Studying Acupuncture, One Needle Prick at a Time

[groovedaddy]

For at least 2,000 years Chinese healers have used acupuncture to treat pain and other ailments. Now Western doctors want proof that it works.

There is little dispute that people feel better after receiving the treatment, in which thin needles are inserted deeply into the skin at specific points on the body. But are they benefiting from acupuncture itself, or just getting a placebo effect?

The debate was fueled last week by a study in the journal Arthritis Care and Research. Researchers from MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston found that among 455 patients with painful knee arthritis, acupuncture delivered no more relief than a sham treatment.

Actually, patients got significant pain relief from both treatments — an average reduction of one point on a scale of 1 to 7. And critics contend that the study was poorly designed.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/studying-acupuncture-one-needle-prick-at-a-time/?th&emc=th

[Warpy]

1. PET and fMRI scans have confirmed it does have profound effects

on the pain centers within the brain. The only question has always been whether the elaborate Chinese system of meridians had anything to do with it, or if random placement of needles in the same general area would do it.

Even the Chinese are discovering the system can be greatly simplified, and a lot of the old points are no longer used.

In a related study of some 25 years ago, researchers found that dry needling produced the same effect that cortisone injection did in soft tissue spinal injuries. The drug did nothing, the needles produced relief.

The theory now is that the needling produces a local depletion of substance P, the pain neurotransmitter, and that in itself reduces perception of pain both in the area and in other parts of the body.

[laconicsax]

5. Research has shown that the meridians have absolutely nothing to do with the observed effects.

In addition to the mechanism you cite there's also the fact that if you stab someone (or scrape their knee), their body releases adenosine, causing the brain to produce pain-killing endorphins.

Result: Acupuncture is a sham. Its methodology is unrelated to its effects, which can be triggered by a wide assortment of means.

[Warpy]

6. Sham or not sham? It does work, just not the way

traditional Chinese medicine says it does. The pain is a lot more limited than that of a skinned knee. In fact, the needle insertion is barely noticeable.

That's the difference, right there.

I've been part of a lot of clinical studies on acupuncture, from apahsia to cancer. The only thing I've seen it work well on is pain. The other studies turned out to be total busts.

[laconicsax]

9. Sham.

Acupuncture is a sham that benefits from coincidental effects. The whole basis of acupuncture is that you have to stick the needles in exactly the right spots to get an effect. Acupuncturists are paid for their "expertise" in where to stick the needles.

In a broad legal sense, someone commits fraud if they convince someone to part with their money under false pretenses. An acupuncturist claiming to have expert knowledge of where to stick the pins is a great example of false pretenses. Would the "patient" still shell out their money if they knew that they could get the same results if they did it themselves by sticking needles anywhere, or getting a friend to poke them with toothpicks?

If Person A convinces Person B that B should pay A to make the sun rise each morning with a magic spell, A is committing fraud despite the fact that the sun rose; their magic is a sham.

[mzteris]

11. you know - why don't you just try it?

Really? I mean, you seem to "know" the answer, but people for nearly 5000 years have been getting results that they are happy with. If it's a "sham" then it's a damned good one, innit?

[laconicsax]

12. I have no reason to do so.

I'm in good health.

It is a very good sham--right up there with prayer and homeopathy. People have been doing those for a long time too. The fact that sticking needles in your skin causes physiological effects completely unrelated to the treatment methodology only bolsters acupuncture's minimal credibility.

BTW: I make tiger attack prevention pendants. I guarantee that while wearing my pendants, you will not get attacked by tigers. Pay me $50 and I'll send you a pendant. The crystal does need occasional recharging, so the wise thing to do is to pay a monthly maintenance fee an I'll make sure your pendant is in good working order.

[mzteris]

13. well - for sham it must be pretty damn good to fool hundreds of millions

of people for five thousand years!!!!

My eleven year old son has stopped crying nearly every day because of the pain in his knees due to Osgood-Schlatters. I don't give a flying fig if it's a "sham" or not to tell you the truth. He's not in near as much pain so whatever the f it is - it IS WORKING!

"causes physiological effects" - - - sounds like an effective treatment to me.

[laconicsax]

14. You don't get it, do you?

When you take your son to the acupuncturist, you are paying for something you could do yourself with zero training. You could buy some acupuncture needles online (I hear the blue ones are best) and stick him yourself and get the exact same results.

Acupuncture is the idea that by placing needles at specific points, you can treat whatever. Study after study has shown that it doesn't matter where the needles go, because the methodology behind acupuncture is hokum, and that is where the sham is--you're being charged for something on false pretenses.

Your appeal to "5000 years of success" is meaningless. People thought the Earth was flat and the center of the universe for more than 5000 years and they were still wrong. People have prayed for divine intervention for at least 5000 years and they still aren't getting it, regardless of what their conformation bias says.

Read my comment #9. It lays out in plain terms why acupuncture is a sham, regardless of the "benefits." If you still don't get it, I still have those tiger-repellent pendants.

I wonder what your vested interest is that doesn't just prevent you from being objective, but compels you to attack those who are.

[mzteris]

15. I get it perfectly well, thank you.

And it works for me, too.

