How The Hippies Saved Physics

[bananas]

Interesting interview.
edit to add: "The Space Show" is a webcast show which normally interviews people in the space industry.
"at one point during the discussion, we were able to extrapolate comparisons to what is happening in the space workforce today"

http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/dr-david-kaiser-friday-8-5-11/

Dr. David Kaiser, Friday, 8-5-11 August 5, 2011

mp3: http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/1603-BWB-2011-08-05.mp3

Guest: Dr. David Kaiser. Topic: This is the fascinating story of “a band of freewheeling physicists who defied the imperative to ‘shut up and calculate’ and helped to rejuvenate modern physics (quoted from Dr. Kaiser’s website).” You are invited to comment, ask questions, and discuss the Space Show program/guest(s) on the Space Show blog, http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com. Comments, questions, and any discussion must be relevant and applicable to Space Show programming. Transcripts of Space Show programs are not permitted without prior written consent from The Space Show (even if for personal use) & are a violation of the Space Show copyright. For more information as well as contacting our guest, visit the book website, www.hippiessavedphysics.com. Dr. Kaiser started us off with an overview of interest in physics and science since his childhood days, his discovery of the book “The Tao of Physics” by Fritjof Capra, then on into college and being excited by quantum theory and Bell’s Theorem. At this point in the discussion, Dr. Kaiser provided us with a brief overview of the history of physics from the end of WWII to the 60′s and early 70′s. As you will hear, the lay of the landscape was changing radically due to the economy, the Vietnam War, DOD basic research funding and other issues. In fact, at one point during the discussion, we were able to extrapolate comparisons to what is happening in the space workforce today though for different reasons. Dr. Kaiser then took us into the world of the Fundamental Fysiks Group centered around Berkeley, CA. Quoting from the book’s website, “in the 1970s, amid severe cutbacks in physics funding, a small group of underemployed physicists in Berkeley decided to throw off the constraints of academia and explore the wilder side of science. Dubbing themselves the “Fundamental Fysiks Group,” they pursued an unconventional, speculative approach to physics. They studied quantum theory alongside Eastern mysticism and psychic mind-reading, discussing the latest developments while lounging in hot tubs. Unlikely as it may seem, their work on Bell’s theorem and quantum entanglement helped pave the way for today’s breakthroughs in quantum information science.” Our discussion from this point forward talked about the personalities of those making up the Fundamental Fysiks Group, the consciousness and New Age movements in the San Francisco Bay Area and stretching down the coast to the Esalen Institute at Big Sur, CA. In our first segment, Dr. Kaiser talked about this group, their backgrounds, doing the calculations but also caring about the philosophy & the understanding of the science. In the second segment, John from Atlanta called to talk about Einstein & others and their relationship to quantum physics. John & our guest talked about the EPR Experiment, Bell’s Theorem, & the concept that nothing moves faster than light. Our guest went into more detail regarding the counterculture physicists & a listener asked how this early unorthodox work contributed to the science of physics today. Don’t miss what Dr. Kaiser said about this. As our discussion was coming to an end, Dr. Kaiser was asked if it was possible to bend the laws of physics or if other laws of physics might exist elsewhere in the universe. Again, don’t miss his response to this listener question. Post your comments & questions on the blog URL above. You can email Dr. Kaiser through the book webpage provided above. Above all, you will really enjoy this book & you will likely learn a history that is not that all familiar to most of us.

About Dr. Kaiser:

http://www.hippiessavedphysics.com/author/



David Kaiser is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he teaches in the Program in Science, Technology, and Society and the Department of Physics. He completed Ph.D.s in theoretical physics and the history of science at Harvard University.

His work has been featured in such magazines as Science, Nature, Harper’s, Scientific American, and the London Review of Books; on National Public Radio and NOVA television programs; and in specialist journals in physics and history. Kaiser is author of the award-winning book, Drawing Theories Apart: The Dispersion of Feynman Diagrams in Postwar Physics (2005), which traces how Richard Feynman’s idiosyncratic approach to quantum theory entered the mainstream.

In 2010 he was elected a Fellow of the American Physical Society. Other honors include the Leroy Apker award from the American Physical Society; the Pfizer Prize from the History of Science Society for best book in the field; the Harold Edgerton Faculty Achievement Award from MIT; and several teaching awards from Harvard and MIT.

His MIT website, featuring many of his other publications, is online here.

[villager]

1. Given what else the Hippies have been proven right about - pretty much everything - it's no surprise

;-)

[JackSarfatti]

32. Correction of error

Fred Wolf and I were never hippies.
Nick Herbert was the only real hippie.

[JackSarfatti]

33. Updates on the physics from the future

To keep up with the latest developments see my Facebook page and my blog at Stardrive.org

[frogmarch]

35. Welcome to DU,

even if you don't happen to be theoretical physicist Jack Sarfatti. :hi:

Are you theoretical physicist Jack Sarfatti?

[LongTomH]

36. Let me add my welcome!

I'd love to see you post here and add your comments!

[FirstLight]

2. right ON!

love it...gonna have to read the book!

(saving this for later, thanks!) :hippie:

[drokhole]

3. The hippies also can be thanked for modern computing

Early Computing's Long, Strange Trip
Source: American Scientist

John Markoff's What the Dormouse Said (the title is taken from the lyrics of the Jefferson Airplane song "White Rabbit") tells the story of the important period when the personal computer and the Internet as we know them came into being. He also describes how a new culture of drugs, sex and rock and roll was created at the same time as the computers, sometimes in the same rooms, by some of the same people. Some readers may be shocked by the degree to which the design of modern computing was a central component of the 1960s counterculture in Northern California.
...
Markoff's book covers the years 1960 to 1975 and the area south of San Francisco around Stanford University that would later come to be known as Silicon Valley. I arrived in Palo Alto in 1980, after the period described in the book, but got to know most of the people Markoff depicts. I can report that if anything, he underplays the degree to which they behaved in ways that would today be considered outrageous and radical, and what I saw was said to have been mild compared with what had come before.

The book captures what can only be called the funkiness of the time and place. I well remember the boomerang-shaped Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, hidden in the hills, at once a futuristic science-fiction vision and a dangerous, dilapidated mess that would be considered unfit for human use in the current climate of liability litigation. Masses of wires blossomed out of the rear ends of hot, giant early computers, looking rather like the hair on the heads of the engineers building them. The ragged, broken walls and ceilings were softened by the hippie décor and the fragrance of marijuana and candles, which created a warm ambience. And yes, there were drugs and naked people in the rooms where some of the code that now drives your e-mail around the globe was first set down. The people who conceived of critical aspects of modern computing moved in the same social circles as the musicians who became the Grateful Dead and the people who invented drug "tripping" and New Age spirituality.


And that's not to mention that Francis Crick is said to have deduced arguably the greatest discovery in biology while on LSD - the double-helix structure of DNA.


It seems, under proper set and setting (or, as Aldous Huxley put it, while "in good health, under proper conditions and in the right spirit"), that our brightest minds and greatest scientists would benefit a great deal from taking psychedelics on occasion. During this "free time," they would be allowed to converse, record, and explore anything and everything that manifests. Huxley saw science and mysticism as overlapping and complementary realms (just as the OP suggests), and found "in a world where education is predominantly verbal, highly educated people find it all but impossible to pay serious attention to anything but words and notions" - and that psychedelics were a way that could help them breakthrough that barrier and lead to deeper insight:

"To be shaken out of the ruts of ordinary perception, to be shown for a few timeless hours the outer and the inner world, not as they appear to an animal obsessed with survival or to a human being obsessed with words and notions, but as they are apprehended, directly and unconditionally, by Mind at Large - this is an experience of inestimable value to everyone and especially to the intellectual."

[DrunkenBoat]

18. no they can't.

[drokhole]

19. Wow, thanks for clearing that up

Your assertions are airtight.

[DrunkenBoat]

20. "moving in the same circles" is meaningless. The cia moved in the same circles too.

[drokhole]

21. Your comparison is meaningless, not to mention simple-minded.

[DrunkenBoat]

22. Only because you don't know what i'm talking about.

People doing research funded by the Defense Department & the intelligence services aren't "hippies," no matter how much acid they take -- or give to others.

DOD is where the computer revolution came from -- not hippies.

And the psychedelics that produced the hippie scene came from the same sources.

[drokhole]

23. Have you read the book?

[DrunkenBoat]

24. Stewart Brand: Phillips Exeter, US Army, Pentagon, Stanford, inherited wealth + social register

intel connections + friend of newt gingrich


GRANDPA'S HOUSE


http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/07/12/john-rendon-s-long-strange-trip-in-the-terror-wars/

[drokhole]

25. Thought so.

[DrunkenBoat]

26. Doubt you thought at all. Look at who made the money, who controls the technology,

and where the founders are now.

Not hippies. Hippies had nothing to do with it.

The military-industrial-intelligence-pharmaceutical complex.

Look into the background of any of the big names in early computing & you'll find 1) military 2) ruling class/corporate 3) intelligence connections in 95% of cases.

[drokhole]

27. So you've read the book?

[DrunkenBoat]

28. why do you think i brought up stewart brand?

Psychedelics came from the military complex.

So did computers.

"Hippies" were lab rats in the intersection.

Stewart Brand & his ilk were *never* hippies.

[DrunkenBoat]

29. & ps: you don't have to read the book to know that "the hippies" weren't the

progenitors of "modern computing", despite your assertion that they were.

[JackSarfatti]

34. CIA

We are assets.

[bananas]

38. Welcome to DU!

Are you the real Jack Sarfatti?
A lot of people sign up with the names of people they admire.

[Odin2005]

31. Take your tin foil to the 9/11 dungeon.

[girl gone mad]

4. I read the book recently at the suggestion of a friend..

and really enjoyed it.

[bananas]

8. Thanks for that succinct review and recommendation! nt

[Odin2005]

5. And that's how the Quantum Woo shit got started.

:puke:

[tama]

14. Nah

Philosophical problems of quantum measurement precedes hippie movement by many decades.

Fervent anti-philosophism of the so called sceptic movement of fervent believers in laymans physics they mix up with science is unhippy dogmatism, but very sticky puke as any and all dogmatism tends to be.

[Odin2005]

30. LOL, wut?

[DetlefK]

6. "Shut up and calculate." means actually something totally different

AFAIR Feynman referred to those scientists that fret about their theories, but are unable to make any practical predictions that could be verified experimentally.

It's actually a good advice for politicians and pundits talking about a scientific field, in which they lack any deeper knowledge, like climate change or economics.
"If you claim something, you better be f***ing sure you can prove it."

[Duppers]

37. Correct!

Most in the field know this.

thanks! :)

[Chemisse]

7. Outta sight!

Thanks. I am going to order the book. This is a fascinating topic.

[RainDog]

9. they're both great books.

one that's also interesting related to this subject is The Harvard Psychedelic Club. Not quite so laudatory but also a good look at the personal politics of the time among Weil, Leary, Ram Dass, etc.

[emcguffie]

10. If I beg, will you please put in paragraph breaks? To the first part, that is.

I've tried to read it. But I just can't. So, if I really want to finish reading it, I'll have to copy and paste it into a Word doc and put breaks in myself.

Pretty please?

[bananas]

11. Ok, how's this?

This is the fascinating story of “a band of freewheeling physicists who defied the imperative to ‘shut up and calculate’ and helped to rejuvenate modern physics (quoted from Dr. Kaiser’s website).”

<snip>

Dr. Kaiser started us off with an overview of interest in physics and science since his childhood days, his discovery of the book “The Tao of Physics” by Fritjof Capra, then on into college and being excited by quantum theory and Bell’s Theorem.

At this point in the discussion, Dr. Kaiser provided us with a brief overview of the history of physics from the end of WWII to the 60′s and early 70′s. As you will hear, the lay of the landscape was changing radically due to the economy, the Vietnam War, DOD basic research funding and other issues. In fact, at one point during the discussion, we were able to extrapolate comparisons to what is happening in the space workforce today though for different reasons.

Dr. Kaiser then took us into the world of the Fundamental Fysiks Group centered around Berkeley, CA.
Quoting from the book’s website,

“in the 1970s, amid severe cutbacks in physics funding, a small group of underemployed physicists in Berkeley decided to throw off the constraints of academia and explore the wilder side of science. Dubbing themselves the “Fundamental Fysiks Group,” they pursued an unconventional, speculative approach to physics. They studied quantum theory alongside Eastern mysticism and psychic mind-reading, discussing the latest developments while lounging in hot tubs. Unlikely as it may seem, their work on Bell’s theorem and quantum entanglement helped pave the way for today’s breakthroughs in quantum information science.”

Our discussion from this point forward talked about the personalities of those making up the Fundamental Fysiks Group, the consciousness and New Age movements in the San Francisco Bay Area and stretching down the coast to the Esalen Institute at Big Sur, CA. In our first segment, Dr. Kaiser talked about this group, their backgrounds, doing the calculations but also caring about the philosophy & the understanding of the science.

In the second segment, John from Atlanta called to talk about Einstein & others and their relationship to quantum physics. John & our guest talked about the EPR Experiment, Bell’s Theorem, & the concept that nothing moves faster than light. Our guest went into more detail regarding the counterculture physicists & a listener asked how this early unorthodox work contributed to the science of physics today. Don’t miss what Dr. Kaiser said about this.

As our discussion was coming to an end, Dr. Kaiser was asked if it was possible to bend the laws of physics or if other laws of physics might exist elsewhere in the universe. Again, don’t miss his response to this listener question. Post your comments & questions on the blog URL above. You can email Dr. Kaiser through the book webpage provided above.

Above all, you will really enjoy this book & you will likely learn a history that is not that all familiar to most of us.

[emcguffie]

12. That's a thousand times better.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. Old eyes. Just wait, it'll happen to you, too.

Many, many thanks, and sorry it's so late now.

[emcguffie]

13. And The Dancing Wu Li Masters.

That's the book I personally enjoyed. Maybe it's more dumbed-down for us regular folks, but it was life changing for me.

[Ready4Change]

15. Good enough I actually bothered to read some of it.

My eyes don't even touch walls of text.

[bananas]

16. David Kaiser, Jack Sarfatti, Fred Alan Wolf were on the radio Sunday Sept 18

You can listen to the free ksfo archive until next sunday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1963796&mesg_id=1966786

[DrunkenBoat]

17. the folks doing Defense-funded work on campuses in the 60s weren't hippies.

They may have "moved in the same circles" to some extent, they may have had long hair, but they weren't hippies.