so no one can see us

[tkauf0310]

I will admit I am a little behind on my reading. Lately, I can only bear so much meanness and lunacy before I have to watch hours of HGTV and NCIS. But I was reading an article by Katha Pollitt in "The Nation" about the history of birth control. She wrote about a problem I have been seeing for several years. Many of the people who are "pro life" are not just against abortion,they are also against birth control. Now, I'm drawing my own line here, and I can't back it up with facts; but that line goes from abortion, birth control,prayer and Biblical teaching in the schools, to having American women in some sort of shrouded clothing, so one one sees us...so no one can see us. A lot of those people spout a bunch of malevolent nonsense about Islam. But the one thing they share with their Islamic foes is their views on women

[rurallib]

1. you got it!

doesn't logic tell you that if you don't want abortions, that the best way to avoid unwanted children is birth control?
My feeling has been from the time I was @ 18 was that taking away a woman's choice on birth control was one of the best ways to control her life.

[Feldspar]

6. Actually the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies

is to refuse to have sex with men.

Not as many synthetic hormone (big pharm profit machine there) side effects, *negotiations* with male partners about using condoms, searching for emergency "morning-after" pills in a panicked (red?) state following b.c. failures, etc.

[musette_sf]

7. Well. Um.

So you're advocating the choice of being abstinent or becoming a lesbian?

That's a real practical solution. :eyes:

So, for the rest of us who aren't asexual, fundamentalists and/or gay, just how would this "best way" play out?

[Feldspar]

8. You can't imagine another way of having "sex"

heterosexually without it requiring at some point "his" penis in "her" vagina?

Personally I've never known of a man (who isn't gay) who would not ever want to put "his" penis in "her" vagina if he had the chance.

[laconicsax]

9. Are you about to tell us how giving blowjobs is "empowering?"

:eyes:

[Feldspar]

10. Blowjobs "empowering"?! No.

No way. Neither is anal. Not one thing about penis-centric "sex" is empowering for women, IMO.

What I said to begin with was that the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies was to stay away from men. Simple.

But almost everyone seems to think that hetero *sex* requires a penis to be in a woman's body in some way, shape or form.

Really, the last I heard men/boys were more than capable of masturbating themselves. Even in the absence of a real live woman/girl.

(edit for typo!)

[iverglas]

12. actually, what you're saying isn't making a shred of sense

What I said to begin with was that the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies was to stay away from men. Simple.

Well, no, it wasn't. What you said to begin with was:

Actually the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is to refuse to have sex with men.

And nobody, me included, can figure out what it is you are saying.

Stay away from men? Okay, then no heterosexual sexual stuff at all.

But you say things about doing sex stuff that doesn't involve penis-vagina contact. Or, apparently, penis-anything contact, or at least penis-in-anything contact. Then you toss in men/boys masturbating. And what that line was about not having met a man who ... the multiple negatives lost me on that one.

Why not just say what you mean to say, instead of blurting out something that doesn't even seem to be intended to convey a particular meaning to a reader and then accusing the readers of not paying attention to what you said? Nobody knows what you are saying.

Not a great foot to get off on, really.

[Feldspar]

17. You know, you're right iverglas

I have no idea what I'm saying.

All the negatives without a single positive.

Which foot would you suggest I "get off on", then?

[iverglas]

18. "the multiple negatives lost me on that one"

was in reference to the grammatical structure of the sentence ... but now that you mention it ...

Which foot would I suggest you get off on?

I guess the one that involves speaking to the people reading in a way that indicates that you want to speak with them/us.

This involves things like making an effort to convey meaning, assuming goodwill ...

Granted, maybe the responses you received may have seemed a little flippant. But your initial post seemed kind of designed to invite strong reaction. Maybe if you had started out by giving a little more indication of a desire to converse rather than lecture? Perhaps the tone was not intentional. We could always start over.

[Feldspar]

19. "Designed to invite strong reaction" ????

Since you, Iverglas, have been so gracious as to offer a *do over*, I hereby produce the longer (clearer?) version:

In almost all cultures hetero “sex” is thought of as *penis-in-vagina*. When a known heterosexual woman says, "We had sex last night." does one automatically think that he brought her to orgasm while simultaneously masturbating himself then went to the kitchen to make the kids‘ lunch? Is this the default scenario for “sex“ in the mind‘s eye?

