Why do some folks on DU hate Science (mostly Space Science?)

[Meldread]

I don't get it. We have learned SO much from our study of outer space. Our knowledge of the Universe and our place in it has expanded hundreds of thousands of times just in the past few decades... and yet... some folks hate it with a passion? Why? Why do people think going to space and the study of space is a waste of time and resources?

I must be outta the loop for some reason, but it seems that people are unusually hostile toward space-science. Maybe folks don't realize the benefit, like the fact that the Earth will someday be uninhabitable (with or without Human intervention). Or the fact that a giant comet or asteroid could smash into Earth most likely at any time -- it's like a giant game of cosmic Russian roulette. Or the fact that the space we have here on Earth is finite. Or the invaluable knowledge we gain from studying other bodies in our solar system -- how it gives us glimpses into how the Earth has formed and what could possibly be Earth's future. Maybe folks just don't see that, or maybe they just don't care. I'm not sure which.

[seriousstan]

1. Because some folks are miserable, whining recluses

who complain as if it is a badge of honor.

[Psephos]

2. It happens across the rest of society, too.

Humans tend to either fear or dismiss that which they don't understand.

Peace.

[Bluzmann57]

3. Don't know

But I'm all for space exploration. I'm old enough to remember Neil Armstrong walking on the moon. It was great and it'd be neat to see again, now that I'm older and wiser(?).

[meisje]

4. It seems people here would just rather complain

If something is posted about space, the only comments I ever see are about sending Bush to the planet or if it has oil.

[w13rd0]

5. I am not one of them...

...I'm all for human space exploration. I think we must, as a species, get our "eggs" out of one basket. We have the technology to do so, but not the will or vision. And it certainly won't happen with the present administration.

[shraby]

6. I watch du pretty close and I don't remember

anyone dissing the space program. As far as I could see, most of us are pretty excited at what they are finding out.

[bahrbearian]

10. Thats what I say...WTF... I've never ran across that yet!

[meisje]

7. Big news on Tuesday about Mars seasonal changes...

Some speculate it may be about recent or current flowing liquid!!!!

[BlueJac]

8. I love Space Science....

I just want to know how to send Bush to Mars!

[Tace]

9. This Isn't Just A DU Thing

I'm a major space lover. You'll find the same stupidity across all of American society. 99% of people simply have their heads planted firmly up their butts.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. If you are talking about

the recent thread about postponing the moon initiative until NO is rebuilt (my suggestion) it isn't because I don't approve of space travel. But sometimes stuff happens and hard decisions have to be made about money. This Katrina situation is unique.

Gee, maybe there's a way to combine the two?

[Tace]

12. Hi TallahasseeGrannie -- I'll Go Find Your Thread

Yet, so few people understand the imperative utility of getting off-planet.

We simply must get off the planet ASAP. WE MUST.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Very scary thought

I hear you... but geez. We'd have to like live underground or something, right?

Yikes.

[Tace]

15. No, I'm Not Saying That At All

It's just that we're not promised tomorrow.

I know how goofy I sound about this. But, its extremely important that we colonize off the planet. Most folks don't seem to understand just how improbable and fragile is human civilization.

[A Simple Game]

16. We simply must get off the planet ASAP.

Did I miss the memo? Why must we leave, I like my home and family. That being said I support space exploration, i'm just getting too old to do it myself.

I can think of some people who I wouldn't mind being sent to another planet, inhabitable or not.

[Tace]

18. OK -- A Little Context

The only reason why humans should seek to get off the planet is if we intend to survive.

Survival of the species.

[A Simple Game]

20. If they make you go off planet the terrorist have won!

I'm all for space exploration, but if we have problems here perhaps we should look for the solutions here.

And what if the Martians don't greet us with flowers and candy, but set up an underground resistance? Would we even recognize Martian flowers, they may look like weapons!

[Meldread]

22. Maybe you can tell that to the Sun...

...when it finishes burning up all it's hydrogen and becomes a Red Giant.

A rough idea of what will happen after the Sun becomes a Red Giant:
Venus and Mercury will both be gone. They would be engulfed by the sun.

The Earth itself will either meet that fate as well, as the billions upon billions of Humans all scream out at once as they spontaneously combust into flames and the planet is utterly consumed in a blast of fiery death. Or the expanding Sun may thrust Earth out of Orbit sending us hurling into space, causing the Earth to turn into a complete ball of ice. Or it will simply cause the oceans to boil and bubble as it begins to expand and cause forests and all life on land to spontaneously combust from the heat, causing us to look similar to a hybrid of modern day Venus and Mars (assuming that it doesn't blow away our atmosphere). No matter which of these scenarios happens life on Earth will be non-existent.

