Why parents are encouraged to get their infants / toddlers Hepatitis B vaccination series:

[Heddi]

I've seen many posts on here poo-pooing the idea of Hep B for babies. "My child isn't around IV drug users" "My toddler isn't going to be having UNPROTECTED SEX anytime soon :snort:"

Well, here is why your infant/toddler should get hepatitis B:

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/index.htm
Hepatitis B is a liver disease caused by the hepatitis B virus (HBV). It ranges in severity from a mild illness, lasting a few weeks (acute), to a serious long-term (chronic) illness that can lead to liver disease or liver cancer.

Transmission: Contact with infectious blood, semen, and other body fluids from having sex with an infected person, sharing contaminated needles to inject drugs, or from an infected mother to her newborn.

Vaccination: Hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for all infants, older children and adolescents who were not vaccinated previously, and adults at risk for HBV infection

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HBV/HBVfaq.htm#treatment

HBV is transmitted through activities that involve percutaneous (i.e., puncture through the skin) or mucosal contact with infectious blood or body fluids (e.g., semen, saliva), including

* Sex with an infected partner
* Injection drug use that involves sharing needles, syringes, or drug-preparation equipment
* Birth to an infected mother
* Contact with blood or open sores of an infected person
* Needle sticks or sharp instrument exposures
* Sharing items such as razors or toothbrushes with an infected person

---My own commentary---

Just from the post above, Hep B is transmitted if the skin is broken (percutaneous) or mucosal, and comes in contact with infectious body fluids (saliva being one)

Knowing many toddlers in my life, there is one thing that toddlers do...they BITE. Biting causes the skin to be broken (percutaneous infection) and introduces infectious body fluids (saliva) into that open wound. Alternately, the one biting can have infectious body fluids (blood) introduced into their oral mucosa (mouth)

....
From the 2nd link above:

How serious is chronic HBV infection?

Approximately 25% of those who become chronically infected during childhood and 15% of those who become chronically infected after childhood die prematurely from cirrhosis or liver cancer, and the majority remain asymptomatic until onset of cirrhosis or end-stage liver disease. In the United States, chronic HBV infection results in an estimated 2,000–4,000 deaths per year


http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HBV/PerinatalXmtn.htm

Hepatitis B virus (HBV) infection in a pregnant woman poses a serious risk to her infant at birth. Without postexposure immunoprophylaxis, approximately 40% of infants born to HBV-infected mothers in the United States will develop chronic HBV infection, approximately one-fourth of whom will eventually die from chronic liver disease.

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Statistics.htm



Incidence of hepatitis B, United States
Year
Reported Acute Cases Estimated Acute Cases Estimated Total New Infections
1980 19,014
53,000
208,000
1981 21,151
59,000 229,000
1982 22,176
62,000 239,000
1983 24,319
68,000 267,000
1984 26,116
73,000 281,000
1985 26,612
74,000 287,000
1986 26,106
73,000 283,000
1987 25,915
72,000 287,000
1988 23,175
65,000 253,000
1989 23,421
65,000 255,000
1990 21,277
59,000 232,000
1991 17,911
50,000 193,000
1992 16,126 45,000 175,000
1993 13,361 37,000 144,000
1994 12,517 35,000 133,000
1995 10,805 30,000 113,000
1996 10,637 30,000 112,000
1997 10,416 29,000 110,000
1998 10,258 29,000 109,000
1999 7,694 21,000 79,000
2000 8,036 22,000 81,000
2001 7,844 22,000 78,000
2002 8,064 23,000 79,000
2003 7,526 21,000 73,000
2004 6,212 17,000 60,000
2005 5,494 15,000 51,000
2006 4,758 13,000 46,000

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/SurveillanceGuidelines.htm

Acute and chronic HBV infections are a major cause of morbidity and mortality in the United States. Acute hepatitis B is one of the most commonly reported vaccine preventable diseases; in 2000, 8036 cases were reported (Annual summary of notifiable diseases, 2001). However, because most newly infected persons are asymptomatic 3, and because even symptomatic persons are underreported 4, reported hepatitis B cases markedly underestimate the incidence of HBV infection Based on catalytic modeling of data from the second and third National Health and Nutrition Examination Surveys, the estimated number of new infections in 2000 was 81,000, a decrease of 70% from a peak of approximately 280,000 in the mid-1980's. In addition to acute disease, approximately 1.25 million persons in the United States have chronic HBV infection. These persons are at increased risk for chronic liver disease, including cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma, and they are the major reservoir of ongoing HBV transmission.

Less than 5% of the HBV infections that occur among children are reported as cases of acute hepatitis B to CDC because HBV infections that occur in infants and children rarely produce signs or symptoms of disease.Furthermore, chronic HBV infection develops in approximately 90% of children infected at birth and 30%-60% of children infected between 1 to 5 years of age compared with 2%-6% of older children and adults; thus, prior to routine immunoprophylaxis of infants and children, cases occurring in children accounted for a disproportionate amount of the disease burden due to chronic infection.