No, it’s not. The default of “sex” is the woman providing the male his orgasm by use of her body and most often it is assumed that the “sex“ culminated with his penis in her vagina. It’s true that this is not accurate 100% of the time, but it is the most widely accepted notion of “sex”, is it not? Bill Clinton sort of chiseled that one in stone, IIRC.

So when I said that best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is to refuse to have sex with males, I thought I was being crystal clear. It is basic biology after all. Also, I thought I might try to introduce the wacky idea that it just may be possible to have heterosexual sex without it being so exclusively male orgasm (penis) centric as, if nothing else, a semantic step forward in women’s real sexual liberation.

So, if my saying so “seemed kind of designed to invite strong reaction”, I’ll say it was not; it’s just that saying NO to “sex” with males is still and always met with derision ('flippancy' is entirely too mild) at best and violence at worst.

[Scout]

22. oh thank you! we silly women/feminists never have thought of that!

I might try to introduce the wacky idea that it just may be possible to have heterosexual sex without it being so exclusively male orgasm (penis) centric

i don't think we need the help you think you are offering....

:eyes:

[Feldspar]

25. Seriously! Why does

everybody think I am a troll?

Scout, I remember both you and Iverglas from back 2007 or thereabouts. Weightlifting Lady.

Hell, I sent xmas presents to The Straight Story's KIDS and helped to raise his mortgage payment, FFS.

[musette_sf]

24. "The default of 'sex'??"

Mr/Ms DU Newbie, if you aren't just an out and out troll of women's boards/groups, then you should probably wise up and get it that this is not the Baptist Homemaker Chat Circle here. No one here is in need of your putatively noble intent in enlightening us as to the myriad of possibilities available within the act of sexual congress.

In fact, we're so COMPLETELY aware of those possibilities, that your initial statement of "refuse to have sex with males" seemed COMPLETELY ridiculous to many of us. You know, since we already KNEW about all those other ways besides PIV contact.

So, if it is your mission to educate the naive that PIV contact is not the be-all end-all, you're in the wrong place. And if it is your mission to trololo on women's boards/groups, you're also in the wrong place.

[Feldspar]

27. You think I'm a conservative religious fundie?

That is not the case at all. Really

Although it happens a lot that I am mistaken for that.

[musette_sf]

28. No, but now I'm sure

that you have serious problems with reading comprehension. You know, since I never even intimated that you were a "conservative religious fundie".

Au contraire.

You're either on an ill-advised and unneeded sex ed rant, or you're on a trololo rant.

So you're either an oblivious overzealous idealist, or a troll.

[Feldspar]

29. "oblivious overzealous idealist"

Bingo! Almost.

Can you name the *flavor* of my ideology?

[Feldspar]

30. The "Pretentious Nitwit" wonders why

this thread went silent?

Certainly I haven't managed to silence the two of you so easily. What gives?

[Scout]

32. Argue with a fool, he does the same.... n/t

[Feldspar]

33. Fool?

I come back here to DU after an absence of a few years and get my ass chewed for being incomprehensible, accused of not engaging in good faith and being a religious fundamentalist because I suggest that the best way to avoid pregnancy is to stay away from penises?

How terribly radical, revolutionary and confusing this long accepted biological FACT is!

Now I’m being called a fool. :)

So, this is what passes as debate or *discussion* here in the Women’s Rights forum: deriding sentence structure, belittling religious women and name calling. Also, avoiding the issue by employing all three diversionary tactics.

7th grade, sisters.

**shakes head**

[Feldspar]

31. Question:

...since we already KNEW about all those other ways besides PIV contact...

Respectfully and seriously, I'd appreciate it if you would ennumerate "all the other ways" because I know a number of heterosexual women who have no idea where to begin having a non-PIV-centric sexuality short of *becoming a lesbian*.

When I said elsewhere on this thread "you can't imagine", I meant it because I can't...

[musette_sf]

11. You said, quote:

"refuse to have sex with men". Period.

You DIDN'T say "refuse to have PIV sex with men".

