The Male Privilege Checklist

[bloom]

The Male Privilege Checklist

An Unabashed Imitation of an article by Peggy McIntosh
In 1990, Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay called "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack". McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from.

As McIntosh points out, men also tend to be unaware of their own privileges as men. In the spirit of McIntosh's essay, I thought I'd compile a list similar to McIntosh's, focusing on the invisible privileges benefiting men.


The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex.

22. If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.

27. If I buy a new car, chances are I'll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

28. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don't change my name.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she'll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.

41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.

42. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."

44. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

45. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

(Compiled by Barry Deutsch, aka "Ampersand." Permission is granted to reproduce this list in any way, for any purpose, so long as the acknowledgment of Peggy McIntosh's work is not removed. If possible, however, I'd appreciate it if folks who use it could tell me about how they used it; my email is barry-at-amptoons-dot-com.)

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/09/15/the-male-privilege-checklist/

[Caoimhe]

1. ugh ugh ugh

good *liberal* men know they are a partner 50/50 not a master/slave thing

Those that feel different nauseate me

[Bassic]

48. They nauseate me as well. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

114. So I guess you think none of those privilege applies to you.

You'll note that many of them are structural and cultural constructs, not necessarily things you do consciously or of your own volition.

[More Than A Feeling]

2. Ok, so what are individual guys supposed to do about all that?

any suggestions?

[Bjornsdotter]

3. In my opinion

Just be aware that this stuff is still going on, that's all I ask.

Cheers!

[mzteris]

95. I asked a similar question

about "White Privilege" at a lecture given by an African American female writer (her name escapes me at the moment...) she said -

just KNOWING that it exists is a first step. To know that my "privilege" is completely UNEARNED. Refusing to be a tacit part of it. Trying to subvert it. Standing up for the rights of those oppressed. Acknowledging the injustices. To USE my "white privilege" for Good and not Evil - - -

she said it can't be erased - not yet. it's too engrained in the culture. But for every one (who benefits) who really does understand that exists and does their best to not further it - is one more step in the right direction.

[Vincent441]

119. I don't believe there is such a thing as white privilege

[Scout]

120. and.... ? i guess you are probably white? probably a man? n/t

[lukasahero]

121. Alas poor Vincent - he disrupted poorly

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=255678

[Scout]

122. oh thanks. :hi: n/t

[bloom]

4. Individual guys....

In general - treating women as equals, as people - instead of going along with the culture that increasing tries to dehumanize women.

It depends on the guy - what he could do in his life.

I was watching the "Earth to America" show last night and wishing that whoever put it together had tried to have more balance as far as including women comedians/musicians/actors. (Individual people could make suggestions to shows like that when they notice bias.) So it's like - if the show had tried to include women - it would have been like one of those things on the checklist - like they were included JUST because they were a woman. But that's better than not including them. The idea is - that women should be more included/treating like equals - even if it is a conscious effort - until it is normal.

It should seem abnormal to people to have such a show and have so few women - as if it's a "men's show" or something. If such a show was that skewed toward women - it would be seen as a "women's show".

Individual people can stop using language that suggests women are inferior - ie. "killer whores", "pussification" - the idea that it takes "balls" to get anything done, etc.

Share mundane chores. Consider both careers when choosing where to live.

Basically take most of the things on the list and try to avoid contributing to the problem.


A man posted this on a different thread - suggestions for men (to help stops rapes):

What advice would I give men?

(1) Don’t get drunk unless you either know that you do not become aggressive when drunk or unless you have a trusted (and stronger than you) sober friend who will restrain you if you do become aggressive.

(2) If you plan on having sex, make certain that you do not get drunk or high or whatever enough that your ability to comprehend whether or not your partner has consented is impaired.

(3) Do not make close friends with anyone or any group who displays tendencies that make you think he would be a rapist; you don’t want to get into a situation where you friend or friends ask you to get involved in a gang rape. Plus, if you need to turn one of them in to the police later, not being a friend will make it a lot easier.

(4) Do not take substances that are known to cause aggressiveness (e.g. anabolic steroids) outside of genuine medical need.

(5) Actively intervene if you see a man trying to attack a woman (I have actually done this - intervened, that is). At the very least, call the police.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/11/21/british-poll-rape-and-victim-blaming/

[belle]

6. Next time you're in a mixed discussion group

(at work or casually) you might want to hang back and observe a bit--who speaks more? Who looks at whom more while they're speaking? Who interrupts more frequently?

An easy thing to do--log into an AOL chatroom with a female handle. See what kind of response you get.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poncius]

126. What advice I would give men? WTF!?!

(1) Don’t get drunk unless you either know that you do not become aggressive when drunk or unless you have a trusted (and stronger than you) sober friend who will restrain you if you do become aggressive.

(2) If you plan on having sex, make certain that you do not get drunk or high or whatever enough that your ability to comprehend whether or not your partner has consented is impaired.

(3) Do not make close friends with anyone or any group who displays tendencies that make you think he would be a rapist; you don’t want to get into a situation where you friend or friends ask you to get involved in a gang rape. Plus, if you need to turn one of them in to the police later, not being a friend will make it a lot easier.

(4) Do not take substances that are known to cause aggressiveness (e.g. anabolic steroids) outside of genuine medical need.

(5) Actively intervene if you see a man trying to attack a woman (I have actually done this - intervened, that is). At the very least, call the police.

THIS IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS BULLSHIT I HAVE EVER READ. ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS IN ORDER TO KEEP FROM RAPING SOMEONE THAN YOU HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS. I MEAN LOOK AT #3...DON'T MAKE FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE WHO MIGHT INVOLVE YOU IN GANG RAPE??? MAYBE I'M WEIRD BUT I HAVE NEVER HAD ONE OF MY BUDDIES COME UP TO ME AND SAY "HEY MAN, WE'RE TAKING TURNS RAPING THIS BITCH IN THE BACK, DO YOU WANT A PIECE?" I MEAN WTF!?! HERE IS A GOOD RULE OF THUMB TO KEEP FROM RAPING WOMEN:DON'T RAPE WOMEN. FOR THAT MATTER, DON'T RAPE ANYONE. ALSO, THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAKING SEXIST COMMENTS AND COMMITTING RAPE. NEITHER IS GOOD BUT SAYING SEXIST SHIT NOT LEAD TO RAPE.

[Skittles]

5. the last one says it all

men have the privelege of being unaware of their privilege

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

9. you are living proof

yes INDEED

[Heddi]

10. Ever think that you're dealing with the wrong women?

women want to be dominated? uh...no.

"Chicks" don't want an intellectual equal? Well, I don't find someone who refers to women as "chicks" as being intellectual anything, much less an equal (maybe equal to...protozoa). I love my husband who does not dominate me and who is an intellectual equal. He is no bad boy.

But then again, you're SO sure you have women...I mean "chicks" figured out, right?

Here's a hint--women might respect you more if you address them appropriately and not in the way a 12 year old prepubescent boy describes the woman on a pinup calendar. :eyes:

Oh! But you've got 55 years of experience! Oh ho!! You know it all :rofl:

[lukasahero]

12. I love the smell of misogyny in the morning... eom

[funflower]

24. Amen! Amen! Amen! THAT says it all!

I could just spit at all of the "nice guys" at my place of employment who seem to blame the fact that woman after woman crashes and burns (if she even gets in the door at all) while man after man (competent and otherwise) easily fits in and and rises to the top on the WOMEN who "just don't have what it takes." :mad:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

59. The last one is just a dig, not an argument.

It's not something that can possibly be refuted by a man, because clearly, while I don't think I receive any privilege I'm unaware of, I would be, because I'm unaware of it.

