Hey, Where's my forskin?

[seemslikeadream]

The Case Against Circumcision (continued)
by PAUL M. FLEISS, M.D.



Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.4

In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.5 The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious.

The radical practice of routinely circumcising babies did not begin until the Cold War era. This institutionalization of what amounted to compulsory circumcision was part of the same movement that pathologized and medicalized birth and actively discouraged breastfeeding. Private-sector, corporate-run hospitals institutionalized routine circumcision without ever consulting the American people. There was no public debate or referendum. It was only in the 1970s that a series of lawsuits forced hospitals to obtain parental consent to perform this contraindicated but highly profitable surgery. Circumcisers responded by inventing new "medical" reasons for circumcision in an attempt to scare parents into consenting.

Today the reasons given for circumcision have been updated to play on contemporary fears and anxieties; but one day they, too, will be considered irrational. Now that such current excuses as the claim that this procedure prevents cancer and sexually transmitted diseases have been thoroughly discredited, circumcisers will undoubtedly invent new ones. But if circumcisers were really motivated by purely medical considerations, the procedure would have died out long ago, along with leeching, skull-drilling, and castration. The fact that it has not suggests that the compulsion to circumcise came first, the "reasons," later.

more
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=63&contentid=1875
original link to article here
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

[liberalitch]

1. as a matter of feminine preference....

I'll go with circumcised

[burythehatchet]

7. Once you go flap....

you may never go back.

[mordarlar]

17. I agree i prefer no cut.

edited to add i am a female : D

[burythehatchet]

19. Thank you so much for the edit.

[mordarlar]

24. just thought i would clarify that i prefer it on others and NOT

myself lol

[Scout]

68. I went back.... eom

[Goldmund]

25. I get turned on by amputees

[BurlingtonBrz]

44. There's a condition where people

ELECTIVELY have their limbs removed and are only sexually attracted to amputees. I'm a psychiatrist in Miami and don't personally have any patients with this disorder but my colleagues do. It's called BIID or Body Integrity Identity Disorder. It's not a psychosis, they've usually had these feelings since their pre-adolescent years. There was a documentary on Sundance about 6 months ago called "Whole"
Anybody else see it or hear of BIID? It's truly fascinating.

[Goldmund]

45. Never heard of it

What do you guys (in the psych field) speculate is the underlying cause of such a disorder?

Is a preference for circumsized penises included in the list of symptoms? ;)

[seemslikeadream]

46. Did you see the documentary about self-castration?

:crazy:

[Edys92]

49. OMG, I've heard of it!!!

I'm a Psych Nurse and have had a couple patients with BIID. It's very odd, isn't it? One man chopped off his own leg and another man shot himself in the leg intentionally to have it amputated. There was an episode of CSI NY that dealt with this. Anyone else see it?

[MJJWhack]

53. For Real???

Did you se the CSI New York episode that talked about it?

[Goldmund]

56. No, not for real

I just think it's fundamentally equivalent to having a preference for circumsized penises -- in principle, if not to the degree.

[Harsh630]

29. me TOO!!!

[ldf]

42. your "preference"

is not relevant.

[BigBearJohn]

57. I had it done at 14 years because I wanted to be like other boys

Man! Am I ever sorry I had it done.

I can tell you from experience, the penis was MUCH more
sensitive to touch when I had a foreskin. Now that it's
dried out, it has nowhere near the sensitivity it once
had and is LESS sexually stimulating.

I wish the hell I NEVER had it done. I'm not kidding.

[maxudargo]

2. All I know, dude

Is that I am circumcized and that skin-flap thing uncircumcized guys have is creepy-looking. My penis is prettier without it.

[Goldmund]

27. I know

and you know those women with full-grown feet? yuk. All I know, dude, is that women with bound feet are prettier for it.

[Kire]

3. Circumcision started in the Victorian era?

Don't they talk about it quite a bit in the Bible?

[liberalitch]

13. That's when it started for the gentiles.....

It was a part of the covenant/chosen people thing between God and the Jews since Abraham (not Lincoln)

[DieboldMustDie]

22. The Bible requires circumcision for Jewish males;

St. Paul argued against requiring it of gentile converts to Christianity.

