Measles Outbreak Triggered by Unvaccinated Child

[Ian David]

Measles Outbreak Triggered by Unvaccinated Child
Case illustrates that people who chose not to vaccinate put others at risk, researcher says

MONDAY, March 22 (HealthDay News) -- What began as a family trip to Switzerland in 2008 ended up as a public health nightmare in California.

The family's 7-year-old boy, who was intentionally unvaccinated against measles, was exposed to the virus while traveling in Europe. When he returned home to San Diego, he unknowingly exposed a total of 839 people, and an additional 11 unvaccinated children contracted the disease. Three of those infected were babies, too young to have yet received the measles vaccines, and one of the babies was hospitalized for three days with a 106-degree fever, according to a report to be published in the April issue of Pediatrics.

<snip>

"This study serves as a reminder that measles can be a very serious disease that can lead to severe complications and death, and that the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine is highly effective and the best way to prevent measles. It's also a reminder that people who choose not to vaccinate don't just put themselves and their children at risk, but also their communities, which includes infants who are too young to immunize," she said.

This 2008 outbreak was the first in San Diego since 1991, according to the report. Before the introduction of the measles vaccine in 1963, as many as 500 children died each year from the measles, and nearly 50,000 were hospitalized annually in the United States because of the virus, according to background information in the report.

In recent years, however, the virus has resurged as many parents choose not to vaccinate their children, often because of fears about serious side effects. In fact, a recent study from the University of Michigan found that even among those who do vaccinate, more than half are concerned about serious side effects. Many of these fears stem a reported link between the MMR vaccine and autism. This link has been disproved in numerous studies, however.

More:
http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=637218

Hat-tip to: http://twitter.com/AtomicAmelyn/status/11221499273

See also:


The Jenny McCarthy Song
Topic started by Ian David on May-28-09 06:19 PM (46 replies)
Last modified by mzmolly on May-30-09 12:11 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=317739

[Odin2005]

1. But at least he didn't get TEH AUTISM!11!!

:sarcasm:

[BlueIris]

3. Or teh brain damage! nt

[Oldtimeralso]

61. And All This Time I Thought It Was Drain Bamage!

[barbiegeek]

4. Mercury was removed in 1999, Autism is caused by something else

If mercury was the cause when it was removed in 1999, autism rates should go down NOT up. Most autistic parents NEVER even check their vaccine records with the physicians desk reference for that year and even LOOK at the ingredients to know for sure whether or not they got the shot. Most even vaccine "CLAIMED" injured parents if you talk to them report sensory issues in infancy... such as colic, thrush, light & sound sensitivity. Most autistic child walk early and don't crawl for very long WAY before they even get the shot at age 2.

[Ian David]

7. Vaccines still carry the vibrational memory of the Mercury that used to be in it.

:sarcasm:

[ElboRuum]

101. Harsh...

Funny tho.

[loudsue]

11. Mercury is STILL present in vaccines. I don't know who you've been

talking to, but you are misinformed about it. There was ONE drug company that made some synthetic substitute for mercury for a certain vaccine, and paid the media dearly to say it was all safe, which it is not. (Sorry, can't remember which vaccine it was...I think it was swine flu) .

I had measles at the age of 42, during the last outbreak in 1991/1992. I was horribly sick, and for almost 3 weeks was very close to death. Measles is really hard on adults. Very very painful.

I had taken all the shots as a kid, but the vaccinations are not necessarily going to prevent measles in every case.

[Iggo]

12. And now you have autism, right?

[loudsue]

18. No. I was vaccinated sometime around 1958 or 1959.

Before they dreamed-up putting high levels of mercury into the vaccines.

[LeftishBrit]

23. Then you weren't vaccinated against measles.

Measles vaccine was not available at all till 1963, and not widely available until 1968. There were plenty of other vaccines around pre-1960 but not that one.

It is possible to get measles after being vaccinated, or indeed to catch measles again after having the disease once; but neither is common. It's likely that you got measles when exposed because you had neither been vaccinated nor had it previously. Anyway, sorry that you were so ill, and glad that you are fine now!

[slackmaster]

29. Correct. I was vaccinated in about 1960, and I got the measles as a young child

A very, very mild case. Same with chicken pox and mumps.

The Good Old Days.

[kurtzapril4]

92. I got measles as a 4 year old, in 1963

And even now, I remember how sick I was. I remember the alcohol sponge baths, and being put in a bathtub full of cold, cold ice water to bring my fever down...which at one one point was 105.5, according to the medical records. I remember Dr. Golder making a house-call, back in the day when physicians did that sort of thing. I remember him giving me a shot in the butt(my left cheek)with a syringe with a huge needle. It hit my sciatic nerve, and my left leg is slightly shorter than my right. I ended up in the hospital, getting fluids. It was 2 weeks of being very, very, deathly ill. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

These people who are not vaccinating their children really p*ss me off. It's just more of that "I got mine, to hell with you" mentality.

[Maru Kitteh]

25. 1 ounce. ONE OUNCE of canned Tuna has more mercury than ANY vaccine in the US

Where the fuck is the Albacore Tuna Causes Autism moonbattery?

[SidDithers]

26. Well said...nt

Sid

[Javaman]

53. see it's like this....

(must be done in the voice of The Dude from "The Big Labowski")

"See, man, it's like the tuna, has like, you know, scales. And those scales, man, have like shiny stuff that prevent the mercury from shining. It's counter-acting the shininess. So having scales will allow you to not get the stuff...what were we talking about?"

[tavalon]

112. You are correct

But the mercury doesn't cross through the gut into the blood. But thimerosal goes into the blood stream and into the brain easily. Thimerosal alone didn't cause the epidemic but it contributed. The newer autism is multi-factorial, and it does include a genetic predisposition which is exacerbated by many environmental factors, some of which we don't likely know about yet.

[skepticscott]

154. In other words,

our theory about thimerosal causing autism got blown out of the water when they stopped using it and autism rates didn't plummet, so we had to dream up some new, whackier rationalization rather than admitting we were just plain wrong.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

178. Prove that thimerosal contributed to the "epidemic."

[HuckleB]

199. I'm still waiting.

[jeff47]

187. Wrong on mercury

"But the mercury doesn't cross through the gut into the blood."

Wrong. Otherwise there would be no such thing as "mercury poisoning".

If you were correct, you could drink the stuff all day long and it would just come out the other end.

[SidDithers]

196. Why, then, are pregnant women warned against eating too much fish...

particularly tuna, which could have a high mercury content?

I believe you're wrong about mercury not being absorbed in the gut.

Sid

[Confusious]

208. teh funny it hruts soooooooooooo much

"But the mercury doesn't cross through the gut into the blood"

Then why do they take blood to check mercury levels? How do you get mercury poisoning then?

Teh docs like teh birght red!?!

[HuckleB]

209. +1

[liberation]

64. I don't think that "high levels" mean what you want it to mean in this context...

Jenny McCarthy's child was probably exposed to more mercury from her implants, than from any vaccine. Yet, I don't see that idiot asking for a ban in silicone implants which are the basis of her whole "career."

[Confusious]

207. Fail

Thermisol (teh MERCURIES!!!!) has been around since the 1930's. Probably used in larger quantities in the vaccines you got.

[barbiegeek]

19. Mercury is not in the Measle vaccine given to 2 year olds

It hasn't been for 11 years. Again, check the physician's desk reference for MMR vaccine

[truedelphi]

152. So what happened to the vast stocks of vaccine material that did contain the

Mercury?

Several people who testified to the Health Council of Marin in the late nineties said that those vaccines were simply used up, as there was some legal loop hole in the law that the vaccines could be used until they were gone.

And something still is being used as an adjuvant. Whether it be formaldehyde or some other aldehyde, it could be as damaging as the mercury.

[Ms. Toad]

28. Flu vaccines do still routinely include thimerosol,

unless you specifically request one that does not, and parents are increasingly being urged to vaccinate children against flu.

Those that are individually dosed do not contain thimerosol, but there is a limited supply available.

[Maru Kitteh]

32. A single ounce of canned tuna contains more mercury than ANY U.S. vaccine

Why don't Jenny and her troupe of idiots rail against the EVIL Big Albacore Tuna Industry giving their previously perfect little angels teh autism?

[liberation]

66. ... puts down sushi.

Thanks for ruining lunch ;-) J/K

Yeah, the anti-vaccine idiots... looking everywhere else while ignoring the possible genetic link. Me thinks Ms (or is she a mrs now?) McArthy is more interested in finding an excuse so she can feel better about herself, than she is interested in an honest attempt at dealing with autism and those who suffer from it.

People should put the effort they waste in making baseless accusations, until an actual causation link is found and validated, in helping kids suffering from this disorder to be taken care of and integrated/supported by our society. We need to cut it out with the whole libertarian notion that the whole purpose of a human being and its contribution to society is to make "money."

[tavalon]

113. You really have no idea what you're talking about

The narrow mindedness I see here on DU around this single topic is mindboggling.

[HuckleB]

201. So why are you spreading a narrow-minded theology on this issue?

[Ms. Toad]

114. As far as I know, canned tuna is not an ingredient in vaccines.

Your response which was completely irrelevant to the question I responded to and the answer I gave, which was limited to the factual information that vaccines given to children still routinely include thimerosol - specifically flu vaccines.

[GoCubsGo]

148. So does the fallout from coal combustion

Coal-fueled power plants spew out hundreds of times more mercury and other heavy metals from their smoke stacks than is found in any vaccine. It gets up into the air and settles hundreds of miles away, where it contaminates whatever it lands on.

