Why are violent protests at abortion clinics allowed????

[backtoblue]

I spoke with the only clinic in my state today and they've had to step up their security and everyone is on edge after the assassination of Dr. Tiller. I know from personal experience what it is like to walk through a line of "terrorists" throwing baby dolls, cussing, and calling women murderers without even knowing them or why they were going into the clinic.

Abortion clinics are not just used to perform abortions, they serve to aid in women's health and that includes ALOT of other reasons a woman could walk into a clinic. I'm afraid that women's reproductive rights are at stake and I've tried to reach my state reps, but no one has returned my call or email :(

How do we stop this hate?

[Captain Hilts]

1. For some reason, they're rarely located in medical buildings, but rather, in shopping centers...

or strip malls. So, they're vulnerable.

In a medical building, no one would know. And there would be better security.

[backtoblue]

2. You're right, the clinics are "hidden" away from the medical areas and are more vulnerable.

I just keep wondering if these "protesters" have a day job or if someone actually pays them to harrass women? I've been thinking about that alot because the people that I encountered did not look or act very educated or informed.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. They're not educated nor informed. They're the 'true believers' of a religious doctrine formulated

by old, white men that seek to control women.

[backtoblue]

38. Today, they won

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090609/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_shooting

Tiller's clinic is permanently closed. Terrorism worked. I've lost words...

[47of74]

3. Do they have cameras to record the protestors?

Do they have video cameras - with audio - there to record the "protesters" and those who step over the line and harass people going in or out of the clinic? This way they can document the people who are there to harass others and document it. If the city, county, and state authorities aren't going to do anything the complaints should go to the Feds who would probably do more now then they did when that stuffed flightsuit was in the White House.

[SacredCow]

7. Off topic...

but your sigline intrigues and scares me at the same time.

[SacredCow]

5. I volunteered to be a "human shield" back in the early 90's....

At a local clinic. Unfortunately, this clinic had no parking of its own and the patients had to park across the street, thus giving the shitheads plenty of opportunity to harass them. Our job was to escort them into the building. It got extremely heated on a daily basis.

And their tactics were just unbelievable. I made the mistake of wearing sandals one day, and in the middle of a fracas when a patient was going into the building, all of a sudden I felt a stabbing pain in my foot. One of the children of the protesters had crawled through the legs of the people to get to me and stabbed me in the foot with a car key! Later, I found out that was SOP for them- they instructed their kids to do shit like that (figuring that we wouldn't punch a kid)! Some fucking parent, huh? A kid could have been easily injured or killed like that (and later that summer, in fact- one WAS hurt). The doc at the clinic cleaned up my wound and dressed it and said I should go home that day and get a tetanus shot... "Fuck that," was my response. "I'll get the tetanus shot ASAP, but I'm NOT leaving this place short one escort, knowing their MO."

[47of74]

8. Nice.....

Probably some Republican shithead who thinks kids are all spoiled but thinks their own children are above the law.

[SacredCow]

12. Well, that summer- this particular group lost ALL of its credibility....

First, the kid that was injured... The general public was (rightfully) horrified that kids were being used in such a way. They began to send officers out to arrest people who knowingly put kids in harm's way.

Second, the head honcho of the group (who was as big of an asshat as they come) had some skeletons in his closet. Though he was against abortion, he was not against spreading his seed around. He had something like 3 ex-wives and a gaggle of kids, AND... he was something like 50 thousand-ish of dollars behind in his child support! Nice, huh? Use a deadbeat dad to promote anti abortion....

[47of74]

19. Unfortunately it seems to be a favorite tactic of the reich wing

To use their children in this way. The Terri Schiavo case just came to mind here how the reich wing turds were sending their kids through in an attempt to "feed" Terri only for the kids to get arrested. Meanwhile mom and dad are standing off to the side, proud as can be that their kids will now have juvie records.

[backtoblue]

9. thank you for standing up for us women !!!

That was very brave. I had to walk across a street, too where the protesters were eagerly awaiting ANYONE who was approaching the clinic. nt

[SacredCow]

13. It was my pleasure....

A close friend of mine got me involved. She was doing the same thing (one of the only female escorts, but she could take me down in a fight!), and after hearing some of her stories I just couldn't NOT be involved with that.

The clinic that they were targeting was a full-on women's clinic. They did gynecology, obstetrics- the whole enchilada. Many of the pregnant women going in were just getting pre-natal care, yet they were being screamed at and called murderers. It was just INSANE!

[raccoon]

35. Kudos to you for doing that, and you sound like a dude after my own heart,

"thus giving the shitheads plenty of opportunity to harass them."

I couldn't have said it better myself. :pals:

[SacredCow]

37. Thank you....

It was an interesting experience for me. Until I got there, I really had no idea how repugnant those people could be in such a situation. The women I escorted ranged from scared to death of the protesters to angry as hell (a couple of times, I had to keep the patient from assaulting the protesters).