[Dr.Phool]

4. If you're circumcised

And still masturbate, can you sue for malpractice?:evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

6. How about a class-action suit?

:)

[slutticus]

33. Man....I'd be rich!

:D

[Alpharetta]

5. My sons asked me why they still have theirs

I said no way I would do that to a baby who had no say in the matter.

I said you know on the animal shows where the narrator says "the gazelle doesn't feel a thing as the lion rends the flesh from his bones, because the gazelle is in shock" ? Well I don't believe it.

I said any time you want to go ahead and get it done, I'll pay for it. They haven't yet. :)

[Squatch]

8. How do you feel about abortion?

"I said no way I would do that to a baby who had no say in the matter."

---
Puts on flame resistant suit and climbs into bomb shelter.

:nuke:

[tubbacheez]

16. heh... very provocative.

however, the assumption that the same reasoning would be used in the abortion debate is not a give.

therefore, you have set up a type of strawman.



great attention-getter, though.

[Squatch]

21. Thanks. Anything to stir the pot.

:evilgrin:

[Alpharetta]

18. I'm not a proponent of outlawing male circumcision. n/t

[UdoKier]

20. No flames, your analogy is just nonsense.

circumcision is AFTER birth. Abortion after birth is called murder.


And despite being pro-choice, as a person who was adopted because my "fundie" birth mother did not want to have an abortion, I can certainly understand and respect the side of the pro-lifers (even though I disagree with some of their conclusions).

Circumcision is not the worst thing you can do to a child. It is, however, unnecessary and not beneficial. 90% of the people who persist in doing it do so out of conformity and ignorance. Why would you want to deprive a son of the choice to have his own body intact or not. It's HIS body, NOT yours.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. Actually, wouldn't the fetus be sedated?

If the owner of the uterus is sedated, then wouldn't the contents of said uterus also be sedated?

[spunky]

10. My boyfriend's best friend was circumcised voluntarily

in high school. He wished his parents had done it as a infant. . .

I don't have the equipment, so I wouldn't know, but my bf says he is very glad he was done as an infant and can't imagine a man not wanting to be. . .

[tubbacheez]

12. same situation as you...

if my son wants it done, he could have the benefit of modern anesthesia even.

plus, i think it should be a conscious and well-considered choice, esp. if doing it for religious reasons. (i feel the same way about baptisms, btw.)

[UncleSepp]

9. IMHO circumcision is gross

I also don't like to see babies with pierced ears. If an adult wants to modify his or her body, have at - but to me, it seems that forcing a body modification, especially such an extreme one, on an infant is just wrong.

[progmom]

11. We decided not to circumcise our son.

It seemed entirely unnecessary, and most cultures have stopped performing non-religious based ritual circumcision.

[UdoKier]

14. Amazing how many people are attached to this cruel practice.

"It looks wierd with a foreskin." "Yuk."

The power of conformity and tribalism are remarkable. You would never hear such comments about natural penises from Europeans, who would assume anyone who is cut is Jewish. Heck, even earlier in the last century, that would have been the assumption in most socio-ethnic groups here in the States too.

I'm very glad I didn't chop off any healthy parts of my boys' bodies. I have as much right to do that to them as I have binding their feet or putting those big plug earring things on them.

If your religion doesn't compel you to do this to you sons, please DON'T.

[texastoast]

23. Exactly

It all has to do what what people think of as "normal."

Actually, circumcision did make a little sense when it was ritual practice in cultures who didn't bathe regularly. Without daily bathing (thank you thank you thank you, Native Americans for teaching the Europeans about this--one of the greatest of gifts), a non-circumcised penis or a non-washed vulva can get pretty darned funky and painful.

[Malikshah]

28. My partner's bros

had to have it done-- kept getting infections/not cleaning etc.

Sort of like, pick up this room, or I'm going to throw out your stuff--at least that's the gist I got from why the parent finally had it done.

