A question regarding gender stereotyping in infants and toddlers.

[HuckleB]

OK. So, yeah, we're having a baby. And we've been sent some rather incredible baby clothing through an interesting grapevine. It's clothing I wore as an infant, some 36 years ago. One of the items has a train on it. A rather cutesy train, and yet when we showed the clothing to two other supposedly enlightened mothers to be last night, they both noted that this item wouldn't work "if it's a girl." I was shocked, and I replied, "WTF!" Further, they tried to argue that we would accept pink clothes for a girl, when my partner and I made it clear that we're just not "pink people." Neither of us have a stitch of pink clothing, so we're not going to dress our kid that way unless the kid chooses it later. It's a matter of choice for us, but it brought home just how ingrained the gender stereotyping of infants is in our culture. These are accepting, liberal folk who acted this way.

Anyway, I am trying to find articles and research pieces available on the net regarding gender stereotypes and infants and toddlers. My own search has been only semi-successful, so any help that ya'll can pass my way is appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Salud.

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Here is an interesting link.

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~susan8/parinf.htm

And, to be honest, my boy wore blue...my girl wore pink. My girl is a tomboy. My son is my cuddly, happy to be home kid. I don't think it really matters so very much clothing wise. My kids are well adjusted whether or not I feel into the gender stereotyping of clothing. I just thought there was some cute stuff out there. :hi:

Best of luck HuckleB!!!! :bounce: :toast: You've got much tougher issues ahead of you. ;)

[HuckleB]

6. Yeah, that's good stuff. Gracias.

I'm well aware that we've got much bigger fish to fry. (Mmmmm. Did somebody say fish fry?) I was just astounded at the comments made by two devotedly feminist, professional women. They seemed confused and almost offended when we said our kid would have a variety of toys to choose from, not based in gender. I don't know. I thought this was basic in this day and age.

Salud!

[Warpy]

43. Well, good luck with that one

My friends and I were in that "raising free children" first wave of modern feminism in the late 60s who were shocked that little girls cuddled Tonka trucks in blankets while little boys grabbed Barbie by the feet, pointed her head at you and yelled "BANG!" Some preference and behavior does seem to be hard wired, as earth mother friends found out when their daughters horrified them by preferring ribbons and lace while their sons refused to wear anything but green or brown.

I guess the best you can do is raise them to know that all choices are valid and hope the girls don't choose to be Stepford type doormats and the boys don't choose to support war.

[Kaylee]

2. Does the kid even know she's wearing pink??

As a mother of both a son and a daughter, I can only offer anecdotal evidence to tell you it really doesn't matter. They are going to be who they are going to be.

I did dress my kids in gender appropriate clothing when they were infants only because you get tired of people asking me if they were girls or boys. I still got the odd genius that would see my daughter in all pink or my son in all blue covered in footballs and baseballs and ask me what gender they were! Duh!

As for your toddler question. I was a tomboy growing up,and I assumed my 4 year old daughter would be like me. Nope. She is the girliest, girly girl around. She doesn't like to get her hands dirty, won't do any activity that she perceives to be dangerous, and picked out a color for her room that looks straight out of princess land. We tried trucks and "boy toys", anything we thought was cool that may not have been in the all-pink section of the store. They are all sitting on the shelf collecting dust until my son gets old enough to play with them.

We'll see with my son. At 10 months he's already showing a lot of boy traits.....like destroying my house! They seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum with no help from us.

[HuckleB]

7. Well, there are studies showing that people react differently...

to infants depending on what the infant wears (boy vs. girl assumption) and the types of toys that infants and toddlers have at their disposal. Also, in day care settings such things seem to play a role in how children separate themselves. So in the population as a whole, there seems to be some effect in this regard.

[alphafemale]

3. Kids develop their own tastes and personalities amazingly fast.

So long as you allow the healthy natural development all will be fine.

A girl will develop into a tomboy or froo-froo lover all on her own. Trying to surpress either trait is just as wrong.

note-
Not allowing a young teen girl to dress like say... a prostitute (or pop star) should not in anyway be considered an unjust squelching of their personal expression.

[HuckleB]

8. I totally agree.

On all counts.

Salud.

[Iris]

13. Yes, but presenting her with only froo-froo options is wrong as well.

Socialization is real and can be difficult to overcome and some people never really get a chance to develp their real selves.