As such, it's effectively an attack on all men that no man can possibly refute, by definition, which I think is not something to be praised.

It does say a lot, but about whoever wrote the list, not about the state of gender relations.

Also, given that it was written by a man, a rather obvious question presents itself...

[nashville_brook]

68. i'm sure i've received white privilage that i wasn't aware of

and i don't feel a need to refute that. i don't take it as a dig. i think it's giantly unfair and sad that we are pitted against each other and i'd much rather live aware of it than not.

i don't know what to say to men who would take offense at that last point. i guess the only thing TO say, is that's an very unattractive position to take.

[noamnety]

69. Well stated.

If you're a man, and you've walked down the street without some asshole honking at you and yelling crude things or making crude gestures, that would be an example of you receiving male privilege without probably giving it a second thought. You're just walking down the street, from your point of view.

As a white person, if you've ever been driving a beat up car in an upper class suburb, and a cop in the next lane HASN'T pulled you over, you just got a helping of white privilege. And you're likely unaware it even happened. And that's not a dig or an insult, I don't know why a person would find it offensive for somebody to acknowledge that out loud.

[NC_Nurse]

7. How about the fact that

traditionally "female" professions like mine are always paid less, no matter how high the responsibility? Even thought more men are nurses now...

Teaching. nursing, day care, elder care, and so on....it's hard work people!

And I'm not talkin' about the chimp's version of hard work! x(

[Heddi]

11. Student Nurse here--graduate as RN in June

I find it laughable that I will get paid significantly less than a plumber---not to dismiss plumbers, because gosh knows they're a godsend when the toilet's overflowing into the sink, and the dishwasher is overflowing into the tub and god knows WHAT is backing up into the washer.

HOWEVER---I don't think that a plumber has to know anything CLOSE to the basics I'll have to know just to be qualified to take the NCLEX. Plumbers, I would guess, Don't make life-and-death decisions several times in an 8 or 12 hour shift. I would also wager to bet that plumbers do not regularly dole out an average of 15 meds per patients to, on average (at our hospital, anyways) 8-10 patients, on time, three times a day, every day, knows why those meds are prescribed, how they interact with the body, how they affect other meds and treatments, and what their side effects and overdose s/sx are.

But then again, plumbers, generally, are men. As are construction workers, as are masons, as are street workers. All of whom get paid more than nurses, who are generally, female (albeit with a minimum of 2 years of Nursing School under their belt PLUS the 2 years of pre-reqs required to get INTO nursing school PLUS 2 state licensing exams (PN & RN) PLUS (depending on the state) hours and hours and hours of CE credits every year just to MAINTAIN THAT LICENSE)

But we're just nurses. :shrug: we don't do nothin' that a plumber couldn't do (although i'd like to see a plumber insert a folley cath in a woman with bilateral hip fractures who can't move her hips outwards. Oh and you're in a dark hospital room with no direct lighting, nosy bedmate family next door trying to peek through the curtains, roommmate screaming for his lunch and more water, demanding more attention, as you're standing there DESPERATELY trying not to break sterile field AND get this woman's legs spread AND get the labia spread AND get the cath inserted successfully AND go dole out meds AND make sure to remember to chart the temp of the guy down the hall AND calll the Dr back about whatever AND...maybe...go home 3 hours after your shift ends...)

[NMMNG]

49. The "caregiver" professions always get much less than the average

male "trade" professions. I know--I've been in them for the past 18.5 years.


At my weekend job I provide full care to 4 developmentally disabled adults who are completely unable to care for themselves. I bathe, dress, diaper and groom them, and take care of their home. I am responsible for administering their medications, know what the meds are, what they are prescribed for, and know the side effects of said medications so I can discern signs of such side effects in the clients, as they are unable to self-report them. I need to know what each client's goals are as stated in their IP (Individual Plan), even if they are not goals that get worked on during my shift.

I need to be able to lift the clients (who all weigh around 100lbs) if they fall, purposely drop to the ground during a behavioral episode, are sedated for medical reasons, or otherwise require such assistance. I must be able to manage behavioral outbursts, including the use of physical restraints if needed for physical aggression or SIB (Self Injurious Behavior) that gets out of control. I routinely get hit, kicked, scratched and puked on.

I'm required to know each of their specific Behavior Plans, what their "Target Behaviors" are, and what the interventions are for each TB. I can be quizzed at any time by a supervisor on Target Behaviors, interventions for TBs, clients' medications, medication side-effects, clients' IP goals, and so on. I also am required to maintain certification in CPR, First Aid and multiple state and agency required trainings as condition of my employment.

And for all of this I get less than $10 per hour.

[raccoon]

75. People are so concerned about the quality of day care workers and nursing home workers,

and yet both these groups are very low-paid and their jobs have a low status.

Go figure.

Edited for clarity.

[MountainLaurel]

13. Librarian here

I hear you loud and clear: Need a master's degree to become a librarian and in some areas that'll get you $25K a year.

And that was the goal. In the beginning, men were librarians and they got paid well for it. And then, libraries started to serve people other than elite males -- thinking of the movement to provide library services to immigrants and *gasp* children (another factor in how bad your professional prestige and pay is: who is the primary audience?). So, libraries recruited women into the field because they could same some $$$.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Not only that--in the nineteenth century, most secretaries were men,

and they were well paid.

The invention of the typewriter led to the feminization of secretarial work, because it was believed that women's smaller fingers could type faster than men's. As more and more women became secretaries, both pay and prestige went down.

Even in the former Soviet Union, medical doctor was a low-paying profession because most doctors were women.

[femrap]

17. I had heard that men were the first Typists...but

when they discovered it was pretty boring work, they decided women could do it. And now with the technological onset of computers, there is no more typing....it is now KEYBOARDING! lol.

And I read that in the Soviet Union, doctors are regarded as 'body mechanics.' It's the same thing as repairing a car. It is not a highly valued profession.....therefore, it is given to women.

I could never understand how a garbage collector could earn more money than an administrative assistant.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Well, I once had a roommate who was a lecturer at the Yale Art Gallery,

for which the minimum qualification was an M.A. in Art History.

The gallery lecturers (all women) were paid less than the security guards (all men), who did nothing but sit in a corner and stare into space all day.

[One_Life_To_Give]

22. There is a reason men avoid this field.

Our dads would have kicked our butts for persuing it.

"Son, you have to have a career that can support a wife and kids."

Maybe times have changed now. But when I was growing up it was assumed that you would have to be able to support a wife and kids. Your spouse might work if she wanted to. But you didn't have a choice. You had to have a good job/career that could support the family.

[Morgana LaFey]

65. A post filled to the brim with the sexism of the era

and all that goes completely unnoticed by the poster.

Amazing



I should probably dissect it:

There is a reason men avoid this field. Our dads would have kicked our butts for persuing it. "Son, you have to have a career that can support a wife and kids."

* If women had been paid equitably, it wouldn't have been an issue and young men could have pursued their dreams.