Still waiting for those alternatives for those who do not want to be abstinent, celibate, asexual, or gay.

[Feldspar]

20. Just noticed this...

My apologies.

You’ll see that I have posted a *clarification*, at Iverglas’ invitation, above that may address your concerns but frankly your response tells me that you have trouble envisioning sexual contact with men that is not male orgasm/penis centric. By which I mean to say that I fully understand how difficult it is to imagine such a thing because it is rather like a Unicorn this “sex” with males that does not involve *you* making his penile orgasm possible.

And just for the record: “abstinent, celibate, asexual” in this context all mean the same thing and “gay” is not a blanket term for homosexual people, there is a reason for the L in the LGBTQWTFBBQ.

[musette_sf]

21. Frankly, your response tells me

that you are a pretentious nitwit who's here only to try to stir shit up.

You've back and side pedaled quite vigorously around your original comments here, progressing now to "I've already 'clarified' my original comments elsewhere on this thread, but because you raised questions that I didn't like about those comments, I'll condescendingly call you an unimaginative prude."

And just for the record:

Abstinent, celibate, and asexual do NOT all mean the same thing, in ANY context.

"Gay" IS a blanket term for persons of the homosexual persuasion.

[Feldspar]

23. Okay.

I'll just go away then.

Silenced by your insistence that I'm out to cause trouble. On the internet.

(edited to add: what I really meant to say is that "pretentious nitwit" is a new one on me. Really, I've been called alot of things but never that one before! Cheers!)

[musette_sf]

26. If you keep up with your shit-stirring mission,

you'll hear "pretentious nitwit" again, I promise you.

[Lars39]

2. And along those lines, the right to own property.

Or work for pay. I think those are the ultimate goals...women being unable to own any property at all. With no competition from women for jobs or property, everything will be all right in some eyes.

[undeterred]

3. There are also men in the "prolife" movement

who feel that anyone related to a pregnant woman- including a brother, sister, parent, grandparent, as well as the person who impregnated her- have rights over her body during pregnancy because they have a relationship to the unborn. Its like being pregant suddenly deprives a woman of all her rights over her own body.

[WhiteTara]

4. Profound. Welcome to DU!

I look forward to seeing more of your posts.
:hi:

[Kath1]

5. Very Well Said

There are those on the right who oppose abortion, birth
control and sex education. I consider it all part of the
ongoing "war on women." Who would have thought that,
in 2011, we would still have to demonstrate, march, organize,
write letters and make phone calls in order for women to
control their own bodies? I agree that the fundamentalist view
of women is very similar to that of the more radical factions
of Islam.

[PhoenixAbove]

13. Welcome to DU...

as you can plainly see Women's Issue don't get a lot of attention here. Sometimes I feel like we ride in the back of every bus.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. And I popped into this forum today

For just that reason.

Look - I get that Gay/Lesbian/Transgender folks feel like Obama has done NOTHING for them. I disagree. He could fight only so many fights. So straight AND lesbian women are getting the shaft. And now we hear there was a 'good old boys' club at the beginning of his Administration?

I just reviewed a list of Obama's accomplishments. Lilly Ledbetter is there - but the Paycheck Fairness Act is not.

I want fair and honest pay for all women. I want to be able to sue in a Class Action Law Suit if it is found a corporation has not treated us fair and square.

I want my body to be my own to do with as I wish.

I want to put into my body what I want. . . to include my fiance's penis.

I want to see what is on the Obama/Biden 2012 agenda for women.

[PhoenixAbove]

15. Oh I'm not blaming President Obama...

for the Christian right wing assault on women's rights. As you say, he can only fight so many fights. What gets me so angry is how successful the right is on assaulting so many things that our needs always seem to end up at the back of the democratic bus. You must admit, it gets infuriating after awhile.

If I had it my way, I'd blast those right wing wackos on a one way ticket to the Andromeda galaxy. Wouldn't ever have to worry about them again.

It'll be interesting to see what the Obama/Biden agenda for women will be for 2012, but I have a sneaking suspicion their true worries will be elsewhere. After all, one has to have a job before one can even worry about fair pay. Sad thoughts.

[Name removed]

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