You're the one who "doesn't believe in it". I'm sorry, I can't help you with that. But the fact remains that this is a respected and well-researched and well-documented treatment that has worked for hundreds of millions of people for 5000 years. I'm sorry you don't "understand it". I'm sorry you don't "get it". But the fault lies with you, not with me, and not with the practicioners of the art. It takes at least four years to become a TCM - kinda like being a doctor, huh?

I understand the concept of acupuncture and acupressure, too. Oh - and guess what? I believe in chiropractors, too! Study after study has NOT shown what you claim unless it's a bunch of scoffers who are only trying to "prove their point" and have set-up a biased experiment designed to have that specific outcome.

My "vested interest" is trying to make sure that your dismissal of something you don't understand - can't comprehend? - just might prevent someone from getting the very help they would need to make their life a little better.

[laconicsax]

16. It takes four years to get a communications degree - kinda like being a doctor, huh?

Cause and effect: In acupuncture, the cause is placing needles at specific points and the effect is an occasional alleviation of pain.

Studies agree that the stated cause isn't the actual cause. What are these TCM students doing for 4 years if the methodology they use has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome? Oh, it took me more than four years of specialized instruction to become a working freelance musician. Does that make me a doctor too?

Since you're relying on anecdotes, here's one you can use: my grandmother tried acupuncture for chronic pain and it did nothing for her, nor did it do anything for some other people I know who have used it. Since you're also beating that "ancient, therefore correct" line into the ground, people have relied on astrology for thousands of years and it has worked for them. If you dismiss astrology, you must not understand it.

I'm still selling those pendants, too if you're interested. $50 plus a monthly maintenance fee may sound like a lot, but you'll appreciate not being attacked by tigers. If you want, I'll bundle extra pendants for your family at $30 each--that's almost half off!

[mzteris]

17. I'm sorry you're such a curmudgeon and afraid of trying things

you don't understand.

Oh well, your loss. And it IS your loss. I hope the day never comes when you're in excruciating pain and not one damn thing that "western medicine" has to offer can help you - and you - you'd have no other option other than to just suffer. That would be a damn shame.

[laconicsax]

19. So do you want a pendant or not?

My pendants have a special crystal that wards off tiger attacks. I guarantee that if you buy one and keep up with monthly maintenance to recharge the crystal, you will not be attacked by a tiger. $50 for the first pendant, $30 for subsequent pendants, I pay shipping.

If you buy four pendants you get your choice of a fifth free or an anti-cancer extension for one pendant. The anti-cancer extension has prevented cancer in 100% of users.

Don't leave yourself an your family at risk for tiger attacks. Buy my pendants--they're more effective than acupuncture. Having never been attacked by a tiger since I started wearing one, I can personally vouch for their efficacy. No one else who bought one (and kept up on maintenance) has been attacked either. They are 100% effective at preventing tiger attacks.

[BuddhaGirl]

20. people like to trash what they fear and don't understand

it's a time-honored tradition! :eyes: Sad to see such closed minds.

Glad it's helping your son - acupuncture made my menopausal symptoms - hot flashes and insomnia disappear. :-)

[HuckleB]

21. ROTFLMAO!

Closed minds? Try again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

PS: Acupuncture – An Implausible Premise Lacking Evidence -- http://sciencebasedparenting.com/2009/06/28/acupuncture-an-implausible-premise-lacking-evidence/

Now who is actually close-minded?

(That's a rhetorical question. The answer is in your mirror.)

[BuddhaGirl]

22. you can ROTFLMAO all you like, obsessive one

you're not changing anybody's mind :hi:

Check your own mirror :-)

[HuckleB]

28. Wanna bet?

As usual, you offer nothing but a juvenile ad hominem response.

Boring.

[BuddhaGirl]

32. it's the truth

if it's boring, why respond? :evilgrin:

[laconicsax]

23. I don't think you understand what it means to be open minded.

Open mindedness means considering all ideas, not blindly accepting all ideas.

I have read up on acupuncture and the large number of associated studies and used reason to conclude that it's a sham.

If I were close minded, I would have either A) always dismissed acupuncture out of hand and never been willing to consider any evidence on it, or B) blindly accepted acupuncture and vehemently opposed anyone questioning that acceptance.

Who's close-minded here? I reject acupuncture because I understand it. Many people accept acupuncture because they don't understand it.

[BuddhaGirl]

25. to the contrary, I do understand

I have tried it, have you? I have been greatly helped by it - namely, direct experience.

If you haven't tried it, well...

[laconicsax]

26. Then you don't understand it.

Sorry, anecdotal evidence is meaningless. I have family and friends who have tried it and had no success. With such contradictory accounts, it is necessary to rely on objective studies.

Those studies show that acupuncture is a sham. Thanks for playing.

[BuddhaGirl]

27. Anecdotal evidence is valuable

for people wishing to try something different.

You don't believe it, so what. Don't use it.

Thanks for playing :hi:

[laconicsax]

29. Could I interest you in an anti-tiger pendant?

$50 (plus a small monthly maintenance fee) and you could be the proud owner of a magic pendant that is 100% guaranteed to prevent tiger attacks.

I haven't been attacked since I started wearing one, and no one else wearing one has been attacked. You owe it to yourself and your family to protect yourself from tigers. Buy one today, satisfaction guaranteed.

[BuddhaGirl]

31. no thanks,

but glad to see you're a little more open-minded these days and willing to try something alternative! ;-)

[laconicsax]

33. Your loss. n/t

[Silent3]

35. Anytime anyone tries practically anything, it will "work" for someone.

You don't seem to get why anecdote is unreliable. If 100 people are suffering from a cold, all of them watch Glenn Beck, and 50 of them feel better the next day, that doesn't mean Glenn Beck cures colds. That doesn't even mean Glenn Beck cures colds for 50% of people, that Beck "works" for them, even if he doesn't "work" for the other 50%.

The confusion is even greater when the placebo effect comes into play, because many thing do have a measurable effect beyond mere coincidence of application, but the effect isn't anything particularly special or particularly valuable compared to many other things that would play the same trick on someone's mind.

You keep pushing "try it yourself" as if that's the Gold Standard for knowing if something works or not -- and the converse, that anyone who doesn't "try" something somehow has no standing in judging that thing -- but that's just blithely ignoring all the huge and very real problems with judging anything by the "try in yourself" approach.

At best the evidence shows that acupuncture might be slightly more effective than placebo for treatment of pain, but that the effectiveness is a very simple mechanism totally unrelated to all of the supposed expertise of acupuncturists in talking about "meridians" and carefully selecting particular insertion points.

[HuckleB]

18. Shhhhh. Plausibility concerns are not to be discussed.

Why I Am Skeptical of Acupuncture
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=362

[laconicsax]

24. I keep forgetting...this is the health forum, not the facts forum.

Facts need not apply.

Smoking is fine because it helps some people relax. Bringing up associated health concerns is just pissing on someone's parade.

Psychic mediums are real because they help comfort the bereaved. Pointing out that it's a scam is just being disrespectful.

Thimerosal causes autism in 100% of cases. I'd have to be a real asshole to point out how that isn't true.

[whistler162]

34. facts = link not some one saying "research shows"

what is this blind hatred for acupunture?

[zipplewrath]

2. Even this is in dispute

For at least 2,000 years Chinese healers have used acupuncture to treat pain and other ailments."

This is in a bit of dispute as well. It's been around for more than 2000 years, but the extent that it was still an active practice in China until Mao revived it looking for "nonwestern" methods, isn't clear.

[mzteris]

10. haven't been to China lately, have you?

Or Taiwan or Hong Kong?

And it's more like 5,000 years .

[HuckleB]

37. Indeed.

Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=252

Astrology with needles
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=583

[mzteris]

3. more like 5000 years ago...

If it works for you, it works. . . and why should anyone else give a rip if what you're doing WORKS FOR YOU!?!?

[HuckleB]

36. Why support a scam that does not work?

Learn about the real history of TCM...
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=252

[housewolf]

4. My own experiece with acupuncture - I'm a believer now

I woke up one day early last February with my right arm hurting, and I'd done nothing to injure it, it just started hurting. And over time the pain increased and moved up my arm to include my shoulder. For 3 or 4 months I went the traditional medicine route - dr appts, physical thereapy, pain meds when the pain got to be too much. I continued to get worse, so I quit going. After another couple of months, I decided to try acupuncture. A little bit better after the first session, a little more after the second session and now, after only 5 sessions, my arm is almost pain-free and back to normal and I am ecstatic.

What will happen when I stop acupuncture treatments remains to be see but at this point, I'm a believer - at least, it worked for me. I know that doesn't mean that it will work for everything. And if it's a placebo effect, well... that's okay with me! "Their way", the supposed official, scientifically-proven menthod, didn't work for me. My acupuncture treatments are less than half the cost of a physical therapy session, and after big bucks for dr appts and x-rays... I wish now that I had started with the acupuncture treatments!

[groovedaddy]

7. My experience with it began from having migraines.

I started having them in my 40s, after moving to an area considerably higher in elevation (changes in elevation can be migraine triggers). I was so sick, particularly nauseous, that I could barely get myself to the car for my girlfriend to drive me to Dr. Kuai, as she was recommending it.
Dr. Kuai was a 70 year old man from China, whose family had practiced accupuncture for generations.
He put needles on my upper shins, telling me this was for the nausea. The nausea was gone in 15 minutes. After an hour, the headache had greatly dissipated. He told me to come back for 2 more treatments. After the 2nd one, I had no symptoms at all. I still came back for the third and told Dr. Kuai that I had carpal tunnel in my right wrist and it had really been bothering me. He put the needles in different areas for that. The carpal tunnel pain was gone and stayed gone for several months. He also showed me which points I could work with my fingers if I started getting aural displays (the lights in the field vision indicating an on-coming migraine). I have successfully avoided full-blown migraines by working these pressure points. These points are more responsive to touch, so they're easy to find. I trust my experience.

[Celebration]

8. why would they study one needle prick at a time?

It almost always takes more than one acupuncture needle to cause a change.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.