* Women were kept in low-paying jobs, and only "gender appropriate" jobs at that (caretaking roles) and their inability to support their families -- or help support their families -- was really a vicious circle: can't get a good-paying job, so have to rely on some man who can (thus forcing them into marriages in order to survive economically, wheether they were suited for marriage or happily married or not) and then they used the excuse that some man has to have the good-paying job because he has a wife and children to support to KEEP women out of good paying jobs. But many times, so did the woman have a family to support. Men dropped dead without hefty insurance and left and got drunk repeatedly and wouldn't/couldn't work back then too, not to mention that who "needed" the job more was never a reason for hiring or keeping an employee, and shouldn't be.

Maybe times have changed now. But when I was growing up it was assumed that you would have to be able to support a wife and kids.

Has it changed with you? Do you have kids? How did you raise them? The BEST, most egalitarian (feminist!) way to raise BOTH SEXES is to encourage them to pursue their unique talents and abilities -- Follow their bliss, listen to their hearts' desires -- AND be prepared to support themselves, both in the work world and at home doing "life maintenance tasks" such as sewing on buttons, cleaning the house, cooking and doing dishes, and yes, even taking care of children.

Your spouse might work if she wanted to. But you didn't have a choice. You had to have a good job/career that could support the family.

So men were trapped too. Women didn't have much of a choice to work and men didn't have a choice not to work, or not to work at the best-PAYING job they could find (as opposed, perhaps, to something that fit their natural talents and interests and fed their souls). A truly and authentically feminist world would fix all that.

[PanoramaIsland]

123. Excellent examples of how patriarchy hurts and restricts men as well as women. n/t

[MountainLaurel]

14. Thank you for posting this.

It's an oldie but a goodie.

[omega minimo]

15. The Male Gaze

Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex.
The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

plus

I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex.
The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

plus

As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

plus

Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex.
Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.

plus

On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

EQUALS

I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

51. Exactly!! The Male Gaze is totally self-absorbed!!!

You've ALMOST got it!

Try reading the OP-- that might help :hi:

[bigmonster]

19. As a single parent...

Number 11. "If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent." kind of hits home for me. I'm a single dad and I get this all the time.

and....32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.....I will go one further. A younger woman would be called into doubt based on what time of the month it is; an older woman would be called into doubt based on what stage of life she's in (i.e., hot flashes, etc.) So either a woman is menstruating and can't make important decisions, or she's not menstruating and can't make important decisions. Right.

[Bunny]

20. And don't forget - all any woman really needs is a good hard

fuck - it'll set her straight every time. Or so they would have you believe. :eyes:

Welcome to DU, bigmonster! :hi:

[newyawker99]

23. Hi bigmonster!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[funflower]

25. Welcome to DU, bigmonster!

I'm somewhat new to this forum. Nice to see so many enlightened men here (number 324: If you are not a neanderthal, you will be praised for being extradinarily enlightened!)

[AnneD]

125. Number 11 can have sever legal implications....

If a busy distracted dad leaves a baby in the car and the baby dies in the hot car....I can assure you that he will get off and maybe even get sympathy where as the busy distracted mom gets the book thrown at her AND the condemnation of our society. Women are suppose to always be the responsible ones.

Man says let's go for a drive. Woman says ok and begins to pack the baby things into the diaper bag. Man puts his car keys in his pocket and comes in where the woman is trying to dress the baby while juggling the diaper bag and says I'm ready.

Or how about this....woman is 8.5 months pregnant. Man wants to go to the mall to get some shirts. Woman comes along for exercise. At the end of the trip and they start out to the long walk out to the car, man is several feet ahead and she realizes he has given her all his bags and his bill fold. She stops and calls out his name and say...What is wrong with this picture? He stops and turns around. It actually takes him several minutes to figure it out.

Welcome to DU. I am the first to say Dems and DU guys are far better than freepers any day of the week.

[One_Life_To_Give]

21. Guess I am unaware

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible. But if you were you could never tell anyone that you didn't think everything was fine.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible. As long as we call 20% of the rate women face negligable. And forget that a third of registered sex offenders are women.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent. Unless your a stay at home dad. In which case we will all know that you are a lazy good for nothing.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision. Just the butt of alot of jokes.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. Nope, just which part of the anatomy you are thinking with.

And the one category from the OP I can't comprehend.
Why do women think that whatever they do reflects on all women?

[lukasahero]

70. "Why do women think that whatever they do reflects on all women?"

Because the question is always asked: Is it just her or is it "women".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=880200&mesg_id=880200

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CBHagman]

27. I am not sure about #26!

It depends on the guy and -- quaint term warning -- his station in life. Some guys wear jeans from Wal-Mart, and some bespoke suits from Savile Row.

[Cherry Blossom]

28. Hmm. Fair Enough.

I generally accept this list if were speaking on advantages men share over women, but I think we must also realize that there are a host of advantages women share over men as well, so its not as if it is only men who get “certain perks with the works.”

There are a few things on the list that I definitely question though. Besides from half of the things being highly subjective and hard to verify, some things defined as “privileges” I wouldn’t consider a privilege at all. Example:

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.
I think that is something entirely decided by the individual in question and not general societal interpretation.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
I’ll flat out disagree with this one. From what I’ve personally experienced (and I suppose I can usePE since this is all subjective), it seems as though women are seen as better than the man she’s equaled if there is a lack of women achieving that status to begin with.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as tobe negligible:1 out of every 8 rape victims are male, so I’ll disagree with this.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be:Gender is utterly irrelevant to me so I couldn’t care less if the person was a male or female. It doesn’t benefit me in the least.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters: Trust me, that isn’t a privilege in the least for boys who generally don’t wish to be active or outgoing.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time: Highly subjective and completely left to the individuals own personal style preferences really.

37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers:
The keyword here is “we”, and I believe people have the right to make the best lifestyle choices for themselves.

45. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege:I disagree. I don't believe most men are ignorant and blind to basic realities.

[omega minimo]

32. See #45 Male Privilege, like White Privilege, if you got it you got it

Get it?

[Kipling]

29. I understand all that. But it is very hard to do anything about it.

In my capacity as a manager at a brewery, I am often given the job of recruiting workers. I have often faced the horrific dilemma of choosing a man for a job who is the best applicant, or a women who was just a little behind on confidence and ambition. It's very, very difficult. There's no way to tell whether they are genuinely not as good, or just being held back by low self esteem or biased education. I also find that men tend to want jobs more - women often seem to almost expect to be turned down, which makes it very tempting to do so even if you know they have been beaten back by experience. I have usually chosen the most able and experienced applicant, who is sadly all too often male, unless a female applicant seems to be held back purely by low confidence.
The only answer I can think of is affirmative action to force open the door to women while they are young and still have a chance.
Maybe I'm just prejudiced.

[omega minimo]

33. #14 #15 #20 #35

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.

[Morgana LaFey]

66. Yes, you are not only prejudiced, you've been actively discriminating

against women candidates for jobs you have, which is against the law. (And yes, I realize this and most other posts in this thread are months and months old. This one cries out for a response nonetheless.)



In my capacity as a manager at a brewery, I am often given the job of recruiting workers. I have often faced the horrific dilemma of choosing a man for a job who is the best applicant, or a women who was just a little behind on confidence and ambition. It's very, very difficult. There's no way to tell whether they are genuinely not as good, or just being held back by low self esteem or biased education.

Or by societal expectations that she not be shrill or a castrating bitch? Or an overly ambitious ball-breaking, castrating bitch? Sheesh.

I'm sorry, since I worked for a while in human resource management, this post of yours has me in a rage. I'm beginning to worry about my blood pressure.