In addition to infections occurring in childhood, CDC estimates that 20,000 (95% confidence interval, 15,000 to 32,000) infants are born to HBsAg positive mothers each year 5. Post-exposure prophylaxis is highly effective in preventing transmission of HBV from mother to infant. However, an estimated 1000 of these infants become chronically infected with HBV each year because not all infected mothers are identified and not all infants receive appropriate post-exposure prophylaxis. Although perinatal HBV infections have been nationally notifiable since 1995, reported cases have not been reliable for monitoring the number of perinatal infections that are occurring in the United States because of a lack of follow-up serologic testing of infants born to infected mothers.
----------

So....in a nutshell for those who have problems with big words:

1) Children bite other children and can spread Hepatitis B that way
2) Infected mothers can transmit HBV to their infants during childbirth
--a) Not all mothers who are HBV positive are identified prior to giving birth
3) The number of reported cases and suspected cases are very different because not everyone is tested for Hepatitis B, especially since the virus can remain dormant, therefore, causing a person to be asymptomatic, never raising the alarm to be tested

THEREFORE, you don't KNOW that you don't have Hepatitis B unless you've been tested.
THEREFORE, you don't KNOW that anyone your child comes in contact with doesn't have Hepatitis B unless THEY've been tested, and told you the results
THEREFORE, you don't KNOW that your child will never come into contact with another person's blood, semen, or saliva.

Give this a chew:

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/child_sexual_abuse

Child sexual abuse has been reported up to 80,000 times a year, but the number of unreported instances is far greater...

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsabuse1.htm#24

A recent Department of Justice report found that half of the women who reported rapes in 1992 were under the age of 18, 16 percent were under 12

Children are most vulnerable between ages eight-12. The average age for first abuse is 9.9 years for boys and 9.6 years for girls.6 Victimization occurs before age eight in over 20 percent of the cases. Another study found 24 percent of female child sexual abuse survivors were first abused at age five or younger.

The National Resource Council estimates the percent of the U.S. population which has been sexually abused to range from a low of 20-24 percent to a high of 54-62 percent of the population; the higher estimate includes sexualized exposure without touching, such as masturbating in front of the child. The largest retrospective study on the prevalence of child sexual abuse found 27 percent of women and 16 percent of men reported abuse.

Studies examining victimization of boys have recorded rates ranging from 3 to 31 percent of all men.

--------
So the chances of your child biting, or being bitten by a child are, I would suppose, pretty good. I cannot find exact statistics of children who bite children, but out of 25 children I have known, plus myself (that makes 26), 100% of them have bitten, or were bitten by another child at some time in their life.

Then there's also the very high chance that your child could be the victim of child sexual abuse and come into contact with blood and body fluids that way.

Hep B is also spread via fecal matter as well, especially fecal matter that makes its way into a cut, or comes into contact with mucosa. I think that the number of children in daycare or nursery school that wear diapers is pretty high. The number of children who scratch their butt then don't wash their hands is pretty high as well....2 year olds aren't known for their hygeine standards.

So actually, your child has a pretty fucking good chance at being EXPOSED to hepatitis B. Isn't that enough reason to vaccinate? Or are you 100% certain that every person you know, every person your child will ever come into contact with EVER until they're 18 years old, is hepatitis B negative? You're willing to risk your child's liver and possibly their life on that? Seriously?

[uppityperson]

1. Here's another. Will your kid ever be around someone or somewhere someone had a nosebleed?

or another type of bleeding. Hep B virus can last a long time on seemingly clean surfaces. Will your kid ever be around someone who had a nosebleed and every bit wasn't wiped enough with bleach? How about a kid has a nose bleed and a bit of blood gets on a book, or other surface (I know, I'm reaching, but the virus can survive on a "clean" dry surface for some time).

[Heddi]

4. Yes, you're right

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/B/bFAQ.htm#transmission

How long does the hepatitis B virus survive outside the body?

Hepatitis B virus can survive outside the body at least 7 days. During that time, the virus can still cause infection if it enters the body of a person who is not infected.

How should blood spills be cleaned from surfaces to make sure that hepatitis B virus is gone?

All blood spills — including those that have already dried — should be cleaned and disinfected with a mixture of bleach and water (one part household bleach to 10 parts water). Gloves should always be used when cleaning up any blood spills. Even dried blood can present a risk to others.

[uppityperson]

7. from a parent, subsitute TA, and health care provider, it can be an issue

Kids getting nose bleeds at schools are handled much differently than they used to be, no pun intended. Hep B is a scary and very nasty virus.

[Heddi]

10. I'm glad that they are handled differently

infection control is a MAJOR issue, not just for health care providers, but for EVERYONE.

Today at work there was a lecture by the infection control officer at my hospital. She said she was talking to her sister in law who is a kindergarten teacher. She was telling her SIL to make sure to have the kids wash their hands after going potty and before eating, and the SIL said "We have too many kids and not enough time for them to wash their hands"!!! Talk about shocking!

In nursing school, each class had to do a project on health teaching to some population---someone in the hospital being taught about their diagnosis, whatever.

The big teaching project to do was to go to a local daycare or kindergarten and do a teaching on proper handwashing for the kids. Have them sing the ABC song while washing their hands. That is a great population to teach because not everyone knows the 15-to-20 second rule for washing hands. Hell, I don't always wash my hands for 15 seconds and I'm a NURSE and know better (I do at work, though, and when leaving the potty).