BTW, some ecotoxicologist friends of mine tested some of our colleagues for mercury. The highest was in one of the maintenance guys. He was into weight-lifting, and live off of canned tuna, which is a relatively cheap source of protein. His levels were five times that of everyone else they tested.

[Maru Kitteh]

31. TABLE SHOWING THE CURRENT AND PAST LEVELS OF THIMERISOL

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

Please notice that the MAJORITY of them are thimerisol FREE and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

[SidDithers]

35. Good link!...

bookmarking. Thanks for posting it. :hi:

Sid

[Maru Kitteh]

42. No problem Sid! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

39. Really? Which ones?

And where did you get YOUR information?

[Deep13]

76. Mercury does not cause autism. nt

[defendandprotect]

118. ... and toxic sludge is good for you -- !!

[kurtzapril4]

91. You are supposed to be re-vaccinated at regular intervals as an adult. n/t

[Jefferson23]

95. lol

The picture of the child is horrific, poor little guy.

I hope more parents will consider having their child vaccinated.

[tavalon]

111. Not cool

You may be happy with your Aspergers but my kid will never lead an independent life. No matter what your point of view about vaccinations may be, you are an asshat to make jokes at the expense of the many children now suffering with autism.

[WhiteTara]

2. I remember that misery

first chicken pox, then measles, then mumps. Yikes what a childhood in the early 50s.

[madrchsod]

14. so did our parents and grand parents

today we`ve had the luxury of not having to worry about those diseases. just think of what they thought before polio vaccine,scarlet fever.......

[BolivarianHero]

49. uh...

I'm 26 and I've never been vaccinated for scarlet fever. To the best of my knowledge, Ontario uses the same vaccine regimen as most of the U.s.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

87. Scarlet fever is rare in industrialized nations

And it's easily treatable with antibiotics. There was a vaccine for it, but I don't think it's been used in quite a few decades. I was born in '73 and I didn't get the vax for it.

[elleng]

107. Scarlet Fever comes from STREP,

which is treated EASILY by antibiotics. I don't know how rare it is.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

109. I've never known someone with it

I'm not speaking from a statistical point of view, more of an anecdotal POV.

[elleng]

110. Me, too. Learned from our pediatrician some years ago,

checking daughter's tummy for 'rash,' and diagnosed the strep that way!

Imagine how awful it must have been, before this could be treated? How many cases of strep throat have you or yours had or heard of? HUNDREDS, here. Not allowed back to school until fever had been gone for 2 days.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

145. I got strep at least twice a year when I was a kid

At least once, the swelling was so bad that I had a hard time breathing. I can't imagine how terrible it was before antibiotics - death was probably not uncommon.

[pipi_k]

20. Yep...had all of them too....plus

Hepatitis A (the only one in my family of 5 who did) when I was in third grade.

I was out of school and sicker than a dog for a whole month.

Not fun.

[hobbit709]

5. If I was a parent of one of those babies

I'd be sending these idiots the hospital bill.

[barbiegeek]

6. Your right!

[Posteritatis]

8. My thought exactly. (nt)

[SidDithers]

9. Send it to Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy...nt

Sid

[pipi_k]

17. I'd also like to see

parents of willfully unvaccinated children who have exposed others to the disease be prosecuted if one of the known victims dies.

Fine. People don't want their kids vaccinated? Keep them at home or put masks on them so they don't act as walking germ dispensers.


I have an extremely low opinion of people who intentionally...arrogantly...expose others to their fucking germs.

[Heywood J]

59. Especially the kid with the 106 fever - that could have caused

several issues. I'm wondering how long it takes for the parents to lawyer up.

[unpossibles]

10. more people need to see this. nt

[madrchsod]

13. exposure to measles is one of the biggest fears during pregnancy

measles were/are one of the leasing causes of mental retardation in children.

[Iggo]

16. No. No. NO!!1

The vaccine is bad! The disease is good!

[AngryAmish]

46. The disease is naaaatttuurrrraaallllll

[Iggo]

47. Exactly! It's like holistically pure and some shit. (n/t)

[Javaman]

55. Yeah, those folks in the 1800's really knew how to live!!!

During the Civil War, 67,763 case of measles were reported among the Union forces. 4,246 deaths.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4453053

Measles, if not properly vaccinated against and/or quarantined, is some really nasty shit.

U.S. population in 1865 was, roughly, 35 million.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-was-the-population-of-the-us-throughout-its-history.htm

That many soldiers, not including general population is a significant chunk.

[spinbaby]

27. That's German measles, I think

German measles is the variety linked to birth defects, if I remember correctly. I have a friend who was exposed in utero and was born with cataracts. Women of childbearing age need to be sure they're up to date on that vaccination because it does need to be renewed from time to time.

[Mz Pip]

38. Rubella

I remember decades ago when we applied for a marriage license I had to provide a copy of a blood test showing that I had Rubella antibodies. It can be very serious if contracted during pregnancy. I had it when I was about 10. It was much less nasty than regular measles. Sometimes it can be so mild that you hardly know you have something wrong with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella

[mzmolly]

70. Yeah. Too bad my vaccine wore off

by the time I was preggers.

[Soylent Brice]

15. K&R

[snooper2]

21. Bet the anti-vaccinate crowd doesn't show up in this thread...

nt

[The Straight Story]

33. I'm not anti - but I am pro-choice, your body, your choice - some don't like that concept though (nt

[Robb]

36. I file it under end-of-your-nose freedoms.

e.g. once your personal freedom begins to affect me and mine, you're out of rope.

Again, personal choice is AOK, but if you want to participate in society you've got to give up a few practices that are dangerous to the rest of us. You wanna wave a loaded gun around with the safety off? Go for it, but please do it in the woods, not the supermarket. :)

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. The vast majority of freedoms are now classified as end-of-your-nose.

[Robb]

51. I see it from the other end

...The notion of "dangerous to me and mine" has been waaaaaaay overexpanded.

[Maru Kitteh]

37. And what choice did the babies that could be killed, scarred or injured have?

I would sue the everloving shit out of those parents.

[Pithlet]

43. Not vaccinating is a choice that affects other people. A choice that can kill them. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

98. There seems to be a flaw in that logic

If the vaccine works and you and your family have had the shot, then exposure to someone that got the disease should be a pretty minimal threat to you.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

120. It's only a flaw to those that don't understand the concept of "herd immunity" or how vaccines work.

[FiveGoodMen]

126. Are YOU one of those people?

"Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a type of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a portion of the population (or herd) provides protection to unprotected individuals.<1> Herd immunity theory proposes that, in diseases passed from person to person, it is more difficult to maintain a chain of infection when large numbers of a population are immune. The higher the proportion of individuals who are immune, the lower the likelihood that a susceptible person will come into contact with an infected individual.<2>

Vaccination acts as a sort of firebreak or firewall in the spread of the disease, slowing or preventing further transmission of the disease to others.<3> Unvaccinated individuals are indirectly protected by vaccinated individuals, as the latter will not contract and transmit the disease between infected and susceptible individuals.<2> Hence, a public health policy of herd immunity may be used to reduce spread of an illness and provide a level of protection to a vulnerable, unvaccinated subgroup. Since only a small fraction of the population (or herd) can be left unvaccinated for this method to be effective, it is considered best left for those who cannot safely receive vaccines because of a medical condition such as an immune disorder or for organ transplant recipients."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

In other words, if lots of people are vaccinated, then those who are NOT vaccinated are effectively safer.

That's not a bad idea, but unless we're talking about protecting someone who can't be vaccinated, anyone getting on their high horse about being put at risk is full of it. Just get the shot and shut up.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

127. *sigh*. Vaccines are not 100% effective.

The idea is that if you are one of the people in which it is not effective, the disease isn't running rampant through your area anyway because there aren't enough naive individuals to keep it going. That's one group who relies on herd immunity. Other groups includes people who are too young to be vaccinated, have allergies, are immunodeficient etc.

On Edit: So yes, even if you have done the responsible thing and been vaccinated, you are STILL relying on other people in the event that your vaccine was not effective. If you are a new parent or plan on being a parent one day you are also relying on herd immunity to protect your child until it can be vaccinated.

[kimmerspixelated]

131. Touche'!!

[Salviati]

155. There are those who cannot choose to get the vaccine.

E.g. the infants in the OP, and those with compromised immune systems. In a country full of sensable people, these at risk groups would be pretty safe, because the general population is a poor breeding ground for these diseases, and outbreaks are extremely rare. When people decide to go unvaccinated, they are not only taking their own health into their hands, but many others as well.

[FiveGoodMen]

192. That's a good point.

My original quibble (and that's all it was) dealt with the people who appeared to be saying they'd had their shots but were still at risk from those who didn't get one.

[defendandprotect]

141. Vaccines also kill and that's something that we should think about . . .

[HuckleB]

48. I'd call it pro-disease.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/the_intellectual_dishonesty_of_the_vacci.php

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

75. +1, public health issue, not a civil rights issue. nt

[liberation]

65. A child is not property, "personal choices" stop being "personal"

the minute you start making choices about other people's bodies.

I am not comfortable with the anti-vaccine crowd at all. People who do not understand something as basic as "correlation does not imply causation" should not be allowed to influence health care issues which are of the scientific persuasion.

[kimmerspixelated]

130. I respect that.

[kimmerspixelated]

129. Surprise! Not cowardly at all!

I'm waiting to read the other posts.

[SolidGold]

22. Don't want to vaccinate? Then vacate.

Vaccinations should be the law not a choice. The idiots that think vaccines are bad should go live in a place that has none.

[kimmerspixelated]

132. WOW! So you believe in Fascism???

Do you have children? Just curious.

[uppityperson]

181. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"

[tammywammy]

24. This is just more big pharma propaganda

Just a scare tactic so they can make more money and infect more with autism.

:sarcasm:

[closeupready]

30. Have outbreaks ever been triggered by vaccinated children?

n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

34. Yes. It's been a decades-long outbreak of healthy, liiving children.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

121. lol.

[melm00se]

40. If the kid was exposed

to measles wouldn't that have come from meeting with some one with measles and if vaccination is the norm in Europe something just doesn't smell right here.

[HuckleB]

44. Vaccination is the norm in the US, too.

And yet this kid spread it to others. So what's your nose telling you again?

[mainer]

56. There's an anti-vaccine movement in Europe as well

just like here in the U.S. A whole group of parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

[liberation]

67. Except that over there is illegal and can lead to jail sentences in some EU states...

... plus the anti-vaccination movement over there must be in the single digits member-wise.

Good grief, it is the XXI century. Some people should just get over the fact that we live in a society and science has advanced a big deal in the past 2 thousand years...

[TZ]

62. You can thank Dr. Andrew Wakefield for the return of measles in Europe

He's the idiot that started the MMR causes Autism nonsense over there. There has been a LARGE increase in Measles since he became publicized.

[kimmerspixelated]

133. Yep! DINGDINGDING!

[madmom]

41. My daughter had to get a tetanus shot last week, they gave her a

DPT booster because they said pertussis (whooping cough) is making a come back.

[Javaman]

57. Making a comeback big time. And you know why, right?

because of the anti-vac nuts.

[mzmolly]

71. No because of waining immunity and a new desire to push a NEW adult booster.

Pertussis vaccine compliance among children is at an all time high. I assume you've had your adult boosters?

[kimmerspixelated]

135. My daughter was vaxed for Pertussis ...

SHE STILL GOT IT! It was short lived and treatable.

[TheMightyFavog]

45. An appropriate quote from House...

a young mother and her baby.]

Young Mother: No formula, just mommy's healthy natural breast milk.

House: Yummy.

Young Mother: Her whole face just got swollen like this overnight.

House: Mmhmm. No fever, glands normal, missing her vaccination dates.

Young Mother: We're not vaccinating.



Young Mother:
Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.



House: Think they don't work?

Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants
me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.

House: Mmmm. May I? noise with the baby]

Young Mother: Sure.

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. All natural no
dies. That's a good business: all-natural children's toys. Those toy
companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie
about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy
company can be accused of is making a really boring frog.



House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good
business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or
fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect
the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can
gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your
kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred
parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up
40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast.
Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

Young Mother: Tell me what she has.

House: A cold.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. Their immune systems should have pulled themselves by their bootstraps!

No need of big gubmint antibody handout!

[Xithras]

54. While we're all heaping scorn onto the parents of the unvaccinated...

Please keep in mind that some of us are parents to children with true-egg allergies who cannot be given many vaccines. MMR is now cleared for use in egg-allergic children (my 5 year old finally received his first MMR last year), but there are still a whole suite of diseases that they simply cannot be vaccinated against. No flu, no yellow fever, no typhoid...there's a bit of a list. Any virus cultured in live chicken eggs (which is most of them) is potentially deadly.

BTW, my sister, who is a stark raving mad vegan activist, has also left her children unvaccinated for a related reason. For her, using egg-cultured vaccines violates her principles of veganism. I think it's an incredibly stupid reason for not vaccinating your kids, but this is the same woman who once compared me to a southern plantation slavemaster because I owned three dogs, two horses, and a bunch of chickens at the time. Some vegans are really serious about their beliefs.

[SidDithers]

58. All the more reason to vaccinate kids who can be vaccinated...

to build herd immunity, and reduce the chances of exposure for kids who are unable to be vaccinated.

I reserve my scorn for parents who make the conscious decision not to vaccinate because of information gleaned from sources like Jenny McCarthy, mercola and NaturalNews.

Best of luck with your little one :)

Sid

Edit: speeling

[TZ]

63. There are people with autoimmune disorders like Lupus that can't be vaccinated

with certain vaccines either. No shame in that. I think the anti-vax nuts are a huge danger to your children who cannot be protected...

[Ian David]

78. Exactly. And those who CAN be vaccinated but REFUSE to be endanger YOUR kids who CAN'T be vaccinated

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. You have a good reason for not vaccinating your kids

The scorn you read here is not being directed towards you. It's directed towards people like your sister who endanger your kids because she's too stuck in being ideological pure to consider that her actions may kill another child.

[Jefferson23]

96. I wasn't aware of the egg-allergies non compatibility, how stressful

for you!

As for your sister's vegan opinion, I hope you laughed, that is pretty hilarious, o' slave master Xithras.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

125. Your child relies on herd immunity to protect him or her.

Herd immunity protects those that are not vaccinated by preventing a full blown outbreak. It ONLY works when a certain percentage of the population is vaccinated though. People like the 11% in this area are putting those who can't get vaccines in danger.

[alp227]

68. Exposed to measles in Switzerland?

Clearly measles has not been eradicated. According to Wikipedia's article "measles outbreaks in the 2000s":

After the MMR vaccine controversy began, the MMR vaccination compliance dropped sharply in the United Kingdom, from 92% in 1996 to 84% in 2002. In some parts of London, it was as low as 61% in 2003, far below the rate needed to avoid an epidemic of measles<4>. By 2006 coverage for MMR in the UK at 24 months was 85%, lower than the about 94% coverage for other vaccines.<5>

Yep, you can sorta credit that crook Andrew Wakefield.

And in Israel: "Many children in ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities were affected due to low vaccination coverage."

If it takes deaths to wake up the anti-vax types it surely shows how heartless and mindless they are for trying to save their own children from autism (when there's no link between vaccines and autism) at the cost of everyone else's health. The majority of people get vaccines, yet the majority of people don't have autism!

[mzmolly]

69. Where was that herd immunity when ya need it huh? My goodess, the false sense of security goes POOF

because one kid travels to Switzerland? My poor fully vaccinated husband had a nasty case of Measles as a child. I don't think it made the papers?

[uppityperson]

115. Herd immunity doesn't work indeed. It is false security that goes POOF

when an active case enters a community. Doesn't need to come from switzerland, but even from a visiting kid from next-town-over who had a relative visit them 2 weeks ago from another state.

What with rapid air travel, herd immunity doesn't work.

[mzmolly]

116. Right. So all those people who vaccinated to "protect others" again

did no such thing.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

122. No. Herd immunity works only if a certain amount of people are vaccinated.

When the threshold is not reached, it no longer works.

[mzmolly]

143. I understand the premise.

Thanks.

[uppityperson]

123. You have it backwards. Those who weren't vacced are the ones who

were relying on "herd immunity", that being if enough other people were vacced, THEY wouldn't have to as *they* would be protected because *they* were special. And "enough" other people weren't vaccinated, so no herd immunity.

[mzmolly]

142. I was correct. Herd immunity

did not protect others in this case.

[uppityperson]

182. Herd immunity works only if a certain amount of people are vaccinated

Herd immunity works only if a certain amount of people are vaccinated.

When the threshold is not reached, it no longer works.

[mzmolly]

191. Again, I understand the premise. The threshold

is between 83% - 94% for measles. This population had 89% coverage (largely due to infants in the pop. being too young for vaccination) which is excellent.

[uppityperson]

128. I missed one point here. ENOUGH people have to be vacced to make it work, which

doesn't happen often. Too many people rely on "others", so don't get vacced, so the numbers are not high enough to adequately protect them when an active case enters the community.

[mzmolly]

144. Again, I understand the premise.

In this case, the article points to ONE child who started the measles ball rolling in a highly vaccinated population.

[DirkGently]

72. An irrational trend

It's good to be suspicious of Big Pharma and all, but the anti-vaccine movement is a poster child for bad Internet-based thinking.

Jenny McCarthy's continued ill-informed trumpeting of this nonsense is a menace.

[HuckleB]

73. Exactly.

And her supporters have nothing to offer but added ignorance and pointless one-liners.

[Deep13]

74. marking for future reference. nt

[webDude]

77. Uh, how about just getting the mercury out of the vaccine? There are other...

...ways. That should make both sides happy, unless you just want to BITCH! My God, some of us can get so nasty. Makes you wonder if they get paid by the post or level of viciousness.
In your standard filing there is 45% per cent mercury. I got this from my dentist. Is there not a better way, can we not be OPEN to a better way? We're supposed to be the side that is reasonable.

[Ian David]

79. That's a good idea, but it still wouldn't shut-up the crazies. n/t

[DirkGently]

83. A wise view -- but there IS no mercury in measles vaccine

... which kind of makes it look like the anti-vaccine notion is ... "fact resistant?"


Mumps, measles, and rubella M-M-R-II(Merck & Co, Inc) Free Never contained Thimerosal

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm#t3

[kimmerspixelated]

139. Well, look up what else is in the measles vaccine and get back with us on that.

It's not just mercury and additives one must worry about!

[HuckleB]

177. Prove it.

[jeff47]

134. The mercury is already out of the vaccine

However, that hasn't stopped the anti-vax crowd.

[kimmerspixelated]

138. Great post!

There IS another way, but all the nasties here are the same folks who can't fathom anything out of the Big Pharma spectrum. You talk alternatives and they think you're ignorant and anti-science. Alternative medicine is the wave of the future, so they better get used to it.

[Odin2005]

80. KICK

[HuckleB]

81. You can’t hide in the herd

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3569#more-3569

[cureautismnow]

82. Should immunocompromised children be vaccinated?

If the answer is NO, then what measures are currently in place to insure that no immunocompromised children are indeed vaccinated?

[HuckleB]

84. Are you saying we must have a "perfect" system in place?

If so, until that system is in place, you would you rather leave the immunocompromised further exposed to disease by exposing them to even more unvaccinated children?

:shrug:

http://parentingsolved.typepad.com/parenting_solved/2009/01/offit-vs-sears-anti-vaccine.html

[cureautismnow]

85. No, I'm saying check before you kill or injury an immunocompromised child.

"Replication of vaccine viruses can be potentiated in persons who have immune deficiency disorders. Death related to vaccine-associated measles infection has been reported among severely immunocompromised persons. Therefore, severely immunosuppressed individuals should not be vaccinated with MMR or MMRV vaccines."

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2010/chapter-2/measles.aspx

You have a problem with that? :shrug:

[HuckleB]

86. You're using Travel Vaccination information to discuss immunosuppression issues with children?

Second, what would you have us do that we don't already do?

[cureautismnow]

89. It's from the CDC. You disagree?

Also,

"Replication of vaccine viruses can be prolonged in persons who are immunosuppressed or immunodeficient. Evidence based on case reports has linked measles vaccine virus infection to subsequent death in six severely immunocompromised persons. For this reason, patients who are severely immunocompromised for any reason should not be given MMR vaccine."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/combo-vaccines/mmr/faqs-nipinfo-mmr.htm

Check to make sure the 1 year-olds are not immunocompromised before you jab them. This obviously isn't already done as the 6 dead children above attest.

[HuckleB]

90. The page does not state that the deaths were children. You can't make that assumption.

Again, what would you have doctors do that you think they don't do now? Please don't give a vague answer. Thank you.

[cureautismnow]

93. They WERE immunocompromised children.

The CDC cites:

Institute of Medicine. Measles and mumps vaccines. In: Stratton KR, Howe CJ, Johnston RB,
eds. Adverse events associated with childhood vaccines. Evidence bearing on causality. The National Academies Press. 1994.

search at http://www.nap.edu to read the whole paper. The six dead from MMR were children.

As for what doctors can do, the paper below reveals what the doctors should have done before they jabbed this immunocompromised child with the mmr, which eventually killed him.

"We report a case of measles inclusion-body encephalitis (MIBE) occurring in an apparently healthy 21-month-old boy 8.5 months after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. He had no prior evidence of immune deficiency and no history of measles exposure or clinical disease. During hospitalization, a primary immunodeficiency characterized by a profoundly depressed CD8 cell count and dysgammaglobulinemia was demonstrated. A brain biopsy revealed histopathologic features consistent with MIBE, and measles antigens were detected by immunohistochemical staining. Electron microscopy revealed inclusions characteristic of paramyxovirus nucleocapsids within neurons, oligodendroglia, and astrocytes.

The presence of measles virus in the brain tissue was confirmed by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. The nucleotide sequence in the nucleoprotein and fusion gene regions was identical to that of the Moraten and Schwarz vaccine strains; the fusion gene differed from known genotype A wild-type viruses."

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4461020

I answered your question. Now answer mine. The CDC says an immunocompromised child should not be vaccinated with the mmr vaccine. Do you agree? Yes or no. Please don't evade the question. Thank you.

[HuckleB]

94. And more of the usual games.

You tell me to search for something that you could link to, if you had actually seen it. (Sorry, not playing that game.)

You offer one case history, and that's it. (That's not going do it. Heck, six isn't going to do it.)

And, no, you did not answer my question. (Not in any way, shape or form.)

You are now officially playing games. Please stop. Answer the question. (Please.)

Perhaps this pdf will be of help:

www.rcpch.ac.uk/doc.aspx?id_Resource=1768

[cureautismnow]

97. YOU didn't answer my question. Again. Merck also answers your question again.

"Approach to the Patient With Suspected Immunodeficiency

"The Merck Manual Minute

Immunodeficiency typically manifests as recurrent infections. However, more likely causes of recurrent infections in children are repeated exposures to infection at day care or school (infants and children may normally have up to 10 respiratory infections/yr), and more likely causes in children and adults are inadequate duration of antibiotic treatment, resistant organisms, and other disorders that predispose to infection (eg, congenital heart defects, allergic rhinitis, ureteral or urethral stenosis, immotile cilia syndrome, asthma, cystic fibrosis, severe dermatitis).

Immunodeficiency should be suspected when recurrent infections are the following:

*
Severe
*
Complicated
*
In multiple locations
*
Resistant to treatment
*
Caused by unusual organisms

Initially, infections due to immunodeficiency are typically upper and lower respiratory tract infections (eg, sinusitis, bronchitis, pneumonia) and gastroenteritis, but they may be serious bacterial infections (eg, meningitis, sepsis).

Immunodeficiency should also be suspected in infants or young children with chronic diarrhea and failure to thrive, especially when the diarrhea is caused by unusual viruses (eg, adenovirus) or fungi (eg, Cryptosporidium sp). Other signs include skin lesions (eg, eczema, warts, abscesses, pyoderma, alopecia), oral or esophageal thrush, oral ulcers, and periodontitis."

"Evaluation

History and physical examination are helpful but must be supplemented by immune function testing."

etc. Read the link to find out more of what doctors should be doing, but aren't.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec13/ch164/ch164b.html#sec13-ch164-ch164b-130

You please quit playing games and answer the simple yes or no question: Do you think an immunocompromised child should be vaccinated with the mmr? Thank you.

[HuckleB]

99. I'm not playing games.

I'm waiting for you to stop.

Again, I will ask.

What type of immune function testing should be added to regular practice?

[cureautismnow]

100. YOU won't answer the question. That is playing games.

Let me spoon-feed you. Merck says,"Initial screening tests should include

*
CBC with manual differential
*
Quantitative Ig measurements
*
Antibody titers
*
Skin testing for delayed hypersensitivity"

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec13/ch164/ch164b.html#sec13-ch164-ch164b-130

Got it?

Now, yet again, answer the question: Should an immunocompromised child receive the mmr jab? Yes or no? My autistic child can't answer a simple yes or no question. Can you?

[HuckleB]

102. Your question is nothing but playing games.

I'm asking you to get to the bottom line. That's not spoon feeding. That's me asking you to show some intellectual honesty.

Now, are you saying that Merck's recommendation are different from normal practice, and if so, why are they different? If you don't know, why have you claimed to know in past posts?

[cureautismnow]

103. YOU show intellectual honesty and answer my question.

The CDC says no to the question. They weren't "playing games" by answering no. Why do you evade? Cognitive dissonance?

[HuckleB]

104. I've already made it clear that I won't play games.

And I've made it clear that, as you know, your question is for the sake of playing a game rather than getting to an honest discussion.

It's clear that you don't want to have an honest discussion. I'm not going to waste my time further.

[cureautismnow]

106. Typical. Evasive to the end.

You want honest discussion and yet you can't say, "Yes, I agree with the CDC, but herd mentality trumps all and besides, nothing's perfect!" ... or some other lame qualifier.

Or "No, I don't agree with the CDC - all kids even immunocompromised kids should receive the mmr. Jab them all because it's too expensive and too invasive to test, it's such a small percentage of children anyway, etc. "

Even a simple "No - n/t" or "Yes - n/t" would have sufficed.

Instead, you evaded 7 or 8 times. Why did you even jump into a sub-thread if you never had any intention of truthfully answering the question? THAT is playing a game.

At any rate, I sincerely hope you can work your vaccine-associated cognitive dissonance out in time.

Cheers.

[jeff47]

136. Um....their parents and doctors?

The parents and doctors of immunocompromised children don't get them vaccinated. Those children rely on herd immunity to avoid these diseases.

Herd immunity that is currently being eliminated by the anti-vax crowd.

[truedelphi]

105. Can I ask a question?

Since the majority of children in the US ARE vaccinated for the measles, how is it that one single unvaccinated child can cause cause the risk of health loss to all the others?
Does this event not prove that measles vaccinations are ineffective?

[HuckleB]

108. Not so much all the others.

But non-vaccination seems to be occurring in pockets. Thus, one child can spread it. Further, vaccines are not 100 percent effective. That doesn't mean they're not worthwhile. It just means they are not perfect.

I'm struggling to see how you would come to the conclusion that they are ineffective.

[jeff47]

137. Because anti-vax activists convince their friends not to vaccinate their kids

Which results in a pool of people in close contact who are not vaccinated, which results in the rapid spread of the relevant diseases when one of them happens to get exposed.

The vaccinated children don't get sick.

[defendandprotect]

117. So, if vaccinations prevent measles . . . why weren't those vaccinated immune?

Meanwhile, that certainly isn't an average case of measles!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

124. Did you read the article? Several of the children were TOO YOUNG to be vaccinated.

The children he infected were at his school where there is a high percentage of children who are not vaccinated because their parents don't believe in it.

[defendandprotect]

140. No . . . I didn't read the article . . . I got captured by the photo . . .

but I will look at it now --

A lot of this is like holding us all as terrorists re airports, etc. because

one or two people in a million might actually be a terrorist.

[defendandprotect]

146. So what's going on in Switzerland with vaccines that this child picked it up there?

are they vaccinating as we are?

Or are they doing something more sensible?

We don't exactly find out here what happened to the boy infected -- how ill he might

have been? What difference how many vaccinated children were exposed -- the vaccines

allegedly protect them?

And what are we saying of the 11 unvaccinated? Only three were babies who had not yet

been vaccinated. What of the other 8? Were they, as he was, purposefully unvaccinated?

Or were the vaccinations faulty?

This vaccination business is getting to be like the MIC . . . there's no escaping it unless

we change the basic psychology behind the drive to vaccinate everyone.

Before the introduction of the measles vaccine in 1963, as many as 500 children died each year from the measles, and nearly 50,000 were hospitalized annually in the United States because of the virus, according to background information in the report.

What we need to do is study why some children come thru the measles with no problems and why

others have such serious problems. We need more preventive medicine in America.

Like any other virus, they mutate. Are vaccinations causing more serious strains of measles?


In recent years, however, the virus has resurged as many parents choose not to vaccinate their children, often because of fears about serious side effects. In fact, a recent study from the University of Michigan found that even among those who do vaccinate, more than half are concerned about serious side effects. Many of these fears stem a reported link between the MMR vaccine and autism. This link has been disproved in numerous studies, however.

Nothing has been disproved about vacciantions and autism. And to suggest something like that

is deceptive in itself.

Again -- there is every possibility that vaccinating children will create problems in the next

generations -- and will create even stronger viruses of every kind.

What we need are studies to determine what makes some children healthier and more resistant to

childhood illness -- and less pharma "miracles" which we really don't know very much about in

the long run.

TB is another interesting virus which can very easily be passed from person to person --

and fairly easily prevented. Bush, Sr. cut funding for the programs -- sorry, I couldn't find

anything specific to that in the time I have right now.

However, there is no vaccine -- if there was a vaccine you would see huge interest in this --


Meanwhile, men are spitting all over our streets -- in a filthy fad that began decades ago

with baseball players. It's a filthy, disease spreading habit.

You can contract TB simply by sitting next to a person with TB for 10 minutes or so -

talking with them.

No interest in all of this, however.

Logic, good sense and healthful practices don't make money for Big Pharma --





http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=TB+is+a+virus+--&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-yie8

[jeff47]

156. Get out of the biology realm now.

You know nothing of what you are talking about, and merely make yourself look more the fool.

"So what's going on in Switzerland with vaccines that this child picked it up there?"

The same thing as in the US. Anti-vax nutjobs are refusing to vaccinate their kids. Unvaccinated kids get sick, and can pass on the disease to other unvaccinated people.

"And what are we saying of the 11 unvaccinated? Only three were babies who had not yet
been vaccinated. What of the other 8? Were they, as he was, purposefully unvaccinated?"

Most likely, yes. Vaccines have an extremely low failure rate (way less than 1%). Nothing in biology is 100%. The idea is that if enough people receive vaccinations and the vaccine 'sticks' herd immunity will protect those few where the vaccine doesn't 'stick', and those few who can not be vaccinated due to illness, age or allergies.

Anti-vaxers break down that herd immunity.

"What we need to do is study why some children come thru the measles with no problems and why others have such serious problems."

Because nothing in biology is 100%. Even Ebola only has a 97% fatality rate.

"Like any other virus, they mutate. Are vaccinations causing more serious strains of measles?"

No.

Fast mutating viruses like HIV and flu are 'error prone'. Their enzymes tend to make mistakes when building new virus. Those mistakes are the new mutations.

The enzymes in measles are not error prone. They are very accurate, and thus mutations arise extremely slowly. About as quickly as mutations arise in humans.

"Nothing has been disproved about vacciantions and autism."

Yes, something has been proven. The supposed cause of autism was REMOVED from vaccines, yet autism rates continue to rise. Studies have shown no increase in autism among vaccinated children vs unvaccinated children.

In addition, the MMR vaccine that has received the majority of the blame from the anti-vax crowd has been around for decades, yet the spike in autism only happened recently...how come those of us who got the MMR vaccine in the 80's didn't show a huge spike in autism if the MMR vaccine cause autism?

You know what has changed? When I was a kid, we were just "nerds", "geeks", or any other term to describe being socially awkward. Now doctors say we have "Asperger's Syndrome" and we are labeled autistic...resulting in a significant rise in autism rates.

A label brings better treatment, but it also allows counting of those affixed with the label.

"Again -- there is every possibility that vaccinating children will create problems in the next
generations -- and will create even stronger viruses of every kind."

Wrong. Vaccines like MMR work because the relevant viruses are highly conserved - they mutate very, very, very slowly. That's why it's been the same vaccine for decades.

"What we need are studies to determine what makes some children healthier and more resistant to childhood illness"

Chance. Our immune systems are 100% based on chance. When we get infected with something, we randomly throw together antibodies until we find one that sticks to the invader.

I'm not being figurative here - we literally produce millions of different B cells, each creating a random antibody, until we find one that sticks. Then we make millions of copies of that specific B cell. So if a person gets lucky, they will stumble upon an effective antibody in the first thousand combinations. Since that person discovered the correct antibody faster, they'll have a milder case of the disease.

This is why you can have a cold 'go around' but happen to never catch it. You did catch it. You just found the antibody quickly and fought it off before you noticed any symptoms.

Vaccines work because we sometimes store the B cells that were used to fight off an infection. Because those B cells already exist, the next time we are infected with the same thing, we will discover the correct antibody very quickly and fight off the infection before we notice any symptoms.

"and less pharma "miracles" which we really don't know very much about in the long run."

Vaccines are not new. We do know what will happen in the long run, because we already lived in the long run. The long run happened about 20 years ago. We've been vaccinating specifically against measles for about 50 years now.

"TB is another interesting virus"

Wrong. https://health.google.com/health/ref/Pulmonary+tuberculosis
TB is caused by bacteria, and thus treated with antibiotics.

"Meanwhile, men are spitting all over our streets -- in a filthy fad that began decades ago with baseball players. It's a filthy, disease spreading habit."

Wrong. We spend a lot of time touching our noses and mouths. We then touch a lot of other things in our environment. That spreads WAY more disease than spitting.

Remember, the bug has to get into your body somehow. If someone spits on the street, the bug can't get into your body. On the other hand, if they sneeze on their hand and then open a door, the following people who open the door are very likely to rub their noses or mouths sometime before washing their hands, resulting in infection.

"Logic, good sense and healthful practices don't make money for Big Pharma --"

You know what else doesn't make money for Big Pharma? Vaccines. They're cheap, and a single treatment isn't much medicine. They'd much rather introduce a medicine that treats the symptoms of measles, so that lots of people have to buy lots of the drug.

[defendandprotect]

168. So - people all over the world are refusing to have their children vaccinated . . .

"So what's going on in Switzerland with vaccines that this child picked it up there?"

The same thing as in the US. Anti-vax nutjobs are refusing to vaccinate their kids. Unvaccinated kids get sick, and can pass on the disease to other unvaccinated people.

Right . . . parents with concern for their children are "nutjobs" -- and evidently half of those

very seriously concerned are still having their children vaccinated!

Obviously, if I want to know what's going on in Switzerland with vaccines, the thing to do is

look up the info myself!



"And what are we saying of the 11 unvaccinated? Only three were babies who had not yet
been vaccinated. What of the other 8? Were they, as he was, purposefully unvaccinated?"

Most likely, yes. Vaccines have an extremely low failure rate (way less than 1%). Nothing in biology is 100%. The idea is that if enough people receive vaccinations and the vaccine 'sticks' herd immunity will protect those few where the vaccine doesn't 'stick', and those few who can not be vaccinated due to illness, age or allergies.

Anti-vaxers break down that herd immunity.


I would guess that more and more parents are going to begin to refuse to do potential harm to

their own child in order to protect another child from a case of the measles!!

The better pathway would be to discover why so many children no serious problems with measles?

Rather than playing the game of causing EVERYONE, EVERY CHILD, EVERY PARENT to succumb to this

insane idea of vaccinating the "herd" . . !! This isn't so much "herd immunity" as "herd

insanity." Also, we note that there are many who CANNOT BE VACCINATED due to illness, age or

allergies. Well, looks to me like right there your 'HERD IMMUNITY' is automatically violated!!

What a farce!!



"What we need to do is study why some children come thru the measles with no problems and why others have such serious problems."

Because nothing in biology is 100%. Even Ebola only has a 97% fatality rate.


And you're suggesting that measles has a 97% fatality rate????

Not pushing fear-based crap by any chance, are you?

Rather ...

Because some children have better diets, better living conditions, better basic health --

perhaps from breastfeeding which supplies natural immunities?! And parents who better

understand keeping a child healthy?


"Like any other virus, they mutate. Are vaccinations causing more serious strains of measles?"

No.

Fast mutating viruses like HIV and flu are 'error prone'. Their enzymes tend to make mistakes when building new virus. Those mistakes are the new mutations.

The enzymes in measles are not error prone. They are very accurate, and thus mutations arise extremely slowly. About as quickly as mutations arise in humans.

So that's your guarantee to the world, eh? LOL

Viruses mutate in an effort to penetrate -- not only humans but other living animals, cells . . .

eventually.

Nor are you accounting for the effect of vaccinations on measles -- first generation, second

generation, etal.





"Nothing has been disproved about vaccinations and autism."

Yes, something has been proven. The supposed cause of autism was REMOVED from vaccines, yet autism rates continue to rise. Studies have shown no increase in autism among vaccinated children vs unvaccinated children.

In addition, the MMR vaccine that has received the majority of the blame from the anti-vax crowd has been around for decades, yet the spike in autism only happened recently...how come those of us who got the MMR vaccine in the 80's didn't show a huge spike in autism if the MMR vaccine cause autism?


A label brings better treatment, but it also allows counting of those affixed with the label.

No one is convinced by this hype -- parents know what is going on with their children better

than doctors do. The alleged removal, is alleged --

However, the extreme number of vaccinations are also a threat to the health of the child.

And parents are limiting those batteries of hits on babies.

The SPIKE in autism follows the use of vaccinations!

and I certainly have to single out your last paragraph . . .

You know what has changed? When I was a kid, we were just "nerds", "geeks", or any other term to describe being socially awkward. Now doctors say we have "Asperger's Syndrome" and we are labeled autistic...resulting in a significant rise in autism rates.

for absolute arrogance of ignorance!








"Again -- there is every possibility that vaccinating children will create problems in the next
generations -- and will create even stronger viruses of every kind."

Wrong. Vaccines like MMR work because the relevant viruses are highly conserved - they mutate very, very, very slowly. That's why it's been the same vaccine for decades.

Generations are not "decades" ....

Recall the Native American considering effects on the environment "to the seventh generation"!!

Nor is there sufficient assurance from any wing of medicine -- leave alone an individual --

to assure or guarantee any positive outcome over time!


"What we need are studies to determine what makes some children healthier and more resistant to childhood illness"

Chance. Our immune systems are 100% based on chance. When we get infected with something, we randomly throw together antibodies until we find one that sticks to the invader.

I'm not being figurative here - we literally produce millions of different B cells, each creating a random antibody, until we find one that sticks. Then we make millions of copies of that specific B cell. So if a person gets lucky, they will stumble upon an effective antibody in the first thousand combinations. Since that person discovered the correct antibody faster, they'll have a milder case of the disease.

This is why you can have a cold 'go around' but happen to never catch it. You did catch it. You just found the antibody quickly and fought it off before you noticed any symptoms.

Vaccines work because we sometimes store the B cells that were used to fight off an infection. Because those B cells already exist, the next time we are infected with the same thing, we will discover the correct antibody very quickly and fight off the infection before we notice any symptoms.


Studying the healthy should be a regular avenue for those practicing medicine -- but it is rarely

done. Your response is nonsense . . . natural immunities come with breast feeding children and

we haven't been doing that for generations!


"and less pharma "miracles" which we really don't know very much about in the long run."

Vaccines are not new. We do know what will happen in the long run, because we already lived in the long run. The long run happened about 20 years ago. We've been vaccinating specifically against measles for about 50 years now.

I don't know who you are suggesting "WE" is . . . ??

However, when you see them again, tell them that vaccines are indeed NEW!

Nor do you have the faintest idea what will happen in the future from these vaccines; sad to say!

The effects of Global Warming have a 50 year dealy! Mad Cow 20 years or more!

AIDS . . . ? HIV . . . ?

Vaccines are NEW . . . natural immunity via BREASTFEEDING is OLD . . .

And, the questions remain re what effects vaccinations will have in the seventh genertion!



"TB is another interesting virus"

Wrong. https://health.google.com/health/ref/Pulmonary+tubercul...
TB is caused by bacteria, and thus treated with antibiotics.

search resultsTB Fact Sheet
Tuberculosis is spread from person to person through the air. ... TB is spread most easily in closed spaces over a long period of time. Even if someone becomes infected with ...
cityoflaredo.com/health/News/.../TB Fact Sheet.htm - Cached

TB is spread thru the air --



"Meanwhile, men are spitting all over our streets -- in a filthy fad that began decades ago with baseball players. It's a filthy, disease spreading habit."

Wrong. We spend a lot of time touching our noses and mouths. We then touch a lot of other things in our environment. That spreads WAY more disease than spitting.

Remember, the bug has to get into your body somehow. If someone spits on the street, the bug can't get into your body. On the other hand, if they sneeze on their hand and then open a door, the following people who open the door are very likely to rub their noses or mouths sometime before washing their hands, resulting in infection.

Again, TB moves in the air -- just talking with a person for 15 mins or less can cause an infection.

Remember, there used to be a ban on spitting in the streets because it spreads disease.



"Logic, good sense and healthful practices don't make money for Big Pharma --"

You know what else doesn't make money for Big Pharma? Vaccines. They're cheap, and a single treatment isn't much medicine. They'd much rather introduce a medicine that treats the symptoms of measles, so that lots of people have to buy lots of the drug.

Nothing that comes from Big Pharma is cheap! Especially not in America.

You don't work for the medical industry by any chance, do you?

Quite some hype!


The responses are sad -- and I presume they aren't really yours -- but picking up this much

arrogance in your responses, IMO, makes clear what is really wrong with our "practice of

medicine" in America.

[jeff47]

183. Yet more wrong.

"Right . . . parents with concern for their children are "nutjobs" -- and evidently half of those
very seriously concerned are still having their children vaccinated!"

There are parents in several parts of the world that have their daughters "circumcised". That doesn't make the practice a good idea.

"I would guess that more and more parents are going to begin to refuse to do potential harm to
their own child in order to protect another child from a case of the measles!!"

Actually, they're refusing to protect their own child out of fear and lack of understanding.

"The better pathway would be to discover why so many children no serious problems with measles?"

We already know this, as I already said in my earlier reply. The fact that you do not understand doesn't mean nobody understands.

"Also, we note that there are many who CANNOT BE VACCINATED due to illness, age or allergies. Well, looks to me like right there your 'HERD IMMUNITY' is automatically violated!!"

Actually, you just demonstrated you do not understand the concept of herd immunity.

Vaccination doesn't have to be 100% to be effective. It just has to be close. (The closeness required depends on the particular disease).

If almost everyone is vaccinated, nobody is spreading the disease - there's too few unvaccinated people to spread it around. The unvaccinated have to come into contact with someone who has the disease. Since virtually everyone is vaccinated, they can not come into contact with someone with the disease. That is herd immunity.

"And you're suggesting that measles has a 97% fatality rate????"

My point, which you failed to grasp, is that nothing in biology is 100%. Nothing. The most severe virus we know of, Ebola, can't kill 100% of it's victims.

"perhaps from breastfeeding which supplies natural immunities?!"

Antibodies from breast milk don't last long in the baby, and after the first 6 months the baby will no longer use the mother's antibodies - they'll be digested instead. Even if that wasn't the case, mom's antibodies can't help a 5-year-old who's no longer breast feeding.

"So that's your guarantee to the world, eh? LOL"

Yep. See, I've actually experimented on them. In fact, I did a lot of genetic engineering back in my college days for my degree. (My career drifted in another direction).

Again, the fact that you do not understand something doesn't mean that nobody understands.

"Viruses mutate in an effort to penetrate"

Viruses are not anthropomorphic. They can't say to themselves, "Oh crap, this isn't working. Let's try mutating!!". They have no say in the matter, they mutate at random. But since we understand how their enzymes work, we know how often that random occurrence will be.

"Nor are you accounting for the effect of vaccinations on measles -- first generation, second generation, etal."

Well, we're currently on generation 4 or 5 of humans that have been vaccinated for measles. So far, no new measles strains that avoid the vaccine.

"No one is convinced by this hype -- parents know what is going on with their children better than doctors do."

Um...no. Most parents have your complete lack of understanding about biology, so they pull together some random threads and decree "This is what's going on with my child!!!". Unfortunately, the random bits they chose don't always fit together. Such as attempting to link vaccines to autism.

"The alleged removal, is alleged --"

You know, there exists a great deal of machinery that can determine the chemical composition of stuff. Including vaccines. Vaccines that are sold to almost anyone who pays for 'em. Are you now going to claim that "big pharma" is secretly including mercury despite the fact that it would be easily detected by a mass spectrometer? And discovery of such "contaminants" would cause the company very big issues with the FDA, as well as their customers?

See, it's not one company that makes the vaccines. It's several. Wouldn't they want to eliminate their competition by proving their competition is 'tainted'?

"However, the extreme number of vaccinations are also a threat to the health of the child."

Many studies prove this is false. Provide one that does, and you win not only a Nobel prize, but a permanent place next to Watson and Crick in every biology book written from now on. Yet nobody's managed to prove it using a properly-designed study. And it would be incredibly easy to prove if there was such a link - just follow 20 children of anti-vax nutjobs and 20 children of sane parents.

"for absolute arrogance of ignorance!"

No, fact. When I was a child, there was no disease named "Asperger's Syndrome". As such, I could not have been diagnosed with it. And as such, your stats of kids diagnosed with autism in the 1980s are missing people like me.

The only stat we have is the rate of diagnosis of autism in chidren. And there's two possible reasons it's going up: 1) the actual number of cases is rising, or 2) the rate of diagnosis is rising (fewer cases are undiagnosed like mine).

"Generations are not "decades" ...."

You are correct. Generations are multiple decades, since most people don't start having children until after age 20.

"Nor is there sufficient assurance from any wing of medicine -- leave alone an individual -- to assure or guarantee any positive outcome over time!"

Not to you, because you don't understand several basic elements of biology.

"Recall the Native American considering effects on the environment "to the seventh generation"!!"

Native Americans didn't have our understanding of biology. They also had children far younger than we do. 7 generations where 13-year-olds have children is about 4 generations where 23-year-olds have children.

"Studying the healthy should be a regular avenue for those practicing medicine -- but it is rarely"

That's because we study such thing in _biology_.

"Your response is nonsense . . . natural immunities come with breast feeding children and we haven't been doing that for generations!"

Wrong again. Most mothers in the last 20 years have breast fed. And as mentioned above, mom's antibodies are no longer effective after about 6 months, and your mechanism can't protect 5-year-olds because they don't breast feed.

What I described is one of the more basic parts of the immune response. If you do not understand how that works, you can not possibly understand vaccination.

"I don't know who you are suggesting "WE" is . . . ??"

Humans.

"However, when you see them again, tell them that vaccines are indeed NEW!"

The MMR vaccine was introduced in the US in 1971. That is not NEW!!!

And the MMR vaccine is among the newer vaccines.

"The effects of Global Warming have a 50 year dealy!"

Only if you don't use the right measuring equipment.

"Mad Cow 20 years or more!"

Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopathy
4 year incubation period.

"AIDS . . . ? HIV . . . ?"

Are older than vaccines. HIV is a mutation of Simian Immunodeficiency Virus, and it's error-prone enzymes caused it to mutate such that it can infect humans. However Africa's medical care leaves much to be desired, and HIV wasn't clinically studied until 1981.

"TB is spread thru the air -- "

Which has nothing to do with it's status as a bacteria. Lots of bacterial diseases are spread through the air. Another bacterial disease that is spread through the air is Legionnaire's disease. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionaire's_disease

In fact, it's generally easier for bacterial diseases to be spread through the air because most bacteria are hardier than most virii.

"Remember, there used to be a ban on spitting in the streets because it spreads disease."

There used to also be a ban on midwives because they were witches. Just because a ban exists doesn't mean the ban has any basis in fact.

"You don't work for the medical industry by any chance, do you?"

Nope. I got my degree in microbiology and then my career drifted in another direction. Developing computer software, if you must know.

"The responses are sad -- and I presume they aren't really yours -"

Actually, I'm the one here who understands the science, and have performed experiments that confirm what I have said (HIV's enzymes are useful in genetic engineering).

You, on the other hand, have pieced together a story you find interesting. Unfortunately, interesting stories do not describe how the world works.

[Confusious]

210. Nice try

But you're talking to the emperor straw-man, as evidenced by:

Right . . . parents with concern for their children are "nutjobs"

And you're suggesting that measles has a 97% fatality rate


You'd get farther using a jello tipped drill on a carbon steel wall.

[SidDithers]

197. Hahahahaha....

"TB is another interesting virus"

Wrong. https://health.google.com/health/ref/Pulmonary+tubercul ...
TB is caused by bacteria, and thus treated with antibiotics.

search resultsTB Fact Sheet
Tuberculosis is spread from person to person through the air. ... TB is spread most easily in closed spaces over a long period of time. Even if someone becomes infected with ...
cityoflaredo.com/health/News/.../TB Fact Sheet.htm - Cached

TB is spread thru the air --

Please tell me that you're not saying TB is a virus because it's spread through the air.

You do know the difference between a virus and an bacteria, don't you?

Sid

[PreacherCasey]

147. The voice of reason. Each human on Earth is sovereign & must make his/her own medical decisions.

It is not possible for "the governement" to make the world "safe" for us, nor should we want them to if they could.

If you want the shot, feel free. However, the government must not be allowed to force medical procedures upon people, nor make life and death decisions for us. It will not stop with mandatory vaccinations. It will progress to One-Child policies, and probably further. The chorus has already begun singing the praises of China's One-Child policy.

From: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2314438

"The "inconvenient truth" overhanging the UN's Copenhagen conference is not that the climate is warming or cooling, but that humans are overpopulating the world.

A planetary law, such as China's one-child policy, is the only way to reverse the disastrous global birthrate currently, which is one million births every four days.

The world's other species, vegetation, resources, oceans, arable land, water supplies and atmosphere are being destroyed and pushed out of existence as a result of humanity's soaring reproduction rate."

[defendandprotect]

149. Agree . . . medicine has to be between families and the doctor...no government ...

Mandatory vaccinations are frightening enough . . .

considering the problems we've already seen with them -- bad batches --

deaths, etal.

And, IMO, autism is certainly traceable to these vaccines/batteries given to children.


Also agree with you re overpopulation -- another issue that elites/capitalism want ignored

because it works for them. In fact, the Pope before this one was demanding that the Italian

government "make Italian women have more children"!! He actually went before the Italian

government to say that. Was it love of children? No -- he was demanding labor for expansion!


If overpopulation was addressed as it was being done in the 1960's and 1970's, then people

IMO would willingly limit the number of children. We also continue to hold hetereosexual

pairings in esteem -- and large families! That needs to change.

The world's other species, vegetation, resources, oceans, arable land, water supplies and atmosphere are being destroyed and pushed out of existence as a result of humanity's soaring reproduction rate."

Consequence of the suicidal concepts of patriarchy -- "the bird with one wing" -- and its

underpinning, organized patriarchal religion -- and its economic system, capitalism, based on

exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even other human beings according

to various myths of inferiority.





:)

[PreacherCasey]

150. I'm with you. We've been thrown overboard a LONG time ago by those who think us uncapable of

handling our own affairs as a country, and really, as a species. The drive isn't to educate people so humanity may rise or fall together, but instead to foster a system of INTERDEPENDENCE where ruling elites make our decisions for us.

People who go for this type of thing fall right into the elite's trap IMO. The Rep/Dem groupthink must come to an end sooner rather than later.

All the best to you and your family. :toast:

[defendandprotect]

169. Agree . . .

:)

[kurtzapril4]

158. How about this...defective genetics cause autism.

I believe a genetic marker was found for autism a few years ago?

http://www.usnews.com/health/family-health/articles/2009/04/28/what-the-autism-gene-finding-means-for-parents.html

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04/30/Scientists-find-new-autism-gene-variant/UPI-31611241115483/



And, IMO, autism is certainly traceable to these vaccines/batteries given to children

Please. I'd be willing to say that 95% + of us older people had those vaccines? How come 95% + of us aren't autistic?

I guess it's a lot easier to blame autism on a vaccine than it is to accept the fact that there's some kind of hiccup in one's genetic make-up.

[defendandprotect]

159. Right -- and there will soon be a genetic link to poverty--!!!

Wake up!!

There is no genetic link -- this disease has gone from nothing to immense proportions.

ALL coinciding with the rise of the vaccines.


I guess you really don't realize it, but OLDER persons weren't given all of these vaccinations --

and certainly not all at one time in huge batteries!

[jeff47]

164. There is a genetic link to poverty

If your closest genetic relatives (aka parents) are poor, you are far more likely to be poor.

[defendandprotect]

170. Oops! You're so right . . . !!! Poverty breeds poverty -- !!

:evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

166. Oh brother.

:eyes:

Vaccines do not cause autism!
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/12/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism/

Evidence Suggests Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514585

Again, Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism
http://www.scientificblogging.com/rationally_speaking/again_vaccines_do_not_cause_autism

Fear Not: Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism
http://www.theness.com/fear-not-vaccines-do-not-cause-autism/

Mercury in vaccines as a cause of autism and autism spectrum disorders (ASDs): A failed hypothesis
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14

Vaccines do not cause autism
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rationally-speaking/200906/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism

Journal Retracts 1998 Paper Linking Autism to Vaccines
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/health/research/03lancet.html

A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/347/19/1477

VACCINES. DO. NOT. CAUSE. AUTISM.

:

[jeff47]

157. You are not just making the decision for yourself

You are also making the decision for everyone you come in contact with. If you vaccinate, you are not a threat.

If you don't, you are a threat to the people who want to, but can't be vaccinated (ex. allergy, age or immune deficiency).

[defendandprotect]

160. That's nonsense . . . the government is making the decision for everyone . . .

versus studying viruses and understanding what is increasinging them --

and they are increasing -- certainly many viruses much more dangerous than

measles!!

Viruses mutate -- that's something that also has to be understood and I see

little sign of that.

[jeff47]

162. Go read my reply up-thread

#156.

You are very, very wrong about some basic biology.

If you choose not to vaccinate your children, you are putting other people's children at risk.

You do not have the right to risk their children through disease, just like you don't have the right to risk their children by driving 80mph through a school zone.

[defendandprotect]

171. We can be reaching a point where the children being vaccinated are in danger ...

how many parents are going to put their own child in danger to protect

some one else's child?

What you're making clear is more and more parents are making the decision to

NOT vaccinate.

Driving 80mph thru a school zone has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion . . .

except as a distraction from reality! Nice try!

:eyes:

[HuckleB]

173. And what does your post have to do with reality?

Other than the reality that the fear you are working so hard to spread actually cons some parents into putting their kids at risk by avoiding vaccinations?

Oh, I guess that is the reality you want.

:argh:

[jeff47]

184. Actually, they're protecting their own children

But you still don't understand enough about biology to participate in this discussion in any meaningful way.

[defendandprotect]

190. Hardly -- they're putting their own children at risk -- life threatening risk . . .

whereas measles is a fairly normal situation - childhood disease most survive.

And, these parents are walking away from the idea that all have to be "herded"

for the sake of a few.

Rather, let's concentrate on the environment and lifestyles which effect the

severity of childhood diseases.

The number of children now afflicted with Autism is horrific -- and NO ONE

individual can be accountable to any child for this destruction.

Nor can "science" be accountable for the destruction it causes.

Science is merely and only observation of nature --

until some idiot wants to make an atomic weapon!

Obviously, we need a change in the way scientists are trained and the way they think --

a change in the value system.

[HuckleB]

202. WOW!

450 deaths a year, just in the US, no longer occur because of the vaccine. And that doesn't address the long-term complications some survivors must face.

What do you not understand about that?

[HuckleB]

179. The slippery slope is an excuse that can be used against any possible proposal.

It is not a valid argument.

[skepticscott]

188. So you'd be perfectly fine with things

if people with multiple drug resistant TB decided that medical treatment was not their cup of tea, and refused to seek treatment, refused quarantine and simply walked around infecting hundreds of other people?

And I think most of the children who have not died of whopping cough, diphtheria, smallpox and a whole host of other diseases this century, as a result of government mandated vaccinations, would disagree with you about their lives being safer.

One person is not a chorus, btw. Especially when they are just a talking head with no power to implement policy. How many government officials can you cite that are advocating a One-Child policy for their countries?

[Confusious]

211. When it comes to vaccines

Your medical decisions affect me and mine. And if you're stupid enough not to get them, then you should be denied a place in society.

I've returned to school and had to get another MMR shot at 40, or else I couldn't register for classes. I fully support that.

[HuckleB]

167. Your "metaphor" is completely ludicrous.

[truedelphi]

151. I asked pretty much the same thing, just upthread of you, & got the usual

Snide and knowing it all answers.

[HuckleB]

153. Talk about snide.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

161. Yes -- and all fear-based responses . . .

:)

[jeff47]

163. No, science based

We have literally decades of science showing us how vaccines work, how viruses work, how bacteria work, how diseases work, what the short-term and long-term effects are.

You have fear that we might have missed something, and thus call everything into question.

Oh, and btw...your sig? Also wrong. Prehistoric man ate meat. Just like lots of other monkeys do. Baboons are particularly adept at catching Gazelles when hungry.

[defendandprotect]

172. You have nothing ... which is quite obvious from the responses ...

we have natural immunities which have long been ignored by "science" --

and Big Pharma -- and those "practicing" medicine!

Hit your library and read about the viruses and super viruses coming our way --

Only the truly arrogant ignore human error --

You MIGHT have missed something! Wow!!

So you've an interest in medicine and animal-eating -- rather oxymoronic!!

And heavy into the propaganda of white male history that suggests humans are violent --

Well, you need some way to keep wars going, don't you?


Wow . . . if your intention here was to instill any confidence, IMO, you've done just

the opposite!

Bye --

[HuckleB]

175. White male history? Wars?

WOW!

I've seen some red herring posts in my time, but this one takes the cake.

[jeff47]

185. Hey look! More factual errors! What a suprise!

"we have natural immunities which have long been ignored by "science" -- "

Actually, science studied those immunities to come up with vaccines.

Vaccines are a method to train our natural immune system to better fight diseases. Much like weight lifting trains our natural muscles to better lift heavy objects and cardiovascular exercise trains our hearts and lungs to do their natural jobs more effectively.

"Hit your library and read about the viruses and super viruses coming our way -- "

Actually, the biology stuff I read isn't in the library, it's in scientific journals. It hasn't been turned into library books yet.

As for the supposed authority of such books, need I remind you of titles such as "Dow 30,000" or Sara Palin's book?

Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true.

"And heavy into the propaganda of white male history that suggests humans are violent --"

Well, we've found prehistoric spears and arrows. If they weren't using them for hunting, which is what I claim, what were they using these weapons for?

But again, your lack of biology knowledge is running you into more trouble. The reason I can be absolutely sure prehistoric humans ate meat is we don't make every amino acid that we need to survive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
This is why vegetarians have to make sure they get enough protein - so that they get the amino acids they can't make themselves.

ALL herbivores produce all of the amino acids. Cows, horses, even Silverback gorillas. We do not.

Prehistoric humans didn't have the option to plant soybeans for their protein. They didn't have the option to plant anything, since agriculture hadn't been invented yet. They had to rely on what foods they could find. And there's not a lot of high-protein plants (otherwise, vegetarians would have no protein issue).

And there's only 1 reliable source of protein for prehistoric humans - meat.

(Of course, there's a bunch of other evidence for our evolution as omnivores, but it gets even more technical)

[semillama]

214. Human violence - How about all the CUT MARKS on prehistoric bones

I agree with you on the evolution of humans as omnivores. To claim that humans did not start eating meat until the Bronze Age is to basically ignore the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Scientifically, the idea is even more ludicrous than the flat earth idea, since there's not even any empirical evidence to back it up!

It really appears that a certain poster makes a considerable effort to find out what the actual facts are and then toss them straight into the trash, and stridently uphold whatever the opposite of the facts are. It's getting tiresome.

[Confusious]

212. Tell you what

Get some smallpox, and tell me how those "natural immunities" work for you

[defendandprotect]

174. Now . . who is the "WE" you are speaking of? Who is the "Us" ...??

Are you speaking for yourself as an individual -- ?

Are you requoting what someone else has said -- ??

Or are you suggesting you are an insider in producing vaccines and research -- ???

[HuckleB]

176. And the usual Pharma Shill gambit hits the board.

:puke:

[Confusious]

213. I think I'm going to start counting

how many posts until "big pharma" "big agra" "big such-and-such" "big penis" comes up. If they can't refute the argument, its "big penis" time.


it's getting to be such a joke, and I don't want it to be. They need to be held responsible for their bullshit but if it's a joke, they won't be.

[jeff47]

186. We are those who understand science (nt)

[defendandprotect]

189. And what are your qualifications to under "science" . . .???

And who are you quoting?

[truedelphi]

193. We have ONLY decades of Corporate Controlled scientists

Doing the bidding of the Master Corporations, and altering the results of their research to suit the Corporate Masters..

Novartis has given UC Berkeley some fifty million dollars toward research. Do you really think that any young scientist inside that realm is going to NOT FUDGE the stats on pesticides when Novartis sends out the signals that it wants such data fudged?

And Jonas Salk would be twisting in his grave if he were around to see the deplorable conditions inside the vaccine labs. These places are contaminated with viral and bacterial material, the likes of which would inspire a horror movie.

I am not the only one saying so - The San Francisco Chronicle looked into the situation and instead of doing a one day, one article approach to the problem, ran an entire mini series back in 2000. Then the Bush "de-regulation" crowd got in, and those labs got even worse. So even if slightly improved in the year that Obama has been in office, there is no way in hell I'd be vaccinated here in this country.

[defendandprotect]

194. So true . . . just as capitalism/corporatism has destroyed democracy/people's government...

it destroys everything else it touches --

We have to stop measuring everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

That's why it's so urgent for the nation to move from "for profit" health care --

Nice post!



:)

[truedelphi]

195. Thanks for the compliment.

Did you know that in France they had some sixty nine million shots for the HiNi vaccine program, and only five million French people were willing to submit to that shot?!

This nation really has so closed off the means of discussion, especially as the media is all about providing the news to us as its advertisers want it explained, that most of what people think they know is far from the truth.

[defendandprotect]

198. Completely agree - and didn't know that about France ... !!!

69 million shots ... 5 million takers!

Too many Americans still think our government agencies are working for their protection while, in

reality, they are working to protect these corporations!

Many people still think if anything is really wrong they'll be told because they

have their TVs on!

And especially agree with this . . .

This nation really has so closed off the means of discussion, especially as the media is all about providing the news to us as its advertisers want it explained, that most of what people think they know is far from the truth.

I'd add that medical training seems to short circuit free thought in medical professionals,

training them as robots and sellers of products rather than as thoughtful care providers!!


:)


PS: Presume we've had no final reports on the flu epidemic this year -- ?

[truedelphi]

203. Last year's HiNi flu took some

18,000 lives here in the US. I haven't heard anything related to how many died, overall, from regular flu. (On edit - in any given year, 30,000 people in the USA die from flu and/or its complications.)

I have read a couple of news stories in print that make it sound like they are confused and disappointed that their major flu pandemic didn't pan out.

An early on discussion by a local San Francisco TV station - the Talking Heads were trying to defuse 2009 spring's panic over the swine flu. The hospitals were absolutely jammed with people who thought they were about to die at any moment - and of course, 99.9% of those people had either colds or allergies. And while sitting in the waiting rooms, they increased their chances of contracting the real thing!

So there the Talking Heads were, circa April 2009, explaining that 6 Californians had died from the regular flu, while only two or three had died from the new "more dangerous" flu.

[defendandprotect]

205. Interesting . . .

18,000 dead from HiNi --

They actually verify which flu -- HiNi --?

I'd find the hype all more believable if government was more concerned with the environment,

and health of citizens, in general.

Personally, I think we've exhausted the human immune system!



Thank you -!

:)

[HuckleB]

206. "They."

Disappointed?

WOW! Keep making stuff up!

[HuckleB]

200. Exactly!

Unfortunately, evidence and repeated corroboration of said evidence doesn't mean a thing to those who need to find enemies everywhere at all costs. It's a very sad predicament, IMO.

[defendandprotect]

119. Btw, this is no average case of measles . . something many of us have had --

[HuckleB]

180. (Vancouver) Island doctors warned of measles outbreak (New Outbreak)

http://www.timescolonist.com/health/Island+doctors+warned+measles+outbreak/2745284/story.html

It will be interesting to see more information on this as it comes to the fore.

[HuckleB]

204. Refusing to Vaccinate Affects Other Kids, Too

Baseless excuses and paranoia don't wash.

http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100322/vaccination-choice-affects-other-kids-too