[bloom]

17. I think kids pick up on cultural trends amazingly fast.

I'll also never forget the 2 year old girl in the neighborhood - who wasn't allowed to play because her parents wanted to dress her in frilly dresses every day and then tell her not to get dirty.

[Iris]

30. That was a parental trend.

Her parents chose to put her in that dress.

[Katherine Brengle]

50. Agreed --

I think it is vital to present kids with a wide range of options when they are very young and then as they get older, they will choose what fits them and that's that.

:)

[atommom]

4. Good luck avoiding the pink. Little girls' clothes seem to be

predominantly pink and lavendar! I don't have girls myself, but I remember hating "girly" stuff as a kid. There's so much more girly-girly stuff for sale these days that it would drive my childhood self screaming out of the store! :)

[HuckleB]

9. Well, I can live with lavender, I guess.

I don't think we're going to worry about the "gender" of the clothes, in general, though.

[Captain Hilts]

38. Sports teams all now have pink versions of their logos and jersies...

It seems stupid to me to wear a pink Red Sox logo...or t-shirt...

[Warpy]

45. I vaguely remember going through a sparkle and ribbon stage

but I can remember disliking lace (too scratchy) and ruffles (listening to my mother bitch about ironing them ruined that one).

[Katherine Brengle]

51. One word: GREEN

It's the best, and it screams vitality, one thing little kids have in ridiculous abundance :).

[liontamer]

5. I can't find any online links

but if it makes you feel better(or worse) most gender stereotyping occurs in educated parents who are against gender stereotyping :)

If you pay more attention to your behaviour and to your attitudes (do you find yourself helping girls more, do you think your boys are "energetic") you'll make the most difference,

[HuckleB]

10. That may very well be.

It's just that we were so stoked to see the clothes, when we got them, as they seemed to be A-ok regardless of the sex of the child. And then to have someone say, "oh, if it's a girl, she couldn't wear something with an embroidered train on it," well, I was just astounded.

Yes, it's quite clear that parental and adult reactions are most important.

Salud.

[liontamer]

11. i know a little girl with an adorable shirt with a train on it

screw other's thoughts. Don't even worry about "girls" clothes vs "boys" clothes. Pre-pubescent kids all have the same body type. It's an artificial distinction made by marketers. Just buy clothes that fit and you're set.

[Iris]

12. I wouldn't consider them all that liberal.

I mean, honestly, to criticize what you'd put on an infant to spit up, piss and poop on is pretty closed minded and shallow if you ask me.

My very un-evolved sister-in-law had 2 nursery schemes - if it were a boy - blue with white clouds painted on the wall. For a girl - an alphabet theme (no pink, just primary colors). Now, I ask you, why wouldn't either be appropriate for either sex? And what ever happened to making a nursery gender-netural so it could be used for other babies later?

But be warned - backlash is killer. I knew a woman who was vehemently anti-pink and by the time her child was 2, she' d wear nothing but!

[bloom]

14. I think primary colors make sense also.

One thing that happens, though, is the parent can go the primary colors route and then have relatives giving pink presents to the girls, anyway. So it can be hard to avoid.

I did do what I could and tried to get gender neutral toys and such for the most part.

Another thing that is out of people's control - unless they are willing to move - is the attitudes of the community/teachers/friends, etc. And then of course - there is the whole entire culture...

[Iris]

15. I think parents have a lot of influence, though.

And as for gifts, just because you get them doesn't mean you have to use them or even keep them.

This is one reason why I think b-day parties with presents for 1 and 2 year olds are absurd. My niece got a Barbie doll on her 1st birthday - but, hey, her parents opened the door and all the freaks came right in.

[bloom]

16. gifts

yeah - but when your husbands aunt gives your daughter a home-made pink quilt - what are going to do? :shrug:

It's not like everything was pink - but it can hard to avoid.

Yeah - presents and dolls... sheesh. If you want to be proactive - you should probably send out a note when girls (esp.) are born - to all the relatives, anyway - to think gender neutrally - please.

[Iris]

18. Well, a handmade pink quilt - I wouldn't even take that away from a boy!

[fortyfeetunder]

28. Yes, lots of ideas in that route

I remember shopping for shower presents to a co-worker. She didn't want to know the baby's gender before it was born.

Since a family death prevented me from attending the shower, I asked the mom2B what she needed. She sounded disgusted..."everyone gave me yellow and green".

