes sense to separate the mumps vaccine from the measles vaccine.

My daughter is one of the ones who manifested UC at age 3, shortly after her MMR booster. She now (at age 18) has to have colonoscopies every other year because she has the colon cancer risk of someone well over 50 - and the medication she takes to keep her UC in remission may now have damaged her liver. She is currently undergoing a series of liver screening tests to determine the extent of the damage. The medication she has been taking for 13 years has the fewest systemic side effects - if she has to switch, whatever she has to switch to may not control the illness as well and will be harder on her overall health. If I had known then what I know now, I certainly would have insisted on a time separation between the mumps and measles vaccinations. There is no guarantee it would have made a difference - but it wouldn't have done any harm, and it might have prevented the problems she now faces having a chronic disease.

Note: I said NOTHING about thimersol. Although I would certainly choose to avoid exposure to it, that is for me a minor concern. My concern is the blind rush to vaccinate our children against every possible illness, regardless of how serious the illness is, regardless of how many illnesses we are exposing our children's immune systems to nearly simultaneously and at a very young age, and regardless of whether the population being vaccinated (or an associated population with which that population can be expected to come into contact) receives any benefit.

[Tumbulu]

128. Excellent post, thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us. (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Because allergies are an actual issue with vaccines.

Where as autism is not.

You realize that autism and allergies are two unrelated things, right?

"And how is it you and a small number of zealots who defend the rising tide of vaccination without ANY attempt at objectivity on the matter never have the intellectual honesty to admit that there is a set percentage of infants who will either die, be permanently injured due to vaccination. That is just a scientific fact."

Oh, puh-leeze. The anti-vaccers have no ground to stand on when it comes to objectivity and intellectual honesty.

[seabeyond]

44. i have also read where other countries do the mump and measle shots seperately.

the u.s. has the shot in one.

i dont know what the cause is. something is effecting the children. i am not opposed to vaccination. some, when they are for corporate greed or whatever. but most i am for.

maybe something to do with increase in mercury in our food we consume. when they tell preg women not to eat tuna, makes me wonder.

but of course, i dont have the answer.

i would rather find a solution than just call people names and their children cause of the pro/anti vac battle.

i have my own story with my oldest.... a life of different.

they arent any more disposable as any of the other children.

[Ms. Toad]

101. Some studies have shown a correlation between

near simultaneous exposure to the viruses that cause mumps and measles and inflammatory bowel disease (a chronic, life threatening group of conditions).

Causation has not been shown, to my knowledge, but since there is correlation and the cost of separating the vaccinations is near zero there is no reason to insist that they be given in a single vaccination.

See my post above. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4916393&mesg_id=4928272

[spoony]

45. How immediately?

Are we talking about a week or month or more? I suppose the shorter the elapsed time the more likely I'd be to accept the connexion.

[Jim__]

123. The sickness often comes within a few days.

The diagnosis often doesn't come 'til months later. Whenever I listen to the parents speak, they say the onset of the illness was within a few days. When I listen to people who deny the connections, they say there is only a vague connection and the diagnosis didn't come 'til months later. Often both statements are true. For instance, read the government document in the Hannah Poling case. She got a temperature of 102.3 degrees 2 days after the vaccine. The temperature and sickness hung on for 10 days. Her mother immediately called the pediatrician. Hannah essentially never came out of it. She is now autistic. She was not diagnosed with "features of autistic disorder" until months later. She is severly autistic. Listen to an interview of her father who is a neurologist. I have been told that Hannah's Poling's autism is only vaguely connected to her disease because she wasn't diagnosed for months. Read the document and see if you think her symptoms are more directly connected to her disease than a diagnosis some months later.

Here is a 5 minute interview with a former director of the NIH on the research that needs to be done. Listen to what she says and see if it is reasonable.

[unc70]

47. Might be disruption of brain stem cells -- not vaccine related

The disruption of normal activiity of brain stem cells by trauma or ischemic event appears a promising research area for autism, Retts, and a lot of other things. Mouse models have been developed with defective genes corresponding to several of these diseases and research is now progressing rapidly.

Not sure what the "answers" will be, but I am "almost certain" that vaccinations are a huge distraction that prevents resources from being used for basic research needed to unravel this problem.

