For Theft to Exist, Doesn't Somerthing Have to Be Missing From the Plantiff?

[kerrywins]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4750642&name=mma

If someone steals an item from me, I will be missing that item.

[MercutioATC]

1. If you were missing $45, would that constitute a theft?

How about 10,000 X $45?

What's "missing" is revenue. It IS theft.

[kerrywins]

2. if I had $45 in my pocket and someone took it,

I would physically be missing the money I had in my possession. If I had a picture and I was selling it for $45, and someone took a picture of my picture, I would not be physically missing anything. To me, that's not theft.
I still have my picture in my possession.

[MercutioATC]

3. If you wrote a novel and people read illegal copies, depriving you of income from book sales...

...would that be theft?

[kerrywins]

4. in my humble opinion, no

again, for theft to occur, I have to be missing something.

I would still have the book in my possession in your example.

[MercutioATC]

5. O.K. Well, you're consistent.

However, we do have something called "intellectual property rights" in this country...and I think that most people who provide products based on intellectual property would disagree with your position.

[kerrywins]

6. I'm sure they all would...

but IP laws are a scam and have been used to give favor to well connected organizations/corporations.

Most people will find the above statement hard to believe, I did.

IP laws seem like a good idea on paper, seem like they are trying to protect hard working people, but when you read about all the abuses of IP, it seems, they have been thoroughly abused.

And when I read further, IP laws didn't make alot of sense to begin with.

[MercutioATC]

7. How do authors and musicians get paid, then?

They DID create a product, even if you can't physically hold it. Don't they deserve to be compensated for that?

[kerrywins]

8. same as they get paid now

what would happen, though if IP laws didn't exist, is that the value of their product would be adjusted, it would go down in value.

[MercutioATC]

9. I would argue that the value of their product would approach zero.

If everybody was given unlimited free access to all intellectual property and the right to record it (own it, not borrow it as they would from a library) how many people would actually choose to buy it?

[kerrywins]

10. well, for one, it would be hard to copy a book

but i agree, music would probably go down in value. I think people would buy it at 10 cents a song, though. People buy it at 99 cents a song.

[MercutioATC]

11. Now you're arguing pricing, which is valid.

However, I don't believe that it's valid to allow one person to enjoy the fruits of another's labor without compensation as a reaction to market issues.

[kerrywins]

12. this has been a nice discussion

we were both very civil and I enjoyed it.
thank you.

but, I think this is where we probably part ways.

there are alot of instances where people enjoy the fruits of other people's labor without compensating them.

for me, the bottom line is, it is not theft...because nothing is missing from the owner.

actually...I could argue further, that IP laws violate property rights.

[MercutioATC]

13. Agreed

One of the few civil discussions I've had here today.

Thanks :)

[kerrywins]

14. yeah, me too

seems like there can be quite a bit of name calling on this forum.

it seems also, that people try to use scare tactics of "calling people out"....

it can seem sort of like a gestapo hell here sometimes...

[IDFbunny]

16. the more an mp3 is downloaded the more the cd sells

RIAA is still trying to make the case despite that trend.

[chandler2]

15. Ever heard of theft of services? nt