What's the harm?

[beam me up scottie]

UK naturopath Max Tomlinson convinced his wife to have a home birth assisted by a homeopathic midwife and his son nearly died and was born with cerebral palsy because of it. When Tomlinson's wife, Filipa, was 35 weeks pregnant and suffering from something Tomlinson's herbs couldn't help, he took her to a GP. She was diagnosed with obstetric cholestasis, a liver disorder that meant there was a high risk of the baby being stillborn. The GP wanted to induce labor but Tomlinson took Filipa home and gave her milk thistle and dandelion. When Filipa did go into labor and had dilated to the point where they could see the baby's hair, she did what felt natural to her. She walked around and crushed the baby's skull. When they finally went to the hospital, they failed to tell the conventional medical personnel that she'd been in labor for more than 15 hours. Had they known, they would have induced labor. Two hours later, the baby was born. Writes Tomlinson: "When he finally emerged, he looked like he had been beaten up. One side of his head was so swollen, he had no neck, and his skull was squashed into a point."

http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/harm.html

From The Times Online:

Health: Homing instinct
Can a home birth ever be 100% safe? Max Tomlinson, widely considered to be the UK’s leading naturopath and a staunch exponent of natural medicine, thought so. But, as he explains to Mia Ogden, his beliefs almost cost the life of his son

*****
Our nightmare began with the itching, when my wife, Filipa, was 35 weeks pregnant. I had been looking after her up until then, as we wanted to avoid conventional medicine altogether. But, suddenly, her skin was on fire and she was sleeping with her hands in a bucket of iced water. Her pain became so acute that, reluctantly, she went to the GP. He told us it was just an allergy. It was only when we asked for a second opinion that she was diagnosed as suffering from obstetric cholestasis, a liver disorder that occurs in only 2% of pregnant women; it meant there was a high risk of our baby being stillborn.

Filipa went to hospital immediately for tests and, thankfully, we were told she was fine. I prescribed herbs for her — milk thistle and dandelion — and the levels of toxins in her liver came down. But the consultant wanted to induce her at 37 weeks, anyway, to be sure that the baby was safe.
*****
Because he was starved of oxygen during birth, Jaspar has been diagnosed with cerebral palsy. He’s still taking anti-epileptic drugs, but he’s being treated by the best natural therapists we know. We’ve had to remortgage the house as his treatments cost a fortune.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2104-1375978,00.html

[Kali]

1. I had both of mine at home -

note the liver problem was pretty rare, if the pregnancy is normal and no other risks have been identified home birth can be safer than hopital birth. Hospitals are for sick or injured (traumatized) people. Most pregnancies and births (and a lot of deaths as well) are NOT medical condidtions, they are normal life functions and if all is healthy there should be no fear of birthing at home.

Plenty of cerebral damage done WITH assisted medical births.

[gaia_gardener]

2. She "walked around and crushed the baby's head"?

I've never heard that one. I was told by my OB that having a baby born with the amniotic sac intact would break his neck, but not that walking around would crush his head.

If I get pg again, it will be a homebirth. I will never do a hospital birth again if I can help it. I will seek prenatal care and be sure that all is well, but multiple studies have shown that homebirth is actually safer for women with no complications.

Hospitals are hotbeds of infections. Infections that are antibiotic resistant. I will not expose my newborn to those pathogens again.

Hospitals are full of OBs who think their interventions are the best. OBs who break the amniotic sac without checking the position of the baby and cause cord prolapse. OBs who insist upon using drugs which are contraindicated for labor and which have been proven to cause uterine rupture. OBs who think that at 40 weeks a woman must be induced because she is now "past dates", never mind that it is possible she didn't conceive right when they thought.

[Kali]

3. My second was born in the sac -

my midwife told me that the mythology was that meant he would become a midwife???...

At any rate no broken neck but he also had his hand up by his face, the little shit, so it was some work getting him out of there - I did take a few hits of oxygen.

Good luck if you do it again - it really is nice to be at home with whoever you want present.

[gaia_gardener]

7. Yeah, my first had a "telephone hand"

I was told being born "in the caul (cawl?)" granted a child mythological powers/second sight.

I'm hoping no more kids. I'm not sure how homebirth friendly my present location is or how likely I would be to find a midwife close enough (my 2nd birth was quite precipitous).

[Ian David]

14. I was told that being left-handed means your soul belongs to Satan

Oooh... chilling, isn't it?

I was born under the sign of Aquarius, which means we don't believe in nonsense such as Astrology and mythological powers.

There's nothing I can do about it. It's all pre-ordained in the stars.

Ooooohhhh... it's un-canny.

[Ian David]

13. So, don't use those OBs. You do use an OB for pre-natal care, right?

Research your treatment and research your OB.