[mordarlar]

26. That kind of talk is EXTREMELY hurtful too.

Lot of ego associated with that. ; ) I dated a man for 3 yrs and he was sitting in a bar one time and the women were on subject. Very, very harsh. They obviously did not know what the status of his foreskin was because the convo ended pretty quick when he said i did not say you should cut off your nipples.

[Madrone]

54. Amazing is right.

Imagine the outrage if someone here said women with natural breasts are disgusting, and only breasts that have been implanted to reach watermelon size are attractive.

Natural breasts? Ewwwwwwwwwwww. Those are GROSS!!!!


I'm firmly in the uncirc'ed camp - and have been for many years. Any son I may have will be left as nature intended. Thankfully, I'm very vocal regarding my disdain for circumcision, so any man that may help me create a son will already be WELL aware it is NOT an option. No debate.

[newportdadde]

15. My wife and I had our son circed.

We were on the fence for awhile but my wife has a teacher had already run into 2 students in her school in just a year that had to have it done for medical reasons at around 6 years of age.

Speaking personally I can't imagine being more sensitive, although I have heard a lot depends on the procedure and that some circs do take away more sensitivity.

Also I expect this thread to turn into a flame war.

[gollygee]

37. As I understand it

doctors sometimes recommend circing before considering other treatments. A friend with two un-circ'd sons said to me after a doctor recommended her son be circ'd because of a urinary tract infection . . "Geeze, when I had a UTI, my doctor just gave me antibiotics."

But yeah, I imagine it'll turn into a flame war.

[slutticus]

31. As much as I like the Turtle-neck look for sweaters,

I'm afraid I would not like it on my penis.

I like my smooth appearance.


"disables the penis" :eyes:

Does this mean I can apply for disability?

[Modem Butterfly]

32. It looks like the li'l guy has on a turtleneck

I think it's cute!

FWIW, my partner, who is male, is circumcised. I've had both original and lite, and I could care less.

[gollygee]

36. I've been involved with both as well

and I also don't think it makes much difference from our side of it.

If I had a son, I would *never* have him circ'd. I would never have him undergo *any* unnecessary surgery, and particularly at such a young age.

[Modem Butterfly]

40. We're in agreement there

What's the point of having a circumcision, unless you have a religious requirment. It just seems like unecessary, and quite risky, surgery on a newborn. So what's the point?

[Beware the Beast Man]

34. Hmm. I've functioned quite well without it.

Still, unless there is a clear medical reason, I may not have it done for my child.

[LizW]

35. Our pediatrician said there is no medical reason to do it

Assuming proper daily cleaning, it is a matter of personal preference. Since we couldn't very well ask our infant sons what they wanted and it can't be undone, we left them with original equipment. When they're mature enough to decide, we'll see.

I worried a little that when they started school and sports that they would see other boys and feel self conscious that they were different, but neither has ever mentioned it.

[Stuckinthebush]

38. Prevents masturbation

Really?

A lot of American boys would disprove that lie.

:D

Having 3 girls, we never had to make that decision, but I am certain it is difficult. You don't want to do anything to your kids that will set them apart from others, yet the whole practice is quite unnecessary.

[UdoKier]

41. It does make it less convenient, though.

The foreskin provides a natural sleeve for working it, Being cut necessitates lube of some sort, or much chafing ensues.

[tubbacheez]

43. it prevents masturbation for about 6 weeks. no effect after that. n/t

[Goldmund]

48. Not true, man

I'm uncircumsized and I can rub one out even with my pants on -- can you do that?. I never need lube or anything like that.

[tubbacheez]

51. I'm not sure you understood my post above.

The healing time is approximately 6 weeks, though individual results vary quite a bit. Even if the soreness and discomfort subside rapidly, the skin takes a bit longer to regain strength and flexibility enough to withstand sexual activity. During this time, sexual activity is unlikely.


Your post is entirely compatible with mine. There's no conflict of ideas at all.

