What do Martha Stewart, Lyndie England, & Gen. Karpinsky have in common?

[Senior citizen]

Isn't it strange that no matter the scandal, and no matter how many males are involved, the people who seem to get the most publicity and the harshest punishments are female?

[NMDemDist2]

1. can't speak for the military gals, but Martha is a Dem n/t

[Senior citizen]

8. OMG! Female AND Democrat? A wonder she wasn't lynched! n/t

[MADem]

2. It ain't fair, I agree

It's the GOP way of keeping them wimmens in their place, you see. They're fine, so long as they don't get too uppity and start expecting to be treated like an EQUAL...!

These GOP guys are afraid of strong women. I think strong women are fabulous, even more so when you need someone on the other end of a sleeper sofa that needs moving!!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Don't forget Jane Fonda

Isn't it interesting that, given all the monstrous men who devised and executed the Vietnam War, the one person who still gets the knuckledragging professional Vietnam veterans (and pretenders) worked up to the point of rabid is the one woman who made herself - and her protest of America's actions - visible?

[BornaDem]

4. So far, England doesn't fit in here because...

she has gotten NO punishment to date. It will be weeks, maybe months, before we know if the military is even going to charge her again.

[blogbear]

5. Seems like somewhat of a come down for Martha and Col Karpinsky

but little England will probably see the hardist hit since she was closer to ground level than the other two all along..

[Senior citizen]

9. The lower on the totem pole,

the harder our just-us system stomps you. I've even seen studies showing that you can predict the outcome of a trial by the economic status of the defendant.

[blogbear]

12. I'm a senior anymore too and am old enough and have seen..

enough to believe that..

[FizzFuzz]

6. I have definitely noticed this too! And a good book about the

about the psychology of misogyny so richly demonstrated in christofascist traditional values Amerika, and conversely, testosterone worship, is called "The Wimp Factor" A really good read.

Anyway, to my shame, I haven't brought it up (this scapegoating of women) in GD because I do alot of feminist ranting and couldn't think of how to say this that wouldn't sound over the top. And sometimes I think maybe some people shun me here because I have stood up pretty strongly against sexism around here......I dunno maybe I'm just being paranoid :shrug:, not that what anyone thinks matters.


Anyway, I totally agree with you.


On edit:hey this is my first post in this forum. I don't often go to any of the forums, I kind of forget about all the other good stuff at DU.

Hi everyone! :hi:

[Senior citizen]

10. Hi FizzFuzz!

No you're not paranoid, there definitely is a lot of sexism on DU. And a lot of people more concerned about the rights of child molesters than about the welfare of their victims. Sometimes it takes me months to come back to DU after some particularly horrible posts. And I know a lot of good people who've never come back.

Keep up the good fight! As for being "over the top," that's the best that the folks defending rapists, batterers, pedophiles, bosses who demand sexual favors or pay females less for the same work, pimps, pornographers and their ilk, etc., can come up with. It's an ad hominem (ad feminem?) attack. There is no good defense for sleazebags, so they say you're "over the top" or "ranting" or "hate men," or "paranoid," or some other personal attack. When dealing with people who defend scum, consider the source--birds of a feather....

[SophieZ]

7. Right on target, senior citizen!

I was noticing that myself.

Another woman taking heat would be the wife of Andy Fastow, former CFO of Enron. She worked for Enron a few years ago, then stopped. But, she was given $50+,000 to run one of Andy's off-the-books partnerships. She has been serving time in jail. Admittedly, it was seen as a way for prosecutors to get at Andy, and thus, get at Skilling and perhaps Lay. But, still -- to have Lea Fastow in jail, while Skilling and Lay walk free with no restrictions -- well, it just ain't right.

[Senior citizen]

11. Wow. I didn't know that.

But that's how things are. Come to think of it, imagine if instead of Gannon/Guckert, it had been a FEMALE prostitute who had posed as a reporter and visited the White House a hundred times, even when there weren't any press conferences, and often forgot to sign in or sign out! That sex worker would be in prison right now, probably in Guantanamo as a threat to national security.

[SophieZ]

13. I should add, to make sure I've not misled....

Skilling and Lay WILL face trials, eventually (hey, it's only been 40 months, what's the rush).

But, as far as I know, they did not lose their passports while they wait, nor were their assets frozen. Ken Lay and his wife have basically stood before the public with their pockets turned inside out, as if they have no money, when just ONE of their assets (their $7 million condo) would be more than most Americans MAKE in their lifetimes. Lay brought home something like $300 million the last few years of Enron's existence, then claims he's broke.

Something IS broke, but it's not Ken Lay.

[highlonesome]

14. Depends on how you frame your perspective

If you limit your view to just three cases it may seem that women are receiving short shrift.

However, if you broaden your perspective, It's quite clear that generally speaking women don't serve anywhere near the jail time that men do for identical and similar offenses.

[chicaloca]

15. GAH!!!

Can we require posters to take a research skills class before posting on DU? Anyhow, here's what I found on this topic:



Despite Lesser Roles in Drug Crimes, Many Women Receive Longer Sentences Than Men, Children Victimized, Says Minneapolis Star Tribune Report PRISONS
January 1998

Many women who play minor roles in drug rings receive longer sentences than the men who organize, lead and supply the operations, according to a Minneapolis Star Tribune investigative series. For the report, the newspaper conducted computer analysis of 60,000 federal drug sentences from 1992 through 1995, examined 118 court cases in depth and interviewed 55 women prisoners across the country (Joe Rigert, "Drug sentences often stacked against women," Star Tribune (Minneapolis), December 14, 1997, p. A1; Joe Rigert, "Justice blind to children," Star Tribune, December 15, 1997, p. A1; Joe Rigert, "What about a second chance?" Star Tribune, December 16, 1997, p. A1).