HERE'S WHAT YOU NEED TO DO: Get a copy of the job description for the job in question (or devise one, with expert assistance) and conform your analysis of the job applicant to track with that. "Confidence" and display of same -- certainly as shown in one job interivew -- is far too subjective a criterion on which to base a hiring decision, especially when the dufus conducting the interview isn't even sensitive enougb to the whole issue to avoid discriminating against women.

What level of experience is REQUIRED in order to do this job? What level of education is REQUIRED in order to do this job? You can define what kinds of personal qualities are REQUIRED to do the job, but you'd better be damned sure you are able to determine whether or not any applicant has that WITHOUT "assuming" and all the while avoiding gender stereotype traps that you've laid so neatly for yourself, and with a lot more sensitivity to minority issues. Don't they TRAIN you about these things at that brewery of yours? You're a walking Equal Employment Opporutnity Commission case, you know that, all by yourself.

I also find that men tend to want jobs more - women often seem to almost expect to be turned down, which makes it very tempting to do so even if you know they have been beaten back by experience.

What a crock. What an unmitigated crock. They "SEEM" to want the jobs more? Could that be because they were trained from childhood up to be aggressive and ambitious about such things whereas women were trained from childhood up to be people-pleasers and "ladylike" which specifically precludes being aggressive and ambitious about such things? My God, man. THINK, for heaven's sake. What on earth do you think the Women's Movement was all about in the first place? Huh? THINK!!

Here's something else: You don't have the RIGHT to turn down a member of a protected class for a job "just because" they SEEM to think they're about to be turned down. That is discrimination of the worst kind -- totally senseless discrimination. It's not even as GOOD as the typical sexist discrimination that "she didn't have much confidence" or "she didn't seem to want the job as much."

And on that (them wanting the job) -- how did you explain the job to these women? Did you do it in an enthusiastic and encouraging way? Or did you sort of bad-mouth it, sound discouraging, uninterested, conveying the message she probably wouldn't like it or wouldn't succeed? That sort of thing would be a killer, and it would seem like it was all her fault, her doing.

You've got some serious work to do. If you care (and I have no reason to believe you do), you should do some serious work on the whole thing. There are no doubt scads of resources available on the web. I would strongly encourage you to avail yourself of them. You owe it to yourself, your company (so you can stop putting them in legal jeapardy), your principals, and your nation.

I have usually chosen the most able and experienced applicant, who is sadly all too often male, unless a female applicant seems to be held back purely by low confidence.

Your confidence jobs better damn well require a good dose of confidence in order to do them -- just what the hell kind of jobs are they, anyway?

Do you tell the women you interview that you (think you) need scads of confidence in the person who takes this job, and ask them how confident they are and can they TELL YOU about times when they've displayed lots of confidence? Have you said to them, "You don't seem to feel very confident. Is that because you don't want to come on too strong, or are you not sure of yourself and your abilities?"

This reveals such a big part of what discrimination against women and minorities works: it's not what they know or their experience, but subjective crap -- and I do mean crap -- that the interviewer isn't even qualified to determine. But that won't stop him. Nosirree. He's looking for someone who looks and acts like him. Full of bravado and confidence in his abilities when in truth, he's a dud.

The only answer I can think of is affirmative action to force open the door to women while they are young and still have a chance.
Maybe I'm just prejudiced.

Yeah, you're prejudiced. And worse, you don't even know it. Affirmative action isn't required here -- you following the anti-discrimination in employement laws is all that's required here. Absolutely sickening, but incredibly enlightening.

And let me make sure you understand this: affirmative action wouldn't require you to accept candidates who aren't qualified -- just

[Ally McLesbian]

30. The guy who originally wrote this list

is somehow sexist himself, as many of the assumptions are pretty darn sexist.

He also named ten reasons why gay marriage must be outlawed. Nuff said. A true believer in gender equity is never a homophobe.

[bloom]

44. He didn't write "Ten Reasons Same-Sex Marriage Is Wrong" and anyway...

it's a joke...

Ten Reasons Gay Marriage Is Wrong

1. Being gay is not natural. And as you know Americans have always rejected unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

etc.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/15/ten-reasons-same-sex-marriage-is-wrong/

[Ally McLesbian]

47. AH...

I got it now :)

[Orrex]

31. A few responses

Overall, the list is pretty hard to refute, but I have to take exception with a few entries:

3. If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.
If I am never promoted, I can never attribute it to my sex, either.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.
That's patently false, to the point of being really offensive.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.
Conversely, if I choose to stay home with to raise my child, people will likely think me less "manly" and something of a deadbeat.

21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex.
On the other hand, gross financial incompetence is seen as "unmanly," so even if the carelessness isn't attributed to my sex, I will be seen as a poor representative of my sex.

22. If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex.
Overly aggressive driving is often seen as a behavior of a "typical male."

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.
Not true, in my experience. Among mature adults, a promiscuous male is no less derided than a promiscuous female, but YMMV.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.
On the other hand, the range of "business" attire is sharply limited, as compared with the wide range of clothing perceived as suitable for a woman in the office. "Office formal" is a stupid requirement for either sex—let's get rid of it!

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.
Almost completely true, but acceptable office attire, at least, costs me about 5 to 10x as much as acceptable "woman's" attire in the same workplace.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
True, but a man can be called an arrogant asshole, or a bastard, or a blowhard, a creep, a fag, etc. The list goes on, and it's hardly confined to aggressive-woman-equals-bitch.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)
I agree with this one, but it requires special attention. An assault (sexual or otherwise) against a partner or spouse should be treated at least as severely as an assault against a stranger. Why this is not the case is utterly beyond me. A man who hits his wife or girlfriend or partner even once should be jailed.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.
No argument there. Get rid of all of religions, I say, because they promote magical thinking and are poisonous to rational thought.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
Yet another reason to get rid of them.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
True, but likely contingent upon other factors, such as relative wage-level, availability of benefits, etc. It's still bullshit, but the underlying causes deserve closer and more particular attention.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.
True, but stereotypical media-male images abound, too. The fact that the males' image is not entirely clothing-based is insignificant.

43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."
Do guys really do that to women? Damn, that's pretty lame!

[omega minimo]

34. Try to find a man who gains insight from the list without refuting it

Then come back and read it again.

[Orrex]

35. I should just accept it as true, without consideration? No thanks.

Some of the points were dead-on, as I mentioned. But the points with which I took issue were, I felt, skewed off-target and unfair.

It benefits no one to pretend that all men are hegemonic controllers who only benefit from their sex. Some of us are actually conscious of the issue and make an effort to defy sexist stereotypes. But those stereotypes cut both ways, and it's vital that they be addressed whether they diminish women or men.


Is it, in your view, sexist to disagree with part of the list? What qualifies this author's work as sacrosanct and above criticism or disagreement?

Again, no thanks.

[omega minimo]

36. So you didn't even try to find one, did you? INSIGHT I said insight

not "accept it as true, without consideration."

That man might help you understand that the list is a generalization (not "stereotype") of the experience of all women, not an indictment of individual men. Of course there are differences in individual behavior, just as there would be if this was a list about "white privilege."

That man might help you slow down and reflect on the experience of those living within that system, rather than immediately try to "take issue with" and feel some points "skewed off target and unfair"-- TO YOU! Have you thought about how this represents an entire world wide system that is "unfair" TO WOMEN?

That man might point out that if you boiled the whole list down to the fact that most authority figures (generally) and all representations (generally) of GOD are male, it might help you RELATE to the experience of women and have more RESPECT for what the list is describing.