I am glad that people are using more alcohol-based hand sanitizers. You see those Purell bottles everywhere, hanging on people's bags and sitting on desks. They're all over the hospital and work great for hands that are dirty, but have not been in direct contact with blood or body fluids or that are visibly soiled. But a quick spray after you use the phone, or computer, or other public area is a great idea. I often take the bus and always sanitize after I get off the bus. I could not IMAGINE the ickies that are on the hand rails and hand hooks. Ick!

ETA---the one thing I wish we could get OUT of our system is the need for antibacterial EVERYTHING. Wanna know why there are outbreaks of MRSA and VRE and other antibiotic-resistant bacteria springing up everywhere? Well, not only are we (as a society) not taking antibiotics correctly (taking them for viral infections, taking them for bacterial infections but not finishing the entire dose as prescribed), but EVERYTHING is antibacterial. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY.

I was at Fred Meyer about a year ago or so and there was antibacterial SHAMPOO. Seriously.

Soap and water are PERFECT for hands and hair and feet. 10% bleach and 90% water solution is great for non-porous surfaces. All this antibacterial this and that...totally unnecessary and just adding to these problems that are unfairly blamed on healthcare workers and hospital workers. I SWEAR we are not causing the problem as much as over-eager parents who want to sanitize their children!

[Digit]

2. I'll rec this

I don't have young children, but have started the Hep A&B vaccine myself since I am entering the healthcare field.

[Heddi]

6. Thank you. What are you planning on doing in healthcare?

I got my HepB when I was going to nursing school, and just got my HepA when hubby and I went to Thailand. I'd give my right booby for a Hep C vaccine.

[Digit]

12. I am in school for cna

I guess I will see how it goes.

[Tumbulu]

3. So, in 2006 there were less than 5000 acute cases

of this disease in the entire US population....down from 1986's high of ~26,000. What percentage of the US population is that? How long has this vaccine been around? Is this reduction in number of acute cases from the vaccine or from some other improvement or just that no one has health coverage anymore so that the percentage of people being tested is way down? Or have tattoo parlors cleaned up their acts?

Does anyone know which hepatitis is spread by vegetables grown around human waste? I used to have to get gamma-globulin for it back in Peace Corps days. And soak all vegetables in iodine, etc.

[Heddi]

5. The hepatitis vaccine was introduced in 1982

You can see that the reported cases have gone down tremendously since the 1980's due to more frequent testing of at-risk population. However, the suspected cases are much higher than the reported cases because not everyone that needs to be tested IS tested, unfortunately

I think that tattoo parlours have cleaned up their acts. Most states have sterilization requirements for tattoo parlours and I know where I live, they are under the jurisdiction of the Dept of Health and go through routine and random examinations just like hospitals and other DOH-governed facilities are.

I know that the clean-up of Tattoo parlours has decreased the rate of HepC, which, unfortunately is growing in its population of infected individuals, but 1) there is no vaccine or curative treatment for HepC, and 2) it's not really a publicized threat to the general population.

The hepatitis that is spread by contaminated food is HepA, which there is a vaccine for, and many people get through fecal-contaminated water and food, but it is an acute illness, does not cause liver damage, and is self resolving for most people. When you think of Delhi Belly or Montezuma's Revenge, that's kind of along the lines of HepA. There is a vaccine for that ... 2 shots (or 1 shot then a shot of IgA (immunoglobulin A) for people that are traveling to high risk areas....I just went to Thailand and got the shot for safety.

I am an RN, and I work at a community hospital that serves primarily the homeless, drug addicts, uninsured, jail inmates, working poor, and we are starting to do alot more surveillance Hepatitis and HIV testing on these folks because many of them are high risk for transmission and infection, and they are not seen regularly by health care providers that should see trends of infection....coming in for fevers and chills for the last few months, etc. If I went to my Dr every few weeks with chills, or dark urine, or frequent yeast infections, I would probably be tested for HIV or Hepatitis. But if I were uninsured, and only went to the hospital for emergencies, and didn't tell my health care provider about the dark urine I had for 2 months, or the 6 month run of yeast infections, those tests aren't going to automatically be done.

Now we're starting to just for patient information and safety and treatment. A patient can be better treated if we know their underlying illness is HIV, and that's why they keep coming back with pneumonia, or yeast infections, rather than just treating the pneumonias or yeast infections as isolated, single events.

[Tumbulu]

8. Thank you for such thorough answers

I am going to look up and see if I ever got the hepA vaccine....I just remember those huge very painful gamma shots. I had to get lots of vaccines to be allowed to travel to India about 12 years ago, but I think most of them only lasted for a few years.

[Heddi]

9. With Hep A, though

once you've gotten it "naturally", for lack of a better term, you've got natural immunity for life. I believe that the Hep A shot is also a lifetime immunity as well.

If you don't have the papers, and aren't sure, you can always have titers drawn at your Doctor's office. They're very inexpensive and they do titers for Hep A and B, chicken pox (varicella), and Measles Mumps and Rubella.

