Thoughts On Affirmative Action. I Need Your Help!

[BamaLefty]

I am having to write a paper on this topic for my class. I need some thoughts from my fellow DUers on this matter. Who is for affirmative action and who is against it?

I really need the ideas for my paper and there is nobody I would appreciate ideas from more than DUers.

Thanks!

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Questions:

What grade are you in?
What class is this for?
And what is the main topic? Is it "who is against AA and who is for it?"

[BamaLefty]

2. Answer

11th Grade
English
Affirmative Action- Yes

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. As ArthurDent below pointed out, your teacher's politics are

important.

Basic positions:

Affirmative Action exists because our society does not provide opportunities equitably to all citizens. There are many obstacles that many Americans face, generally based upon the following: race, religion, gender, color, nationality -- and later Disability. (Those are the categories for Equal Employment Opportunity.) Those obstacles are the result of prejudices from the decision makers for college & job screenings/promotions etc. And even though prejudices against blacks and women were the most rampant and publicized, AA does not apply to just them. It is also used by colleges to make sure that they get a fair representation of rural students -- which generally translates to white male.

And how are minorities excluded? It starts with innocuous social networkings that are so ingrained in our society that we don't even blink when it happens. Some have come to call it Affirmative Access. In a whites vs. minority argument, the minority group would point to the social networks that whites form in country clubs, business organizations, trade organizations, and in colleges. Those networks are not only formed to help their own frog-leap in business, but also serves to exclude minorites. How? If those groups are also prejudice to people of color or race, therein lies the crime. In time, you have minority members excluded from decisions that they need for financial success. Not only that, but the fact they are not in the higher socio-economic levels, perpetuates prejudices against them.

It's a cycle. Whites don't see how the decisions they make when they create those networks are part of the problem. It's their Affirmative Access which creates the reason for Affirmative Action.

That's the argument for Affirmative Action.

The argument against it has two stories. The first is the public face, or the story that those against Affirmative Action will want the public to hear. They claim that Affirmative Action is not merit based and that only the best for the job should get the jobs regardless of race, color, gender, religion etc. The second story is not so nice. If you infiltrate their circles, whites will confide in you that they believe minorities are inferior, lazy and not deserving of the extra treatment. Thus, they will confirm the very prejudices that cause the inequities.

What I haven't mentioned is perhaps the best use for AA, which is access to college opportunities, despite lower scores. The grounds for this is that less financial success means less educational opportunities at a younger age. Less trips to the science center, less trips to cultural plays and fewer parents who are themselves educated enough to help the kids with their homework. So, prejudice is at the helm of the inequities in our society, It keeps people from experiences they need to be competitive for college and job opportunites.

Frankly, there are only two reasons why a country would even expend the time to make things equitable. The fact that equality is a cornerstone of our Constitution is irrelevant since we've seen how quickly the right-wingers are to shred the Constitution when it serves their purpose. The two main reasons why a country would even bother to break the prejudicial social networks is because no race or group would ever accept being trampled on forever and civil rioting would take place, much like it did in France. And because it is in our national security interest that Americns have good race relations because someday they may find themselves in tight barracks, defending this country against a common enemy. And, the fact that a black soldier fragged a tent of military officers at the beginning of Bush II's Iraq war suggests that things are deteriorating. To my knowledge, that wasn't done based on race, even in Vietnam.

[ArthurDent]

3. Teacher's politics?

That's important.

[Nikia]

5. There are two separate issues

Affirmative action differs somewhat in its two forms: college admission and employment.
With the exception of some large companies who recruit on college campuses, most employees aren't employed as part of a relatively large "class" like they are in colleges. Colleges may be interested in affirmative action for a couple of reasons. The first is the interst of equally the playing field. The other reason is that they may feel that it is part of their mission to bring together a class with a lot of diversity so that students will be exposed to other types of people as part of their education. These classes may be less white than if the class was decided merely on the basis of test scores and grades, but no one will argue that whites are being excluded. At some selective colleges, there are many qualified candidates and applicants may be chosen for a wide variety of factors apart from test scores and grades anyway. Most students with high test scores and grades will get into a good college even if they are denied admission to their first choice college.
Affirmative action for employment is different in that there are usually relatively few people hired at any given time. With the exception of some fields, there are usually many more qualified applicants than positions for good jobs. A great many number of jobs are filled by networking, a different type of affirmative action which excludes not only minorities but also people from lower class backgrounds even if they have recently obtained a degree. Smaller companies may continue to practice discrimination without being detected if they hire relatively few people and are not in an area where many minorities would apply anyway. Having good college grades, pertainent experience, and other credentials does not guarentee anyone a good job. Employers have the right to not hire you for any reason. That reason might really be because they don't think that you, as a woman, can do a "man's job" or think that you as a black person might not be as hard of a worker. Affirmative action discourages discrimination.
I am in favor of affirmative action for education and employment for these reasons. Being in the workplace has given me the knowledge that discrimination, both through exclusive networks and prejudice, continues and needs to be corrected.

[BamaLefty]

6. Thank You All

I have now finished my paper and included some of the outstanding ideas that were posted in this thread. I decided to base my paper on the against argument. I did this because I felt pretty sure that my teacher would fall in this same category and I tended to lean this way myself.

As for her politics: She is a 30-something year old Catholic who voted for John Kerry. Way to go teach!

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Just a few questions.

You owe me since I answered yours. I'm really curious about a couple:

(1) How did you incorporate ideas from this thread into your argument, when all but one paragraph was in favor of AA?

(2) How does someone consider themselves a devout Christian who would not make others second class citizens and not support AA? Does one have to be blind to racism to rationalize it?

I'm seriously curious about this, since I really think it's impossible to consider oneself a Christian and not believe in AA or in social programs that help the poor.

[retread]

8. Probably wasting your time. Let's see-- 11th grade, Alabama(?),

and Caucasian(just a guess!). The real surprise would have been favoring AA!

I detected a desire for a grade from this poster, not a search for answers.

[Tommy Jefferson]

10. Racist

"Let's see-- 11th grade, Alabama(?),

...and Caucasian(just a guess!)."

And we know how ALL "those people" are.

[cleanheart.396]

9. Affirmative Action

   I'm only for affirmative action because it might keep
things from getting too bad while we're trying to figure out a
way to transcend a system that even in the best of all
possible worlds insists that "success" has to do
with getting an education that is, at best, based on a lot of
untruths (especially in history, political science, etc), and
that sets us all up to believe that we actually have a right
to refuse people good-paying jobs because of what they do.
   What would we do if we went to work or school and no
cleaning staff had, through the auspices of their
"profession" kept us safe from dangerous germs and
bacteria? What would happen if the garbage men, the clerks,
the fast-food workers all decided they weren't going to work?
Just what would we do? Do you think these people deserve less
than the well-paid, so-called intelligentsia? We get mad at
Whites, the rich, the powerful for making a huge difference
between us and them, yet, we compound the problem by making it
among ourselves. Why are we afraid to say that every job is
important? Why do we need to believe in our own superiority?
Why is our educational/work system not geared to help people
find what is best in themselves, to know what they were born
to do, and while finding out, pay people well. Menial, and/or
low paid workers work just as hard as everyone else. Why are
we content that they are paid less.  Why do we need to believe
that some people deserve more than others not because they're
white or rich, but because they didn't happen to test high on
an SAT test?
   People need to feel they're valuable no matter what they
do. If we could just stop finding a million ways to judge
people that would take care of a big chunk of racism, class
ism, chauvinism, etc. All of us are so much more than a test
score, a skin color, a job title.  When we realize this, and
act on it, gone will be the days of the kind of human
competition that depletes everything in us worth saving.
   If someone is willing to work each day to serve their
community, which in effect is all a job really  is, they
deserve everything they need to make their lives pleasant and
worthwhile. Racism is based on the idea that someone is not as
worthy as someone else. Yet our school systems, workplaces,
all that we do, are based on this idea, and we believe that
when this criterion is used in judging people's right to goods
and services, based on education, etc. that we are being fair.
We think this because we honestly think that a diploma really
determines intelligence. If it did, then we wouldn't be
talking about education, racism, affirmative action, or
"fair" anything. Educated people run the world, and
look at it.  And this is the way it has always been. It would
follow that what we learn in school, and how much information
we are capable of retaining, is not how intelligence should be
determined. Educated people make the bombs which blow up the
world, and they decide policies which condemn millions, even
billions to death.
   In closing, I would suggest that we begin to explore the
shame, the pain, that forces us to see and live in a world
divided according to superficial standards that never really
hold up under close and compassionate scrutiny; and to make
decisions which will condemn us and our children. Decisions,
that if left as they have been, all the education in the world
won't save us, neither will good jobs, money, or position. We
will be washed, dead, up on the shores of delusion and
hypocrisy to die again, literally, and for real.

[Freaks1932]

11. Against it

I am against it as of present time. People should be hired because of their abilities not their race/gender. At one point it may have helped but to continue using it would be a crutch, rather is should be abolished at least for a certain amount of time to see how things transgress.

[fortyfeetunder]

12. Case in point:Title IX is a type of Affirmative Action program

Think that should be abolished?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX