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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:00 PM
Original message
What should NASA do now?
For anyone who doesn't already know, the Shuttles are being retired. They'll be done before the end of the decade.

So what now?

Well, I think it's time to build a SERIOUS space station, and I don't mean just another orbiting truck stop. I mean an environment for long term living, with the living/working quarters spun up to give artificail gravity via angular momentum and park the thing at L1.

At the same time, it's time for a real moon base. The moon is going to be the jump-off point for the rest of the solar system, not Earth and it's in large part due to the vastly smaller gravity well.

With a real space station at L1, a real moon base and possibly more stations at the other Lagrange Points, we'll be in a position to colonize the entire system.
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jrw14125 Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dumya already proposed this - they're working on proposals now I think
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. I wasn't aware that he'd proposed anything on that scale. n/t
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XNASA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. The ISS is a serious Space Station.
The problem has been with funding and with getting an orbiter to dock with it on a regular basis.

Obviously, a Moon base is needed if we're to continue on to Mars.

I disagree that we need a Space Station with artificial gravity. The whole point of conducting science and research in space is to take advantage of microgravity.

I'm kinda glad I left the Space Program when I did, in 2001. It would have been a real drag to sit around for so long, doing next to nothing.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. No, I'm talking about a whole 'nother scale.
In terms of the cost, this would be a decades long project. I don't think that would be a serious barrier.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. If the plan were to eventually do a Mars mission
Then wouldn't a base at L1 make more sense?

Buzz Aldrin makes that suggestion and a few more in this article:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-03zzu.html
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XNASA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. A space station at L1 makes only slightly more sense....
Edited on Fri Apr-21-06 09:03 AM by XNASA
...than one in low-earth orbit.

I suppose the advantage of a station at L1 is that it can maintain it's orbit with the least amount of fuel, etc. It's also easier to maintain quiescence over long periods of time, which really helps a lot when conducting research. However, L1 is a tough environment. Obviously, it would take more time to get there or back and it would be pounded by 3 or 4 times the amount of radiation that a station in low-earth orbit is.

I'll bet we see a moon base before we ever see a station at L1.

We should move ahead, no doubt. And we need a new lift system, probably a couple of different ones. One for payload, one for crew, and yet another for rescue.

I love Buzz even though NASA tries to keep him at arms length. I got to work with him a couple of times and he's really passionate. Although I must admit, my favorite astro is, and will always be, Story Musgrave.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. I used to be all for manned space flight
but lately, thanks to the success of the Mars Rovers and the MGS I'm fully on board with robotic space exploration. We're jumping the gun with manned flight, it's too expensive and dangerous. I think the nanotube space elevator needs to be built and functional before manned missions make sense.
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scubadude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I second that.
I was against the Space Shuttle before it was made. They axed something like 27 robotic
missions to fund the shuttle. It has never realised the promised goal of cheap routine
operation.

Robotic missions can do virtually anything manned missions do at a fraction of the cost.

Why don't we learn what we can, as much as we can, quickly? Keep the budget as it is now
but make them robotic missions. Many missions. Lets learn.

Scuba
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I'll tell you why.
You brought up a question that could essentially be summed up as; "Why don't we just use robots to learn about our solar system.

It's because we're explorers. That's what we DO.

I'm not saying that we can't do robotic exploration, but that's not the point. I know that "Manifest Destiny" is a controversial term, for some very good reasons, but I also truly believe that it is mankind's destiny to spread out across our own star system and then head out among the stars to meet other spacefaring species.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Regardless of the payload, we're still exploring if it's a robot
or a human. For the most part human payload is just expensive and dangerous ballast. That's not to say we can't send humans in the future, but IMO it's a waste of resources right now in our technological infancy.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I would add another reason
which is that if you could get a small team of human geologists and biologists on Mars, we'd learn more in a month than fifty years of robot probes will ever tell us.

And another, bigger-picture reason. Planet-bound species are fated for extinction, one way or another. Star-faring species are not.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Damn Skippy!
"Planet-bound species are fated for extinction, one way or another. Star-faring species are not."


Couldn't agree more.
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scubadude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I disagree mostly
Edited on Fri Apr-21-06 06:26 PM by scubadude
Robotic missions can do virtually anything that manned ones can do, except kill the people
aboard it.

One of my favorite missions that was canceled because of shuttle problems and
overruns. It was a mission to land on a comet and bring pieces of it back. Wouldn't that
have been cool?

The cost per mission for human exploration is scores of magnitudes higher than
robotic missions. If our goal is pure knowledge then that is the obvious way
to go.

The "we do it because we can" or "we're explorers" attitude is what has led to things like the star
wars missile defense program and the death of numerous cultures. We need to think before we act.
If you think you can trust the government, just ask an American Indian...

I am not ruling out human presence in space totally. Just the extremely expensive
space shuttle like boondoggles, especially a trip to mars. I agree that the international
space station should be continued and expanded. Perhaps a base on the moon would be next, eventually.
One small step (one giant leap for mankind) at a time.

Have you ever touched a piece of the moon? Mars? You can buy both if you look hard enough.

http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/AZ_Skies_Links/Dhofar_XXXX/index.html

http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/AZ_Skies_Links/NWA_998_Nakhlite/index.html

I own a small collection of meteorites, and have seen thousands fall.

Scuba

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Well...
try telling a field-geologist that he has to do all his work by remote-control, using a copy of the "spirit" probe. Then make him stay at home, and fed-ex him a few samples of rock to study. Then get back to me about how a robot probe is as effective as an on-site human :-)

I'm no fan of the shuttles. They were a mistake. But NASA is cancelling missions because their budget is pathetic, and because the public doesn't understand the relative scale of numbers, for the purpose of comparing things like NASA's budget, and how much we spend each day in Iraq, or paying interest on the national debt, etc.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Machines don't think
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 09:41 AM by DrGonzoLives
Period. That's why they will always be inferior to human beings for exploration. The best AI we can come up with these days creates a machine mind the equivalent of a developmentally-challenged three-month old.

A machine can do one thing only, follow programming. They cannot react, they cannot deviate, they cannot respond to situations not programmed into their circuits. That is why we need human exploration.

The "we do it because we can" or "we're explorers" attitude is what has led to things like the star wars missile defense program and the death of numerous cultures.

Wha? How the hell did a yearning to explore lead to star wars missle defense? There is absolutely no fact or logic to back this up.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. No we wouldn't
Our robots have better eyes than human, better ears than humans... That's why humans use tool. No human will ever walk around Mars for a few months. Heck a few days will lead to serious radiation exposure. Inside a bulky space suit they'll be happy to get anything done. Humans will (are) exploring the solar system and the universe. But it will be our robots that do it.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. See my "Machines don't think" post
n/t
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. ck out this excellent doc & site
Arsenal of Hypocrisy (.org,I think).. then I want to talk..
BtW! spaceweather.com says 'Lynid meteor' storm, 20th-22nd of this month.. pieces s'posed to hit the Moon,leave 'trails & sparks', visible to backyard star-gazers :) I LOVE this stuff..
ps. Kucinich is already proposing a Bill "to KEEP the Heavens for PEACEFUL Purposes".
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. I thought L5 was the perfect position?
I remember years ago (in the 70s) that my little brother belonged to the "L5 Society" -- I think I still have one of the little buttons (white, with a blue 'L5' printed on it).

And I think they should start building the big rocket ships to take us to that perfectly terra-formed planet they're going to find - and fix up for us . . .
kidding.

I think your's is a good idea.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank You. n/t
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. I would like to see NASA help out with this project:
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. NASA has a serious funding crisis
THere have been large proposed cuts in most of the programs to support the Moon/Space station missions. The Astrobiology program is facing a 50% cut alone. What we are seeing is the transformation of NASA into just another defense contractor. What one gets is a bunch of meaningless missions to maintain the ISS and nothing more. Very little science actually gets done at the ISS- if you look back over this thread you will see that almost everything NASA related comes from either the observation missions (i.e. HST), ground based experimentation (i.e. exobiology/astrobiology- Stardust mission) or probes. ISS is extremely expensive to maintain. And building another one, or a moon base, will be orders of magnitude more expensive. Unfortunately, given how * has F**ked up the Budget, I doubt that NASA will be given multi-billion dollar increases to do this. The pattern unfortunately will be to keep the programs that keep Boeing happy and toss the others, even though the other stuff is what informs and guides the bigger missions.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. Slash the Pentagon budget by 80%, half for Nasa and other science...
programs, half for social programs, like UHC, etc.

This is so, using international cooperation we would be able to build one of these:



Build a fleet of these:



And a bunch of other stuff, including the station you thought up of, A radio space telescope on the Far Side of the Moon would go a LONG ways to understanding the Universe, and could also have scheduled looks for possible Alien intelligence.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. looks like Celestia
How do you get Celestia to do stuff like that?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Easy, put files you find on this site...
Edited on Sat Apr-22-06 11:09 PM by Solon
http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/

uncompress them then put the folders they make into the "extras" folder in the Celestia main folder(CHECK THE READMES, that's important!). Make sure you have the latest version though(1.4.1), it decreases the chances of incompatibilities. If you want to know what I used for these two files, the X2010 ESA, NASA, NASDA ships is under fictional:crafts and stations, and The Needle(Space Elevator) is under the same area of the website. These are OUTSIDE the "themed" sci-fi sections, Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, 2001 and Arcbuilders universes. Other interests are better textures for your planets and stars, including Sol, hell, I zoom close enough to Sol and I see animated solar flares. As far as the pictures, simple screen captures under Linux.