"It benefits no one to pretend that all men are hegemonic controllers who only benefit from their sex."

Again, no one made any such claim. All men GENERALLY benefit from their sex and that is undeniable. That man might point our that the need to "take issue" rather than discuss the issue (with consideration of how it affects women) IS controlling behavior, reinforcing the notion that men can't discuss these things except in terms of how it is ABOUT THEM.

You might be glad that you took my suggestion to find that man and gain some insight and understand the benefits of learning something as distinguished from "accept it as true, without consideration."

Consideration is all we ask for.

[Orrex]

37. What insight might I gain, perchance?

That men pretty much run the show? No kidding.

Consideration is all we ask for.

Well, I read the list, and as I've mentioned twice now there are points that are flatly correct. "Consideration" doesn't mean that I can't dispute aspects of the list.

For that matter, lists of this sort are hopelessly ineffective because they're inherently (and, I would say, deliberately) divisive, and they blur the issue beyond any useful benefit. The very fact that you bristle, when I point out that some of the listed "benefits" are not as cut-and-dried as the author would have them, demonstrates that point very clearly.

the need to "take issue" rather than discuss the issue (with consideration of how it affects women) IS controlling behavior

If that's the case, then the act of identifing "taking issue" as inferior to "discussing the issue" is likewise a controlling behavior. You seek, in essence, to declare certain aspects of the discussion to be off-limits, and I confess that I don't see a benefit in that, for anyone.

Further, when an incorrect generalization is made about a group of which I am a member, I feel justified in making a correction. It seems to me that "taking issue" in such a case is discussing the issue, unless I am to take the incorrect generalization as a given and then proceed as if it were true.

All men GENERALLY benefit from their sex and that is undeniable.

Is the counterpoint, then, that all women GENERALLY suffer a detriment from their sex?

reinforcing the notion that men can't discuss these things except in terms of how it is ABOUT THEM.

Forgive me, but a list of 30+ "benefits" of being male is about "THEM," is it not? The notion that men (or a man) can't discuss "these things" except narcissistically is likewise a stereotype, in this case calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list.

If I were to propose a list of 30 "benefits" of being female, would you seek out women who match to the list, or would you first note those entries with which you disagree?

[omega minimo]

38. Well that's really up to you, isn't it?

"What insight might I gain, perchance?"

If you are interested in an answer to that, read #36 or the OP

"In 1990, Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay called "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack". McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from."

"TO ILLUSTRATE THESE INVISIBLE SYSTEMS"

""Consideration" doesn't mean that I can't dispute aspects of the list."

Rather than consider the illustration of invisible system, you refute 30% of the items on the list; back to "individual acts of meanness."

"The very fact that you bristle, when I point out that some of the listed "benefits" are not as cut-and-dried as the author would have them, demonstrates that point very clearly."

The very fact that you accuse me of "bristling" when I gently pointed out the obvious, could go on the original list. How many times have women posters on DU heard that we are "angry" when we are discussing something that men don't want to hear.

"If that's the case, then the act of identifing "taking issue" as inferior to "discussing the issue" is likewise a controlling behavior. You seek, in essence, to declare certain aspects of the discussion to be off-limits, and I confess that I don't see a benefit in that, for anyone."

This sort of competitive antagonism is absurd and completely out of place here. Especially if you are as conscious as you claim to be (I give you the benefit of the doubt).

"Forgive me, but a list of 30+ "benefits" of being male is about "THEM," is it not?"

NO. "McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from." That list was not "about whites.'" This list is not "about men." Accept it. :evilgrin:

"The notion that men (or a man) can't discuss "these things" except narcissistically is likewise a stereotype, in this case calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list."

Despite the benefit of the doubt, this self-obsessed attitude reinforces the stereotype. Nothing is "calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list." Jeebus, that's about you TOO! Can't you see how funny that is? :rofl:

"Embrace the list"? I chose the word "consideration" as in "consider" the examples and show "consideration" to the people living within those "invisible systems"-- and "consider" what that might be like IF IT WAS YOU.

"If I were to propose a list of 30 "benefits" of being female, would you seek out women who match to the list"

I didn't suggest you "seek out men who match to the list" -- I suggested a man who considered the list without refuting it might help you with relating to the experience which it was intended to illustrate; illustrate for those who have a hard time understanding what it's like to live life controlled by an invisible system........ who have a hard time understanding because of male privilege.

:hi:

[Orrex]

40. I imagine that this is the crux of our disagreement

Rather than consider the illustration of invisible system, you refute 30% of the items on the list; back to "individual acts of meanness."

The male dominance of society, obvious and foregrounded (and often catastrophic) throughout recorded history, comes to us now as part of the background "hum" of our society, so that it is all but taken for granted, to the point of going wholly unnoticed. The manifestations of this dominance are many and subtle, even to those affected by them and/or benefiting from them. See? I get it.

My point is that the point--the invisible pervasiveness of male societal dominance--is poorly served by a dubiously accurate checklist of the benefits of being male. Such a list can only inspire a sort of fact-checking, especially when one or more entries on that list are only anecdotally true if at all.

The list is not a one-to-one enumeration of All Things Great About Being Male but is instead a general outline of the overarching "benefit" itself. Again, I get it.

Having said all that, I would like to comment additionally:

The very fact that you accuse me of "bristling" when I gently pointed out the obvious

I don't know that it was "gentle," complete with shouty-CAPITALS and a generally right-back-atcha tone. I would describe it as "bristling" whether you were a woman or a man.

Nothing is "calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list." Jeebus, that's about you TOO! Can't you see how funny that is?

Why is it objectionable that a representative of a group should respond to a commentary upon that group? If one were make a blanket statement like "women don't know how to use computers," would you reply that, in general, that statement is correct? Or might you consider exceptions to that statement, perhaps including yourself? I rather suspect the latter.

Elsewhere in the thread someone wondered why a woman, according to The List, might be inclined to think that an opinion about her is an opinion of women in general. I can't guess whether that's actually true, but the fact that the perception exists seems to correspond with this notion that, for men, it's "all about them." And, for that matter, it's similarly narcissistic.

[omega minimo]

41. Insight, consideration & "rtbackatcha tone" are in the eye of the beholder

omega minimo
36. So you didn't even try to find one, did you? INSIGHT I said insight
not "accept it as true, without consideration."

SHOUTING “insight”-- now THAT’S funny! B-) I reserve the right to use caps for EMPHASIS (because I lack your elegant html skills) without being accused of “bristling” “complete with shouty-CAPITALS and a generally right-back-atcha tone.” One wonders if you perceive “a generally right-back-atcha tone” in non-women’s rights areas of the discussion board; and whether you bristle at it in quite the same way.

I took a look at the White Privilege Checklist. The introduction may have created a different context (especially in the classroom) and been received differently with her suggestions:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
White Privilege Checklist

Peggy McIntosh, Associate Director of the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, describes white privilege as “an invisible package of unearned assets, which I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was ‘meant’ to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks” (McIntosh, 1989).

The following are examples of ways white individuals have privilege because they are white.

:bounce: (Non Shout Emphasis) Please read the list and place a check next to the privileges that apply to you or that you have encountered.

At the end, try to list at least two more ways you have privilege based on your race.

http://www.unh.edu/residential-life/diversity/aw_article17.pdf.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:nBwgEbdwuwwJ:www.unh.edu/residential-life/diversity/aw_article17.pdf+male+privilege+checklist&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Racial privilege is only one forms of privilege. What are other examples of privilege? (e.g., privilege based on gender, sexual orientation, class, and religion).