Chances are, if you went to India, you prob got Hep A shot or infection...seriously. It self resolves except for people that get dehydrated via diarrhea and have to get IV fluids for rehydration, but most people who get HepA don't know that they've gotten it until a titer is drawn. And I'm pretty sure (not for certain, though) that the immunoglobulin shots convey immunity as a vaccine would.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

42. I have a funny Hep A story for you.

Working on a med floor in a hospital in Dec. I was off a couple days and returned to all the staff walking funny. Turns out a patient had made a cheese platter for the staff for x-mas and everyone who ate any had to have gamma globulin shots since it turned out pt had Hep A. Only 2 of us escaped since we were the only 2 who were off both days the cheese was around.

I thought it was funny but my co-workers didn't.

[argyl]

14. There is treatment for Hepatitis C. I'm speaking from personal experience.

In early 2001 I was diagnosed with Hep C.I remember the day well. I'd had routine bloodwork done at my primary physician's office and expected the usual results,everything fine,but two enzymes,ALT (alanine aminotransferase) and AST (aspartate amino transferase) were quite elevated,an indicator of Hep C. Needless to say,I'd had better days.

It was late in the day,about 5:00 PM,when I was told this but an appointment was made to see a gastroenterologist immediately,even though he was about done for the day.

Bloodwork was done and I did indeed have a high viral load of Hep C. I felt fine,high viral load and all.

I was put on a regimen of three subcutaneous interferon shots a week,self administered,along with five capsules of ribavirin taken daily.I did this for a year and it was one miserable experience.At times my mood would swing from psychotic to homicidal to suicidal.The symptoms were supposed to decrease over time but that was not the case with me. At years end I felt as if I'd completed a really grueling marathon. But at least I'd managed to keep from killing myself or anyone else.

But after three months the viral load had dropped steeply and after six months it was nondetectible and stayed there until I was done with the treatment from hell.Irregardless of nondetectible viral load, the full year was required. Viral loads are determined by PCR,or polymerase chain reaction,a DNA gel procedure that is quite precise.

I've had no detectible viral load for almost eight years now.I was indeed fortunate. Many people have had no success with this treatment. Five years virus free and most(maybe all)insurance companies no longer regard it as a preexisting condition. I know this by inquiry. But this is a virus,they're tricky(My own nasty little friend probably lay dormant for at least 20 years before it reared its ugly little head),and I'll continue to monitor my enzyme levels and viral load (hopefully a lack thereof).

It's my understanding that other treatment options are available that are less debilitating,with others yet being researched.I sincerely hope I'll never need to use them.

[uppityperson]

43. I am glad you are better. Very glad since it can be a really nasty thing.

[argyl]

45. Thank you. n/t

[xchrom]

11. off to the greatest

[truedelphi]

13. Unfortunately, none of the research that you are citing points to an outright dismissal

Of Michael Belkin's research that far fewer newborns suffer problems with the illness called Hep B than newborns inoculated and then die or suffer major health problems after being vaccinated. In other words, you are putting your newborn at much greater risk by the vaccination than if you left the child un vaccinated. None of your graphs mention incidence of hep B for under the age of one year.

You have never interviewed Belkin. I have. You can post all the graphs you want but the bottom line remains - more babies are injured and or killed by the vaccine than are affected by hepatitis B, at least among those infants who reside inside a normal middle class population.

However, here is a reason for the vaccine corporations to want you to have your newborn vaccinated. That is because among the many risks that Hep b vaccine poses (outside of outright death) are these: migraine headaches, paralysis, Multiple sclerosis, increased risk of allergies and asthma, learning disabilities and immune system compromise.

Originally the vaccination companies wanted to mandate that all children have the vaccine at the age of twelve. Then it occurred to them - the vaccine might injure a child who had an established history of health. Injure a newborn with paralysis and what can the parents say? They saw the infant for one hour before it was whisked away for its inoculations. They cannot sue the vaccine manufacturers for paralysis. Or for migraines, or for any of the other problems that the vaccine may cause. They have no proof that the baby really was healthy.

But if a vaccine injures a twelve year old, then the parents have ample proof of the child's having been healthy. The videos of the child, the testimony of the soccer coach, the neighbors next door - all these people and records can be brought into a court case to say that the child was healthy until the day of the vaccination.

[trotsky]

15. Prove this claim:

more babies are injured and or killed by the vaccine than are affected by hepatitis B

Prove it. Show the statistics.

[cosmik debris]

16. Well, somebody told congress it was true and that makes it true

Just ask that baseball player who just got busted for lying to congress.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100523940

[truedelphi]

17. Here's a link and some chosen key paragraphs

The "I" in this report is Michael Belkin

The report is from the year 2000 (I believe)
http://tinyurl.com/bj3omt

<snip>the FDA presented a seemingly reassuring study from its Vaccine Adverse Effects Reporting System (VAERS), which showed only 19 neonatal deaths reported since 1991 related to Hepatitis B vaccination.

I found the VAERS study data to be completely deceptive. Since I was sitting in that room and my daughter had died during their sample period and she wasn’t counted -- I wondered why.

In fact, the New York City Coroner called VAERS to report my daughter’s Hepatitis B vaccine related infant death and no one ever returned their call! What kind of reporting system doesn’t return the calls of the NY City Medical Examiner -- and how many other reports were ignored? This is supposed to be the emergency 911 number for disasters such as bad lots of vaccine that could poison thousands of other babies. With the personal knowledge that the VAERS data was completely flawed, I sat in that room and listened in amazement as CDC officials and Merck’s head of vaccine safety made disparaging comments about any possible risk from Hepatitis B vaccination, despite the evidence just presented by impartial scientists.

I studied statistics and econometrics at UC Berkeley and have developed innovative methods of applying probability to financial and economic data in my consulting business with some of the largest financial institutions in the world. That training and experience qualifies me to criticize the statistical legitimacy of the VAERS study, on which Merck and the CDC pseudo-scientists based their pro-vaccination stance. Their comments were scathingly dismissive of any possible risk from the vaccine.

But that VAERS study is not a legitimate sample of a data set from which any conclusions about the larger population can be made. VAERS doesn’t return coroner’s calls, leading to the suspicion that deaths and adverse effects from vaccination are woefully under-reported. To conclude that the Hepatitis B vaccine is safe because VAERS only reports 19 deaths is scientific fraud.

In fact, I obtained the raw data from the VAERS system and found 54 reported SIDS cases after Hepatitis B vaccination in just the 18 months from January 1996 -- May 1997. That’s almost 15 times as many deaths per year as their own flawed study reported. There are 17,000 reports of adverse reactions to Hepatitis B vaccine in the 1996-97 raw data. Clearly something is fishy about VAERS.

VAERS was set up by the FDA and CDC. If there are 17,000 reports and VAERS doesn’t even return the NY Medical Examiner’s call, how many other deaths and injuries go unreported?

I came away from that NAS workshop with the distinct impression that Merck and the CDC didn’t know and didn’t really want to know how many babies are being killed or injured by Hepatitis B vaccination. This is a bureaucratic vaccination program that is on auto-pilot flying into a mountain.

The CDC bureaucrats have a vested interest in the status quo. If there were 17,000 reports of a dangerous disease in an 18-month period, the CDC would be all over the case. But when there are 17,000 reports of adverse reactions to a vaccine the CDC advocates for "public health" -- the CDC dismisses it as a coincidence. Merck makes $50 a shot from the three-shot series and has sales of upwards of $800 million a year from vaccines.

[trotsky]

18. Ah, as I suspected.

It uses raw VAERS data. As you evidently are not aware, the VAERS database is unconfirmed. Anyone at any time can report an adverse reaction, and it will be listed in VAERS. No one has followed up to determine A) that the reaction really happened, and B) was due to the vaccine. There is a true story you probably haven't heard of - a reporter once submitted a claim to VAERS that the flu shot turned him into the Incredible Hulk. His claim appeared in the VAERS database, and they were only allowed to remove it with his permission.

That right there shows how valid it is to draw any conclusions at all from VAERS. It exists purely as an early warning system for officials and investigators to look into claims.

So your statement is unsupported. Thank you for clearing that up. Very common tactic among the anti-vaccination movement to use raw VAERS data.

[truedelphi]

19. No my statement is not unsupported. It is a Wed and I am at work and I do not

At this moment have access to much other than that one statement. Just as you wouldn'thave a lot of data at your fingertips if you had a job.

[trotsky]

20. Nope, it's totally unsupported.

You didn't read what I said.

Nice juvenile dig, though! Too bad I actually am employed. Bummer for you.

[truedelphi]

22. I read that you do not like the VAERS system.

Should anyone like this system?

But let's think about it.

The government is our big paternal watchdog in the sky. It has an FDA and an EPA so that our food drugs and environment can be presumed to be safe. The revolving door between industry and these agencies is rather obvious, especially to those citizens wh9o have seen taht someone at a "watchdog" agency is often given a hugely salaried job just moments after they retire from that agency.

So right away the consumer who has educated themselves about these realities KNOWS that the government is by far too friendly to big industry than to the mission of holding industry accountable to consumer safety standards.

In terms of vaccinations, the government has put together VAERS so that should adverse symptoms occur in a vaccinated patient, the doctor or other health professionals may establish the affliction their patient has incured, or the family can establish the inmjury that their family member has incurred by entering that affliction into the government maintained database. One reason for the establishment of a reporting system outside the realm of establishing proof of the patient's injury is that should this injury be occurring because of a tainted vaccine lot, then perhaps the mechanism would be in place to recall that batch of vaccines.

Now you metnion how objectionable the system is. You mention its flaws. You mention very good points about the system. Note that Belkin found VAERS objectionable too.

But the fact that the government's own system of a database is so badly in need of reform suggests that the government own oversight on the vaccine issue is sloppy at best. And deadly at worst.

Belkin did not establish the manner in which VAERS is run. But given that it is a government run program, designed to be a database of important information, its very flaws show how indifferent the government is to the safety of vaccines.

And then people try and say: "Well this all knowing, all wise and all wonderful government has established safety records of the vaccines. No one in their right mind would oppose any vaccines!" But given the cursory care with which our government has handled this matter, it is only just and right that people are beginning to wake up from their belief that the government offers much oversight in this matter.

[trotsky]

23. You're completely missing the point.

"Liking" the VAERS system has nothing to do with it - you are mischaracterizing this badly.

You have to understand the nature of the data it contains. It's a valuable resource, but only within a certain context. You simply CANNOT make sweeping claims (17,000 adverse reactions were reported!) using the raw, unverified data. Do you understand why?

And then people try and say: "Well this all knowing, all wise and all wonderful government has established safety records of the vaccines. No one in their right mind would oppose any vaccines!"

Who are these people? Have you ever met one? Because no one I've ever met in real life or on any discussion board has ever taken that position. You have created a wonderful strawman to attack and vilify.

(Also, an apology for your childish insult would be appreciated.)

[truedelphi]

24. My email buddy E D

Quit advocating for vaccine safety because she got tired of trying to spread the truth. The final straw was when someone she knew let their kid get vaccinated while ill, and the kid died.

The family was all over her, like why didn't anyone ever tell us there were risks to vaccines?
(E D had told them) We thought the government had oversight of this. We thought that we could let the child have 31 vaccines a year like mandated and everything would be hunky dory.

So that strawman (as you call it) is real.

As far as apology for childish insult, should I be sorry? I post a comment and then am taken to task for not offering totally expert, totally vetted PROOF. And it has to be immediate or I am a careless stupid poster.

Proof is hard to come by. One of my "expert" acquaintances (Marc Lappe) used to say that it took the cigarette industry opponents until 1999 to establish full scientific proof that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer. That "proof" came about because of DNA sequencing etc.

Lucky for us Americans, the government during the sixties was not as bought out as it is now - so the Surgeon general offered warnings on each package of cigs that were sold -even though the cigarette lung cancer had been totally perfectly proven yet.

As far as VAERS, my final comment is this one: the government ought to be doing a good enough job with this data base so that it can be used as a base for researchers.

[trotsky]

25. Well at least I know you aren't interested in learning.

Or even admitting you engaged in a juvenile insult when asked for simple evidence to back up a statement. But that's OK - I can now refer back to your post as much as I need to, to show where the disrespect started. Thanks!

As far as VAERS, my final comment is this one: the government ought to be doing a good enough job with this data base so that it can be used as a base for researchers.

Which simply again reflects your complete inability to understand what the purpose of VAERS is. You've learned nothing, sadly.

[thebusyant]

50. VAERS search engine

Hi, I just saw this message. I've built a website that allows free searches of the VAERS database (obviously, as the discussion has noted above, there are caveats associated with any voluntary reporting system like VAERS, but it may prove useful to users here).

Also, there are other VAERS search engines (notably that found @ HHS/CDC/FDA and NVIC, and each (including mine) has its own pros and cons.

e.g., here's a search of VAERS reports for gardasil

http://www.fdable.com/vaers/query/ad2d42ae07cd

-tba

[cosmik debris]

21. What a Drama Queen!

He whines repeatedly that VAERS numbers are not reliable, yet he uses them to support his conclusion. Bad data leads to bad conclusions. :crazy:

He makes an enormous deal about not getting a return phone call from VAERS, but

Who can report to VAERS?

Anyone can report to VAERS. The majority of VAERS reports are sent in by vaccine manufacturers (42%) and health care providers (30%). The remaining reports are obtained from state immunization programs (12%), vaccine recipients (or their parent/guardians, 7%) and other sources (9%). Vaccine recipients or their parents or guardians are encouraged to seek the help of their health care professional in filling out the VAERS form. http://vaers.hhs.gov/vaers.htm

You see, filling out forms is not something you do over the phone. You get that don't you?

And just to add to the melodrama he says: "This is supposed to be the emergency 911 number for disasters such as bad lots of vaccine that could poison thousands of other babies."

Now that's great drama, but it is false.

What is VAERS?

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national vaccine safety surveillance program co-sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). VAERS collects and analyzes information from reports of adverse events following immunization. Since 1990, VAERS has received over 123,000 reports, most of which describe mild side effects such as fever. Very rarely, people experience serious adverse events following immunization. By monitoring such events, VAERS helps to identify any important new safety concerns and thereby assists in ensuring that the benefits of vaccines continue to be far greater than the risks. http://vaers.hhs.gov/vaers.htm

Nothing in there says anything about emergencies.

That is certainly an amusing rant, but it has no basis in fact and no business in our health care policy.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. SIDS after the Hep B vaccine?????

So the listed cause of death for these children was SIDS caused by vaccine? How close to the administration of the vaccine did the SIDS deaths occur? SIDS is usually only listed as a cause of death when there is no identifiable cause, adverse reaction to vaccine would be an actual cause and would not be listed as SIDS. Me thinks Mr. Belkin has an axe to grind.

David

[truedelphi]

27. Talk to real parents whose kids have had the vaccine and died then you'll

Come to find out that often those deaths are listed as SIDS.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Do you realize how illogical that is?

Correlation does not equal causation. Relying on parents who have suffered a tremendous loss and are searching for someone to blame is not a very good research tool.

David

[truedelphi]

31. Okay, you take your healthy happy talking two year old in for a

Vaccine. While in the waiting room, the child is scampering around, happy as the day is long. Interacting with people in the waiting room.

Then the nurse administers the shot. The child screams in pain from the injection. The site reddens in a fierce angry and awful welt.

They begin running a fever, they are clammy to the touch. They shriek, and they shriek, and the doctor's office says "It is normal."