That's the future of Earth: It doesn't have one. Maybe Humans want to stay on Earth and die with the planet, but I personally would like to see the Human Race as a whole or in part survive.

[A Simple Game]

23. Wow, what can I say.

I can't wait, hope I am around to see which of your scenarios turns out to be true.

Of course I would then be a few million years old and probably the smartest person alive. Smart enough to solve the problem? Oh, I think so!

We do have more immediate problems, don't we?

All of this talk reminds me of when I was just a little lad and heard about Sputnik being launched and orbiting the earth. I thought that was the neatest thing. Couldn't understand why people thought it was a problem that the Soviets were the ones to launch it.

Maybe all of the people problems will be solved once we are in space! Let's hope so, we aren't doing a very good job on this planet, are we?

[Meldread]

24. You miss the point.

You miss the point entirely. We have the same problem right now on a smaller scale: Global Warming. We were unprepared, and then after we found out we drag our feet on it. Now it appears that we are reaching a point of no return.

It's so good to see that you care about future generations. :sarcasm:

You seem to think that all the problems involving Humans will ever be solved. If we waited for that, we might as well just go ahead and commit mass suicide. It'd be a lot quicker and probably a lot less painful in the long run.

Oh, you could argue that eventually Humans will come to some solution to fix the problem after we're both long and dead. Sure, Humans might. However, that requires knowledge -- and by golly isn't that what we are trying to do right now? Gather knowledge so that future generations will be able to use it? How convenient and thoughtful of us.

[A Simple Game]

25. I didn't miss the point.

I don't think it is the point.

I learned long ago that running away won't solve your problems. Facing them and acknowledging them will.

I love space and space exploration, but don't tell me that in the short term space research will solve anything but some of our technological problems.

If you don't want to admit that we have people problems here, and that many of those people problems are causing our planet problems(global warming, etc.), then you miss the point. If you can't fix our problems here we just take them with us, why ruin another planet!

[Meldread]

27. Once again, you missed the point.

Point to a specific date when all the worlds problems will be solved and it will be "suitable" for Humans to continue space exploration? You can't set a date, because Humanity will *always* have problems. That's the nature of life. Do you suggest that every time something bad happens that we drop our long term goals to worry about short-term problems?

I'm not sure about you, but I believe the Human Race as a whole is capable of doing more than one thing at once. Space-Science will always revolve around long term goals, because that's how science as a whole works. It's all about gaining knowledge, most of which will have little immediate benefit to the Human who discovered it, but will have benefit to future generations. Then those future generations will build upon the knowledge that we found, gaining little immediate benefit from their discoveries, and so forth and so on.

My life won't be dramatically altered by Spirit or Opportunity on Mars, but as a result of Spirit or Opportunity perhaps my Great-Great-Grandchildren's lives might be altered and changed as a result (hopefully for the better).

[A Simple Game]

30. Once again, I don't think it is the point.

You and I both know there is no "specific" date, but a general date for all of our problems being solved will be some time after we acknowledge them, and start working on them.

Okay, give me a specific date when we will be able to leave Planet Earth. That is when we can ignore the short term problems and concentrate on the long term problems. Some of those short term problems can kill you, ask the soldiers in Iraq, or the people in the gulf region of our own country. Dead people can't explore for new homes in space.

I also believe the human race can do more than one thing at a time. In some cases that is the problem. Do I think * can invade Syria before we leave Iraq? Why, yes I do. I would be happy to let you have half of the money we spend each week in Iraq for space exploration, the other half for more mundane uses. You just have to first get us out of there, simple isn't it.

I remember our space race with the soviets. Americans felt a sense of freedom during the Kennedy presidency that allowed them to want to explore. Sadly it didn't last very long. The sixties were the best times of my life, I guess it was an age thing.

Guess what, I have Grandchildren, four grandsons. I am more worried about them being able to feed themselves, and have a decent life without having to fight someones useless war(s) than I am worried about the sun exploding.

Don't worry, Humans will return to space, and possibly even occupy another planet some day. That is if our immediate problems don't kill us first.

If we colonize another planet, can we name it Utopia?

[Meldread]

31. Then this conversation is useless.

You seem to think space science is some how connected to short term problems here on Earth. It isn't. There is no connection outside of economic competition. You seem to believe that if we cut funds for space science that somehow, magically, that money will go and be spent on all these wonderful things and the world will turn into a happy place. It won't. In fact, I can guarantee you that the money will be spent in ways that will only worsen the problems.