[cureautismnow]

51. The former head of the NIH does not think it's a "distraction."

"I think public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as 'irrational,' without sufficient studies of causation... without studying the population that got sick," Dr. Healy told CBS's Sharyl Attkisson. "I have not seen major studies that focus on 300 kids who got autistic symptoms within a period of a few weeks of the vaccines."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_16294.cfm

[TrogL]

61. Good. Let's go for it

I wonder if they'll be able to come up with a cohort of 300 kids?

[unc70]

64. Those in basic cell research have a different view

I can not prove what causes autism, but I am certain what constitutes an excessive focus on one possibility while denigrating research in other areas or studies that fail to support that "one". The null hypothesis is not designed to "disprove" anything, it just determines that something is unlikely -- thus there is always room for more study and more disagreement.

The cell biology and neurobiology researchers are making some major progress in these areas recently, in spite of having to buck various opposition on all sides. I remember when autism was still attributed to bad parenting (about 40 years ago) before the late Eric Schopler here at UNC began to change that view. I don't believe that autism is caused by vaccinations any more than I believe it is caused by bad parenting.

What would it take to change your mind about the causes of autism? Would mice with a defective gene that mimics the human disease be enough? Or maybe an embyonic "event" that deprived part of the brain of oxygen, an event that can be replicated in lab animals? Or maybe a blood test that would detect autism in a fetus? Would finding something like one of these be enough to make you change your mind?

[cureautismnow]

71. Simple. Compare the ASD rates of vaccinated v. un-vaccinated kids.

Does common sense ever enter into the equation?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. There need to be intensive epidemiological studies on children with autism

For one thing, autism is rising in Japan, which has never had mercury in its vaccines.

I'm wondering about other environmental factors for autistic disorders that aren't present at birth, such as soy-based formulas, plastic nursing bottles, too much exposure to car exhaust, too much exposure to electronics and not enough to human interaction, etc.

I'm not saying that any one of these is necessarily the cause. I'm just saying that these are the types of things that need to be investigated: diet and home and outside environment.

[depakid]

60. There are studies going on

the trouble is there are likely multiple factors involved involinge predispositions, environmental exposures and maybe pathogens.

My bet is that exposure to endocrine disruptors will be implicated as one of the major culprits- as their use in countries like Japan and the US has been rising over the years (even as other possible exposures have remained relatively constant) -and there's some recent evidence that unusual hormone levels in utero (testosterone) are associated with autism.

These relationships are tricky to uncover- requiring folks to grasp complex interactions, whereas making a connection to the vaccination schedule only requires a simple time sequence viewed retrospectively- often with parental remorse about "what they might have done."

[seabeyond]

65. i wish i had gotten the shots for my children differently, lol. that

has already run thru my head.

[cureautismnow]

46. Another bogus study manufactured by the CDC.

"The study, funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, drew praise from outside experts."

Someone please point me to a CDC/NIH/Big Pharma study that compares U.S. autism rates of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. This one isn't it. The control group should be unvaccinated. Otherwise, it's junk science.

Actually, it's really quite simple to do.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

"We surveyed over 9,000 boys in California and Oregon and found that vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys." - Generation Rescue
-

[earth mom]

55. Yep-another bogus study by the CDC.

They really are grasping at straws aren't they? :eyes:



p.s. I LOVE your user name. :thumbsup:

[depakid]

62. Anything that doesn't confirm a conspiracy theory is therefore bogus!

Damn the science- full speed ahead....

[trotsky]

67. Damn that CDC! They have power over Italians, too!

:crazy:

[depakid]

68. and the Aussies! and the Brits!

all of whom have universal health care and pay for any adverse reactions or consequences of treatment.

They like PhARMA so much they're willing to turn over big money with no return- and risk the health of their voting populations just to get in their good graces!

[cureautismnow]

69. Thanks. I like yours, too. If only the powers-that-be

would follow your pseudonym.

It's bewildering that we send our tax dollars overseas to pay for fraudulent research when the matter could easily be settled right here and now in the U.S. - Compare the U.S. ASD rates of vaccinated v. un-vaccinated kids.

What are they afraid of? :shrug:

[depakid]

97. "What are they afraid of?" How about ETHICS

-and the IRB (both of which you'd know about if you had the slightest clue- or in the case of ethics, had even the slightest tint of it).

[varkam]

82. Ohhh! A *survey* by *Generation Rescue*!

You can't buy objectivity like that!

