That Dirty Word: FEMINIST

[nashville_brook]

I'm having a discussion about That Dirty Word: FEMINIST, and was wondering if I could enlist the help of ya'll in the Women's Forum.

-- How do you respond when people insist that being a "feminist" dilutes the cause of progressivism?

-- Have you ever heard someone to say, "If everyone simply quit seeing the differences that don't matter, there would be no reason for anyone to be an '-ist' (feminist, environmentalist, etc.)?

-- How do you respond when people claim that the term "feminist" is somehow a "fighting word." Incommodious. Unfriendly.

-- How do respond to people who believe it is DIVISIVE to be a feminist?

-- What do you think when people tell us to quit using the term "feminist" because it "lends itself to the pejorative."
__________

To my thinking, when someone claims my ideals our divisive they are worse than blowing me off. They are claiming that my interests injure democracy. It feels like they are telling me to get on the program -- their program -- or stop taking up space. Why is this so common in the realm of gender issues? It would be clearly unacceptable to say this to a person of color or different sexual orientation. When it comes to womens' issues folks feel quite comfortable saying the tent isn't big enough.

Right now I'm not interested in my thoughts on the subject. I'm interested in others' experiences and thoughts.

[shoelace414]

1. To quote...

"If everyone simply quit seeing the differences that don't matter, there would be no reason for anyone to be an '-ist' (feminist, environmentalist, etc.)?

We go to war with the Army we have.. not the army we might want..

We live in the world we have.. not the world we might want.

[nashville_brook]

2. good one!

this person seems to think that the world will go ahead and change itself if we quit using this word he feels uncomfortable with.

[MemphisTiger]

3. the word feminist has become an insult because

we have let it, just like the word liberal. The right is unified and keeps hammering away with their message, and it seems we lose interest and stop fighing. IMO, we need to be better organized than the otherside and fight fire with fire. There is nothing wrong with being a feminist or a liberal.

[nashville_brook]

6. this truly bothers me -- i had not realized how bad it was

i see varying degrees of sexism all over DU. i thought we had left this in the dust. i really did. i guess that's only the case in my little world of flesh and blood people i see on a regular basis who are my friends. i expect this from the pigs i have worked for in the past -- but from a "liberal?" holy crap. how can they expect anything to change with this perspective?

but back to your point -- yes, we HAVE let this happen. after a few years of not hammering, i'm dusting off my tool box and gonna hit some nails. :)

[MemphisTiger]

7. That's the spirit

Just like Dean said "liberal is not a dirty word" and neither is feminism.

[carl_pwccaman]

17. It is bad, but its about more than re-framing

It seems to me that part of the issue is that rhetoric breeds detachment from lived experience and the harsh realities of unfairness and harassment, rape, discrimination, and the limitations imposed on people from social programming.

These are all real things that even I, as a guy, can relate to, when someone tells it to me like it is for them. It helps that I have a twin sister, it helps that I'm bisexual, it helps that I have had friends who are feiminists, 'gender-benders', or sympathetic to and informed aobut the the women's movement. But all of those things can be seen simply as ways that I can get a glimpse of the concrete experiences that make things big issues. The people I relate to intimately, as friends, family, etc., share much about themselves, about what their experience is like.

The rhetoric can't do that. And re-framing it can't do that much better, either, unless the human-to-human element is there in the re-framing or in other ways.

Some of it can be boiled down to the question, "why do you act as if being callous and rude is a virtue?", or "don't you care what other people go through?", in my experience.

But for a movement, more at issue is, what does a movement gain by ignoring or minimizing such aweful experiences? The religious right gains, but those who oppose the religious right, what would they gain? If they got some votes, but the culture shifted to not care or not be concerned to listen and consider the injustices an awful situations people deal with, that wouldn't help our culture, and it wouldn't help on any number of OTHER issues that Democrats face, which we have interests of solidarity.

Solidarity is about realizing that through our common interests and principled support of each other's struggles, we are mutually strengthened. Another side of solidarity is that the opposite simply keeps us from having enough power, organization, coherence, and relevance to effect a change on a larger social scale.

[Moochy]

4. That person you quote is sexist

Tell them that words mean different things depending on what you've learned, through your peers, the media sources you rely upon,and what you choose to beleive.

The referent that progressive can't apparently bring himself to say is "man-hating dyke." His own fears of rejection (lol) and his own sexist, bigoted frame of mind has him defending his sex against an imagined attack. "them's fightin words"

It is divisive, to be a feminist. You are stepping into the reality-based community. Many people in right-wing communities feel threatented by what they falsely perceive to be an attack on their identity. A common fascist attack, to use and exploit misogyny and xenophobia for political gain.

Also for him to accept any negative connotation for the word "feminism" is to accept the lies of the right wing hate machine. Why give them the satisfaction of accepting that deceptive frame?

[nashville_brook]

5. your first point was something i just couldn't find words for

it felt condescending b/c i don't know his educational status. i only know he's a 1000+ post DU'er. but that was my initial thought -- that he just hasn't been schooled in the history of progressive struggle.

a perceived attack -- no doubt! why the imagined zero-sum? he says he's married. well, wouldn't you wish equal rights for your wife? daughters? sisters?

i wouldn't spend any time on this if i didn't think the person was honest in their dedication to progressivism. i really feel sorry for someone so tricked by the dominant frame. it's like a laborer barely making it on refugee wages taking up the side of the capitalist -- the "poor" little rich man who has to actually pay taxes. woe is he.

[Ripley]

8. Have you seen the Feminists Group?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=341

And yes, there are many, many sexist men and enabling women at DU. Why some of the most outrageously vicious ones are tolerated at this site, I'll never understand.

[nashville_brook]

9. i had never noticed the feminists group!

i guess once i found the women's issues group i stopped looking. i think i'll cross-post this.

btw, i love your graphic! is there an explanation?

[Ripley]

10. Black hole.

Artist's conceptual drawing of one, of course! :hi:

[nashville_brook]

11. oh my -- duh!

:)

[nashville_brook]

12. here's my final response:

this is what you said earlier in the thread:
"I'm liberal, damn it! I'm proud of it, and i want my adjective back!"

Feminist is MY adjective. no one gets to take it away. if my issues are going to be addressed, they are going to be addressed by feminsts. who is anyone to say i can't or shouldn't use this word? if it weren't for feminists working on reproductive health issues, fair-pay, child care and violence against women -- no one would. that's how the terms came about. from people doing the work.

it's not a zero-sum game. Feminists don't steal your ability to do your work as a liberal. feminists don't injure your ability to reach your goals. there isn't a finite amount of progressivism in the world. as a matter of fact, everyone benefits when progress is made.

if there is a reason that the term feminist isn't friendly enough for you -- there's most likely a reason that has nothing to do feminists working toward equality. perhaps you are comfortable with a level of sexism that women and men who call themselves feminist, aren't.

bottom line is you are defined by what you do -- if you aren't doing the work to save forests; or to protect reproductive rights -- then you don't DESERVE the title environmentalist or feminist. if you were engaged in these issues you would insist on having the privilage of using the adjective, feminist.

peace out

[nashville_brook]

13. i just realized -- it's not clear that this was my response in the guy

not to ya'll -- hope it wasn't taken the wrong way :) i was in a hurry to sit down to dinner.

[WildClarySage]

14. Who says those differences don't matter?

I'm tired of people saying they're not "---ist" because they don't notice differences in race or gender or whatever. The problem isnt' that the differences aren't being ignored, the problem is that our differences are not being celebrated as the very things that make us unique and special. My gender does have a lot of bearing on who and what I am- while not the end-all, be-all sum of me, any more than anything else. But it's a special part of me and I'm quite happy with it. Ignoring my gender, race, age, or whatever, is ignoring the qualities that make me different from everyone else. If humans are not unique individuals, what does it anything else matter about us? We become interchangable, dispensable, disposable and less worthy of respect.

[omega minimo]

15. Ask em if they remember life before Rush Windbag and if they don't

give em a history lesson.

Then tell em: Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

[alarcojon]

16. Limbaugh was in the forefront of demonizing the word

and he is still at it. From his August 12 show:

I have long told you, for example, Undeniable Truth of Life No. 24, written back in 1987: Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200508160001

[jkappy]

18. not a "dirty" but forbidden word

(most dirty words are really quite cool and acceptable) this word is verboten. its forced meaning is man-hater, its agent a lesbian. and this meaning seems to be almost ironclad.

how else do you explain its absolute absence in an 18 year college teaching career. students just wont use it. i gave up and used the word "sexism," a term they found a bit more acceptable because i used it in conjuction with "racism." still, rarely did any student employ this word either. and only some students have even been able to say or write the word "women." males often say "woman" even when they mean the plural. this is sheer backlash.

and then there's this "youse guys" term which is rampant in this culture---it's almost as if the fairly effective defeat of the term in the seventies called out for massive revenge which just keeps steamrolling.

(also in this 18 year "career" i have perhaps had 10-15 males come out of the closet--either in writing or in class discussions---yet no female has come out--not even on paper, a medium where some will speak of battery or a messed up relationship.)

my references here is to classes in which i assign almost all women writers whether essays or fiction--and a number of gay texts too. also many of these classes taught at a college where several known feminists are employed.