You mention Bush invading Syria while also in Iraq. Well free up some cash from the space program and I'm sure he'll be more willing to consider it. After all, do you think he would be more willing to spend that money on helping others when he can help himself?

You completely ignore human nature. Space Science and space exploration isn't just about eventually colonizing other planets. That is a gross over simplification. It's just one of the many important goals. Of all of those goals, none of them involve turning the world into a idyllic Utopia - this one or another one.

You also seem to think Bush will somehow be in charge of anything dealing with space. The fact of the matter is he'll long be out of office by the time anything he approves will be implemented and he will have no control over what happens.

There are only two things that can completely eliminate life on Earth as we know it. The first is a massive natural disaster - a comet or asteroid. The other is an all out nuclear war. There is no need to turn into a chicken little. The War in Iraq isn't going to kill off all of Humanity, nor are the problems down in the Gulf. The only serious threat we have on the horizon is Global Warming, and while that may eventually claim the lives of millions of people due to starvation and lack of fresh water, it will not end life as we know it.

So as for our immediate problems that require our direct undivided attention I don't see any. We can manage nuclear problems as they arise and try and sooth things over - there isn't much more we can do. We can keep tracking and searching for large Earth crossing Asteroids and Comets and prepare for ways to deal with them before they hit us. Ironically the second problem involves space science.

Throwing money at the worlds problems isn't going to solve them. I would hazard to guess that's how most of those problems got created in the first place.

[A Simple Game]

33. Good morning.

No, I didn't mention any connection between short term problems and space science that I can recall. But now that you mention it, maybe the fact that the military has too much say in our space program is a problem?

Bush doesn't need money from the space program, or any other program to start wars, he just puts it on our collective charge card. Myself, I think that is a problem. If we don't fix the deficit problem soon, there won't be money for anything, let alone space science, besides paying off the national debt. I don't recall mentioning taking money from the space program, in fact I recall telling you could have half of what you save for the space program, seems generous to me.

No need to turn into a chicken little. Read my first message in this thread, the one that started this conversation, I was responding to a chicken little. The message I was responding to went something like, "we have to leave ASAP". I think the tone of my messages has been to face our problems, not run away. If I recall you mentioned global warming as a reason we had to leave, now it is only a serious problem. Think we ought to try to fix it? Sounds like a long term problem to me.

"So as for our immediate problems that require our direct undivided attention I don't see any." Maybe not undivided attention, but we better start giving some of these more attention, or there won't be any tomorrow as we would hope to know it. * and company are developing a new generation of nuclear weapons, you don't see a problem with that. I repeat, short term problems can kill you. Tracking large objects in space is necessary and vastly underfunded, no profit in tracking asteroids and comets, is there. And yes I see problems with the rest of the space program as well. Our space program has been taken over by corporations and the military, I think that is a short term problem that needs attention.

Throwing money at problems won't fix them? Seem you want to throw money at the space program. I don't think that will fix the space program either.

[Meldread]

17. It wasn't just that thread.

It was some of the responses in the thread that caused me to post this, but it was also from my experiences in the past with people who seem to be anti space-science. I mean, folks who clearly state that they see no benefit at all for space exploration or discovery.

Maybe, it's because I'm a huge space and science buff and I'm bias. I don't know. I just feel that *everything* we do in space is worth it, simply based on the fact that the more we learn the less we seem to know. If I had just one wish that could only effect me it would be to live for around 600 years so that I could see Humans setup a colony on another planet.

I guess I am bias in a way. I want to see humanity to survive simply because I'm afraid that there might not be other intelligent species like us in the Universe. What if we are the only ones or just one of a small handful, a species that just happened to get lucky in the evolution game? We cannot risk losing everything and stay grounded here. If Humanity is to survive in the long run we must eventually leave Earth. It might not happen in my lifetime, but I at least want to die knowing that the Human Race as a whole will live on.

[preciousdove]

14. DOD took over NASA under Reagan/Ppl Programs on earth slashed

They lost me completely on the "rocks from Mars" they found in the ice on earth just when they needed something to get them more funding.

Space Shuttle is a dinosaur, poorly designed to begin with put together with twine and bailing wire now. Ineffecient means of exploration at this time.

I love space science. I don't believe what our government funded scientists are doing any more in Space, or in medicine.

NASA was a shining star, a boon to humanity until Reagan. (sigh)

[greenman3610]

21. I'm all for science,

I'm all for exploration, "to boldly go where" and all that,
but I've been a bit chilled to hear some folks
say, "Well, since we're destroying this
planet, we'll all just get in rockets and
go to another planet"

We can't even get everyone out of NOLA.

And the fact may be that there are very
few, if any, earthlike planets anywhere
near us, galactically. If there
are any at all. The more astronomers
learn about the exo planets, the
more they realize what a delicately
balanced system ours is, with its mix
of large outer planets, our protective
moon, and our fortunate position in the
galactic arm.

When you imagine that we will just
terraform someplace, or just
find another earth like planet,
think about the problems that
have developed just transplanting organisms
from Europe to America.
And remember that our very bodies are
themselves communities of specialized organisms.
The thought that we can just simply transplant
ourselves in another alien system, or
even safely interact, physically, with any
other planet's inhabitants, is
a much larger stretch than most
Star Trek geeks would imagine.

[lazarus]

37. Why colonise other planets?

Let's just colonise space. Everything we need is there, it's just not in forms we can easily use.

[whalerider55]

19. when i was a kid in the sixties...

i was totally engaged by the space program- inspired, encouraged. it was my way in to the world of science and a perfectly reasonable excuse for dreaming about a future that was based on hope and cooperation.
'
i've since gone on to a long career- thirty years and counting- in human services and education. and still believe every cent we spend on the space program is worth it.. not just because it has the capacity to return so much in technology and knowledge and understanding, but i believe it is a sound investment. during the apollo era, for every dollar we invested 24 bucks were returned in the value of new products and technology.

i think i loved it because the pictures from space never showed earth with any borders- just the amazing and frail vessel we live on.

in some ways, i've often thought that the environmental movement moved into the mainstream (earth day, 1970) after we were able to see what the planet looked like from space.

yeah, i've always heard "we should spend the money on housing, not shooting rockets into space," even when i was working with the homelessness issue. and i figured it this way. spending the money on the space program was the best way to divert it from the defense department- and that weaning ourselves from the binky of tanks and aircraft carriers and looking towards the sky could only help to change the priorities here in the US.

and we can then focus, truly focus on the importance of education, as a means to raise all people up.

i spent most of my life working with people with challenges like mental illness, and addiction, hiv and homelessness. and i believe that a truly humane country,a great country, can find solutions to all problems- from getting a woman to mars to getting a decent math teacher to teach in a ghetto.

cue the John Lennon song.

whalerider

[montegutdude]

26. Dont Fret Over A Firey Death Just Yet

I agree that space science is important and I'd love to see our technology advance to the point that human beings could physically visit other worlds. Star Trekking realized. A Mars mission may seem uninspired by some critics, but it is the first step to the exploration of ....well, the unknown. What an inspiring future vision for humanity that would represent. While I agree with greenman3610 that simply transplanting humans to another world involves a plethora of less-considered consequences simply by our arrival and the absence of our interconnectivity to Earth which is how we came to be, I doubt that this is going to be the most prominent problem facing such an prospect. If human beings can set up shop on a world completely inhospitable to human life, such as a lunar base or a Mars outpost....surely there is a way to cohabit or transplant ourselves to a world which has conditions that actually do support our existence. And I sit in the camp which believes that life...while not "as we know it"....can and must exist on many different worlds as the number of planets in existence seems staggering. There are many other combinations or situations which could bring about Earth-like scenarios involving binary or trinary systems completely independent of our medium sized Sun scenario. The greatest evidence of other life in the universe is our own existence. We made it...Are we really just lucky? I'm sure somewhere out there...something else is thinking the same thing.....possibly with a billion year head start on us.

I wouldn't worry too much about these doom-and-gloom scenarios though, Meldread. You wrote: " A rough idea of what will happen after the Sun becomes a Red Giant: Venus and Mercury will both be gone. They would be engulfed by the sun.

The Earth itself will either meet that fate as well, as the billions upon billions of Humans all scream out at once as they spontaneously combust into flames and the planet is utterly consumed in a blast of fiery death."

I think this way of thinking is a bit premature. No offense. Considering that our sun has a life-expectancy of about 100 billion more years to burn its hydrogen...its certainly not a given that humanity...or hell, anything that even resembles humanity will even be in existence by that time. In a HUNDRED BILLION years...well, lets just say that if you know your evolutionary timelines...and how long it took for modern man to evolve...it will be pretty interesting to see what indeed is screaming "out all at once." It is unlikely it will be human in any sense of that word. The future evolution of humanity is a mystery as we are only guessing, but if we look at where we came from to judge where we are going....you may need to reconsider your red-giant-engulfing-the-Earth scenario just a tad and have some very alien-looking creatures in it. Our descendants from that far down the line will not look much like we do today.

There are many other armageddon scenarios which are much more likely to occur before a hundred billion year timeline. The human race will likely not survive that long.

[Meldread]

28. I know that.

I know that, I was using the Sun engulfing the Earth to dramatize my point that staying on the Earth (in whatever form we evolve into) is a fruitless and pointless endeavor as the Earth is doomed. Therefore making it necessary to have space science.

On an unrelated note, Welcome to DU! :toast: :pals:

[applegrove]

29. Because DU is a poltical forum. People are concerned with the 'world'

when they like politics and are Dems. And it is inherent in loving the "world" that you are not so interested in thing other than the "world".

For many repukes politics is about power and control (as evidenced by studies done that prove conservative are interested in control rather than open ended political results). And there is nothing to have power over & control in the outside Universe except satelites.

[OneBlueSky]

32. I don't hate space science . . . but it's a matter of priorities. . .

we're already running deficits in the hundreds of billions of dollars, and borrowing money just to pay the interest on our national debt (pretty much the definition of bankruptcy) . . . space science can wait until we take care of matters here on Earth . . .

[SaveElmer]

34. Unfortunately that argument is untenable...

As we will never be able to solve all problems here on earth first. When human beings are involved, there will always be problems, there will always be poverty, there will always be natural disasters. When humans are involved, a systems analysis approach will never be able to eliminate these conditions.

Government has an obligation to try and care for as many of those in need as possible, and to aid the weakest among us. But government, by itself, will never be able to eliminate these problems completely. We can't simply stop human progress until unsolvable problems are solved.

By this logic the government ought to stop all pure research, shut down the NEA, and the NEH, and every other superfluous program not directly related to these priorities. Yet whenever Republicans try and eliminate the NEA we hear a hue and cry here about it.

Big business ought to stop trying to shove new and better versions of tooth paste down our throats, or convince us we smell bad, or are overweight, or have to have the latest kind of sneaker. We as a society spend alot more money on these endeavors than is spent on the space program. Yet I hear no calls here for calls to end corporate advertising.

Space is the next step, it is where human talent and energy will be concentrated. Eventually it is where many will have to move. It inspires people. It is no mystery why the Smithsonian Air and Space museum is the most popular tourist attraction in DC. And we are now reaping the benefits of a whole generation of kids who grew up inspired by the space program. Kids who have used that inspiration to develop the technology that has bettered our quality of life.

The modest amount we are spending on the space program (The Pentagon spends the equivelent of the NASA yearly budget in two weeks), is well worth it in my opinion.

[Phoonzang]

36. Here, Here...

That was a good summary of why it is important to pursue space travel. It depresses me when I hear liberals talking about "solving the problems here first". That'll never happen and why the hell should we stop all scientific progress because there are problems here?

If anything space is a possible escape from a dying planet.

[Bill McBlueState]

35. this *is* a problem.

As an astronomer, I'm also troubled by people's lack of interest in the world beyond the atmosphere. I think the way people feel is due in part to the way math and science are taught to young people, as an unorganized body of facts with no useful purpose. It takes a special type of educator to convince kids that science is worth studying. Part of the problem too is that people are much more easily misled if they lack the critical thinking skills that science teaches, so corporate and political figureheads have a vested interest in making people hostile to science.

I find that listing technological benefits isn't very convincing. The best example of that is the "space shuttle brought us Tang and pens that write upside down" line of reasoning that I heard a lot in the eighties. People tend to think that these advancements (if you call Tang an advancement!) would have happened with or without space science.

What I usually say is that astronomy and space science are important cultural activities. Just as a healthy culture supports art and music, a healthy culture supports basic science. The richest country in the world should be able to fund basic science AND feed the hungry. Poverty remains with us because the government doesn't want to do anything about it, not because the money's all going to astronomers. It's natural to be curious about the planet's origins and future, and about the nature of the galaxy and universe. And it takes a bit of money to satisfy that curiosity. Of course, basic research *is* an important driver of technology, but this isn't the primary reason for doing it.

As was mentioned upthread, the annual budget of NASA and the NSF astronomy division is a small, small fraction of what gets spent on national "defense." If people are concerned about government waste, that's where they should be looking.

[electron_blue]

38. great point!

Now I have a rejoinder, thanks to you, the next time someone brings up the "I think we should fight poverty instead" line.