Some days, to fill in the hours, I would play head games with the protesters... I spent 3 years at a fundamentalist Christian school, so when they'd start screaming bible verses, I'd finish them and/or quote other passages against them. NOTHING freaks out a fundie protester as much as having bible verses lobbed back at them!

One day (and I can't decide if I'm proud of this, or not- it was funny at the time), one of the most obnoxious protesters followed me to my car screaming at me (I was SO hoping he'd touch me so I would have been justified to lay him out, but he didn't). When we got to my car, he was on a tirade of "What do you do with all of the dead children that they abort?" (which is a REALLY weird and creepy thing to ask, no?). I had been to the grocery store before my shift at the clinic, so I reached in the bag and tossed him a can and said, "They go in here. Enjoy." (It was a can of Spam) And it was the first time I'd ever seen that particular dude speechless. In hindsight, it was an awful and disgusting thing to say- and probably added fuel to their rage. But hearing their shit day after day after day- I guess I just needed to get in my own dig.

For the record, I don't eat Spam- My vet had suggested I try to feed it to a cat I had at the time that needed to be fattened up!

[TheWraith]

6. Technically they're not.

What you're describing would probably rise to the level of disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, and possibly assault depending on whether they're throwing things at people. The question is whether the local LEOs are willing to enforce that, and eat the negative PR from the right that would come with it.

[havocmom]

10. And during the bush/cheney/GOP in control years, laws were not enforced

FEDERAL laws re clinics

[47of74]

14. That's why I've said now maybe the Feds will listen

Because Holder is in charge of the DOJ and Obama is President rather than that stuffed flight suit that used to be in the White House and his minions.

[havocmom]

17. We The People need to let them know we expect the law to be enforced

Put pressure on so the policy wonks know we expect enforcement. Let the wonks put the squeeze on foot dragging agencies.

Hold them to it. We cannot let mobs of radicals take vigilante action and violently attack people simply because they don't agree with the law of the land.

[backtoblue]

11. law enforcement was no where near.

There had to have been at least 40 or so protesters (which would normally get the cops attention right away), but the only law enforcement was at the front door to the clinic.

[get the red out]

15. Because the terrorists in this case are Christian

Plain and simple. We are supposed to see all Christians as "good". Put a turban on the protesters and they will be sporting an orange jump suit in short order.

Can't arrest thsoe "GAWD fearing folks". But Newt can decry the existence of "Pagans" in the US. It is absolutely ok to call for outright opression of people practicing other belief systems and absence of belief. But you can't step on Christian toes, especially the militant, terrorist Christians. The Bush years gave the media the impression that the nastier a Christian is, the more holy and devout.

(Methodists with pot lucks etc, I'm not talking about you. Actual good Christians, you know who you are and you don't get a lot of publicity, sadly).

[backtoblue]

16. Sad but true

I live in a "christian" region where all people seem to care about are their gun rights and taking away women's rights to choose. Not all christian people are bad, but the ones I encounter seem to be so extreme in conversations concerning women's rights. My ex-husband's preacher actually called me a Jezebel because I didn't succumb to my husband's wishes. :puke:

[get the red out]

20. I understand that!

As someone who was born in, grew up in, and lives in Kentucky.

Right-wing religion is driving people insane these days. I think they have replaced Christ with Reagan in a lot of these Churches that belong to the Republican Party. They are about nothing but politics.

[kestrel91316]

18. I'm afraid it's going to take a mass killing at one of these facilities before

anything is done.

[get the red out]

21. It will just be a lone nut when it happens

The media would probably then say it was just a lone nut-case. What a pity his mental illness wasn't treated sooner. Operation Rescue would deny all connections and Freeperville would delete posts as fast as they could. Fox News would probably come up with a story about how "Guvment" health care was bad for people with mental illness too.

[paulsby]

22. they aren't

peaceful protest is allowed (with certain distance limitations) just like anywhere else.

[backtoblue]

23. The protest I encountered was not peaceful, they threw dolls, accused women of being murderers.

That is definetely not within their rights.

[paulsby]

24. anecdotes are great and all

but i've seen no evidence or personal experience (in 20 yrs of law enforcement) that protestors of abortion are allowed to break the law.

[backtoblue]

25. Anecdote??? I WALKED through that protest line myself

I KNOW first hand what those people were doing to me and every other person walking up that sidewalk. Would you have stopped them, you being a cop and all???

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/backtoblue/20

[paulsby]

26. first of all, by definition

it is an ANECDOTE. if you doubt that, i suggest you look up what the word 'anecdote' means. it is in fact an almost perfect example of anecdote. surprising you don't realize this. doesn't make it true (or false) or meaninful or meaningless, but it IS an anecdote

2nd of all, you mentioned two specific acts

1) calling the women murderers. that is clearly politically motivated free speech. just like much of the politically motivated free speech i witnessed at N30, WTO, etc. i saw a guy call my partner a f*cking n**ger asshole. that is also free speech.