Can you think of ways one might have privilege based on these factors? (e.g., that you do not have to worry about being verbally or physically harassed because of your sexual orientation; or you can be sure that your religious holiday will be acknowledged and represented in store displays, classroom discussions, etc.). Please list these forms of privilege.
__________________________________________

McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from."

:thumbsup:

I suggested that you find that mythical insightful man because I thought the point of the list was to gain insight into how “these invisible systems” affect a group that the reader may not be part of.... that seems the intention of the White Privilege Checklist. In that case, it’s true, it was presented to “you” to “Please read the list and place a check next to the privileges that apply to you or that you have encountered.” It seems the point was to reflect on the ones that are relevant to “you”-- not to refute the ones that aren’t.

For this reason, it’s clear this was designed as a teaching tool promoting understanding, not divisiveness.

“My point is that the point--the invisible pervasiveness of male societal dominance--is poorly served by a dubiously accurate checklist of the benefits of being male. Such a list can ONLY (your emphasis) inspire a sort of fact-checking, especially when one or more entries on that list are only anecdotally true if at all.”

This “dubiously accurate checklist” ... "can ONLY inspire a sort of fact-checking..." Maybe so. Checking for the affirmative, rather than the negative?

“Why is it objectionable that a representative of a group should respond to a commentary upon that group?

Was it "a commentary upon that group" or was it an illustration of social realities, an invitation to enter and consider the experience of those-other-than-the-socially-dominant-group, an opportunity to gain and share some understanding.

Very nice talking to you. :hi:

[Orrex]

42. The limitations of the medium

SHOUTING “insight”-- now THAT’S funny! I reserve the right to use caps for EMPHASIS without being accused of “bristling” “complete with shouty-CAPITALS and a generally right-back-atcha tone.”

So stipulated. Prior to this disclaimer, however, your capitalization came across as "shouting," so I reserve the right to claim justification based on that reasonable perception.

One wonders if you perceive “a generally right-back-atcha tone” in non-women’s rights areas of the discussion board; and whether you bristle at it in quite the same way.

Holy moley, yes! Check out the Religion/Theology or Health forum, and you'll see I'm quite consistent here and there. Admittedly, in those other groups the "bristling" is assessed more on the basis of content and phrasing, but shouty-capitals (as perceived) do carry significant weight of their own in net-parlance.

This “dubiously accurate checklist” ... "can ONLY inspire a sort of fact-checking..." Maybe so. Checking for the affirmative, rather than the negative?

To that end, I can only say once more that, by embracing the majority of the original list, and by my subsequent comments re: the historical fact of male societal dominance, it would seem clear that I recognize the "privileges" afforded to me by my sex. Have I been unclear in this regard? I shouldn't think that the rejection of part of the list would be taken as a denial of all of it. Quite the contrary; to reject part while explicitly accepting the rest, I think I'm being pretty straightforward about my view.

Was it "a commentary upon that group" or was it an illustration of social realities, an invitation to enter and consider the experience of those-other-than-the-socially-dominant-group, an opportunity to gain and share some understanding.

I think it's both, in a kind of "heat vs. humidity" way. The framing of the list suggests that the privileged beneficiaries enjoy a smug acceptance of the status quo, which is definitely a commentary, in my view.

If one can't contest part of the list, then the discussion is no longer about the quasi-invisible male societal dominance but is instead about whether enough of the list is sufficiently accurate to be useful for discussion. The author of the list, then, assumes dominance over any who would discuss it, and his views ("his," in this case, correct?) are treated as assumed truths when they're anything but.

Very nice talking to you. :hi:

Hmm... I can't tell from raw text and context--is that :sarcasm: or a sincere :hi:?

[omega minimo]

43. Orrex will you please do us the great honor

of dropping the attitude and the need to be "right" and the defensiveness and reread #41 (or all my posts) without assuming that you are being challenged, either by my comments or the original list?

I told you I gave you the benefit of the doubt before I had any real indication to do so. Why do you keep chippin away at it?

We can only look forward to the time that you might understand your right to your interpretation was never being disputed. I tried to provide another way of looking at it, ignoring for the most part your antagonism, and even researching the original "Privilege" list AND IT'S CONTEXT AS A LEARNING TOOL WITH INSTRUCTIONS PROVIDED BY THE INSTRUCTOR.

I like to think that if I had been presented with that list, I would reflect on the experience of The Other-- which seems to be the point-- rather than how the list does NOT reflect my (privileged) reality.

Unfortunately, this ended up being another example of how some folks come into the women's rights forum and clonk around reinforcing every single cliche about their group's behavior that they claim is an unfair stereotype.

Please reread the list keeping in mind the instructions for the White Privilege List ................or don't............. for yourself.

It won't be on the test :evilgrin:

[Orrex]

45. Self delete because I PM'd you instead...

[omega minimo]

46. empathy

[Finder]

39. I think your points were valid and deserve discussion. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. Hang on a second.

"That man might help you slow down and reflect on the experience of those living within that system, rather than immediately try to "take issue with" and feel some points "skewed off target and unfair"-- TO YOU! Have you thought about how this represents an entire world wide system that is "unfair" TO WOMEN?"

Are you trying to say that the OP is above criticism, or indeed that it isn't very heavily flawed indeed? Or to argue that, because parts of it are right, one shouldn't draw attention to the parts that aren't?



"That man might point our that the need to "take issue" rather than discuss the issue (with consideration of how it affects women) IS controlling behavior, reinforcing the notion that men can't discuss these things except in terms of how it is ABOUT THEM."

No, "taking issue" *is* discussing the issue; it's not "controlling behaviour". I'm not entirely sure what that phrase means, but I suspect that trying to argue that people shouldn't be taking issue with what the OP says because doing so is "controlling behaviour" is a good example of it. as to your second claim, I would suggest you look for the beam in your own eye.


"Consideration is all we ask for."

Evidently it isn't - the person you're replying to clearly has considered the OP and disagrees with it, and you're asking for more. "Aquiescence is all we ask for" might be more accurate.

[Cell 17B]

53. Will

> Try to find a man who gains insight from the list without refuting it

No one can give up power willingly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Answer to #43

43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."
Do guys really do that to women? Damn, that's pretty lame!

Yes, they do. They also feel free to make crude remarks, whether the woman is old or young, pretty or unattractive, fat or thin, and they start doing so as soon as puberty sets in--but only if they're in groups.

[Stargazer09]

60. Yep

I've experienced that many times. It's either crude remarks, "smile," or some other asinine remark.

Or they just talk to my chest, as if my breasts are much more important than anything I could say. :grr:

[Cell 17B]

52. denial

> I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Or even denying it as men's movement does...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. A few thoughts:

I think putting points 1 and 2 not merely in the same list but next to one another is foolish - the fact that you're including 1 clearly disproves 2.

8 is simply untrue. It's not even true that men need to be less careful - here in the UK, at least, men are more often victims of that sort of crime than women, I believe, although it's on average much less serious when it does happen because it's more often motivated by money or simply bad attitude than sex.

Crucially, 11 isn't usually true - most of the attention a man who chooses to be a primary parent while his partner works to support him will usually be negative, I suspect. To use the terminology of the OP, "his masculinity will be called into question", to a far greater extent than the same mutatis mutandis is true of a mother who pursues a full-time career.