So I headed off to Old Navy and Oshkosh and found blue jeans and a variety of primary color stuff in unisex clothes (turtlenecks, onesies, etc.) , it takes some looking around, but this stuff can be found.

And BTW, it was a boy.

[LuckyLib]

47. 20 years ago, I had to hunt to find unisex clothes for my baby.

I was also looking for clothing without logos, that had no cartoons junk on it, no Disney. All the cheap clothing had crap on it. It was an effort, but I found stuff through Hannah Anderson, Penny's, etc. My girl never has been interested in frou-frou or clothes, could care less about accessories, loads of clothes, etc. But it takes work to keep the Polo logo off of small children, to keep from buying into commercializing your child.

[bammertheblue]

36. Kids do what they want, no matter what you do.

When I was little, I loved "boy" things (I'm female) and my brother loved "girl" things...my grandma could not get this through her head and she'd always give me dolls and pink things and other stuff I had no interest in. I still remember my mother saying "Oh, you must have opened your brother's present" and switching the gifts, because she always got him something blue or "boy" toys that I wanted. It's quite funny to look back on and wonder why she didn't understand.

[HuckleB]

20. Well, we're all ignorant in some areas, IMHO.

I think the individuals in question are just too into the whole baby scene to see out of that particular window at the moment. Nor do I think they note how overly "practical" we are. Dressing up is not going to be a priority for us, and I think that disappoints some. We're active folks, who will have our kid in the woods and wilderness on most weekends, so pink frills aren't going to make any sense for us.

The child can choose what it likes in regard to colors, so if the backlash cometh, so be it.

Salud!

[Iris]

21. Still, getting sucked into the mainstream culture just because you have a

baby makes me question how genuine someone's professed values are. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but I think it's a dissservice to the child for the parents to abandon all their values just when they are needed the most.

[HuckleB]

23. No argument here.

That's why I was so shocked, probably.

Salud!

[Iris]

25. Yeah. I try not to be too harsh in this realm,

but, jeez, things would be easier on everyone if parents would act like parents instead of another category of consumer!

[Nikia]

19. This thread reminds me of one of my track coaches

She was pregnant and chose not to find out the sex of the baby. This really inferiated her mother-in-law (who thought that my coach wasn't feminine enough anyway). She protested that she didn't know what to give at the shower if she didn't know the sex of the child. My coach and her husband bought a bunch of stuff regardless. To them, it wasn't important that their infant was gendered right away.
I am not sure why people are so obsessed with gendering an infant. If gender is so naturual, this intense early socialization wouldn't be necessary. Eventually children do become who they are, but it is adults, not infants who place a strong priority on gender.

[Iris]

22. I find it hard to believe that the m-i-law had nevere been to a shower

given before people knew the sex of the child. She was just being selfish.

[bumblebee1]

31. Even though my niece knew the gender of her baby,

I gave her a decorative laundry basket full of diapers, rash ointment, shampoo, baby lotion, bathing lotion, baby wipes, an extra sheet for the cradle, a pack of white socks and some t-shirts that were colors other than pink. My niece had a baby girl by c-section on July 29.

[barb162]

39. I think that's a good idea

I am doing that too now; thanks for listing all the stuff for me

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. I don't have kids, but I've bought baby presents for friends and relatives

It's appalling how much clothing for baby boys is overtly macho: infant camouflage suits!, football jerseys, race car driver emblems, cowboy outfits, etc.

When my oldest nephew was born in the early 1990s, I had the worst time finding non-macho clothing for him. I felt so lucky when I found some denim overalls with a plaid flannel shirt, something "boyish" without being macho.

[alphafemale]

26. Speaking of forced froo-froo.

Just remembered we girls weren't even allowed to were slacks to school until the 4th or 5th grade I think.

And then they still wouldn't allow girls to wear jeans.

By the time I graduated HS the dress code had been relaxed to even allow shorts.

[Branjor]

27. I was born in 1952......

went to NYC public elementary and junior high schools and a Lutheran high school. We were NEVER allowed to wear pants throughout the years I attended those schools. I used to think adults had something against girls (but not boys) being comfortable. Once, when I was in second grade, our little street was snowed in and the plow didn't come through, so my mother put a pair of woolen pants on me and a dress over it and walked me to school. On Sundays, I had to wear a dress with a scratchy petticoat underneath. The "merciful" mothers would loosen the ties of all the male cousins (the poor babies must be so uncomfortable), but never seemed to give a thought to the comfort of the little girls in the scratchy petticoats.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Ah yes, snowpants!