Talk to your OB.

Pre-screen them.

And tell them things you do and do not want done.

Duh.

[Ian David]

16. For home or hospital births, tell your care-providers not to use DHMO!

Both hospitals and midwives often use a dangerous chemical called Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO).

This chemical is used for everything from an industrial solvent to giving abortions! Why a physician or midwife would use this on a pregnant woman is beyond me.




The Truth about DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is perhaps the single most prevalent of all chemicals that can be dangerous to human life. Despite this truth, most people are not unduly concerned about the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Governments, civic leaders, corporations, military organizations, and citizens in every walk of life seem to either be ignorant of or shrug off the truth about Dihydrogen Monoxide as not being applicable to them. This concerns us.

For more information:
Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info
http://www.dhmo.org/

[Desertrose]

42. Gee...I see your watery DHMO rant is fresh from Snopes.....

very clever....:rofl:

http://www.snopes.com/toxins/dhmo.htm

Claim:   A junior high school student won a science fair by circulating a report about the dangers of 'dihydrogen monoxide.'

Status:   True.

Example:  

How Gullible are We?
Origins:   In 1997, Nathan Zohner, a 14-year-old student at Eagle Rock Junior High School in Idaho Falls, based his science fair project on a report similar to the one reproduced above. Zohner's project, titled "How Gullible Are We?", involved presenting this report about "the dangers of dihyrogen monoxide" to fifty ninth-grade students and asking them what (if anything) should be done about the chemical.

Zohner's project wasn't original: spoof petitions about dihydrogen monoxide and other innocuous "dangers" have been circulating for years, and Zohner based his project on a bogus report that was already making the rounds of the Internet.
http://www.snopes.com/toxins/dhmo.htm
____

Well its true that some are definitely more gullible than others.....then there are others who enjoy adding to the confusion.....however it is true...we do need H2O & it is in just about everything....

[Ian David]

43. Come on, self-delete before you ruin it for everyone.

:P

[Celebration]

4. Science Forum?

Or home birthing forum?

Sad anecdote here

To interject a little SCIENCE into this thread

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15961814&query_hl=28

CONCLUSIONS: Planned home birth for low risk women in North America using certified professional midwives was associated with lower rates of medical intervention but similar intrapartum and neonatal mortality to that of low risk hospital births in the United States.

[beam me up scottie]

6. Try to stay on topic and not hijack this thread.

Thank you.

[HuckleB]

18. How do you hijack a thread on home birth by posting a study on home birth?

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

23. Did you read the articles?

I'm tired of the anti-science people using this forum to create fear and distrust for scientists and medical professionals.

They have nothing to back up their opinions, just paranoia and an occasional study that has never been peer reviewed.

The replies to this thread and several others in this forum illustrate that point beautifully.

Doubtful? Post an article citing the many studies that show no link between vaccines and autism and see what happens.

[HuckleB]

25. Yes.

As for the rest of your post, I deal with the anti-science crowd at DU almost every day. In fact, I am looking forward to my two-month exile from the Internet starting in an hour or so, mostly because of those experiences.

[beam me up scottie]

29. IF that was true, and I have my doubts, you'd recognize the source

of this series of articles and stop accusing me of an anti-home birth agenda.

[HuckleB]

30. I haven't accused you of anything.

The source doesn't mean much when the anti-home birth crowd gets going. It's interesting that everyone else must get your point, but, somehow, it's difficult for you to take other's posts in context?

Hmm.

[Kali]

10. uh, sorry - didn't catch the science forum

I post off of "latest" and it has a little from everywhere.
XKYOOZ me.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Actually, your input based on your experience is valuable.

I'm just trying to ward off the anti-science people before they turn this into a medical hatefomercial.

[Ian David]

15. Yeah, it's you so-called "Science" people that dismissed Cat Painting

Amazing Phenomenon! Why Cats Paint: A Theory of Feline Aesthetics
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3664593

[beam me up scottie]

5. For all of you who didn't read the article and think it is an anti-midwife

piece, might I suggest actually READING the articles?

It usually helps to clear up all that confusion associated with not knowing what the subject is.

Just a suggestion, of course.

[gaia_gardener]

8. Read the articles? Why would I do that?

<tongue firmly in cheek>

I'll admit I didn't read the articles, I'll try to come back tomorrow to do it. But the comments you posted were precious (in a scary sort of way).

[beam me up scottie]

9. Pointing out the dangers of not seeking proper medical attention

(especially for the latter half of the pregnancy) is not anti-home birth.
The author is hoping that some will learn from his tragic experience.
I thought it was an admirable thing for him to do.