18 is one I am somewhat sceptical about, at least here in the UK although I don't dismiss it out of hand as false.

21 is probably truer of women than men, I suspect, at least among the young, ALHITUK.

22 is absolutely false, especially if you're young and male, ALHITUK.

23 is true of women as well as of men.

24 is true only in certain social circles, and also true of women in some circles.

25 is no truer of men than women, so far as I know, although I'm far from an expert on clothing for either gender.

26 is true of any woman who chooses it to be, including (I think, although I don't know for sure) most of my female friends.

30 is arrant nonsense, I think. The police treat rape very seriously indeed, in general, ALHITUK.

37-39 are purely matters of personal choice; no-one of either gender is under any pressure to accept those arrangements. 37 is certainly not true of any of the couples I know; 38 and 39 are true only in those cases where the woman wanted it that way.

41 isn't true of most women, either, except by a few people, ALHITUK.

43 refers to something like nothing I've ever seen happen in my life, either to a man or a woman. This doesn't prove it doesn't happen in some places, but it's certainly not universal.

I think the ones to really keep in mind as root causes of gender inequality are 12, 17, 36, and particularly the fact that 11 isn't true, which actually impacts women in some ways more negatively than men.

1-6 set my hackles on end slightly - there are certainly some environments where they're not true of women, and some where they are; the prevalence of the latter is debateable, but I suspect often overestimated, ALHITUK.


I don't know for sure how much of what I've marked as ALHITUK is true in the US, but given how similar the cultures are in most ways, and the fact that most of the women I know who've moved one way or the other haven't remarked that one is noticeable more sexist than the other, I suspect pretty much all of them are.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. As I said in post #55, #43 has happened to me several times

Men may not be aware of it, because neither that kind of presumptuous remark nor obscene catcalls will occur if the woman has a male escort.

The implication is that I have an obligation to be all bright and cheerful in public, since I'm part of the scenery. (This is akin to the comments one hears on travel boards, in which male airline passengers complain if the flight attendants aren't young and gorgeous.)

[noamnety]

57. #43 has happened to me several times as well.

God forbid I should be contemplating something serious, as a woman, while walking down the street.

[lukasahero]

61. Making a point about #43, happens to me all the time

WTF is up with that? The day I learned Alarcojon had died, I was walking outside pretty much in tears but 2 older men - 2! in the span of about 5 minutes - told me to "Smile, it can't be that bad." Well, FU asshole, just because I'm a woman doesn't give you the right to expect me to smile just to pretty up your f*cking scenery. Geez.

[noamnety]

72. I got that "smile" order last week

thought of this thread.

Confronted the guy, asked him if he'd ever considered how patronizing that was, and why. :)

[bettyellen]

64. 43 certainly is universal and in southern europe or wall st they grab your ass too.

why do you comment on things (this and the cost of clothing) when you admittedly know nothing? do you do that often, shoot down people who know more of a subject than you do?
has your experiences in life made it easier for you to pontificate upon things you no naught about?
totally a guy thing, i'd say. :P

[barb162]

62. Great list

Too bad lists like this still are applicable.

[LetsThink]

63. Seeking Susan Anthony........... GREAT Article !

This NY Times OpEd on mis-interpretation of Susan B. Anthony is DEFINITELY worth the read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/opinion/13schiff.html

Good background information for those interested in being knowledgeable in discussions with co-workers, colleagues and friends.....

[pecwae]

67. #6,12,31,32

were the bane of my existence for years. I have usually worked in traditionally male dominated trades; carpentry, military, plumbing, ground maintenance supervisor. I went through hell having to prove my skill and hood my temper every single f*cking day when my counterparts could screw up with no consequences. I was told to my face that my last job as grounds maintenance supervisor should have "gone to a man with a family." Never mind I was a woman with two children to support with no other assistance. Of course, when one of the good old boys who thought I was getting above my station got crushed under a 2000 pound hydraulic press one day at work who do you think they came to to clean all the tools that had little bits of brain, skull and blood covering them? Me, the only female in the entire engineeering department because the men just couldn't face doing that kind of thing.

[Triana]

71. Heh. I'm not surprised...

...that's why men weren't picked on by Ma Nature to do childbirth. If they had to do it, the species would cease to exist because they can't HANDLE it. Big old knuckle-draggin, chest-beatin beasts that they are. Puh.

I've been subjected to similar treatment all my life with computers and flying....let's just say the items on this checklist have earned their place. If some guys out there don't like it, then I have to ask WHAT are THEY doing to help CHANGE it? Women have been trying for hundreds of YEARS to get these attitudes changed. It would be nice if some guys would help instead of just beating their chests, declaring themselves Alpha Everything by virtue of a Y and a dangling appendage, and then griping about it.

[Orrex]

73. You know, I think I've encountered another one

I work in an office while my wife works two full-time jobs at home. The usual routine when I get home is that we all dine together, and afterwards I take the two sons for a walk lasting an hour or so, then it's to bed for both of them. Incidentally, I cherish these walks, because I don't get nearly enough time with the boys.

Nearly every night, I receive some kind of effusive praise for being a "caring father" because "it's nice to see fathers spending time" with their kids. Invariably, some neighbor or other positively trips over him/herself to commend me for my involvement. It's nice, in a way, because I'm being praised for something that I really enjoy doing (and which I like to think I do fairly well), but in essence, I'm getting kudos for doing what should really be the minimum expectation. I don't think that my wife gets plaudits (other than from me) when she takes the boys for a walk during the day, or watches them, or plays with them, or prepares meals for them.

So here's the Privilege part: I can expect to be praised for a level of involvement with my children that would barely be the minimum expected of their mother.


Thoughts?

[lukasahero]

74. My thoughts? THANK YOU!!!

Thank you for acknowledging that there is such a thing as male priveledge and being aware enough to identify it when it happens to you.

Of course, my post in and of itself (i.e. - praising you for recognizing your own priveledge) probably also fits the list but thank you anyway. :)

[Boojatta]

76. Is it a privilege to receive praise under such circumstances?

Should the list be expanded to include the black male "privilege" of receiving praise for being "articulate"?

[Katherine Brengle]

77. It's a privilege to live your life receiving constant praise for doing very little.

As a woman, and a mother, I can honestly say I have never EVER received praise for the things my husband receives it for - I don't even get it when I truly go above and beyond. He gets it for really ridiculous things, like changing a diaper (in the past).

Mothers, in most cases, get the opposite - "Wow, you left the baby at home with your husband? Was he okay with that?"

[WildClarySage]

78. Or my favorite... babysitting...

Like when my sister said, when asked where her husband was, "He stayed home to babysit the kids." Awww, whatta peach of a guy! except

it ain't babysitting when it's HIS kids!!!

[Katherine Brengle]

79. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world - and my husband's.

[seabeyond]

97. i guess over decade ago i said something to mil about this. last week she went into a rant

about me saying way back then, men dont babysit their kids any more than mothers do.

i told her last week as she proclaimed she just wouldnt be pc, it isnt about women or feminism. when i speak out about saying men "babysit" kids i am standing up for men.

what mother would be told she is a mere babysitter

i have two brothers raising their kids. they hardly think they are babysitting

this term for fathers is offensive for the father

[lukasahero]

98. Why does it have to be about men to hold sway?

Why isn't just being about women or feminism good enough?