:rofl:

[cureautismnow]

84. Conducted by SurveyUSA for under 200K.

Why can't the CDC or NIH perform such a similar study?

Again, what are they afraid of?

[varkam]

87. Probably because surveys are crap when looking at questions of causation.

You do understand that, right?

It's funny to me that you seek to take apart a study that wasn't even originally designed to test the mercury hypothesis on the basis that they received funding from the CDC (nevermind that these were Italian researchers) but you then float a survey that was funded by Generation Rescue and manage to keep a straight face.

Is it only biased when the study disagrees with your beliefs? Cause I mean there are several studies now, conducted by different researchers, that all point to the conclusion that there's not a connection between vaccines and autism and your belief is that it is some kind of world-wide conspiracy? You might want to loosen your tin-foil hat a little bit; I think it might be cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

[cureautismnow]

105. Several studies?

Really? Give me a link that points to a U.S. study conducted that examines the ASD rates between vaccinated kids and un-vaccinated kids. Just one.

Did you ever consider the idea that they might have used non-smokers as a control group to determine the hypothesis that smoking can lead to cancer?

Epi. surveys are crap, too, correct?

[varkam]

106. Are US kids somehow different from kids around the world?

For a while now, woos in wooville have been yammering for a randomized study on this, but now I'm pretty sure the goalposts will shift since there is one that shows no effect (and indeed, they have moved, since now we need a study on US kids apparently).

I know that you're desperately clinging to the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism, and that's fine - I know that nothing I say or show you will change your mind. You already believe that vaccines cause autism, and so anything that says otherwise must be flawed in some fashion. It's an article of faith. Why would I go through the trouble of digging up a few studies for you just for you to pontificate on how wrong / biased / corrupt the researchers are?

And I was referring to paper-and-pencil interview-type surveys...you know, the type that GR did.

[cureautismnow]

111. And I'm still patiently waiting for your link to a v vs. uv study

And you're desperately clinging to the hypothesize that it's doesn't cause autism. You closed the door. Dr. Healy has not. Do you profess to know more about autism and vaccines than the former head of the NIH?

Regarding the survey, it was a telephone survey. The same type of survey that the CDC uses. Confess. You didn't read the article.

"Generation Rescue chose to use telephone interviews with parents to gather data on children, so as to closely mirror the methodology the CDC uses to establish national prevalence for NDs such as ADHD and autism through their national phone survey of parent responses. Generation Rescue chose to focus on children ages 4-17 to match the age range used by CDC.

Are parent responses a reliable indicator of a child's diagnostic status? According to Dr. Laura Schieve, co-author of the CDC's national phone survey study, in discussing the CDC's two phone surveys on autism prevalence, "the consistency of prevalence estimates across the two surveys supports high reliability or reproducibility of parental report of autism and reliability is one important component of validity."

[varkam]

114. Lol!

And you're desperately clinging to the hypothesize that it's doesn't cause autism. You closed the door. Dr. Healy has not. Do you profess to know more about autism and vaccines than the former head of the NIH?

I love arguments from authority! Tell me - where did Dr. Healy say that "vaccines cause autism"? Oh waitaminute, she didn't! Oh, and can you show me *one* study (I'll take mine from anywhere in the world, not just the US) that hasn't been found to have been pulled out of a hat that shows vaccines cause autism? I'll be waiting (for a long time, I'm predicting).

Regarding the survey, it was a telephone survey. The same type of survey that the CDC uses. Confess. You didn't read the article.

Oh except that the CDC doesn't use telephone surveys to look at questions of causation. You apparently did not read your own quote, which is quite sad. Here, let me help you:

"Generation Rescue chose to use telephone interviews with parents to gather data on children, so as to closely mirror the methodology the CDC uses to establish national prevalence for NDs such as ADHD and autism through their national phone survey of parent responses. Generation Rescue chose to focus on children ages 4-17 to match the age range used by CDC.

Notice how what the CDC uses such surveys for are to establish prevalence data, whereas what GR was using them for was to try to establish causation. There's a big difference between those two purposes! You see, when actual scientists want to know if event A causes thing B, they conduct an actual experiment and don't just call parents for their thoughts.

Wake me when you get something for me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. We need much more information.

My local paper used the very same headline when posting this article page 1 above the fold.

a) why did the CDC choose to conduct this test in Italy?
b) did the study use the same criteria for autism as we use? DSM IV? Does the difference between our diagnostic criteria and theirs render the study irrelevant?
c) why does their rate of occurrence differ from ours by a factor of ten?

[Mike 03]

58. Maybe it will turn out to be a combination of genetic predisposition and environment.

I'm fascinated by the studies that demonstrate a higher prevalence of Autism where there is more rainfall, which could be related to a lack of Vitamin D. Lack of Vitamin D is beginning to become implicated in a whole host of illnesses, including multiple sclerosis and certain types of cancer.

By the same token, that could also represent a link between pesticides/fungicides or other drugs or chemicals being washed into the water system and either entering the body (of the mother, perhaps) through a bath/shower or through drinking water.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. I believe it IS a combination of both

But the trick is going to be finding the environmental link.

[Mike 03]

70. Yes, I agree. We need some sort of "Manhattan Project" type examination

into the causes of these diseases.

[kitfalbo]

66. duh.

Agitator's and other aspects are more of an issue. There is also the chance of mimicry.

Example: Certain poisonings like mercury can cause autistic like symptoms that can lead to misdiagnosis.

For the sudden onset of AS or autism, most of that is probably due to an allergy or some other factor. Having food sensitivities to dairy or wheat often aggravate autistic behavior's and a change in diet can cause improvement in some aspects. The abundance of processes foods probably is not helping the population.

But as they say proper diet and exercise, generally helps in lots of situations.

[missingthebigdog]

74. As the mother of three children with autism

I agree that there is likely an immune system issue, and that allergies may be a triggering factor. I will even go so far as to say that allergic reactions of the mother during gestation may be a trigger.

I also believe, however, that there are too many cases wherein autistic symptoms appear shortly after vaccination for that not to be a trigger. That is not to say the vaccinations cause autism, but to discount them as a trigger would be irresponsible.

I am really tired of well meaning people suggesting that casein and glutein (dairy and wheat) or other nutritional issues are the culprit. This implies that, were I to only feed my 14 year old, non-verbal, self-injurious daughter appropriately, she would be giving speeches on non-violent communication and caring for all of her own personal hygiene needs. Why anyone would think that a parent would choose to live the life we live, when the solution is so simple, is beyond me. WE HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING. Still, every school year, I get to hear the nutritional lecture, and in every thread, and often from strangers at the grocery store. If the solution were so simple, autism would not be a problem.

It is a problem. It is not overdiagnosis, or internet self-diagnosis, or the result of parents who are unable to appropriately discipline their children. It is 1 in 150. It is costing our medical and educational systems extraordinary amounts of money, and we are getting NOWHERE. My kids are 17, 15, and 14 now. There are no interventions available now that weren't available in 1997 when they were diagnosed. And still we fight to get even those interventions. I am tired. I am overwhelmed. I am afraid of what will happen to my kids when I am to old to care for them. I am angry that W foisted this ridiculous NCLB law upon us that creates resentment toward all children with special needs and just gives schools more incentive to warehouse my kids. I am ready for a little more money to go toward dealing with the problem, and a little less toward studying it.

[elleng]

76. (((missingthebigdog)))

.

[seabeyond]

77. i hear ya.... i am with you

on a big hug, too.

tired. that is real

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. +1 n/t

[depakid]

90. "cases wherein autistic symptoms appear shortly after vaccination"

Since responsible parents all vaccinate their kids according to the current pediatric vaccination schedule, and since symptoms of autism are generally not noticed until after these vaccinations (anywhere from 12 - 24 months, with screening recommended at 18-24 months) then of course certain people are going to infer some sort of connection.

But that's a spurious inference- just as it's spurious for me to conclude that it's probably going to rain when I wash my car (even if it does seem to occur with annoying frequency).

Hopefully, researchers will find those factors- and will also find more effective therapies and treatment for all the kids who develop autistically, so that they can lead more rewarding lives.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. Question.

How do you know it's not over-diagnosis?

[earth mom]

115. I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through.

I agree with you that more money should be put toward dealing with problem-especially since these kids are quickly growing up and will need care the rest of their lives.

Which of course is why the pharma giants have put out so much disinformation and weaseled out of any responsibility for what they have wrought-because they don't want to pay the billions of dollars in claims they are responsible for.

