Demoralized feminist here.

[Darth_Kitten]

:)

or should I say :( What is it about women that they STILL are so terrible to their own gender yet let men off the hook for practically everything?

I have been thinking about things... (oh, no!!! that's enough to get anyone down!! heh heh!! :) ) I'm a feminist, but I don't know if I really care anymore about what a lot of women go through. They don't need or ask for my help, and they probably wouldn't stick up for another women who needs help or support. They seem selfish, shallow, and self-centred. :(

It's not my intention to sound very negative, but I am indeed frustrated about how women treat other women. It's like a man can insult them, put them down, disrespect them, treat them and their loved ones with contempt or meanness, and they keep making excuses for them, but if another woman so much as looks at them the wrong way, then there is hell to pay. How annoying!!! :mad:

Maybe it's time for feminists to stop being so accomodating? :shrug: If some women want to hate themselves and their gender, then let them, let's focuse our energies on other things? :shrug: Or should we continue to "call them" on their disrespectful treatment of other women? :shrug:
I don't know, I just get so frustrated with people sometimes. :) :shrug:

Well that's my saturday morning rant. ;) :evilgrin: Any thoughts? :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Women I know are supportive of one another

but then I have a sort of unique circle of women-they know who they are, they are their own people, and know themselves. I think women who lash out at other women are really lashing out at themselves and their own shortcomings. They have been taught that women are second class citizens and that men are always right, and even though some may play lip service to the feminine agenda, this primary training breaks through the facade in times of stress. The thing to do, I believe, is to work at building up self esteem. But that doesn't mean taking any garbage from someone who tries to dump on you! But I don't see arguing back or retaliating as being helpful either-this is why Jesus recommended the practice 'resist not evil'. It is hard to meet negativity with loving indifference or a quiet meaningful word, but sometimes that can be most helpful.

[Cerridwen]

2. Whew! Where to begin. Oh I know.

Good morning! :hi:

Sorry you're feeling this way; though I understand all too well, the reasons why. For the record, my degree is in Women's Studies and I've worked with organizations peopled by 95% women for about 7 years total; maybe longer.

I had problems working with and for women for many years. We don't appear to be educated in healthy ways to deal with conflict and competition and so we frequently resort to less healthy, somewhat passive-aggressive behaviors.

There are a lot of good books and articles about how women (and other suppressed/minority/powerless) groups participate in their own exploitation/suppression/etc. I'd list some here if the caffeine had kicked in yet :) I do remember off the top of my head that bell hooks wrote some very insightful articles on this particular subject.

The best experience I had with women was during the time I was pursuing my degree. We were a small group and we worked very hard together to empower (too bad that word has become such a cliche) each other and support each other.

The worst experiences I've had have been in the work place. Our upbringing doesn't prepare us to work with others within the current framework of competitive, capitalistic, hierarchical organizations, corporations, and businesses. Those of us who learn it along the way can tend to over-compensate for our inexperience. It also doesn't help that men who have been taught and prepared for the workplace designed by men, for men, about men, know how to exploit our inexperience.

In my private life, I do my best to surround myself with like-minded souls who are comfortable in their skin and with their personal power; with varying degrees of success. Women who have bought into the Hollywood/societal version of who and what women are can be difficult to relate to. The idea that women's lot in life is to compete for men and that all women are the enemy makes my blood boil.

Okay, so I've added some disjointed ranting to your thread. It would have made more sense if my brain were more awake. :)

[Darth_Kitten]

3. No, I appreciate all the feedback....

Thanks everyone!!

I just get frustrated over all the backbiting and backstabbing that is around. *Some* women can't seem to understand that hurting other women isn't going to make their lives better! It just seems that sometimes I find more negative women in my life than strong, positive ones. (outside of my family and close friends)

I, for one, will not take being put down or demeaned by anyone, male or female. But it's ironic that I'm a feminist who has been "attacked" more by other women in the working world than by men. Why can't *some* women understand that snubbing your nose at potential allies and friends isn't going to make your life happier? More secure?
Hell, we are all insecure yet we don't all strike out at others.

:evilgrin: I hope I'm making some sense, haven't had my coffee yet. ;) :hi: :D

[highlonesome]

4. is this similar to a "women's vote?"

Is it possible that this is just a philosophical fallacy? Now for example, leading up to this last election -- and most others actually -- there's a lot of rhetoric about a women's vote, ie that woman either do or should vote a certain way on certain issues. In the end, it pretty much always turns out that women vote in ways that are as diverse as the way men vote -- that there is no such thing as a "women's vote."

You say that "some women can't seem to understand that hurting other women isn't going to make their lives better." well of course it's not. One thing I notice is that these women are usually just "people." It's not like they're just walking around hurting other women, they're usually hurting everybody.

I often wonder if anyone could possible be clearly objective that they might find that either behaviors of support or undermining by either gender could be about the same. You may just be reading into these other women that they should have the same ultimate goal as you: supporting women BECAUSE they're women based in the idea that you consider yourself a feminist. Maybe they just don't care if you're a feminist or not. Maybe to them work is just work and you're aother person at work.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Well, I'm not sure that's...

entirely a feminist problem. It seems to be a human problem seen from the feminist perspective.

Men are every bit as capable of treatng other men as badly, and often do, just in different ways. Men are also equally capable of acting not in their own best interests, and taking others down while doing it.

We are in an interesting transition where women are gaining economic and political power that they have never had before in Western society, and neither men nor women are fully able to grasp it's significance or deal with it yet.

[Darth_Kitten]

6. So true.

Interesting take on things. :)

[haele]

8. Women who take advantage of their womanhood...

And don't respect the person within themselves. I hate to put it this way, but you wonder what their mothers, aunties, and grandmothers taught them growing up.

That's what I have seen all the time at work. I've seen it in men, too - those jerks who just have to be the ultimate warrior type, dysfunctional, black and white thinking, power trippers - you know - Neo-Cons?

These are the women who talk the "earth-mother" or "girlfriend" talk in their circles so long as everyone worships them as the queen-bee - or at least the princess. Woe to she who makes a comment or considers an action that doesn't fit in the queen bee's world-view - or even worse, ignores or out-performs her.

These are the "women" use their sexuality/femininity with the guys as a strength but perceive it in their female co-workers as a weakness to be despised. These are the "women" who even when claiming they're feminists and talk loudly about being team players and equal to men, can't seem to accept responsibility for their actions, the first to cry "sexual harassment" or claim to be the victim at normal work situations that go against their agenda.
Spirits help the real man who tries to get these "women" to really act like a team member or take responsibility for her production - he'll be tarred a sexist jerk the first time he crosses her no matter how right he is. The real woman that tries the same fairs no better; she will be back-stabbed and sabotaged at the first opportunity. (I've lived this scenario over time and time again...at least with an irresponsible or sexist man, you have time to prepare; you know when it's going to happen and can see the knife coming. Fellow "women" hide the knives as they rip at your position at that site.)

These are "women" who make it harder for women who really want to work, who really do produce. They can act like they are compassionate, maternal, supportive - but are just as dysfunctional as any abusive spouse. Think "Dr. Laura", think "Phyllis Schaefly". They're happy so long as they get what they consider their due and everyone else should be happy with the left-overs these creatures leave for them. What did their Mothers teach them? Sheesh.

If you've been exposed to, hurt by, enough women like that, it becomes difficult to automatically accept the appearance of needing help in other women. Those creatures are so-o-o good at talking the talk and playing the game, they hurt the rest of us that have to live in reality.
It's like a false reporting of a crime; even one exposure to a false report makes it more difficult for subsequent real victims to get the proper help.
It's totally unfair - both to the person who really is a feminist and really wants to help society overcome false boundaries in life for both women and men and to the real victims of gender politics.

Bottom line in these situations - the feminist who wants to help but has been bitten repeatedly has become afraid of getting hurt again by the sexual scam artists. So more of us suffer from gender politics - just because of these selfish creatures who call themselves women.

