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Stunning New Stunning Study of 300 Galaxies Shows Some Regions of Universe Not Fine-Tuned for Life

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Mr. McD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 03:49 PM
Original message
Stunning New Stunning Study of 300 Galaxies Shows Some Regions of Universe Not Fine-Tuned for Life
"The answer may be that other regions of the Universe are not quite so favourable for life as we know it, and that the laws of physics we measure in our part of the Universe are merely ‘local by-laws', in which case it is no particular surprise to find life here."



http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2011/11/stunning-new-stunning-study-of-300-galaxies-shows-some-regions-of-universe-not-fine-tuned-for-life.html
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. That would really suck. Really, really suck. Useful to know, though. nt
PB
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Gerard O'Neill once said something similar.
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 04:13 PM by Xithras
While he was a huge advocate for human spaceflight and colonization, he did acknowledge the possibility that the entire universe might be hostile to life. We may merely exist in a rare, quiet eddy within an otherwise hostile and deadly universe. Carl Sagan also made similar statements a few times. While human exploration and settlement of the universe is a laudable goal that humanity should be actively pursuing, there's a substantial possibility that our universe may not permit us to do so, and that we may ultimately be limited to our own solar system for the duration of our continued existence as a species.

We won't know for sure until we try.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. so
besides the mind-staggering implications of an infinite universe with one assumes infinite different physical laws/constants, one wonders what happens along the edges where a change in alpha is enough to make a change in the physics of the universe.

Also, if say the speed of light is slower or faster because of a different alpha in one part of the universe, does that mean it speeds up or slows down in another part as it hits an alpha different enough to change C?
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think it means a lot of our astrological and cosmological knowledge goes out the window.
Pretty much all our knowledge about the size, age, and composition of the universe is predicated on the assumption that physical laws don't change based on location.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. From what I know,
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 04:31 PM by Confusious
This is a relatively ( HA! ) new idea, so I'll wait to declare anything. Of course, I'm also biased. I think it sucks! But if enough evidence comes in, I'll accept it with a frown.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. AstroNOMICAL you medieval throwback. :D /nt
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. In a word ---
D'oh!

That's what I get for having the words astronomical and cosmological in my mind at the same time!
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DetlefK Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Anthropocentric bulls**t
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 05:14 PM by DetlefK
Okay, so life as we know it, could not exist in other parts of the universe.

Noticed the problem with that argument? "AS WE KNOW IT"!

Who says, life has to be confined to hydrogen-carbon-nitrogen-oxygen-based chemistry?

Silicone-based life-forms are a well-known Gedankenexperiment. They would heal and grow much slower than carbon-based life, but on the other hand they would live much longer.

What is life? If you break it down, only a few attributes are left:
* thermodynamic system that can stay closed to matter- and energy-exchange for time-spans approx. equal to order of magnitude of time-spans of internal processes
* reproduction
* adaption
* local reduction of entropy

Don't tell me, that life in that sense is impossible just because the building blocks are different.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Silicon does not form long chain molecules like carbon does.
No matter how you cut it, even minimal life demands a certain level of complexity.

And in our part of the universe that means a carbon backbone.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Actually, it does, but that's not the problem.
Edited on Wed Nov-02-11 02:10 AM by eppur_se_muova
Silicon forms long chain molecules which are more reactive under Earthly conditions (air and water) because of the very strong bonds which form between Si and O, and the relative weakness of the Si-H (and even Si-Si) bonds. The ability of Si and heavier elements to form "hypervalent" intermediates -- which have no second-row analogues -- also leads to *faster* bond-cleavage reactions relative to carbon. It's not that hard to make polysilanes in the lab IF you work under an argon line. If they have too many Si-H bonds they tend to be pyrophoric (ignite spontaneously on exposure to air), but in the absence of air and water (and at lower temperatures) they're fine. That's why most of the Si on Earth is in the form of SiO2 or silicates. Even elemental Si is not found naturally on Earth. {ETA: SiC is found as a very rare mineral, Moissanite, in meteorites and some minerals of volcanic origin. That's the closest thing to a reduced form of Si found naturallyon Earth.} (There are, by the way, polygermanes, -stannanes, and even -plumbanes, although the stability of the M-M bond decreases drastically in that order.)

Silicon does not form strong double (or triple bonds), so it cannot form anywhere near the variety of compounds that carbon does. Many molecular architectures adopted by carbon compounds (often with the help of other second-row elements, N & O) have no third-row, Si, analogs, except for a few, highly reactive, lab-created examples. (Most notably lacking are the many "aromatic" molecules formed by C,N, and O rings. All of the nucleic acid (DNA & RNA) bases fall in this category.) Ditto P versus N. So even in a strongly reducing, oxygen-free envirionment, silicon would be a poorer basis for complex structures than carbon.

If you had to design the chemistry of life from scratch, you would start with a second-row element (relatively strong single bonds, also double and triple bonds, no d orbitals so no hypervalency), and one that forms more than one bond at a time (eliminating Li and F). You would want to avoid empty p orbitals (this eliminates Be and B) because these provide a mechanism for attack by other compounds and cleavage of bonds, just as empty d orbitals do; you want your molecules to last. You would want to avoid too many lone pairs because of the 'beta lone pair effect' which leads to weaker bonds, and the 'acetal effect' which also leads to facile fragmentation -- so no long chains or networks containing too many N or O atoms. C only makes up a few hundred ppm of the Earth's crust, but it's the only element that fills the bill. No surprise that we haven't seen any signs of non-carbon based life yet, even under "unearthly" conditions.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry I meant stable. It's a long time since I last read that Asimov...
...essay.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Wow. I need to cut'n'paste that, then study it.
My chemistry education is very weak. But I'd like to write science fiction and would like to feature non-carbon based life. What you posted is the sort of thing I should at least acknowledge to some degree. Even if it's just having a scientist objecting that what they are seeing (or talkign to in a space-bar) isn't possible due to 'blah blah...' (Apologies for 'blah blah...' That's just the level of my current understanding of all the above.)
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is it just me...
...or have these different results and so-called preferred axis been the result of using different observatories to look at different parts of the sky rather than different observatories to look at th same parts of the sky?
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. That's stunning.
nt
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hell, most of the universe is not fine-tuned for life.
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