2) assuming they threw the dolls AT somebody, that would be (in WA state) attempted assault IV, and would be arrested if it occurred in my presence. if not witnessed, a criminal cite could be written

free speech includes the right to call people entering the clinic a "murderer" just like it protects the right of anti-war protestors to refer to military recruiters as murderers, etc.

the primary issues of legality at protests in fixed locations are whether the protesters block ingress/egress (and there are specific laws that deal with exactly how to determine if a violation has occurred).

[backtoblue]

27. You don't get it

I had dolls thrown at me. You are an asshole who doesn't get the significance of what a peaceful and not hateful protest is. No matter if it is legal or not, hate should not be tolerated.

I bet you'd arrest me for calling you a "f*cking asshole" if you were to pull me over though.

[paulsby]

28. wow. what a cogent argument

first of all, you don't have the stones to admit that it IS an anecdote.

second of all, you don't understand that the first amendment protects HATEFUL speech.

that includes calling military members and war supporters "murderers". it also includes calling people entering a clinic "murderers"

that is the type of speech the first amendment protects. if you don't like it, push to amend the constitution and dilute our civil rights. is that what you want?

it's also disturbing that you are now devolving to personal attacks. how "hateful". i didn't. i merely discussed the law and corrected you on your erroneous understanding of what "anecdote means"

generally speaking , people rarely call me an asshole. in 20+ yrs of law enforcement i have never even had an internal affairs complaint, let alone a sustained one.

but yes, people have called me an asshole. in cases like that, i usually tell them "have a nice day"

i respect free speech. you don't. that much is clear

[backtoblue]

29. Walk through something like that and maybe you would understand

There's no point to this argument. I hope you never have to be harrassed in such a shameful way.

[paulsby]

30. you assume

i haven't walked through such a protest.

in fact, i have.

is it pleasant? no

the constitution doesn't require people to be pleasant to each other. in fact, it protects their right to be unpleasant in regards to their speech.

i have been a victim of hate speech, for example. so don't make assumptions about me. you know nothing about me.

this is the USA. hate speech is LEGAL.

[shimmergal]

31. Regrettably, I do have to admit

that Paulsby is right, and people have the right to free speech, even if it's yelling "murderer" at someone else.

But surely patients have the right to NOT have to listen to it, too? Have any of those clinics experimented with broadcasting LOUD music outside, loud enough to drown out the shouts? Or would they get in trouble because of some anti-noise ordinance if they did?

[Control-Z]

33. Clearly, some posters

have a not so hidden agenda that is contrary to supporting women. They show up on these threads with their taunts and bluster, rather than engaging in problem solving. While something may be legal, there is always a way to corrupt its intention, which is exactly the case here.

If he were a true liberal, with intelligence and compassion, he would be outraged by the havoc being wrecked on women's rights in the name of free speech. Instead he jumps into women's discussion threads solely to pontificate about the right to spew hate, no matter how intentionally it incites violence.

[JonQ]

45. I trust then they you despise the ACLU?

They routinely protect the rights of people to spew hate, even riddled with violent imagery, merely based on the 1st amendment.

[iverglas]

48. oh, heck, Jonny

I'll bet C-Z would even defend your right to misrepresent everything she said.

And decent people everywhere will still call you and your speech what they are.

[backtoblue]

34. Yep, I agree with him about free speech

but, when the "protesters" are throwing things it becomes harrassment and thus, violent. I used my ignore feature for the first time yesterday... My freedom to not hear hate... nt

[JonQ]

44. You don't have a right to not be offended

that includes having things yelled at you that you don't like.

That doesn't make it right, but it is a protected right (no pun intended of course).

If they were throwing things then of course that crossed the line from peaceful protest to violent protest and it was no longer legally protected speech. Then you should call the cops and press charges.

[iverglas]

49. but you do have the right to misrepresent anything anybody else says

And you exercise it on a regular basis!

It must have some fine muscles by now.

[noamnety]

32. The main reason it's allowed:

because most people making the laws and enforcing them are men, and they don't have to deal with fear that they'll be assaulted when they go for medical care.

You can get a personal protection order against an individual - because men can see themselves possibly needing one against an individual at some point. The laws don't allow for protection orders against groups systemically stalking entire groups of minorities and oppressed people because the people who have historically made our laws never had to experience that.

It's an institutional power thing.

[raccoon]

36. Ding, ding! We have a winner. nt

[summerfeminista]

39. Government has to change.

Despite what people may say I think with more women in government ( I mean smart and intelligent ones) they will have a soft spot for issues like this.

[Glory89fan]

40. I don't know

Those idiot protesters should be kept far away, though.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musette_sf]

42. actually, we're making popcorn

:popcorn:

enjoy your stay...

[musette_sf]

43. popcorn

what a great appetizer before pizza.

i think he lasted for 2 posts.

[libguy9560]

46. For the same reason we allow war protests

Freedom of speech?

[musette_sf]

47. which part of "violent"

did you miss?