End of my Saturday Rant.

Haele

[Darth_Kitten]

9. Thanks

:)

[Scout]

15. Those are the women who deserve the epithet

"pussy" ... they aren't real women, real people, they are pussies.

I can't stand women who are pussies.

[Nikia]

10. I have noticed this lately in my personal life

This wasn't much of an issue in college. I went to a college with competitive admissions so we were all intelligent, accomplished for our age, ambitious, around the same age and were generally treated with respect by our fellow students and professors.
In the "real world" women being cruel to other women but not to men seems to be a problem. I think that there might be a couple different issues going on.
There are women like my mother-in-law and some of my female co workers who have come to accept the patriarchal ways of the world. They stayed at home, put their men first, took "female jobs" if they took one and didn't try to advance, and fullfilled all their household, family, and perhaps church or other social organization female responsibilities. They didn't do this by choice. They did it because they thought that it was their obligation, something that they had to do. I think that they tend to be mean towards women who are choosing not to fullfill these obligations. They feel jealous and if somehow these successful or non traditional women are cheating.
There are successful women who did fight hard to accomplish something. Perhaps they suspect or were even told that they were the token female in a high level position. They may have had a lot of problems with women in the above category over the years. Upcoming younger, successful women become a threat even if there is now room for more women at the top.
Then there are women, who even if they are married, want to make everything into a competition for the best man/men sort of thing. These women focus more on their physical feautures and ability to seduce or at least attract attention from men. They may be mean to women who they perceive to be not as good as them from this perspective or be even meaner to women who they feel are.
I agree that this is a problem, but I think that at the heart of all these cases is a sense of insecurity.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

11. "Searching for Debra Winger", a documentary that addresses the issues

of women's appearances vs. their talents or accomplishments. Many of the actresses who spoke in the movie talked about the films they auditioned for. And, even if they aced the acting portion, they were ultimately judged on their "f**kability".

We as a society are immersed in this cultural morass. The tag line of "yeah, but would you want to f**k her?" seems to accompany all MSM entertainment and so called news shows, with a few notable exceptions. Madelyn Allbright and Kathy Bates, for example.

Until we, as a collective female voice, say Bullshit to societal judging us by some porno queen standard, we will continue to fight among ourselves, and consider each other competition rather that comrades in arms. MKJ

edited for grammer

[Chovexani]

12. Wow I was just watching that the other day!

That was a great documentary.

The "fuckability" thing made me cringe, because I'm no actor but I could definitely relate to what the women in the film were saying. Even among people who ought to know better, the "fuckability" factor looms large.

I find Ann Coulter to be a completely vile human being, but a little part of me screams in rage every time there's a thread on DU about her because inevitably we get the oh-so-clever "Mann Coulter" crap and totally irrelevant stuff about the size of her Adam's apple. Is it possible to just trash her for her whacked-out Nazi ideas? Why is her appearance even an issue? The fact that it seems to be for so many otherwise enlightened people speaks volumes to me. Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to point out that Robert Novak looks like a poor man's Bela Lugosi in his declining years, but somehow Novak threads don't turn into 30 post diatribes about his sallow, sunken-in face. Coulter threads inevitably degenerate into pissing contests between who can make the most off-color trannie jokes, and that bugs me. Not because I like Ann Coulter (I think she's capital-E Evil, and just plain nucking futs), but she does not make her living as a supermodel. Her looks are utterly irrelevant to the discussion, and the pile-ons that go on in those threads completely drown out the few posts that actually call her on her horseshit. It's totally out of proportion, is what I'm saying. And if you have the gumption to point it out...you get accused of being a freeper/Coulter apologist, or PC feminazi blah blah blah backinthekitchenyouuppitybitchcakes. It's troubling, to say the least.

On Edit: I have a dark sense of humor and don't mind off-color jokes when they're funny, but the whole trannie thing is probably what bugs me the most about the Coulter threads, because it opens a window into the twisted world of societal expectations as to what proper gender boundaries are. I'm not T myself but I have friends who are (funny enough, the gorgeous Goth "girl" that is my avatar is actually a Japanese transvestite who's one of my favorite musicians) and, well, demonization is alive and well and it's a bitch.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Just out of curiosity, which Japanese musician?