[movie_girl99]

39. my current husband

as well as my ex husband are both uncircumcised. When my son was born 13 years ago i really didn't want to have him circumcised either but his father wanted it done because of the flack he had received in the locker room in high school. So much that i thought it was best we have it done. I cried for days after wishing I'd held out and not had it done. As far as the hygienic aspect, my ex wasn't as clean as he could've been but has had no problems thus far. My current husband who is very freaky about his hygiene and cleaner than anyone I've known also has had no problems being uncircumcised.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

47. The Brick Testament......a mountian of lego forskins....ya gotta see this

http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/second_circumcision/jos05_02.html
The Second Circumsicion


a mountian of yellow forskins

[seemslikeadream]

52. Thanks ElsewheresDaughter

:hi:

[KansDem]

50. Reminds me of a joke...

A woman went out one day to shop for a birthday present for her husband. She came across a men's store that displayed an unusual looking wallet in the window. She thought this might make a proper gift for her husband and went in to ask a store clerk about it.

"How much is that wallet in your window," she asked the clerk.

"$200." came the reply

"$200??? Why so much?" she asked.

"It's made out of human foreskins," said the clerk

"Well, I can see it's made of an unusual material, but it's not as if human foreskins are a rare commodity. Is there anything else that makes it cost so much?"

"When you rub it, it turns into a suitcase."

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

58. It is rare to require circumcision as an adult

The Swedes know how to care for the intact penis (many doctors here in the US are shockingly ignorant it's care) and the adult circumcision rate there is less than 1%.


"Looks better" is an opinion and a damned stupid reason to subject as infant to surgery. After all, the child and his future partner(s) may disagree.

Removal of healthful erogenous tissue from an unconsenting child is unethical.

[HamdenRice]

59. Abolutely best reason to be circ'd

I was having a conversation with a very beautiful Brazilian woman a few weeks ago, who immigrated to the US about 15 years ago. Somehow, the conversation turned to circumcision. She said that in Brazil, almost no men are circ'd and in the US most are. She said that after having her first boyfriend in the US she would never, never date an uncirc'd guy or a Brazilian guy in general, because the smell and hygiene of uncirc'd guys was gross. Especially she would never, ever give a blo*j*b to an uncirc'd guy, and hated to do so in Brazil, but now she is an enthusiast.

[BigBearJohn]

60. Anyone ever hear of personal hygiene?

Men aren't the only ones who smell down there when hygiene is not
handled regularly.

[Touchdown]

61. Personal testimony from men who were cut as adults...

http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/sight.htm

"The greatest disadvantage of circumcision, in my view, is the awful loss of sensitivity and function when the foreskin is removed ... I was deprived of my foreskin when I was 26; I had ample experience in the sexual area, and I was quite happy (delirious, in fact) with what pleasure I could experience--beginning with foreplay and continuing--as an intact male. After my circumcision, that pleasure was utterly gone. Let me put it this way: On a scale of 10, the uncircumcised penis experiences pleasure that is at least 11 or 12; the circumcised penis is lucky to get to 3 ... If American men who were circumcised at birth could know the deprivation of pleasure they would experience, they would storm the hospitals and not permit their sons to undergo this unnecessary loss. But how can they know? You have to be circumcised as an adult, as I was, to realize what a terrible loss of pleasure results from this cruel operation." (From a letter to Marilyn Milos, RN, Founder/Director of NOCIRC)

"There are no words to describe how powerful, how compelling a penis with a foreskin is and how one's life revolves around it ... Circumcision did not eliminate masturbation, but it took away its intense pleasure, its extreme sweetness ... it was wet like the inside of my mouth for 25 years ... I wanted everyone who had not been through it to experience it ... Circumcision is ... getting it back broken, bleeding, in great pain, with its most delicate, sensitive parts ... cut off, permanently weakened ... the glans eventually dried out (a process that took over a year) ... Before circumcision my erections would be extremely strong ... Now the erection is weaker and the penis does not get so terribly stiff." (From a letter to Rosemary Romberg, author of Circumcision: The Painful Dilemma, from a man in Florida, circumcised at 25)

"ne of the biggest mistakes of my life. I feel damaged on every level. Sexual pleasure has been reduced by at least 70% both in intensity and range of sensations ... The testimony of men who have experienced life with a foreskin and then lost it is perhaps the most damning of all arguments against circumcision ... For an adult male to be misled into circumcision is regrettable, but to inflict irreparable damage on a non-consenting infant who will carry the physical and psychological scars all his life is tragic -- and a crime." (William E. Krueger <2024 Craig St., Winston-Salem, NC 27103>, circumcised at 30. Welcomes correspondence.)