The family bundles up the two year old, and takes the child home. After an hour or two of fretful crying, the child appears to drift off to a normal sleep. Two hours later, they check on the child and realize that the child is turning blue. They call for paramedics. The paramedics come and it is too late.

Now how you as a parent would not deduce that the vaccination was related to your child's death I don't know.

I myself have lived this nightmare. Not with my child thank goodness, but with me. I followed Jimmy Carter's request that Americans get themselves vacinated for the swine flu. The shot burned and blistered my left arm. The pain did not go away for several months. I had contracted Guillaume Barre disease, which eventually subsided on its own.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. So show me the statistics of children dying of SIDS within 24 hours of a vaccine.

[uppityperson]

44. You getting guillaume barre disease after swine flu shot does not mean

a 2 yr old will get SIDS after a Hep B vaccine.

I am glad you are better. I have an acquaintance/fellow health care worker who got it a few yrs back from that bad batch of influenza vaccine. I also had a 21 yr old cousin who died from influenza a few yrs ago when didn't get the vaccine.

[truedelphi]

29. I should point out that not only will the doctors avoid admitting the

Death of a vaccinated child (within twenty four hours of the injection)
is related to that injection,there have been several cases wherein the parents are charged with child abuse and or manslaughter.

When you infant dies from a vaccine,t he brain swells, and the County coroner will rule that the parent injured the child. The death will then be ruled "shaken baby" syndrome.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. What mechanism causes the brain to swell?

[truedelphi]

33. I am not a neurologist, so cannot explain that

From Michael Belkin's notes:
The coroner spoke to my wife and I and our pediatrician (Dr. Zullo) the day of the autopsy and clearly stated that her brain was swollen. The pediatrician Dr. Zullo’s notes of that conversation are “brain swollen ... not sure cause yet ... could not see how recombinant vaccine could cause problem.”

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. So the pediatrician and the neurologist said that the vaccine was not the cause of the swelling.

Yet somehow the vaccine is still responsible for the death. Cerebral Edema (brain swelling) is fairly common in hypoxic brain injury cases. Accidental suffocation would fit every aspect of this case and would likely be listed as SIDS on a death certificate.

David

[truedelphi]

35. As far as mechanisms of health and illness

I think most people on DU would agee that the immune system is an important element in
terms of a human being's health.

In 1982, I acquired a syndrom that manifested as patchy uneven areas of pigmentation across my entire body. Concerned about what this was,and what it would do, I entered Stanford Hospital.

Three of the best of the dermatology dept descended upon me. "You have vitaligo" they announced. "Vitaligo is an immune diorder" said one doctor.

"Have you ever been around industrial cleaning products?" queried another.

I had been one of the first women construcion workers in the state of Colorado, and in addition to paint thinners, varnishes, epoxies etc, I had used industrial cleaners.

But my concern was about having an immune disorder.

"Please tell me about the immune disorder that I have? What part is my immune system playing in this disease?" I asked. The dotors all offered a brief expalnation - vitaligo is an immune disorder and it meant that the immune system had decided for whatever reason that it needed to kill of my skin pigment.

"Can't you folks tell me something more about the immune system? I have an immune disorder - I'd like to know more." The woman doctor looked at me sympathetically and then announced, "We don't know much about the immune system. There is almost NO reserach monies available for the immune system and its disorders. We just don't know a lot."

Remember this is the calendar year 1982. It is a full year before another doctor will mention to me in a whisper that there is a mysterious type of pneumonia felling large numbers of men in the Castro, the gay area of San Francisco. Within several years of that mystery disease, which first began as mass pneumonias and other strange disease phenomena, large chucks of the government's monies would flood the coffers of any researchers interested in taking apart the immune system and deciphering its manner and methods of operation.

So basically in 1982, we were in the Dark Ages of the field of research in terms of the human immune system. Meanwhile, our chemists were pouring out thousands of products a year. Even ten years ago, fewer than five hundred chemicals had been seriously studied in terms of what they do to our bodies. Read or watch the book or movie "The Civil Act" and you will see how unenlightened science was. Many scientists and researchers dismissed the clusters of leukemia that decended upon a town in Massachusetts were as just so much random occurrence. It took a lot of hard work for the lawyers involved in "The Civil Act" to bring forth and establish the connection between the leukemia and the chemicals that had been present in the drinking water wells of the families who suffered the leukemia deaths. So less than three decades ago, we did not know much.

And we still don't know much. As an anti-pesiticde activist, I cannot tell you how many times people have responded to the concept of pesticides being harmful with the glib "I use pesticides, and they don't bother anyone in this family. Now if you would just excuse me, I need to go and get the kids' asthma inhaler prescriptions filled." Sad to say, many adults are more careful about chemicals when you explain to them that their pets will be harmed by the chemicals they use. Their kids are just supposed to suck it up and be strong.

[Heddi]

36. uh...

what does that rambling bunch of strung together words have to do with 1) vaccines 2) Hepatitis B 3) Anything that we've been discussing above? Or do you get paid by the word?

[truedelphi]

37. Okay, that rambling bunch of word was to present ,

The basic concept that the immune system was not seriously studied until after 1982.

But by 1982, we as a society had already decided that it was A-okay to be flooding our environment with chemicals which were un researched in terms of what they do to the health of human beings.