:-)

[Chovexani]

17. Mana, formerly of Malice Mizer

Currently of Moi dix Mois. Mana actually singlehandedly started the Elegant Gothic Lolita fashion trend in Japan. He even has his own label and boutique, and is considered the pinnacle of EGL fashion. I've read a lot of translated interviews, and apparently he just always loved offbeat fashion choices (he used to have a mohawk way back when), and loves women's fashion because it is just more interesting than men's fashion.

Well, my mom always did tell me I dressed like a drag queen. Who knew I'd prove her right one day? :crazy:

[liontamer]

18. I'm with you on ann coulter posts

and threads on the bush twins clothing choices. Of all the things Bush has done people feel the need to post because some 22 year old is showing some cleavage. wtf?

[seventythree]

24. My take

is -- what kind of a parent let's his/her kid dress inappropriately when she is standing next to the President? -- let alone being the President's kid! I have said to hubby -- where the heck is Laura when this kid goes out of the house? If you are concerned about propriety in movies, tv, rap songs, etc., take a look at the message you are sending when your kid is not in a party dress and her bosom is still hanging out. Abstinence education? A little tough to promote when the kid is dressed like she's ready for the back seat.
I have not seen Barbara inappropriately dressed, just Jenna, and she is the little pip, so maybe her parents can't tell her anything.

It's not that dubya (WIII) hasn't done plenty to talk about 00 it's that this is a display of more hypocrisy.

[seventythree]

23. just a thought

-- I think Coulter posts degenerate into appearance issues because she DOES put herself out as a "babe." I'm probably too much of an old fuddy duddy, but I saw her on a show and her skirt was up to her crotch. She looks a little better lately, but at that time, she was looking pretty hookerish. I think she saw herself as looking, "hot," however. If you want to be taken seriously, you dress like a professional -- in your personal life, dress any way which makes you feel good.

[tigereye]

31. nicely said

I get really tired of the obsession with appearance. It should be irrelevant.

[jcappy]

14. Siding with patriarchy...

makes sense to many women, i think, because they see feminism as a lost cause. this was very true even when the feminist movement was riding a wave in the 1970s and my bet is that it's more true today--at a time when there is very little public outcry or public demands as there was then. i am not saying this "siding with the man" is a conscious thing at all, but that there is not enuf out there to interfere with the "natural' internalization of patriarchal dictates and values. one thing is certain: men need women to be at each other because their own women-hating is then more hidden and more effective.

[catzies]

20. Welcome to DU, jcappy! Why do you think women view feminism as lost cause?

Just asking.

[jcappy]

26. patriarchal framework

i think it's the patriarchy can frame feminists---as manhaters, lesbians, too sensitive, bores, sexual prudes... etc. but the tools for seeing this way exist in patriarchal culture itself. these views are internalized, and it takes a large wave of change to overcome all of this.

[smirkymonkey]

32. The infighting of oppessed groups in society occurs because

they fear going up directly against their opprssors. It's easier to attack one another than to stand together and face the reality of the situation.

It happens with racial minorities and gays as well. A patriarchal, capitalistic society depends upon this phenomenon to survive. If we all stuck together and challenged the status quo, I have no doubt we would overpower them.

[spooky3]

16. Advice from a man in my male-dominated work environment

(the previous one, that is)...it went something like this.

When I voiced many of the same feelings you are describing, he said, "Why do we expect all women who work here to be supportive of, friends with, and like every other woman? I don't like all the men I work with, and no one expects me to. Some men are jerks, some are ok, but I just don't like them, and a few I like a lot. I think it's asking too much of women to expect them to be good to all women, but at the same time, I think women professionals are harder on other women professionals than they are on men."

