Naturopaths and the anti-vaccine movement: Hijacking the law in service of pseudoscience

[HuckleB]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2881

"Time and time again, we’ve seen it. When pseudoscientists and quacks can’t persuade the scientific and medical community of the validity of their claims, they go to the law to try to gain the legitimacy that their claims can’t garner through proving themselves by the scientific method. True, purveyors of pseudoscience and unscientifically-derived medical practices do crave the respectability of science. That’s why they try so hard to take on the trappings of science. The problem is that they just can’t do it right, try as they might, or when they do it right their methods are shown to be no more effective than a placebo, aside from the occasional seeming “positive” results that would be expected based on random chance alone. However, failing to achieve the respectability that the mantle of science provides, practitioners and advocates of pseudoscience frequently try to codify their woo into the law.

The reason that they would do this is not too hard to discern. Few legislators and politicians are scientists, and even fewer are scientifically inclined. Back when I still lived in New Jersey, I may have been lucky enough to have had a Congressional Representative who really was a rocket scientist (well, a physicist, actually), but now that I live in Michigan I’ve gone from having a scientifically inclined Congressional representative to having one of the dimmest bulbs in Congress representing me. What that means is that it’s far easier to persuade politicians that this woo or that woo deserves to be permitted or even licensed. That’s how we now have many states licensing acupuncturists, naturopaths, and even “homeopathic physicians,” as Arizona does. The pressure for this sort of acceptance of unscientific medical modalities is building, as well, as Kimball Atwood has documented. Another example is the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA), which was passed in 1994 and in essence ties the FDA’s hands when it comes to regulating most supplements. Indeed, the very existence of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) is a testament to the success of this approach, as a powerful Senator (Tom Harkin, D-IA) almost single-handedly foisted this scientific atrocity on the NIH against the desires of scientists. The results have included a $30 million scientific boondoggle of a trial to test chelation therapy and a profoundly unethical trial of Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez’s “protocol” for pancreatic cancer patients that a recent clinical trial has shown to be worse than useless. The most recent example of this trend is the way that CAM supporters have tried to hijack President Obama’s health insurance reform initiative to insert coverage for everything from any licensed “alternative medicine” practitioner to Christian Science prayer healing.

Recently, two new fronts have been opened up in this battle. One is disturbingly close to me, as it involves the Canadian province of Ontario whose north shore on the Detroit River is less than two and a half miles from my office, the other in Oregon, which, although it’s happening nearly 2,000 miles away from where I live and practice, could portend a new and disturbing tactic of the anti-vaccine movement to do what various other purveyors of pseudoscience have done before and try to win in state legislatures where they can’t win in science or the courts. Of course, in a democratic republic, it is the right of everyone, even supporters of quackery, to try to petition his or her legislators, but it is equally the responsibility of those of us supporting science-based medicine to try to educate legislators why allowing them to alter the law to protect their pseudoscience has the potential to result in great harm.

..."


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In my opinion, this is a very thoughtful and necessary piece. This issue is another part of the health care puzzle, IMO. Questioning is one thing. Denying evidence is another thing altogether. And THAT is what I see happening all too often, at DU, across the nation, and across the globe.

Cheers!

:hi:

[paulsby]

1. the anti-vaccine movement is quackish

BUT there must be a balance between the right of an individual to CHOOSE alternative modalities, and the responsibility of the govt. to regulate medicine and medical claims.

let's not forget that much of conventional medicine NOW was "alternative" and poo-poo'd not too long ago. linus pauling and vitamin c was ridiculed for years. or udo erasmus and other "good fats" experts were ridiculed by the AMA and their absurd food pyramid.

i've used chiropractic and massage therapy, both of which are considered alternative by many and they are very effective. the stuff i've learned about nutrition, and many of the supplements i have used would also be considered thusly.

the govt. must be diligent about enforcing labeling laws, but we have DSHEA for a reason, and the recent congressional kerfluffle over ephedrine (which was one of the most ridiculous ANTI-science campaigns spurred on by ignorant MD's and big pharma) is another example where consumer choice was infringed.

[HuckleB]

2. Well, some of Pauling's vitamin C stuff has been ridiculed again, in retrospect.

But that's how science works.

It does not make sense, IMO, to give dangerous therapies a free pass in the name of freedom. Further, if we are aiming to bring down costs of health care, it doesn't make sense to include every "alternative" therapy under the sun in our health care plan.

[paulsby]

3. my point is that it is a balancing act

govt. should have power to regulate labeling etc. but consumers choice needs to be protected too.

canada, for instance, bans many supplements that are legal here and in most of europe.

i prefer choice, and thanks to DSHEA, i generally have it.

fwiw, my health care plan covers chiropractic, massage therapy and acupuncture. i frequently use the first two. free :)

[vadawg]

4. my health plan includes single malts and beer, though my health care plan dosent :(

[HuckleB]

5. So does mine.

But I'm not going to frown because of it!

[HuckleB]

6. The question of costs vs. results of those "options" remains, however, IMO.

Have a great night.