A couple of things, first, I did NOT make these files for Celestia, just used them and since a lot of the stuff related to space are mentioned on this site is theoretical, this program is PERFECT for illustrating the possibilities, especially when RUNNING it rather than viewing these screen shots. Hell, you should see the program now, with the Updated comet data on the site above, under Solar System:Comets, you can see those three comet fragments approach Earth, in Real Time. Granted, not a hundred percent realistic, the distances are correct, but the tails for these comet fragments are exaggerated, so you can see them easily while in orbit of the Earth. Takes some spinning around though. If you want a pic of that, I got that too, from a previous post, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=83475#83497

Also, here's another post where I introduced Celestia, including other pics.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x19806

ON EDIT: Some of these pics, especially the Horizon pictures, may seem unreal, the Mars one was done using yet another addon, one for Vallis Marinaris(probably spelled that wrong), that rendered it in 3D on the planet, but only for the valley, not a full 3D topographical map of the WHOLE planet, my system would have crashed and caught on fire if I tried that. :)

Basic trick for getting horizon shots, this works for any planet, moon, or even spacecraft, though for the spacecrafts, their radius is usually so small it takes a LONG time to zoom in. OK, so zoom into the planet until its surface is about ten or twenty kilometers away from you, the distance becomes an altimeter of sorts. OK, cool trick, your "spacecraft" can change views without you deselecting the planet you are focusing on. So, what you do is hit down on the arrow keys on the keyboard, this moves the Point of View up, like an aircraft, hold it down till you get a halfway decent horizon going on. Now, assuming you have a mouse with a wheel on it, you click that forward a few times, and the horizon shifts upward, you are moving CLOSER to the planet. Eventually you will see the surface disappear if you get too close, so keep a distance of about 2 or 3 kilometers at the minimum. OK, so another trick, because if you look at the surface, it appears to move below you as it spins, as if you are floating above the planet, and not really connected to it. So let's say, from the spot you are on, you want to see a Sunrise or Sunset, right-click on the surface of the planet and sync your orbit with it, this way you move as the planet spins, giving the effect that you are standing on it, rather than floating around it.

Basic controls for you "spacecraft" arrow keys next to ctrl, up points the nose down, down points the nose up, like an airplane, right and left yaw, or rotate the view, in those directions, changing the horizon angle. If you want actual lateral movement of the camera, that's what the Numpad arrows are for, numbers 4 and 6 turns the camera left or right. Up and down still works the same way.

Other experiments, hit the F8 button on the keyboard, and these controls, in addition to acceleration and deceleration are now turned over to whatever joystick you have connected to your computer. This is cool too, you could "fly" through space, pretending you are on a FTL spacecraft, you can move at many thousands of times the speed of light, though at this speed, you can find yourself out of the Galaxy really quickly. OK, just a couple of suggestion, play around with it, download a few other people's solar systems and custom models, both based on real life and sci-fi, and have fun. Hell, add hit detection, a good story, and a couple of other elements, and you would have a kickass scifi shooter or exploration game.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. IMO, we need to establish a permenant base on the moon.
We need to keep moving forward. I think it's part of our evolution to leave this planet, for the long-term.

I know many liberals don't agree with that view (base on the moon), but I think things like that are important for the human psyche. It inspires hope, and it's a natural progression of what we can achieve if we work together.
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
25. They need to dump the shuttles right now...
...instead of a few years down the line. Its not as if they're ever going to fly again. Launch dates will just keep getting pushed back and in the mean time precious money is being wasted maintaing the things. Hopefully a replacement (that's not a POS) can be found by 2010 like the NASA administrator wants.

In the mean time they should continue to develop alternative technologies like the space elevator. This launching payloads in to orbit on rockets thing has got ta go... Though I suppose the space elevator is being developed by private companies now. Not so sure that's good...if they find that they can't make profit off a technology in the immiediate future, some companies just toss it.

Also, go straight to the moon and forget that space station. Don't quote me on this, but I think they should let the thing re-enter. It's not doing very much good. However, THIS is an area where private companies can help. I imagine there's much profit to be made in true space tourism as opposed to that depressingly limited SpaceShipOne project (doesn't go into orbit, therefore doesn't count as space tourism).

Where will we get this money you say? Well how about we stop building B-2 bombers and other such craft? Hmm....slow, expensive stealth plane to bomb people in caves vs go Moon/Mars...hard choice eh?

As to liberal support of space exploration, I tend to worry about that. While support of the space program is bi-partisan, many liberals have the whole "let's fix things here first" attitude. The problem is, we'll never completely fix things "here" (I assume they mean Earth) and we can't just stop all scientific progress because there are problems around us. There's also the space-imperialism charge. Well um....hello? There's no space indians in the immediate neighborhood. So who's being exploited and who's being hurt? No one. Those aliens in the various bases and colonies spread around the solar system are advanced enough to take care of themselves and deal with us primitves. :rofl: <----puts emoticon to make it look like he's joking and therefore preserve his credibility.
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