[liontamer]

19. I think our society isn't set up very well for sisterhood

and it's pointless to expect that a sisterhood will spring up naturally amongst all women in a workspace.

the same things happen with men, it's just not as noticeable because men tend to be better off in the corporate world anyway.

In my workplace, most things get accomplished by small factions working together, but those factions are not always split along gender lines.

Just because women are oppressed, we can't expect that we will put aside all our differences and always work together as a smooth feminist block.

[legalcoffee]

21. Great Book To Read Re:

Women's Inhumanity to Women - Phylis Chelser

[Jackie97]

22. I try to raise hell when I can.

I raised some on another DU board about calling women the B word because I feel it's like calling a black person the N word. At the same time, I think it's also important for feminists to choose their battles.

[seventythree]

25. I hear ya --

I called someone out on another thread for using the term douchebag and had a self-proclaimed "feminist" say she didn't get it. I said, use "enema bag" -- it's gender neutral.

[lapopessa]

27. I guess I'd say it's human behavior at its best & worst

Some of what you say reminded me of language I hear in discussions of behavior within the African-American community. At which point discussions often lead to anthropological studies of slave culture and its effects in making generations after generations continue to harbor feelings of 2nd class status.

I think there's something there we can take for feminism and American women as well. We are not just women, we are how we were raised. We are how we watch and feed back culture to ourselves. I'm the oldest woman by 20 years in my office. And sometimes when I'll say something about women's rights, the kids (as I call these 20-somethings) look at me oddly, wondering where it comes from, why wouldn't they have equal rights as women? They've grown up in the 80s and don't feel the same sense of urgency as I do over threats to Roe v. Wade, or politics I see as "roll backs." It's not their reality.

I know I'm rolling on a couple of different tangents myself, but it's early Sunday morning, and this is my rant reply to rant :).

[2Design]

28. the type of women you describe are codependent - and that is

usually the behavior they will display toward useless men - this is the same behavior that rw promotes in women - the enabling, stepford wife type -

independent - true to themselves women are feminist and hated by male chauvinists and the republicans - they think for themselves and don't support a abusive agenda - look at * and the way some fawn over him - they have been trained to like abusive men -

His admin is abusive - all of them - including his lover ** - the witch
and those who are codependent and think these traitors will protect us are codependent and typical of the type of behavior you describe

[Tsiyu]

29. I can relate to your frustration

Lately, other women's jealousy has truly pissed me off. In the past, i internalized it, as in: "Oh, well, you should minimize your talents, don't tell people about your experiences, etc. It intimidates others when a five foot tall "girl' can do and has done all these things."

But fuck that. if another woman can't take it that I can get up and jam with her man ( and maybe play and sing better than he does) when she can't hold a note in a bucket FUCK HER. If another woman is jealous because I've led an awesome life, FUCK HER. I am just fed up with the backbiting babes out there whose only claim to fame is their ability to rip another woman to shreds. I call them 'filler people.' They're here to take up space and leave no positive impact. They are a waste of any self-respecting woman's time and energy. The nicer you are to them, the more you try to support them to "show em how it's done" the more they try to fuck you over.

I refuse to try to even figure that shit out. Those kinds have deep-seated problems and WAY too much time on their hands. The men and women I call friends can have a good time without having to demean somebody else. Don't waste any more time DK, letting fools bring you down.

[bloom]

30. There have been a couple of threads recently

that have me thinking about this.

One is the patriarchy thread and the other was one where a writer was disparaging a woman for her looks. A man objected and defended the concept of valuing women for things other than their looks - whereupon - as it turns out it was another woman who was doing the disparaging and she was also offended that a man would presume to defend anything about women over her - a woman.

So it made me think - that yeah - a man could be more of a feminist than a particular woman and it also occurred to me (this probably isn't a new idea) how some woman use looks in a competitive way in the same kind of way that men compete with violence or various power sorts of things. (Many of those things drive the consumer society).

Seems like women typically have their things that they compete with and men have theirs and some women choose to compete with the men on their terms and some people don't feel like competing at all. And some of those people just say the hell with it. And some of them manage to figure out a way to live that is more cooperative...