May those bastards and their supporters on this thread ROT IN HELL!!! :grr:

[Obamarama]

75. Want an insight into how the decision to NOT vaccinate affects everyone else? Listen to this:

Heard this last month on NPR's This American Life. It just underscores how ridiculously self-absorbed the "I'm-not-going-to-vaccinate" nincompoop brigade is.


RUINING IT FOR THE REST OF US:
Stories of people who ruin things for everyone else...or who are accused of that. Like the San Diego parents who didn't vaccinate their child for measles (pictured at left: measles virus). When their seven-year-old caught the disease on an overseas trip, this decision became a whole community's problem. The outbreak infected 11 children and endangered many others.

Act One. Shots in the Dark.

Measles cases are higher in the U.S. than they've been in a decade, mostly because more and more nervous parents are refusing to vaccinate their kids. Contributing Editor Susan Burton tells the story of what happened recently in San Diego, when an unvaccinated 7-year-old boy returned home from a trip to Switzerland, bringing with him the measles. By the end of the ordeal, 11 other children caught the disease, and more than 60 kids had to be quarantined. (21 minutes)

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1275

[cureautismnow]

85. Thank the 282 families compensated for MMR-related injuries or deaths,

as revealed in the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

http://www.hrsa.gov/Vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

I'm sure they sleep well at night knowing that their sacrifices have made you and others feel "safe and protected."

[trotsky]

92. Perfect example of the ignorance in the vaccine debate.

Thank you for the illustration.

[depakid]

98. This poster really takes the cake

One would ordinarily just have to laugh, except that in this day and age, people like that are capable of doing a LOT of damage- and causing a lot of innocent kids and parents to suffer needlessly via repetition misinformation and paranoia.

[cureautismnow]

113. I take that as a compliment from one who didn't know that the

Verstraeten study reached a neutral conclusion.

[cureautismnow]

103. Ignorance? Your side has caused irrefutable, documented harm to children.

You must be so proud of yourself.

[trotsky]

104. Measles, rubella, polio, HiB, and other diseases used to cause orders of magnitude more.

You must be so proud of your ignorance.

[cureautismnow]

107. My ignorance was vaccinating my only child. n/t

[varkam]

108. Nah. I'm pretty sure it's something else. eom

[cureautismnow]

109. Nah. I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Thanks for your concern, though.

[varkam]

110. Hey - no problem. eom

[Name removed]

112. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

120. Yes, there definitely is a reason for the Vaccine Injury Fund

its to protect Big Pharma from what would normally be a huge liability
from its products.

You will find that some in the Health Forum will defend any and all vaccines
for any and all ages of people.

There is no middle way with them, and anyone who disagrees with them will be
labeled "antivaxxers".

I has pissed me off so much that instead of being harassed away from the Health Forum
I post more articles.

We need more people who weigh all of the facts and who don't defend Big Pharma's
every move - in this forum.

In other forums you will see your view respected far more than in this one at the current time.

An OP that had 135 recommends in the GD was attacked in this forum.

[.... callchet ....]

94. They are still overlooking the people that are

allergic or sensitive to heavy metals.

[AngryAmish]

95. Maybe organic foods cause autism

There have been a great increase in the use of organic food over the last few decades while autism diagnoses have increased during the same period.

[TrogL]

116. Maybe cell phones cause autism

Remember those big old Motorola white brick phones? That's when the autism numbers really took off.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. I blame the Large Hadron Collider.

There were no cases of autism until last August. And all cases of autism have been suspended until they can fix the liquid helium problem, hopefully by late spring.

[xchrom]

121. once again -- no link.

and the responses from the anti-vaxers are nothing short of bizarre.

[cosmik debris]

122. It can't be said strongly enough

"Many doctors now argue that reporters should treat the antivaccine lobby with the same indifference they do Holocaust deniers, AIDS deniers and those claiming to have proof that NASA faked the Moon landings."

[xchrom]

124. ...

"Many doctors now argue that reporters should treat the antivaccine lobby with the same indifference they do Holocaust deniers, AIDS deniers and those claiming to have proof that NASA faked the Moon landings."

[conscious evolution]

126. Let me guess

The doctors saying this work for a drug company.

[varkam]

127. Dun dun dun! Conspiracy foiled!

:rofl:

[xchrom]

129. kick

[xchrom]

130. kick