[trotsky]

12. We used midwives for both of our kids' births.

Also used a deulah (sp?) for the second one. But they were not homeopathic ones - they worked within the scientific medical structure and assisted in making the childbirth much more of an experience rather than a condition. But - and this is the most important part - they worked hand-in-hand with "traditional" doctors every step of the way to detect potential problems and be ready to resort to proven procedures if necessary. (My wife's first labor was so difficult, she was about 15 minutes away from a C-section before she finally hit 10cm.)

There is a very real harm in people going the "alternative medicine" path. Thank you for posting this!

[beam me up scottie]

19. Thanks for getting the point.

This guy is directly responsible for what happened to his child.

He preferred to "treat" his wife instead of listening to the medical professionals.

At least he accepts responsibility and wants people to learn from his tragic mistake.

Too bad his child is paying the price for his arrogance.

[HuckleB]

21. The point?

Except "getting the point" (your supposed point) in regard to home birth in online discussions, means ignoring far too much experience, where individuals use every case they can find to dismiss home birth en masse.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

31. I never claimed to know your opinion.

Apparently both of us have problems with reading comprehension and paranoia.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Great. Next time I post an article from this series, I'll remember to get

your permission and input beforehand.

[HuckleB]

38. Thanks for the tantrum.

Talk about off topic.

Are you trying to hijack this thread?

[HuckleB]

17. Anecdotes are great, but home birth may be as safe as hospital birth.

...especially for low-risk pregnancies, with a planned home birth.

Outcomes of planned home births with certified professional midwives: large prospective study in North America
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7505/1416?ehom

Giving birth: home can be better than hospital:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7505/0-a

Outcome of planned home and planned hospital births in low risk pregnancies: prospective study in midwifery practices in the Netherlands:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7068/1309

[beam me up scottie]

20. That's not what he is saying and not the point of the article.

"Filipa is now pregnant again and we’re thrilled. She has chosen to be in hospital for the birth — even though it wasn’t actually giving birth at home that meant things went wrong. My feelings of guilt still haven’t gone. Maybe I’ll have absolution when we find out what Jaspar’s future will be."

[HuckleB]

22. That's one small line from one of the articles you posted.

I've been down this road too many times with people who post the stuff you posted in an attempt to dismiss home birth en masse. So let's not play games.

Thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Wow, miss the point much?

Trotsky didn't, maybe you should read his post before you accuse me of "playing games".

What a stupid thing to say.

[HuckleB]

26. Sheesh.

It's clear that you missed my point, that's for sure. You rant about the anti-science crowd at DU, but can't see the forest for the trees when you post stuff like this "to make a point."

I guess you're just smarter than the rest of us.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Go peddle your paranoia elsewhere.

This is one of a series of articles that shows that ignorance and belief in superstitions in lieu of medical attention can cause harm.

IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE
IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE
IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE
IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE
IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE
IT IS NOT ABOUT HOME BIRTHING BEING UNSAFE

Get it yet?

[Celebration]

32. Then On (Your) Topic in This Thread

Yes, incorrect belief systems can cost people their lives. As an example, people who believed that the FDA and pharmaceutical industries have enough checks and balances and are based on scientific rigor took Vioxx because they believed in the system, and ended up with heart disease.

There.....on (your) topic.

I know you are glad to get back on topic.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Sorry, actual medicine does not require "belief" in order to save lives.

You are alive today because of science, not because of superstition and wanna-be healers.

[Celebration]

39. Just pointing out

This "answer" was not responsive to my post.

[beam me up scottie]

40. OK, calling trust in the knowledge of medical science a "belief system" :

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[HuckleB]

33. Yeah, a long time ago.

You didn't get that from my posts? Struggle with context much? You do realize that you are now doing exactly that which you are ranting about me doing, don't you?

[beam me up scottie]

35. What, accusing you of posting an anti-home birth thread?

Not following the advice of a physician, treating a medical condition with herbs & other home remedies, and not consulting a medical professional during a difficult delivery harmed this child.

Nowhere does the father blame what happened to his son on home delivery.

[HuckleB]

37. Blah. Blah. Blah.

You posted two pieces, first of all. Second, I didn't accuse you. Third, and again, can't get the context of my posts?

Too bad. That old comprehension thing is sure hard to beat.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Your words:

"The point?
Except "getting the point" (your supposed point) in regard to home birth in online discussions, means ignoring far too much experience, where individuals use every case they can find to dismiss home birth en masse."

Again, Trotsky got it but maybe he's exceptional.

Good thing you're going into exile, I plan on posting more "What's the Harm" pieces and I wouldn't want to have to explain every one of them to you when you have a hissy fit.

[Skinner]

44. Locking

No threads about pseudoscience permitted. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x10346