:hi:

[paulsby]

7. agreed

i just generally lean towards labeling and choice. certainly, there are many procedures/substances that should be outright banned.

good night to you too

[Zhade]

16. Fine. Protect them by telling the whole truth about woowoo "treatments".

Like, that they don't actually work.

[paulsby]

18. what exactly is and isn't "the whole truth" is often in dispute

that's true even for some things that are relatively well accepted in the medical community.

the FDA, laws such as DSHEA, etc. place very strict limits on what can and can't be claimed on a label.

flax oil, and other good sources of EFA's, and remember conventional medicine not too long ago didn't even concede that there WERE "good fats" a la EFA's and generally promoted ornish type low fat diets (which are unhealthy fwiw, yet the medical establishment recommended them), for example can be sold, but they can't make medical claims. that's fair.

the medical community didn't like massage therapy for years. claimed it had no therapeutic effect. they were wrong, and now many admit the effect

i just want choice. choice necessarily means people have the freedom to make bad, and even harmful choices.

heck, in this country, you can't even be forced to receive medical treatment if you are obviously injured, if you refuse (unless you are mentally incompetent, or very intoxicated, etc.). i had a guy once with a compound fracture steadfastly refuse any medical help. and by law, we couldn't touch him. he had the freedom to be a moron and die. had to wait until he passed out. then "implied consent" kicked in.

[Orrex]

11. The "right to choose" argument is generally a red herring

Except in cases where "alternative" "medicine" actually causes harm (eg. unnecessary chelation) or prevents a sick person from seeking actual medical care (eg. shark cartilage instead of cancer treatment), then no one really says that the choice should be forbidden.

let's not forget that much of conventional medicine NOW was "alternative" and poo-poo'd not too long ago.

Frankly, it's more important to remember that a lot of "alternative" medicine is accepted by the average consumer when in fact it should be poo-poo'd as the nonsensical pseudoscience that it really is.

It's great that "alternative" "medicine" occasionally hits one onto the green, but 99 times out of 100 they slice it into the water. But for some reason, the 1% always makes the news, while the 99% is overlooked.


Let people choose, of course, as long as they have access to accurate information about the choices they're making. The person must be informed of a drug's risk, for example, but she must equally be told--in unambiguous terms--that a given "alternative" treatment has never been empirically shown to be effective.

[paulsby]

14. not true.

look for example, at ephedrine.

this is a VERY effective OTC supplement/drug. i have used it many times to assist in dieting and workouts. it is banned close to competition but ok to use out of competition in my org.

congress engaged in a ridiculous ephedrine scare not too long ago, iirc with biden being one of the key nimrods (could be wrong, but i seem to remember biden being one of the people grandstanding this). the AER's were ridiculous. for example, in one case they had an overweight (actually obese) athlete trying to get back in shape, working out in a rubber heat retaining suit, in hot weather, dehydrated, and he had a heart attack. BLAME EPHEDRINE. he was taking it after all. they also found traces of cocaine in his system, but it's the evul ephedrine (tm). and of course, the rallying cry was "do it to save the children" which is often the cry used whenever govt. wants to restrict your rights.

to make a long story short, congress succeeded in the ludicrous ban (the ban was only for sale/marketing of ephedrine as a dietary supp. it was still legal to posssess), until the ban was overturned in appeals court because ephedrine is CLEARLY DSHEA compliant.

as i said, canada bans numerous supplements that are legal here, and i prefer, in general, greater choice vs. govt. interference with my decisions.

thanks to DSHEA, govt. is generally stymied. and we benefit.

if some moron takes a whole bottle of ephedrine, can they die? sure. you can die (quite easily) from a bottle of tylenol for pete's sake, or even if you drink too much water.

but i agree that labeling is key.

DSHEA compliant supps fwiw are not considered Drugs, as contrasted with OTC drugs like nyquil or aspirin, and thus are MUCH more limited as to claims they can make on their labels.

[Orrex]

17. Individual examples don't really contradict my point, though

And neither do good-faith errors made either by actual or alternative medicine.

i prefer, in general, greater choice vs. govt. interference with my decisions.

That's just a rephrasing of the same red herring, though. But let me add something that I omitted in my first post:

I mentioned that alternative medicine products should be restricted when they either cause harm or prevent the patient from seeking actual care. To this I should have added "when such alternative products are put forth as actual treatments or remedies."

The supplement industry is guilty of unrealistic representation, for example, because a 45-second commercial will go on and on about the benefits of this or that supplement and how it can improve "joint health" or whatever. And then, on a pale and shifting background, they'll add a super-small-print caveat in white font disclaiming that the product isn't intended to treat or diagnose any condition and hasn't been evaluated by the FDA. Such a presentation is flatly dishonest, akin to a car salesman revealing that the car's a lemon while he's at his desk and you're in the bathroom.

[paulsby]

19. look, 90% of everything is

ineffective or crap. that holds true in art, it certainly holds true in supplements and alternative medicine.

like i said, i agree that "bad" labeling and fraudulent/illegal claims should be pursued vigorously. i ALSO believe that actions like congress did vis a vis ephedrine were wrongheaded (not to mention a ludicrous waste of congress' time).

i LIKE the fact that i have more choice than many other countries (and unfortunately, less than some) and that we have an FDA that is fierce, but also a respect for liberty that is fierce too.

there's this old saying: caveat emptor.

[Orrex]

20. You're letting alternative medicine off far too easily

If its proponents are going to call it "medicine," then the practice has an obligation to be more reliable than one time in ten.

like i said, i agree that "bad" labeling and fraudulent/illegal claims should be pursued vigorously.

That's commendable, but you can't have it both ways. By your own standard of "90% crap," coupled with your rejection of "bad" labeling, then the alt med industry is guilty of misrepresentation, because I'm nearly certain that no marketer of such products includes a warning that what he's selling is 90% likely to be crap.

i ALSO believe that actions like congress did vis a vis ephedrine were wrongheaded (not to mention a ludicrous waste of congress' time).

Probably true, but not really relevant.

i LIKE the fact that... we have an FDA that is fierce,

It's fierce, but it lacks fangs.

[medeak]

8. nearly died from polio vaccine

hospitalized for 3 months in kidney failure. I don't recall much from that period but photos of me look like a refugee from the holocaust. You can't make a blanket edict for everyone as all are different. Just TODAY veterinarian validated not giving my dog vaccines EVER as bone marrow shut down 5 yrs ago when puppy after vaccination and nearly died from anemia.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Yeah, right.

I'm an astronaut.

[Orrex]

10. Why the hell did you have to blow up the moon, you bastard?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Because Gohan turned into a monkey.

Obvious.

[Orrex]

13. Doh!

[truedelphi]

22. This is the important factor that the rabidly pro-vaccine crowd

Refuses to hear. I can not legally be given a flu shot - it says right on the inserts that if "you have ever had a serious bad reaction or side effect, to any flu shot in the past, then you should not have one." That is a statement right off the paperwork.

Yet people like to think that all of us are the same. Why is there that blanket insistence on this?

[Confusious]

25. I might believe you if

I didn't have 100+ people in my family ( Not including, washington, texas, oklahoma, arkansas, florida and new jersey), and not one, in my 40 years, has been put into a hospital because of a vaccine.

Not getting one, yes. Getting one, no.

On edit: Forgot about friends too. After thinking about it, no, I don't think I would ever believe you.

[Celebration]

42. Have any been sent to jail?

Because, if they haven't, clearly there is no such thing as an inmate.

[Confusious]

45. Boy, that's some logic there

You couldn't be a scientist with that.

I could explain, but from your other posts you're an advocate of faith healers, so you wouldn't listen anyway.

[truedelphi]

83. If some serious researcher took an actual verifiable report on these one

Hundred people, some of them would undoubtedly have been found to have had

1) ADD
2) dyslexia
3) narcolepsy
4) suffered a still birth or miscarriage
5) Multiple chemical sensitivities
6) allergies
7) Parkinson's
8) ALS or Multiple sclerosis
9) epilepsy

And sarcoma, which can be related to having received a vaccine while already ill (Animal studies are so fully convincing of the relationship between cancer and having received a vaccine while a fever is raging that most veterinarians will not vaccinate any animal that is not healthy. However, many doctor's offices are not as careful.)

Of course, it is at this point impossible to prove that any of the above conditions are due to vaccination. The fact that the same mercury, formaldehyde, copper arsenic etc found in vaccines are also found in pesticides and products like Redwood Deck protection sprays means that no one industry has to bear any responsibility for any thing.

But for most people, if they themselves or another family member receives a vaccine and is alive and moving around the following day, then hey, Vaccines = No problem!

[LeftishBrit]

26. Of course some people can't get certain vaccines...

I don't think anyone denies that.

Nor do I even think that everyone has got to get a flu vaccine. I just think that governments should make the vaccine *available* to those who want it.

[trotsky]

27. The anti-vaxers wouldn't have anybody to argue with...

if they didn't have their strawmen. See, the only people who disagree with them are EVIL BIG PHARMA SHILLS who want to JAB EVERYONE ON EARTH WITH 1000 VACCINES no matter what and believe that EVERY VACCINE IS 100% EFFECTIVE and that THERE ARE NO VACCINE SIDE EFFECTS. Not a single item in that sentence is true, but it is believed and cherished by every anti-vaxer I've met. Especially frustrating though is that even the ones who have been told this, continue to use the strawman.

[MineralMan]

29. And that warning is on there because people with those reactions

should not have the shot. Where I am, you're required to read, mark, and sign a statement to that effect BEFORE you are given the vaccine. Science at work.

[truedelphi]

56. Yep that is the real science.

As an anti-pesticide activist, I have tried to convince people that they should not spray certain substances all over the place while they are wearing only cut offs, not even a shirt.

They will go on about how if the stuff is not safe, it wouldn't be sold. Yet if they were to read the label, under BOTH the sections of "directions" and "cautions," they would read that the product should be used only by fully clothed people using gloves.

[Zhade]

15. Rec against woowoo bullshit and its idiotic supporters

NT!

[mzmolly]

21. How many blogs pushing vaccines does "Orac" have?

Quackwatch, "respectful" insolence, science based medicine ...

I consider Dr. Gorski (the pro-pharma surgeon) anything BUT thoughtful, personally.

[Confusious]

24. I Don't know, but here's a blog that doesn't like him

The person spends a lot of time on ad hominem attacks

Really sounds like some people around here. No real arguments, just "He's a wanker" I think that's a quote.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/david-gorski-md.html

[mzmolly]

67. Frankly, it's tit for tat.

Though, I don't care for the methods of either "wanker."

[SemiCharmedQuark]

93. LOL, of course the Age of Autism doesn't like Orac. Orac constantly calls them out on their

anti-science bullshit.

[HuckleB]

32. Several writers publish at the SBM blog.

And I don't understand the objection to Dr. Gorski.

[Confusious]

46. The objection is

That he uses facts and science, not his "gut"

[mzmolly]

64. Not quite.

He's made false claims, under different pseudonyms apparently?

I'm not sure how a surgeon feels he's more qualified than say, pediatricians and toxicologists who question vaccine policy, but ego may play a role?

[mzmolly]

63. I object to his

manner and the fact that he spreads misinformation while asserting he's an informed guru.

[HuckleB]

66. He spreads misinformation?

Not in my experience.

[mzmolly]

69. IMO, he makes false claims, and others repeat them like cult members.

I had no idea he blogged under the pseudonym SoCalGal? Makes me wonder who many sock-puppets/fans he has here? ;)

That said, in his defense, his ORAC disclaimer does say that he blogs for "entertainment" purposes only.

[HuckleB]

78. Well, those are Internet names.

I'm more concerned with content, and the content I've seen from him is extremely honest, science-based, and legitimate.

[mzmolly]

85. I've seen little of anything science based. He espouses a caustic

opinion which he does not back up with "science." For example he had many of his followers believing that he was better qualified to diagnose Hannah Poling than her neurologist, or her father who happens to be a neurologist. He has also trumpeted the false claim that mercury has been removed from vaccines.

Then again, he cautions anyone against taking him seriously and considers himself an "entertaining" egomaniac. I agree on the egomaniac thing. ;)

[HuckleB]

88. I'm sorry, mzmolly, but I don't think you've read him, if you are going to say that.

He has a sense of humor about himself. That's not a bad thing.

In fact, it would be something I'd like to see in those who demonize him and others who care about science.

For example: http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/11/pass-the-maalox-an-aoa-thanksgiving-nightmare.html

It doesn't get much sicker than that, IMO.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

89. That IS disgusting. I don't care for the rancor

on either side.

[HuckleB]

54. BTW, Quackwatch is by Dr. Stephen Barrett.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

65. And Dr. Gorski is on the "team."

:hi:

[HuckleB]

68. So people should only share their work on one blog?

[mzmolly]

70. No, but scientists should not attempt to create the impression

that they're several different people if they're expecting to be taken seriously.

I'll check back in a bit. :hi:

[HuckleB]

79. Maybe.

But that's tiddly winks, IMO.

[mzmolly]

84. I agree, tiddly winks.

That's about all "Orac" is good for.

[HuckleB]

87. So you're equating tiddly winks with science-based medicine?

Really?

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

90. No I'm comparing Orac and his "entertainment" blog(s) - masquerading as

scientific commentary, to tiddly winks. ;)

[HuckleB]

91. Uh huh.

:silly:

[Confusious]

23. Good one

Liked it a lot. Why does a naturopath need evil drugs? My guess is the screw up and kill a few people in the first month.

[Celebration]

28. Pardon me?

Is he calling naturopaths quacks?

This rant is completely unwarranted. There are some states which allow untrained people to call themselves naturopaths. Perhaps that is the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Association_of_Naturopathic_Medical_Colleges

Bastyr participates in all kinds of scientific clinical trials. I think this article is a witch hunt, trying to obfuscate by not noting the difference in licensing requirements of various states. In Washington state, it isn't as if someone can take a four weekend course and become a naturopath. It is a four year degreed program.

He should WANT states to have strong licensing requirements for naturopaths, rather than no licensing at all. The whole argument is completely ridiculous.

My daughter's PCP is a naturopathic physician, and she is thrilled with him.

[MineralMan]

30. Nothing is intrinsically wrong with naturopathy.

However, many quacks operate under that banner. I agree that comprehensive licensing requirements should apply to anyone practicing medicine under that banner. Educational requirements and examinations, too.

When that oversight maintains, then I'd have no problem with naturopathy. Sadly, it does not maintain, and some of the worst quacks on the planet operate under that banner in various jurisdictions. Many are also operating on the internet, recommending bad choices that cross state boundaries.

Too many naturopaths also deal with junk like crystal vibrations, homeopathy, and other useless techniques.

[Celebration]

34. as an aside

There are also medical doctors who practice homeopathy.

[MineralMan]

38. Then, insofar as they do that, they are quacks.

If I learned that a physician of mine practiced homeopathy, I'd seek other advice. Homeopathetic medicine is quackery, pure (or at least diluted to an extreme level) and simple.