I was done as a baby. It's sad that I'll never know how much I've lost.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. Hasidic circumcision rite debated The suctioning of blood by mouth during

http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/020605/a0106circumcision.html

By GARY STERN
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: February 6, 2005)


The suctioning of blood by mouth during ritual circumcisions has long been dropped as a common practice by most of the Jewish world, but many Jews and non-Jews alike were shocked to learn in recent days that the practice remains standard in many Hasidic communities.

The largely unknown practice, which has been used during the Jewish circumcision ritual for thousands of years, came to public attention last week when New York City health officials said that a Hasidic rabbi and mohel from Monsey was suspected of transmitting the herpes virus to three New York City infants he had circumcised. One of the infants died in October.

Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, a prominent Hasidic mohel, suctions blood orally during the circumcision ritual, known as a bris, in order to remove impurities. He is suspected of passing the oral herpes virus, which generally produces cold sores but can be passed to another person's genital area.

Rockland County health officials said they would do their own investigation.

"It is very, very rare for the mohel to suck out the blood himself," said Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, which represents Orthodox congregations in North America.

"The mohalim I speak to in our community say they use latex gloves and a glass tube for suction, and they take every precaution so they do not come into contact with the baby's blood and the baby does not come into contact with their blood," Weinreb said. "This is for the protection of the baby and, frankly, for the protection of the mohel, because one never knows what the baby might be carrying from the parent."

This past August, the journal Pediatrics published a study that concluded that the oral suctioning of blood during a ritual Jewish circumcision, a practice called "metzitzah," puts infants at risk of contracting herpes and should be eliminated. The study looked at eight cases of infants who contracted herpes after oral suctioning during a bris.

Twelve researchers, including seven from Israel, also considered the religious and cultural traditions behind the practice. They noted that the Babylonian Talmud, completed in the fifth century, required oral suctioning in order to remove health risks to the infant. But later rabbinical authorities, the study found, modified their approach as they developed new understandings of hygiene and disease transmission.

"The same consideration that led the Talmudic sages once to establish the custom of the metzitzah for the sake of the infant could now be applied to persuade the mohel to use instrumental suction," the study concluded.

One of the researchers involved in the study was Rabbi Moses Tendler of Monsey, a professor of ethical medical practices and Talmudic law at Yeshiva University, often called the flagship of modern Orthodoxy. Tendler last week said the Talmud requires that blood be sucked from the wound during circumcision, but not that it be done by mouth.

Rabbi Gerald Chirnomas from Boonton, N.J., a prominent mohel in the Greater New York region, said the practice of orally suctioning blood was the norm for centuries.

"When a person cuts a finger, what's the first thing they would do?" he said. "Suck out the blood so any possible contamination is sucked out. The rabbi applied the same thinking to this practice."

Health concerns about the practice are known to have come up from time to time, Chirnomas said. During the mid-19th century, for instance, the Polish government forbade the practice when a popular mohel had a tooth abscess and an infant died.

By the time Chirnomas, a Conservative rabbi, was trained as a mohel decades ago by two Orthodox mohalim in Jerusalem, the practice of oral suctioning had been largely replaced by the use of a glass tube to suck away the blood. These days, Chirnomas, who has performed some 14,000 ritual circumcisions, uses a gauze pad to soak up the blood.

"Using the mouth was done for thousands of years," he said. "But it is important that people realize that within the general Jewish community, this practice is not followed. Within the very Orthodox community, the Hasidic community, they do not accept this change. Traditions die hard."

Rabbi Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, an advocacy group for Orthodox Judaism, said that while the practice of suctioning blood by mouth is rare, Hasidic communities that believe it is important are unlikely to give it up.

"In most communities, it is not done this way, but in many it is a religious tradition of many generations," he said. "I understand that what may have happened in this case is exceedingly rare. Pediatricians in communities where this is done as a matter of course have told us that they have never seen a case like this, ever. Jews have been circumcising their sons for quite a while, and this is getting attention because it is so unusual."

Two of the infants who contracted herpes after being circumcised by Fischer, including the one who died, were twins. The double bris was performed on Oct. 16. New York City health officials later discovered that another boy tested positive for herpes after being circumcised by Fischer in 2003, according to court papers.

Fischer is not accused of any crimes, but in a day when there is great concern about sexual molestation of children, many may wonder how an adult can legally put his mouth on a child's genitals. Vincent Bonventre, a law professor at Albany Law School, said that courts often allow exemptions to general laws for religious practices.

"Cases are more difficult when there is a direct conflict between law and religion, like when a religion requires an act that is forbidden by law," Bonventre said. "When the government's interest is not paramount, the courts generally hold that you can't require an individual to violate their religion."

[Jamastiene]

63. I'm against circumcision.

I'm female though, but that could be good if I ever get to find someone to help me have and raise children one day. I already plan to fight to keep some doctor or other person from circumcising any little boy or girl that I give birth to. I think it is unnatural. As far as the claim that it is cleaner, hogwash. Teach the uncircumcised children about cleaning while they are young. If they decide later to get themselves "cut" or if the have any medical problems, then do it. As far as doing it as a routine procedure, no way. Waste of time, energy, and money to take away pleasure for both the male and the female in the long run, for most.

[DrGonzoLives]

64. Conspiracyplanet.com?

Yeah...

[WildClarySage]

65. We had our son circ'd because I didn't know better.

MIL talked about how her brother had to be circ'd at 10yrs because he kept getting infections and it was so much harder on him as a child vs. as an infant. I'd also heard that the partners of uncirc'd men were more likely to get yeast infections and even cervical cancer. I really thought I was doing the right thing, but

I regretted it immediately. After signing the papers explaining the risks and giving permission for it, they took my precious boy away. About a half-an-hour later, I heard a blood curdling infant scream. I asked the nurse in the room with me if that was my baby and she said no. I said oh, thank god! with a huge sigh of relief. She continued... they should have been done with Alex by now. That's probably the next baby they're doing this morning.

I wish I'd left my boy alone. I'd never do it again.

[ProgressiveConn]

66. People who circumcise their children suck.

Why don't you just cut off the child's ears and nose while you're at it?

Freaking crazy people cutting up their kids dicks for their own pleasure... Sigh.

[SarahB]

67. I have three boys.

Two were circed, my youngest wasn't. I choose to circ because my brother had repeated infections due to difficulty with self care because he is disabled and had to be circed at 17 (not pleasant). However, after continual skin irritations of the area with my circed boys (constant neosporin when they were in diapers), I researched it and came to a decision to not circ my youngest one. I have no regrets and he has had no problems. My older two didn't either past diaperhood. In my opinion, the foreskin is there for a reason, so leave it alone and I shouldn't have made major decisions based on the worst case scenario. It was a mistake. Though I'm not in favor of routine circumcision, I made the best decision at the time based on my experiences and knowledge given to me. I certainly wouldn't want to "butcher" my children, nor would I do it for shallow reasons.

As for my preference for men, I don't really have one. Most men had no control as to whether or not they have a foreskin anyway. A penis is just part of the whole person which is what is of primary importance. I certainly wouldn't want someone telling me my parts weren't appealing unless they were somehow sliced and diced. :shrug:

[Nothing Without Hope]

69. I am a female most definitely opposed to circumcision

When I was pregnant, I didn't know the gender of my child until birth (wasn't routinely determined then) and read up on this. It didn't take long to make up my mind -- absolutely everything I read just made my decision stronger. My husband is circ'd and said he'd prefer a boy to be cut like him so he would "fit in in the locker room." I said no way would I allow that to be done to any child of mine. I would not have backed down under any circumstances. In fact, my child was a daughter so the fight didn't have to take place.

Have you ever read or heard a description of what is done to the baby when it is circumcised by a doctor? It is often done without anesthetic, and the baby's limbs are restrained before and after the mutilation so that he is spreadeagled and cannot touch the injured area. He is left there to scream. A doctor (not employed by ME) actually told me "they don't feel anything." Sure, you heartless freak--go chop up some puppies for a warm-up. If my pediatrician had said something that thoughtlessly cruel and ignorant to me, I would have dumped them in a red hot minute.

Everything i read said that with proper hygiene, which is very simple, all the positives, especially in sensitivity, are with an uncirc'd penis. There were studies with results indicating that virus infections are higher that way, but I question whether those slight differences might have reflected some people who did not use the proper hygiene. It wouldn't be surprising if improper hygiene resulted in higher infection rates; that's common sense.

My brother was born prematurely and also required life-saving major surgery immediately - his survival was so surprising that it was written up in a medical journal. Because of all this trauma, he was not circumcised, though he would have been (almost all boy babies were back then) had he been born full term and healthy. He has never had any problem at all with not being circ'd and never wished he was.

As for the "fitting in with the other guys in the locker room," this argument is, incredibly, STILL heard. Absolutely unbelievable that people would maim their babies for life for such a paltry reason. Anyway, I don't know the percentages currently and don't frequent male locker rooms to see for myself, but I'm betting the frequency of uncirc'd penises is high enough now that this stupid "fitting in" argument is false from the first.

Preference for appearance? Well, penises of all kinds have their own personalities, if you know what I mean, and a sort of independent charm separate from their proprietor's. With a relationship that is healthily tender, playful and passionate, I really don't see this as an issue. Besides, when erect, they don't look all that different cut or uncut; the foreskin is basically a protective sheath for "down" times. (Sorry, puns are inevitable with this subject.) If a woman is so strongly repelled by the cut or uncut status of her boyfriend's penis that it interferes with the relationship, I'd say she should either learn to like the whole man or find another relationship that is less superficial. (The exception would be, of course, if the man was uncirc'd and refused to use good hygiene. That would be a major problem not only because of the inherent disagreeableness of the situation but also because refusal to practice basic hygiene even when asked by his partner pretty much rules out a good long-term relationship.)

I don't know if my husband ever realized just how fiercely protective I was about the prospect of someone doing this to my baby. There is no way in heaven or hell that I would EVER have caved on that, and I would have gone to any extreme to protect my precious child from this mutilation. If I had had a son and he chose to be cut after he was an adult, that would be his choice and only his choice. (Though I'm sure I would have given him articles and testimonials to clarify the consequences pro and con before the deed was done.)

I'm told that in addition to claiming that it prevents unfaithfulness, the horrible female "circumcision" still practiced and essentially required for marriageability in some parts of the world (like some African areas) is said to produce a more aesthetically pleasing appearance. Some of the girls bleed to death when their clitoris and much surrounding tissue is hacked away in this operation. I think people tend to defend whatever is the status quo and claim it is the best way, the "old" way that was good enough for their ancestors. Nowhere good enough as an argument, in my opinion.

So in summary, I don't care much either way about the difference in appearance, but I am absolutely opposed to the act of mutilation itself and believe from what I have read, including in this thread, that it has many effects that are a net negative for the man.

[cynatnite]

70. I asked my husband if he remembers being circ'd.

He said no and doesn't miss the extra one single bit.

We debated circumcising our baby when I was pregnant and decided to do it. We felt for us and him it was the right thing to do after researching.

Our son is now six and we haven't regretted it. We might change our minds were he to tell us he wished we hadn't.

I think it's a personal choice for parents if they want their sons circ'd or not. I also think if it is going to be done, it should be within a few days of birth or not at all.

[put out]

71. Without reading the posts below, I predict

There will be at least one post from a female, going something like this: "Well, I don't know, but I just think that the uncircumcised ones are (fill in the blank) funny-looking, icky, ugly, and I just don't like them."

I hope I don't see this simple drivel, especially from the keyboard of a female who will never have to contend personally with the issue, and probably considers herself a progressive person. But I bet I do.