More at: http://www.ndsn.org/jan98/prisons5.html (I can send the full Star Tribune story to anyone who's interested.)

___________________________________________________________________

March 23, 2005 -- A common refrain among inmates at Atlanta's Metro State Prison for Women is that they didn't do it — that they were taking the rap for someone else.

But among those who accept their sentence, there is another complaint — that the system is stacked against them.

One of the peculiarities of American justice is that for many violent crimes, women tend to serve longer sentences than men.

Men tend to kill strangers, but women kill family members. Almost half of America's female murderers killed their husband or boyfriend.

More at: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=607556&page=1

___________________________________________________________________
Studies comparing battered women who kill abusive partners to battered women who do not commit violence consistently find that the relationships of women who kill tend to be of longer duration and characterized by more frequent and recent abuse and higher rates of sexual assault; and the women tend to sustain more injuries and to experience more death threats from the offender. The very limited extant research suggests that courts may be more stringent in handling intimate partner homicides committed by women, and that women who kill intimates may receive longer sentences than men who have committed the same offense. A lack of sufficient data exists to compare the decisions of parole boards in cases of battered women who kill, although current trends reflect a reduction nationally in discretionary parole release across all types of cases.

More at: http://www.research.uky.edu/crvaw/currentCenterresearchprojectsincarcerated.htm

_________________________________________________________________

For comparable crimes, women receive longer sentences than men. Women who kill their intimate partner serve an average of 15 years while men for the same crime serve on average 2 - 6 years (Davis, 1999). In one Oklahoma case, a husband was found guilty of child abuse and the mother was also convicted of assessory for not reporting the crime. The man served less than 2 years while the woman remained in custody at EWCC for over 3 years.

From page 2 of this document: http://www.nwlincs.org/correctional_education/articles/educating-incar-female-davis.pdf

I have tons more sources for this, if anybody wants more (and if I have the time to come back here any time soon).

[FizzFuzz]

17. hi chicaloca; did you google this or is it research you had onhand?

I once googled for this type of info and didn't know how to word my request apparently. I didn't get any good hits.

Don't remember now what keywords I used; I know I thought they would give me what I needed, but .... you know.

Thank you for providing this important info.

[chicaloca]

18. It was "longer sentences than men"

I used Google, and also did a search for "longer sentences than women," but got a lot fewer hits and pretty much all were from those kooky men's rights sites, not any reputable sources like universities and newspapers. Oh, and make sure you use quotation marks.

Anyhow, it's great to see another awesome, fiery feminist on here. I seem to see more of us every time I come to this forum -- maybe there's a little bit of hope yet!

[FizzFuzz]

21. I try, anyway!

:)

Pleased to meet ya! And welcome to DU

[highlonesome]

22. Some more

I think part of the problem is that your search terms are somewhat slanted. Try "prison sentence by gender" and you're more likely to come up with fewer political interest websites. Here's some areticles and references:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_3_34/ai_87425686#continue

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4187/is_200308/ai_n9906050#continue

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=668544

"Studies of federal prison sentences consistently find unexplained racial and gender disparities in the length of sentence and in the probability of receiving jail time and departures from the Sentencing Guidelines. These disparities disfavor blacks, Hispanics, and men. "

[FizzFuzz]

16. chicaloca's post confirms what I have heard from a distinguished professor

of Criminal Justice.

Women tend to be overprosecuted, and given longer sentences for lesser crimes compared to men.

They are routinely punished for defending themselves against violent partners. (especially distressing when we remember that 1 in 3 women are raped or attacked at least once in her lifetime; and that 1/3 of ALL emergency room admittances of women are for injury inflicted by a male intimate partner)

[chicaloca]

19. not to mention...

the fact that murder by an intimate partner is the leading cause of death for pregnant women.

And murder is also the leading cause of workplace death for women in the United States, usually committed by someone the woman knows.

Yet it's a bigger crime for us to defend ourselves than for our boyfriends and husbands to kill us because they're jealous of a fetus in our womb.

[FizzFuzz]

20. thanks alot---I'm trying to manage my anger issues

and this didn't help!!!

It's a hard line to walk, between being paralyzed by overwhelming anger and doing what you can to move forward and make the most of your personal strengths in spite of repression that would like to kill you or just imprison you in a house full of screaming children.

Sometimes seems hard for me especially not being "in the field", making direct changes; even though the small daily advances in other arenas are equally important. We can't all be lawmakers.

[highlonesome]

24. propaganda and mumbo jumbo

"the fact that murder by an intimate partner is the leading cause of death for pregnant women."

That's because they're by and large much safer than the rest of society. Deaths by lightning outnumber deaths of pregnant women by murder each year.

"And murder is also the leading cause of workplace death for women in the United States, usually committed by someone the woman knows."

That's because 95% of workplace deaths are men. That stat only rings true when one considers how much generally safer women are in the workplace than men.

"Yet it's a bigger crime for us to defend ourselves than for our boyfriends and husbands to kill us because they're jealous of a fetus in our womb."

Actually, if one can evidentially support battered wife syndrome, it's not a crime at all. Battered husband and battered child syndromes do not yet exist.

[highlonesome]

23. Tragic numbers

Thank God they're not true!