In reality, I've found that it's mostly osteopaths who include homeopathy in their practice. I have nothing against osteopaths, but would not consult one, myself.

In the states where naturopathy is not licensed, but is permitted, naturopaths, in the majority, use all sorts of bogus methodologies in their practices.

Here's one story that happened to a friend of mine. She was someone who was sold on naturopathy, to the exclusion of all evidence-based medicine. She developed painful arthritis in the joints of her fingers, which were swollen and painful. Given her age, odds are that she was developing rheumatoid arthritis, and needed genuine medical attention.

She opted to visit her regular naturopath, who told her that he had a therapy for her painful joints. He injected tea tree oil into the joint capsules. I repeat: he injected tea tree oil into the joint capsules of her arthritic fingers.

The fingers on both of her hands had to be amputated, due to the violent inflammatory reaction that occurred, along with the infection that set in. It was a pity, because she made her living playing the piano.

Obviously, this moron had never done this before, since he would have already experienced the violent reaction the human body has to tea tree oil in any but a topical application.

She tried to sue this unlicensed naturopath, but he fled the state and changed his name, and could not be found. He probably had no insurance, in any case, and probably few assets to begin with. He's probably somewhere in Sedona, passing out herbs and doing crystal healing these days, under an assumed name. They love that crap there.

I knew the naturopath, too, since this was a small town. He was a singularly unintelligent, poorly-educated individual, who had learned his "craft" through correspondence courses and word of mouth. No doubt, he had read that applications of tea tree oil can relieve pain and swelling. Knowing nothing of value, however, he figured that direct injection would be even more therapeutic. So, he went ahead with his supposition and cost a woman her fingers and her livelihood.

And there you have it. Maybe the naturopath you visit is competent and would not do such an incredibly stupid thing. But, maybe not. How would you know? No standards. The use of questionable therapeutic methodologies, like homeopathy, "color therapy," colonic irrigation, and more, are part of the typical naturopath's armamentarium. Idiotic nonsense. Since most human diseases are self-limiting, naturopathetic practitioners usually don't do much harm. The smart ones bail on cases they know they can't deal with. In too many cases, however, they don't and someone is harmed or dies.

You can defend them as you choose. I will be here to present the opposing position whenever I encounter such defense.

[Celebration]

41. your state needs to get up to speed

http://www.wanp.org/

Naturopathic treatments have a long history of safe, clinical effectiveness with a significant amount of support from the scientific literature. Naturopathic physicians, or NDs, are licensed doctors who are required to graduate from an accredited four-year, postgraduate naturopathic medical school and to pass an extensive postdoctoral board examination (NPLEX) to receive a license. NDs do not oppose the use of conventional medications or surgery. Rather, they use or recommend conventional medicine only when more natural, nontoxic therapies are not indicated.

[Confusious]

59. Or go back to the 19th century

The power of the light of the rings of Saturn and raccoon fur.

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

86. Vaccines have origins in ancient eastern

medicine. As early as 200 BC.

[Orrex]

31. As an amusing aside...

I note that The North American Board of Naturopathic Examiners was founded by that paragon of upstanding moral rectitude William Bennett during his tenure as Secretary of Education.

And before anyone gets too excited about the accreditation granted by The Council on Naturopathic Medical Education, there's this to consider:

As with acupuncture and chiropractic schools, this recognition was not based upon the scientific validity of what is taught but on such factors as record-keeping, physical assets, financial status, makeup of the governing body, catalog characteristics, nondiscrimination policy, and self-evaluation system. NCNM, Bastyr, and Southwest became accredited.

In other words, the accreditation is a recognition of the institutions' administrative capability, rather than a validation of what is taught at the schools, which is a very separate issue.

When you say that Bastyr (which, I confess, I'd never heard of until ten minutes ago) "participates in all kinds of scientific clinical trials," are these trials specific to naturopathy? Or are you saying that Bastyr "participates in all kinds of scientific clinical studies" and by they way they offer a degree program in naturopathy?

[Celebration]

33. all of the above

My daughter's ND, paid for by her insurance, went to Bastyr. It is the granddaddy of the four year naturopathic degree programs. Yes, he is able to prescribe antibiotics if she needs it. Once she had a urinary tract infection from hell, and she ended up going to a urologist who gave her all kinds of strong antibiotics. The problem improved, but they were going to schedule her for all kinds of tests, etc. solely because of the remaining symptoms that she reported. She went to her ND, and whatever he did made all the problems go away in one visit. So, yes, I feel that going to a trained ND can save medical costs, as that type experience has been repeated over and over.

Here is some of Bastyr's current clinical trials.

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/projects/default.asp?view=CurrentResearchStudies

[Orrex]

35. Thank you for the link!

I'm heading out the door now, but I'll look into it when I'm online again later.

[HuckleB]

36. It certainly is warranted, IMO.

Also, I don't see where he says he doesn't want strong licensing requirement for naturopaths. If licensing exists, it needs to be much stronger than whatever exists now. I'm tired of friends who can no longer eat almost anything because some naturopath told them they were intolerant to every food group under the sun. Funny thing is that they'll follow this nonsense for years, and yet they are no more healthy than they were when they ate what they wanted to eat.

And that's just one example, however anecdotal it may be.

But some have looked into it from a less anecdotal vantage point:

Try http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3601 , including the research articles cited, for starters.

[Celebration]

37. read your op

He doesn't want any licensing of naturopaths or acupuncturists.

"What that means is that it’s far easier to persuade politicians that this woo or that woo deserves to be permitted or even licensed. That’s how we now have many states licensing acupuncturists, naturopaths, and even “homeopathic physicians,” as Arizona does. The pressure for this sort of acceptance of unscientific medical modalities is building, as well, as Kimball Atwood has documented."

What possible reason is there not to license acupuncturists or naturopathic doctors.

You don't seem at all familiar with the licencing requirements for naturopathic doctors in states such as Washington. If you did, you couldn't possibly be asking for higher standards.

There is no way that you can put all states into the same basket, when talking about licensing. He seems to decry any licensing at all. Ridiculous.

[HuckleB]

39. Clearly, his reasoning is that the licensing that exists allows for quackery.

Make the licensing truly strong, with an expectation of evidence-based practice, and the complaint falls to the wayside.

[Celebration]

40. And what about the acupuncture

Exactly what does he know about acupuncture licensing standards? Zilch? Why comment at all?

If he was for a particular type of strong licensing of naturopathic doctors, why make no mention of states where that already exists? Is he ignorant?

[HuckleB]

43. So you want him to write a book?

It's a blog piece, and it is long enough.

[Celebration]

44. haha

We are talking an extra sentence. The truth is that he doesn't want ANY kind of licensing of naturopathic doctors or acupuncturists. The quote makes it crystal clear. And, frankly, it is a dangerous idea.

[HuckleB]

47. It's whatever "extra sentence" you want to come up with to dismiss the piece.

That's disingenuous, and you know it.

[Celebration]

48. not at all

The piece is plenty long enough to have a statement calling for the stronger licensing standards of states like Washington and Oregon in all states.

Instead, he decries all licensing of naturopathic doctors. That means either he is against ALL licensing of NDs, or is completely unaware of different standards of different states.

And what does he want with acupuncturists? Here is his issue-- he doesn't want licensing because that shows state "approval" of acupuncture. With that could come insurance coverage, diluting the health care dollar away from where he would prefer to have it spent. Furthermore, people might choose going to acupuncturists rather than MDs for minor ailments.

But, guess what? Not everybody agrees with him. A lot of people LIKE acupuncture, and a lot of people LIKE their NDs. Well, too bad for him.

[HuckleB]

51. I don't buy what you're selling.

An author can cover only so much ground in such a piece. He covered that is of the moment.

[Confusious]

49. Why don't we license faith healers

Same thing as homeopathy and naturopathy and antipathy.

[Celebration]

57. Why would that be necessary?

If they are ineffective, there would be no opportunity for harm.

If people want to pay for their services, I don't see any reason why that should be disallowed. We would have to disallow ministers and clergy if we did that.

[Confusious]

58. If you had read any of the posts

Naturopathic faith healers do do harm. A person died in Washington because of it.

I see them as the same as faith healers, crooks out to make a buck at least, quacks at worst. A girl with asthma gets taken to a Naturopath who sends her home. she dies in the emergency parking lot due to it. People who believe in religious faith healers and people who believe in Naturo faith healers both enshew modern medicine in favor of wakadoodle cures that have no proof, and do damage to themselves their children and others.

"We would have to disallow ministers and clergy if we did that."

Uh, why? A minister or clergy is not the same as a faith healer.

[Celebration]

60. Naturopathic faith healer?

What does naturopathy have to do with faith healing? They don't even seem related. To be a Naturopath in Washington you have to be licensed.

Ministers lead prayers for people's health all the time. Do you want to stop that?

[Confusious]

61. Boy

Naturopathy is the same in effectiveness as a faith healer, meaning not at all.

Naturopathy uses the same quackery ( Healing spirits to clean you )as faith healing

Naturopathy has no scientific basis, nor does faith healing

Naturopathy take money from the gullible, the same as faith healers.

Ministers and clergy lead prayers for people for free, Naturopaths and faith healers expect money.

You can get a license to be a beautician, doesn't mean you can practice medicine.

[Celebration]

62. ............

:rofl:

Obviously, you know nothing about naturopathy.

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/projects/default.asp?view=CurrentResearchStudies

A Comparative Effectiveness Trial of High-Quality Vitamin D3 Nutritional Supplements to Replete Serum Vitamin D
Principal Investigator: Ryan Bradley, ND
Project Period: Jan – Dec, 2010
The importance of vitamin D in the prevention and treatment of diabetes and cardiovascular disease has gained increased attention in recent years. There is a need to determine what forms of vitamin D may be supplemented to correct vitamin D insufficiency and to elucidate possible mechanisms by which vitamin D sufficiency may decrease risk for developing diabetes. This randomized clinical trail will compare the effects of three different vitamin D supplements to correct insufficiency and will determine the effects of vitamin D repletion on the expression of the Klotho protein.

Feeding the Rainbow to Investigate Endothelial Dysfunction Protocol
Funded by Standard Process, Inc
Principal Investigator: Ryan Bradley
Project Period: 2009-2010
This project will evaluate the effects of carotenoid enrichment from food and supplements in healthy volunteers. We will also evaluate the effects of carotenoid-enrichment on biomarkers of human antioxidant capacity and acute oxidative stress-mediated endothelial dysfunction following a pro-inflammatory challenge meal. Changes in biomarkers of chronic, oxidative cardiometabolic risk will also be evaluated.

The Impacts of Yi Ren Qigong on Self-Care
Funded by the Institute of Qigong & Internal Alternative Medicine
Principal Investigator: Guan-Cheng Sun
Project Period: 2009 – 2010
The purpose of this project is to investigate the impacts of a specific style of Qigong, Yi Ren, on the practitioner's health and well-being. This will be achieved with a self-report questionnaire form.

Bastyr Integrated Oncology Research Center Prospective Outcomes Cleavage Creek Winery
Principal Investigator: Leanna Standish, ND, LAc, FABNO
Project Period: 2008 – 2013
Bastyr University/Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center collaborative study. Using information gathered at the new Integrative Oncology Research Clinic, Bastyr University will collaborate with the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle on a controlled outcomes study. This study will compare the 'disease free survival' and quality of life in cancer patients who are treated in the Integrated Oncology Research Center to patients living in Washington State who do not include complementary, alternative or integrated therapies in their treatment plans. BIORC Information Page

Preclinical studies of CAM Botanicals and Iron Overload
Principal Investigator: Don Messner, PhD
Project Period: 2008 – 2013
This study investigates effects of turmeric and its components on liver damage and liver cancer caused by iron overload. It is a laboratory based project that makes use of cell culture and mouse models of human disease. It includes genomic and proteomic approaches to identify biomarkers of turmeric action through collaboration between investigators at Bastyr University, the Benaroya Research Institute at Virginia Mason, and the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center.

Mechanisms of PSK Enhancement of Docetaxel in a Xenograft of Human Prostate Cancer
Principal Investigator: Cynthia Wenner, PhD
Project Period: 2008 – 2009
The objective of this study is to better understand the mechanisms of polysaccharide krestin, an extract of mushroom Trametes versicolor, enhancement of docetaxel for the treatment of hormone refractory prostate cancer (HRPC) to lay the groundwork for a Phase I dose escalation trial in patients with HRPC.

Outcomes of Community Naturopathic Care for Type 2 Diabetes
Principal Investigator: Dan Cherkin (UW), Ryan Bradley (BU)
Project Period: 2008 – 2011
This study evaluates naturopathic care for type 2 diabetes patients.

Mechanisms of Immunomodulatory and Anti-tumor Actions of Polysaccharide Krestin
Principal Investigator: Mary Disis (UW), Co-Investigator: CA Wenner
Project Period: 2007 – 2011
Mushroom extracts have long been used in Asia as immunopotentiating agents. Previous studies have shown that ingestion of mushroom extracts can cause tumors to shrink or stop progressing in animal models of cancer and in cancer patients. However, how these agents induce anti-tumor effects is unknown. The proposed study will use the neutransgenic (neu-tg) mouse, a model of breast cancer, to study the effects of protein-bound polysaccharide Krestin (PSK), an extract from the woody mushroom Trametes versicolor, on anti-tumor immune responses. The goal of this study is to determine in the neu-tg model whether PSK induces an anti-tumor immune response, thus reversing immune suppressive effects of the tumor microenvironment.

Echinacea for Preventing Colds in Children, Subcontract with Child Health Institute
Principal Investigator: James Taylor (UW), Co-Investigator: Cynthia Wenner
Project Period: 2006 – 2009
An unexpected result of an earlier randomized controlled trial was that patients receiving Echinacea had fewer subsequent upper respiratory infections (URIs) during the 4-month study period than children who received placebo for treatment of acute symptoms. This study is designed to further delineate the potential efficacy of Echinacea in preventing URIs in children.

[Confusious]

71. Interesting

If they are starting to fund and do "science based studies", good for them. But then, what's the difference between them and regular medicine? Besides less education, which makes for a poor doctor.

But if they are still going to use Homeopathy or other quackery, well then, they are still frauds.

Naturopathy is criticized for its reliance on and its association with unproven, disproven, and other controversial alternative medical treatments, and for its vitalistic underpinnings.<54> As with any alternative care, there is a risk of misdiagnosis; this risk may be lower depending on level of training.<1><4> There is also a risk that ailments that cannot be diagnosed by naturopaths will go untreated while a patient attempts treatment programs designed by their naturopath. Certain naturopathic treatments, such as homeopathy and iridology, are widely considered pseudoscience or quackery.<79><80><81> Natural methods and chemicals are not necessarily safer or more effective than artificial or synthetic ones; any treatment capable of eliciting an effect may also have deleterious side effects.<3><5><82><83>

Stephen Barrett (of Quackwatch and the National Council Against Health Fraud) has stated that the philosophy of naturopathy is "simplistic and that its practices are riddled with quackery."<3>

K. C. Atwood writes, in the journal Medscape General Medicine, "Naturopathic physicians now claim to be primary care physicians proficient in the practice of both "conventional" and "natural" medicine. Their training, however, amounts to a small fraction of that of medical doctors who practice primary care. An examination of their literature, moreover, reveals that it is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and potentially dangerous practices."<10>

[Celebration]

74. look at their studies

which are way into nutrition, and the use of herbs. THAT is what makes them different from MDs. But they have labs, organic chemistry classes, biology classes, etc., just like MD training. But they don't do operations, and they don't do emergency rooms. That frees up a lot of time for the work in nutrition and preventative treatment. They are not less trained in areas that they actually deal with. But they are not trained in things they don't actually practice, such as emergency appendectomies.

In Seattle there is quite a bit of collaboration between the NDs and the MDs. I am not sure why it seems so adversarial here.

[Confusious]

77. Then shoudn't they be called

midwives and nutritionists? Or did they just want the title, but not have to do the hard work that goes with it?

Most family doctors don't do operations or emergency rooms. That would be a surgeon who does that.

"I am not sure why it seems so adversarial here."

Probably because these same people attack science to create doubt to drive people to their door for ineffective quackery so they can make a buck and make them feel important.

[Celebration]

80. no

Although most have programs where you can specialize in those programs. Most NDs would probably have some training in both midwifery and nutrition. What other profession has that? And, in case you haven't noticed, traditional nutrition programs generally do no training or research on the use of herbal medications.

Although family doctors don't do operations, they sure do have to train for it. That does not mean "better training" in family medicine--only that they trained for something they don't use.

In any case there are many professions that have duties that are similar to other named professions. One example is "physician's assistant" and "nurse practitioners." Are you going to try to eliminate one named category because they are similar to each other?

[Confusious]

72. There's also another thing

I've been thinking about. Why are there no homeopathic engineers? or naturopath engineers? Why aren't they building homeopathic bridges across the united states, or homeopathic buildings?

I mean, if their procedure is valid, it should apply to multiple disciplines, just as the scientific theory is applied across bridges, ships, buildings, the atom, chemistry, even the computer you are working on.

I mean, we're all made up of the same stuff, the iron in bridges could just as well be in my blood. Could it be that the bridge, the ship, the airplane, have no placebo effect to take advantage of?

[Orrex]

73. Homeopathic astronomy is the only thing that kept us from blowing up the moon

THE ONLY THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!

[Celebration]

75. And I've always wondered

Why peer reviewed double blind studies haven't made it into more areas. For instance, if someone asks me the best way to get to the airport, I should have to prove to them that one entrance to the expressway is better than another, due to traffic or other conditions.

I mean, do I really know? Shouldn't I have to prove it when I say that often it seems like a lot of people speed there, and this other route seems better to me?

Also, what about recommending a certain supermarket. What if I say that at one place the food seems more fresh. But......maybe not. Do I really know what I am talking about? I should be able to PROVE that's the case.

And with aesthetic taste. Shouldn't I have to prove it when I say that rock and roll has gone down hill since the 80s?

If peer reviewed literature is so great, we need to extend it into all aspects of our lives.

[Confusious]

76. You really have no idea how science works do you?

I shouldn't even bother asking, cause you are a faith healer type person. But I thought I might try.

[Celebration]

81. LOL

Of course I do. Why not extend it to everything? About as ridiculous as your supposition, isn't it?

[BuddhaGirl]

82. Dr. Michael Murray, N.D.

http://www.ibrfinc.org/bio_sab_micMur.html

He serves on the Board Of Directors & Scientific Advisory Board for the International Brain Research Foundation. Check out his fellow Directors here: http://www.ibrfinc.org/bod_sab.html

yep, some big quack faith healer, eh? :eyes:

[HuckleB]

52. Here's a rebuttal to a Canadian Naturopathic defense of this bill...

http://www.skepticnorth.com/2009/11/skeptic-north-response-to-naturopaths.html

Reading the piece by the Naturopaths ought to cause concern for anyone who cares about evidence-based-medicine.

[Confusious]

53. HA! Another good one

"Four years of specialized education is also meaningless if the subject is meaningless. A masters degree in unicorn breeding from an unaffiliated college does not mean that unicorns exist."

[HuckleB]

55. That is a great line, indeed.

:hi:

[HuckleB]

50. More from Skeptic North.

Magician Prescriptions: Ontario Poised to Let Naturopaths Prescribe:
http://www.skepticnorth.com/2009/11/magician-prescriptions-ontario-poised.html

Why Bill 179 Matters and is a threat to Medical Standards:
http://www.skepticnorth.com/2009/11/why-bill-179-matters-and-is-threat-to.html

Bill 179: The Zero Hour:
http://www.skepticnorth.com/2009/12/bill-179-zero-hour.html

[xchrom]

92. kick