Thus, among many other actions we allowed To have occur, we allowed vaccines to include thimerosal as a preservative (That has been recently taken out of our vaccines, but aluminum replaces it.)

As a society,we do not have much use for the precautionary principle. However some environmentalists have decided that it would be a good approach to take.

The 1998 Wingspread Statement on the Precautionary Principle summarizes the principle this way: "When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically." (The Wingspread Conference on the Precautionary Principle was convened by the Science and Environmental Health Network).

[Heddi]

38. "the immune system was not seriously studied until after 1982"

Um, okay. I would hope that you have some non-gobbledegook proof to back this up, but I won't hold my breath.

And still, you go on with the word salad that means nothing and has no context to anything that we've been speaking about. Please let me know when you can make a rational point (doubleplusgood if you have proof of any of the things you're postulating)

I'll go make dinner now, then take a nap. Wake me when you've submitted proof 1) that more children die from HBV vaccine than from HBV 2) that deaths attributed to HBV are listed as SIDS instead of vaccine reaction 3) The immune system wasn't seriously studied until after 1982.

Antectodal information from uninformed parents do not count. I'm looking for verified, peer reviewed studies here, or at least information published in or by mainstream publications, health groups, etc. Wackos on the internet with a private webpage do not count.

Now, off to make tacos!

[truedelphi]

39. Fine with me - I will wake you after I talk to colleagues of

Larry N Needham or Needham himself.

Needham, you might remember, has published peer review studies of Exposure to Stresors and their effects on humans.

Have a good nap!!

[Heddi]

40. zzzzzzz

still hemming and hawing about those pesky requests for proof.

And I see that you used the oft used "Appeal to Authority", as if Larry N Needhammm's publishing peer reviewed studies actually means or proves anything. If you remember, Andrew Wakefield published peer reviewed studies that were proven to be false and manipulated. Oopsie!

Also here, you will not only find a report of a double-blind cross over study:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x53778

but vetting of the information shows that the "study" was bought, paid for, and conducted by the company that owns the product that was shown to be most effective. tsk tsk tsk.

Still waiting for that proof of anything that's been asked of you throughout this thread by me and others. Still waiting :sad:

I do notice that you have time to continuously shift the goalposts of the conversation, though. Good work! Keeps me on my toes!

...my tacos are almost done...Oh! Forgot to cook the rice....

[Heddi]

46. Still waiting for that proof

not only did I make and eat tacos for dinner LAST NIGHT but I took a nap AND went to bed for the night, woke up, went to Ikea, ran by work for a few minutes and STILL....no proof to back up any of the hogwash you claim is caused by the HBV vaccine.

hmmmmm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. I'm doubting we'll see a response.

Just another random rant about anecdotal events in another OP, that will also be abandoned when confronted with science.

David

[cosmik debris]

48. You have discovered

the way to end any conversation with that poster.

All you have to do is ask for facts instead of opinions and anecdotes.

And that's the end of the conversation.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. I asked what mechanism caused the cerebral edema, then I told you what likely caused it.

[beam me up scottie]

49. kick

[this_side_up]

51. no shot unless genetic tests have been done for RA and ra

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9733447

OBJECTIVE: Hepatitis B vaccination has been associated with reactive arthritis and rarely rheumatoid arthritis (RA). We defined the clinical, serologic, and immunogenetic background of patients developing RA, soon after recombinant hepatitis B vaccination. METHODS: The clinical, serologic, and HLA antigens of a cluster of firefighters who developed arthritis after prophylactic recombinant hepatitis B vaccination (5 subjects), as well as a second group of sporadic cases of arthritis (6 patients) after hepatitis B vaccination are described.

RESULTS: Ten of 11 patients fulfilled revised American College of Rheumatology criteria for RA. All cases had persistent arthritis for more than 6 months; at 48 months followup 2 cases no longer had inflammatory arthritis. Nine patients required disease modifying antirheumatic drugs. Five subjects were HLA-DR4 positive. HLA class II genes expressing the RA shared motif were identified in 9/11 patients genotyped for HLA-DRbeta1 and DQbeta1 alleles (0401, 0101, or 0404). All the firefighters shared the HLA-DRbeta1 allele 0301 and the DQbeta1 allele 0201, with which it is in linkage disequilibrium. CONCLUSION: These polymorphic residues in the binding site of the MHC class II molecules of the affected patients appear capable of binding some peptide sequences of the recombinant vaccine peptides they received and may be responsible for hepatitis B vaccine triggering development of RA in these cases. Recombinant hepatitis B vaccine may trigger the development of RA in MHC class II genetically susceptible individuals.

[xchrom]

53. this may not be the case

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34399920_ITM

Hep B vaccine--rheumatoid arthritis link denied.(Infectious Diseases)(hepatitis B)

[xchrom]

52. more here

http://www.nfid.org/library/hepb_safety.shtml


About NFID

Continuing Medical Education


Hepatitis B Vaccine Safety

Hepatitis B vaccine is among the safest vaccines available and is highly effective for protection against this killer liver disease.

As with all medical and public health interventions, the potential risks, as rare as they may be, need to be weighed against the benefits to the individual and to the society. The following information about possible side effects, in question and answer format, has been developed by leading public health physicians in the National Immunization Program at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta Georgia: