Sincere question about race, crime, perceptions and stereotypes...

[HardWorkingDem]

I want to be completely upfront on this OP.

I am a white male police officer in a city known for its supposed persona as a test market for the nation. We have a 25 percent black population. After almost 20 years as a police officer, I am growing greatly troubled by how my observations are taking a tole on my liberal beliefs.

I am a die hard liberal Democrat with a masters degree in criminal justice. I sincerely believe that no person is better than another when it comes to identifiers as gender, race, sexuality, religion or beliefs. I truly believe we are all equals.

Now, here is my dilemma - I am known to tell people that when it comes to policing, "that when it comes to a liberal's beliefs, with what we see every day, a liberal has to a to struggle with his or her beliefs, while a conservative gets to have his or her beliefs reinforced."


When I examine the troubles in society, I understand that there are things like family, prejudice, support groups, nutrition, environment, economics, social standing, biology, peer pressure and many more factors that influence behavior. Many of my conservative counter points miss and ignore these factors and instead see a causal link between race and crime. I know it is much more complex than that.

What I am asking is for guidance, help and knowledge to point me away from examples, observations and experiences that tend toward the development of prejudice.

[MercutioATC]

1. "Predjudice" is an evolutionary tool. It will always exist to some extent...

...unless it loses its selective value.


That said, there IS "unfair" (and, ultimately, counterproductive) prejudice...and it will probably exist for the remainder of your lifespan. However, sometime after the point at which it ceases to be effective in an evolutionary sense, it will fall out of favor (which I believe has been increasingly the case for the past 30 years).


Start realizing that big changes take time and that you're doing your part to affect that change...and that's all any of us can ask of ourselves.

[Mind_your_head]

2. Prejudice, by its very definition means "unfair"

Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: \ˈpre-jə-dəs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment — more at judicial
Date: 13th century
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

[MercutioATC]

5. Perhaps, but "prejudice" serves a basic evolutionary function.

...and it's hardwired into us.

I'm not suggesting that discarding unwarranted prejudices isn't productive, I'm stating that prejudice is our natural evolutionary state and it takes time to shed a primal influence.

[Mind_your_head]

7. I disagree. It's NOT 'hardwired' into us. Not at all.

Someone TAUGHT you that...and your 'believed'. Some of us were taught to be prejudiced and we rejected that teaching as illogical and wrong-headed.

Prejudice is not "hardwired".

[imdjh]

10. Perhaps he means tribalism is hard wired.

But prejudice is probably hard wired to some extent as well. Looking at the Webster's definition of prejudice, it's simply a matter of degree or perception in some aspects of tribalism which are rooted in prejudice. If tribalism is favoring your own tribe, then it is also disfavoring the other tribe. Whether it's expressed or even quantified, there is the logical implication that if there is a line drawn between the two tribes then there is a reason that it is maintained.

[kwassa]

18. Tribalism, like prejudice, is taught. Taught. Not hard-wired.

[MercutioATC]

12. Science disagrees with you.

...but that's not the focus of my point.

My response to the OP is that bias based on non-determinative factors is the norm. It is, in fact a latent survival mechanism.

Understanding that bias is a natural state is necessary perspective...and it is essential if one wishes to evaluate the situation rationally.

[Mind_your_head]

14. No.......you didn't even construct a good sentence and you make it sound so 'factual'

"Understanding that bias is a natural state is necessary perspective...and it is essential if one wishes to evaluate the situation rationally."

:wtf: That's not even a well written sentence! And what does that "mean"?????

---------------

My old neighbor used to quote "Professor Jones" and throw out statistics about such-and-such. My father was 'cowed' for awhile about Professor Jones' statistics. Finally he asked the neighbor, "who is this 'Professor Jones' and my neighbor admitted that there was no "Professor Jones". He made him up! But Professor Jones had won him many an argument!

[IDFbunny]

21. Non of us wakes up in a new world everyday.

You have prejudices, perhaps not racial but in the least political otherwise you wouldn't be on DU. If you see a redneck at a distance, your redneck experiences will complete the picture until more information becomes available.

[imdjh]

22. redneck is racist, classist, cultural, and arguably political

[handmade34]

3. My daughter is a police officer

I have worked as a correctional officer and have known and socialized with both the 'criminal' and the 'cop'. I understand your dilemma. It is extremely difficult work breaking through one's own prejudice's and taking the time to understand cause and effect. It is much too late(in the evening) for me to engage in the type of philosophical conversation that your question demands, but before I leave here I must say I admire that you have stuck with the work, given your social and political leanings. Prejudice is easy and convenient for many people and solutions for society's problems are time consuming and take much energy. Unfortunately, just as cops develop stigmas towards certain people/groups, some groups/people develop attitudes towards cops. You've taken the tougher road and there are no easy answers. Our societal problems are deep seated... this is a conversation that both intrigues and delights me because there is hope as long as someone like you is engaging in it...

[HardWorkingDem]

6. Thank you so much...I am so torn.....

There is another common theme/saying that 10 percent of the population creates 90 percent of the problems. And instead of seeing this ten percent as the problem, people tend to see the most obvious and clear identifier of this ten percent as the problem. What I'm trying to explain is that often times when it comes to the poor, only a small number create the problems, but later, this small number of poor amplifies how we see the poor. It's like even though we know the largest number of the poor are good people, so many people who are poor seem to be the problem, therefore, the largest majority of poor must be problem.

Anyway, I'm glad you understand my dilemma and I look forward to your future comments.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RandomThoughts]

4. Adherence to law requires some belief in the equity of that law.

other people may have different views.

It is possible within certain groups the belief in the inequality of justice leads those groups to see the law or what is legal differently.

I can give a few examples.

When I see people of different classes, with different resources, or social circles treated differently by justice, I have to admit that our social contract has problems.

It is possible that people that have been treated unequally in many circumstances would not think the law is just, so that law would not mean as much to them leading to less respect of the law and an ability to rationalize what is legal. That could be different then someone else's perception of law. Basically the same law of the jungle and anarchy done by many in power is adopted by those with less power. You can't name a single person you have arrested that has less respect for law then some people in the previous administration.



To give an example, when I see the theft that is legal, or illegal and not prosecuted within our system I immediately know it is unjust and invalidates the laws because it is not prosecuted. The only thing that stops me from stealing is I choose not to for many reasons, but I would not see theft as illegal by any laws. So I do have greater temptation to break the law, since the law itself does not exist as far as I can deduce, so I understand why a group that feels, and evidence indicates, has not had justice would be in a different place then some other groups when thinking on what is legal.

Then because they have a different view, it is possible they would create more crime, get more attention from police, and then that would create the discrimination that creates the lack of respect for law.

Even without laws, I think it is still best not to steal from other people, because of the perception of the action by many people, regardless if it is legal, creates more problems for the overall goal of justice with compassion.

Many people in places of leadership have given an example that makes your job as a police officer much harder.


It gets pretty deep, your view of law is something that is. You think it exist because it was taught that it does. If someone else thinks it does not exist, what makes you right and them wrong. Currently it is the fact that some have the power to incarcerate. But it is not a legal thing it is someone having the power to enforce a rule, or as said before law of the jungle. So you really don't enforce laws, you enforce rules set by people that have the power to pay you to do it. That is why your conservative friends would probably be more likely to break laws themselves while inforcing laws. Just like the criminals you run into don't respect the laws, many that follow far right policies do not either.

But thanks for protecting people in such a tough job.

[handmade34]

8. yes

I used to always simply say, "as long as we have double-standards there will be problems" ...the crack/cocaine situation is a good example. ...legal manipulation of the tax rules by the wealthy/corporations versus minor tax infractions by middle income people. ...acceptable corporate 'welfare' versus the stigma of the 'welfare mom' I would have to say that the inequality of our times is a factor...

[HardWorkingDem]

11. Crack/cocaine/meth...

Now here is something to toss into the perceived disparity of prison penalties when ti comes to the crack cocaine/powder cocaine dispute...

It's my thought that the long prison terms were associated with the violence more often seen associated with crack cocaine in comparison with powder cocaine.

This is further rationalized when it comes to the prison terms associated with methamphetamines, ie, hillbilly crack. The prison sentences for meth are very similar to that of crack cocaine. Life for very small amounts.

[imdjh]

9. It seems pretty simple to me, but then I'm not you.

Unlike some folks here, I read all the stats and I don't buy into excuses. The numbers are ugly. There are serious cultural problems, and they can't all be addressed through the traditional academic dismissals. There are serious political and economic problems.

Something I hear a lot is "Something's got to change." but what I rarely hear is a willingness to accept the change that needs to take place. One huge change is that we have got to break up poverty zones. Once thought to be nurturing centers for evolving political power, they are now simply breeding grounds for crime and corruption. And this is always, ALWAYS met with screams and howls.

It's funny, the differences between rural and urban. Someone announces he's going to tear down a meth infested trailer park in Polk County Florida, and you can almost hear "Praise Jesus!" in the wind. But you announce that you're going to tear down a drug infested public housing project and all you hear is the cries of the destruction of community and punishment of the poor. What is the difference?

[kwassa]

19. What exactly are you talking about?

How are poverty zones nurturing centers for political power?

I've never heard such a concept.

And how are you going to break them up? Bulldoze them? Blow them up? What happens to the people who live there?

and I don't know where you are from, but public housing projects of the big tower variety have been systematically torn down for the past 20 years or so.

So, what major urban center do you live in?

[paulsby]

13. as a police officer myself

i applaud your honesty.

the reality is this.

people should always be treated as individuals, not as members of a group.

however, it is simply a fact that some groups commit crimes at a disproportionate rate to other groups.

that goes for gender (males obviously commit far more violent crime than women) differentiation, age differentials, religious affiliation, race, ethnicity, etc.

that's simply reality.

i am not a liberal fwiw. i am a left moderate with strong libertarian tendencies. i don't think that police work reinforces a conservative viewpoint. i think it DOES discredit a lot of pollyanna PC crap that many liberals espouse though.

for example i know that 99% of the anti-taser crap posted here is anti-scientific, anti-factual nonsense. so, i generally ignore it.

i know that NCVS studies pretty much discredit most claims of "racial profiling" and i know the stats are on my side, but i am not going to get inbto long wanking arguments with people who are convinced that racial profiling is extant.

i know that people with CCW's are amongst the most law abiding demographics, but i accept that many iberals are WOEFULLY misinformed about the reality of those who choose to legally carry concealed.

i know that, contrary to many's beliefs. that cops in general demonstrate REMARKABLE restraint when it comes to force.

but you are exactly right. we are all equals, and equals under the law. that's what's most important.

[BanzaiBonnie]

15. Man, I hope some people will see this post and recommend

This is one of the most important discussions ever. Thank you, HWD for having the courage to address this.

I won't go too existential on you, but because I work as a spiritual coach, teaching people to pray/meditate, to find answers, this is what I offer:

The Ho'oponopono prayer ( Hawaiian way of making things right)

I love you
Thank you for this opportunity to make things right
Please forgive me
I forgive you




and my understanding of how you are changing the situation

I love you With this declaration, you are reaching out to the other person and to our universal Source. Love is underlying all. We are all united here

Thank you for the opportunity to make things right Giving thanks to Source and that through Source you have power to change the situation

Please forgive me We all carry some ugly inside of us and need to accept responsibility for what is our own

I forgive you Allow the other person to accept responsibility by letting it go



I like to think of myself as a practical person and this is something that anyone can do. This is good for the bigger picture, but also offers much relief for daily incidents that disturb us and cause us grief. Try it the next time some *idiot cuts you off in traffic or even when you stub your toe. I have found it actually brings relief.

And HardWorkingDem, relief is what I feel you need from this burden. I admire the path you have chosen and thank you for that.

[HardWorkingDem]

16. Thank you...

for the kind words and words of inspiration.

Oddly, I didn't even get into the aspect of how the learned perceptions of policing even further contribute to its own self actualization (what I mean is, in policing, the most police resources are generally focused in poor areas, therefore, the poor are much more represented in policing, therefore, that also tends to further reinforce what conservatives thing when it comes to crime).

[imdjh]

17. It's easier to blame everything on the police, society, culture, and history...

... than to answer the question of what needs to be done and then insist that it be done.

So many people like to delude themselves that there is some conspiracy out there to do in those people in high crime areas, because those same people simply refuse to accept that one of the primary reasons an area is high crime is because criminal behavior is tolerated. Because those same people refuse to accept that social behaviors which mask criminality are criminal enabling. Because those same people in general refuse to accept that responsibility lies with the "victim" for how he will live and what he will put up with. These are not citizens, citizens are people who stand up and say "Enough!". These are residents, tenants in their own lives who stand up and say "Somebody needs to do something."

An "ownership society" is not, as George Bush tried to make it out, about how much land your name is on. An ownership society is one in which people take responsibility, for the soda can that didn't make it to the trash can, and the guys hanging out on the corner making people afraid to shop after dark.

[kwassa]

20. And what do these people own?

Their clothing? what else?

How does one participate in ownership without ownership?

Tell me, tell me.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.