In the 1950s and early 1960s, girls couldn't wear pants to school or church, but if it was really, really cold, they could wear big hairy snowpants with suspenders, into which they tucked their dresses, or wear pants under their dresses. But the dresses were a must!

By the time I was in junior high school, no self-respecting girl would want to be seen wearing pants under her dress, and besides which, it wasn't really allowed. However, we had a lot of cold winters, as in highs of 36 degrees below zero, so we used to walk to school wearing pants and carrying a skirt, slip in the back door, where there was a handy restroom, change into the skirt, and stash the pants in our lockers. We'd reverse the process at the end of the day.

I'm a little annoyed at some of the kids today who never dress up for anything, not even a funeral, but from the point of view of comfort and safety, it makes more sense then walking half a mile in subzero temperatures with only nylons or anklets on your legs.

[shimmergal]

32. Of course little girls can wear train motifs!

And what's wrong with cutesy? Babies and little kids look good in cute things; I doubt you'd want her/him to wear somber all the time.

If pink just isn't your thing there's no problem, but I'm coming to hate the knee-jerk reaction of too many women who assume that if a girl or woman likes pink she can't be a feminist. That's pretty shallow. And I'd also ask them: how many parents--even the most radical--ever put their boy baby or toddler in pink clothes? Or does it only go one way?

BTW, that's one of several things I admired about John Kerry. He had self-confidence enough to wear pink ties sometimes. Well--not sure if they were pink in reality--the screen can sometimes distort colors. But they certainly came across as pink on TV.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. Raging feminist here - and I love pink!! n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

52. Me too -- it's pretty and f* anyone who says it makes me less tough!

I also wear make-up and high heels when I want to and sexy lingerie when I want to get it on with my husband.

HA!

Being a feminist does not preclude sexiness--it just precludes allowing yourself to be forced into sexiness in order to please other people.

You rock.

[wickerwoman]

34. There's a great picture of me circa age 4.

My parents were taking pictures of us opening birthday presents to send to all our out of state aunts and uncles. I had just opened a toy vacuum cleaner from my aunt and I have this perfect "What the fuck?" expression on my face.

I had a really strong aversion to pinks and pastels from as far back as I can remember. My parents never said anything about it one way or the other. They always let me do my own thing gender wise and I always gravitated towards tomboy.

I don't think colors are necessarily harmful but the kinds of gifts and toys they play are encouraged to play with could be.

[bammertheblue]

37. That made me think of something.

In my psych of gender class, senior year of college, we were talking about how children's attitudes toward gender change as they grow up. Our professor brought in a picture of her son, about 4 at the time, wearing a frilly tutu thing, playing with a toy lawnmower, and asked us to talk about why he would do this in terms of gender role ideas and such. It was hilarious.

[Katherine Brengle]

53. Don't get me started on the toys...

I already told my husband that if anyone gets our daughter gifts like that, they are going directly to Toys for Tots or the garbage can and being replaced with toys that will encourage her intellectual and individual development.

Bah on the toys.

[tigera2001]

35. I echo most of the sentiment here

The train outfit sounds cute regardless of gender. As someone pointed out, parents can dress their kids however they want but the kid seems to develop their own tastes and personalities, and as long as that's not supressed, I don't see any harm in it.

A few years ago, I knew a family that had three boys. The two oldest boys were, for the most part, what you would call "typical" 8 to 10 year old boys as far as behavior and interests went, but the youngest (probably about 4 or 5 years old) enjoyed wearing dresses and playing with Barbie dolls, and his parents didn't have any problem with that (although they wouldn't let him wear the dresses out in public).

On the other hand, I was pretty much the froo froo "girly" type (except for the fact that I had more male friends than female friends) until I was about 10 years old, and then almost overnight I became an absolute tomboy, and pretty much remained that way to this day (I almost never wear dresses or skirts, I go for action and sci-fi/fantasy movies and I have very little interest in "chick flicks," etc). I'll probably get the "backlash" and my (far in the future) daughters will all be "frou frous." (LOL)

Anyways, I wish you luck in the baby preparations!

[femrap]

40. I just ordered the book, "Same Difference: How Gender

Myths are Hurting our Relationships, our Children, and our Jobs." The authors are Rosalind Barnett and Caryl Rivers.

I remember not being allowed to wear slacks/jeans to school unless it was below 0 degrees. We had a horrid cold spell so I wore jeans to school (junior year of high school) a few days in a row. I was called into the Office and told to go home and change because it was 10 degrees out. I said, I'll go home...but I am not coming back. And that's what I did.

Also, same year, I refused to take Home Economics...said when I needed to cook, I could read and I would get a cookbook. I wanted to take Shop class and learn how to make furniture...NO. Ended up taking Shorthand....which is a fabulous skill...got every word that came out of my Professor's mouths...I swear that is why I got such good grades in college.

[UncleSepp]

42. UGH that stuff stunk

I kept mysteriously not getting shop or auto mechanics on my schedule. Strangely, black girls were starting to be allowed to take shop, but not white girls. Our town was as highly segregated as it could be while still having integrated schools.

When I got out of college, I had been hired to take a contract at this one place, for doing a professional job. It was all over except one detail - I was told I had to dress "professionally". A little bit of pushing revealed this meant I had to wear a skirt or a dress. This happened twice: I was nearly sent home from a job at a credit union for "dressing unprofessionally", in a silk tie, a starched white dress shirt, and extremely conservative pinstriped pants.

BTW... I'm 33 years old.

[UncleSepp]

41. The heartbreak starts so early.

I don't know of any links or any research, but I can tell you... think about green and yellow. A lot of baby clothes come in green and yellow, for buying before you know "what kind" of baby you'll have. Even after you know "what kind" you got, you don't always know anyway, so... yeah, up with the yellow and green. And those blue jean overall thingies.

[noamnety]

44. gender portrayal in advertising

If your child will be exposed to tv, they'll be exposed to gender-based advertising. Be prepared for a lot of commercials with boys being ACTIVE! JUMPING OFF FURNITURE! being ACTION figures! boys dressed as SUPERHEROS!



and also a lot of commercials with girls looking passive, beginning their livelong quest of looking perfect so as to attract (by waiting around passively) the perfect man.



You might want to see if your library has a copy of either Raising Cain or Reviving Ophelia.

[Ally McLesbian]

46. Gender roles...

I can only echo what others have said.

As a male-to-female transperson, my gender presentation can be all over the map. I've been known to prance around in a pink mini one minute, then slip into tomboy clothes and work on my car the next. And that's been my experience all my life - I've been known to play with dolls AND trains about equally. Of course, my parents tried to steer me into traditionally masculine stuff exclusively - to no avail. (Though that hasn't stopped them from claiming that I preferred masculine toys, therefore I have a masculine gender identity, and should not be allowed to live as a woman.)

The point is that gender role needs to be self-determined. You may end up raising a manly man who happens to be sensitive, or a lady who happens to take more initiative and jump in with the boys (and that is a HUGE plus that all of us need).

[Odin2005]

48. The "sex roles are all cultural" meme has been proven wrong.

There was a good show on the Discovery Channel a couple years ago and many of our culturally-created gender stereotypes simply reinforce biological differences. The "big boys don't cry" thing is a good example of this, us men are less likely to show negative emotions and this has been proven to have a biological cause, society just reinforces it.

[Katherine Brengle]

54. So, I should get my daughter a toy broom to play with?

Yes, men and women have biological differences.

This does not excuse the roles our culture has forced ALL of us into.

[fight4my3sons]

55. No, that isn't true. There was a recent show on PBS

Raising Cain, also a book, that actually showed a study in young infants where boys showed more emotion than infant girls. Society reinforces the view that boys should "take things like men" and not show emotion. I have three boys ages 3 and twins 22 months. I encourage them to show their emotions and to express their feelings. I also encourage them to play with different toys including what would be traditionally thought of as girls toys. However, I do not go as far as to dress them in pink

[Katherine Brengle]

49. I would suggest that you follow your intuition --

children, even newborns, have unique looks and personalities, and think about it this way--

You dress yourself, it is reasonable to assume, in clothing that you find comfortable and flattering to your figure and coloring. Why not do the same for baby?

My daughter has beautiful blue eyes, so I like to dress her in blue. She is 2, and has relatively short hair, so when she wears non-gender-specific clothing (i.e., not pink and purty), people think she is a boy.

Screw 'em.

She looks great, she's comfortable, and some other day she'll be wearing a multi-colored calf-lenth sundress with no shoes and a teenie baby ponytail.

Why start telling our kids who they have to be when they are still young enough to live life the way it is supposed to be lived?

I think we can do better than that for our kids :).