[seabeyond]

99. because all battles arent about women. it could be argued in that manner

but i think it is more powerful and certainly in truth arguing for the man and his right. the empowering man in his role. and i think that in the long run is more empowering for women.

one of the reasons i told mother in law that it was so important is because we have so retarded the male role that it has really messed them up and it doesnt benefit us, even with it lessening male role, which isnt healthy and i never endorse.

it is like the man praised for being a good father. he recognizes that he is getting praise for something that should be a given. it is like when i am praised as a "good" mother, i tell whomever, not praise worthy, my job.

i think this is important to project this

also i have two sons. i want them to be as empowered in these areas that are typically womans. i think this will level the field in women being empowered where it is typically men.

i think it is the healthy way

[seabeyond]

100. also, it should be enough. but they are repug, fox news watchin

texans who will close their ears to anything that they think may go against core belief. and they are old. and she is my mother in law and doesnt like me that much.

[Orrex]

88. Seems fitting

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28613

[defendandprotect]

80. What about the male propaganda machines . . . . ???

Organized patriarchal religions and "the book" --

What about sports? Anyone see anything of Woods win today?

Music plays behind every move males make -- !!!!

NY Times -- no women on front page unless you are a victim or an idiot --

[Swamp Rat]

81. kick

[lightningandsnow]

82. Thank you!

[knitter4democracy]

83. As a corollary of #18:

"If I speak up in a class, my opinion is less likely to be challenged and more likely to be approved of by the teacher."

I was in a grad-level class this fall that reinforced that one. The class was two-thirds male in population with a male prof. When I'd try to bring up a feminist reading of the literature, several guys would pile on at once with the prof joining in. When these same men would give a reading that was a blatant stereotypical masculine reading of the text, I'd call them on it only to get attacked again. Masculine privilege was the order of the day, and it rankled.

[Jim__]

85. Is that really a corollary?

Have you ever been in a grad class where the situation was reversed - a female professor and predominantly female students? You might have the reverse situation where a disagreeing male gets piled on. A good professor should prevent that, and it sounds like your professor was not doing a good job. My understanding of literature is that it is pretty open to interpretation and just about any coherent interpretation is valid.

The other side of that is that any minority opinion is hard to argue in the presence of enthusiastic opposition. Everyone who disagrees with you wants to give their opinion, and that will always look like piling on.

[knitter4democracy]

86. I have, and I've never seen attacks like what I had happen to me.

In English, women usually dominate in numbers. I've never had a prof that allowed sexist comments or nastiness of any kind against the male students, not even in a women's lit class. We were to be respectful at all times.

There's disagreeing, and then there's piling on. Piling on is most of the male students yelling (I don't mean laughing, I don't mean talking loudly, I mean yelling) at me and the prof joining in, not giving me a chance to explain, not asking me what I meant by it, just drowning me out entirely. When I tried, I was told to be quiet.

I've also been screamed at by a guy across the room because I felt the bombing of Hiroshima to be morally wrong. His face went red, and he started screaming that I was a Commie and needed to leave the country. So, yeah, I've been screamed at for my stance in a class.

[km7368]

84. Times will not change

Getting a woman into the White House will not change this idea of male privelige, unfortunately.

[omega minimo]

89. I have the privilege of not having to ask to be called "Senator" in a committee hearing I Chair

If I did have to ask for that use of correct title, I would not be criticized and attacked for doing so.

[badacid]

90. Don't really have an issue with any of them

Sounds like it's a great thing to be a man. Especially a white man.

No problems whatsoever! All of us are CEOs of multi billion dollar companies who don't have a care in the world!

*Excuse me while I use my slaves to prepare my table, while my pregnant, barefooted wife prepares dinner before her nightly unwanted sex. Of course I would tell my sons that this is the proper way to live life, while telling my daughters (Whom I love less.. of course) that their entire being in life is to be subservient to men.


Seriously though, I would have no problem listening to every single one of those items listed and determine how many actually apply to me, if it weren't presented as a single opinion that shouldn't be disputed (Kinda like religion).

If I step back and look at it as "Does this apply to you? vs "this applies to you... period." - I seem to be more willing to look inward and determine if I agree or not.

Couple I disagree with on a personal level -
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

I do not give feedback to female coworkers without a witness present - for the fear of being falsely accused. I do not refer to them as girls, ladies or women. They are females. I refuse to jeopardize my career for a possible missunderstanding.

I work in healthcare and have female bosses as well as male and females who report to me. I constantly question whether or not anything negatively done can be ascribed as gender bias. When mostly it's them talking about "pickles" (their word - not mine) and men who they find attractive in movies. I refuse to participate based on the previous paragraph.

BUT - I am also well aware that healthcare is the exception to the rule. Having worked at a lumber yard, who had a ratio of 5 women to 30 men it was the exact opposite. And I believe #19 has some truth to it for a majority of occupations.


20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
YEAH!!! I get to see rapists, murderers and Adulterers who make people think all men are like that to some extent - as easily viewable on DU.


23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
I am guilty of this one (We're to be honest right?? No one here is going to harass/insult someone who is being honest... right....) If a man (Myself included) is speaking in public, I am more inclined to disregard appearance as long as they are dressed and speak well. Women (I'm not at work) are always having to make people think they are pretty before they speak lest they be ignored/ridiculed etc.

Since I recognize this, I do my best to listen to the content of the message before deciding whether or not I agree. But it is hard to do from the inside to determine whether I am adhering to it or not.


26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.
This goes kind of hand in hand with #23 - And it is true for the most part. I have male friends who take an hour to get ready, But I believe their exceptions. I take 15-20min whereas my wife takes 45min to an hour.


29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
LOL!! I get called a jackass, jerk, dick, asshole etc etc. OR I get aggressive and get stabbed/shot...

#29 is just stupid.


30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)
I have never heard of "Acquaintance rape" - Is that like coerced? As far as I know - Rape is Rape. There are varying levels (i.e. 18yo having consentual sex with a 16yo - parents disapprove and press charges).

I don't really understand this one - Assault is assault, whether against a woman or a man. If done by one's spouse it's domestic violence. I would have to see some examples to change my opinion on this one. Crime is crime.



8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.
My only problem with this one is that they qualify it with "Average". When I was 16 I was walking with a group of friends and just talking to them. We passed 3 men talking, and one spit on me. I was too scared at the time to do / say anything for fear of being beaten/killed.

When I was 13 I road a bus with some girls I really liked. An older kid (about 17) decided they were cute too and the way to impress them was to publicly humiliate me. Calling me a pussy and telling me I was a scared little wimp and why didn't I stick up for myself. I remember getting off the bus and calling my parents to pick me up - all the while crying. It still enrages me to the point where even as I type this I start to tear up.

There are ALWAYS threats no matter where you go - and my daughter will know how to critically wound anyone who threatens her.


31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Does noone ever say "She, Her, Women, Female, refer to the earth as a woman???"
This one is kind of reaching



36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
This one is true - which is one of the reasons I don't believe in religion. Once they start controlling how you speak, they start controlling how you think.



39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
Doesn't this say "we'll both assume" - How does that pertain to just men?



40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.

I laughed when I read this - "pornography" "is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually"

Really??? Are you sure??? Because when I pick up porn I am totally looking for fully clothed people holding hands.... Generally speaking when I am looking at porn, I am looking for totally naked women.

As to the other things - Yes it's true and it is a cause for concern for young women. My 9yo niece recently said she needed to go on a diet. She doesn't, but she sees all of these women and wonders why she doesn't look like them. The parents really need to get involved - it's a war and it's a hard fought war against the media and images surrounding the child constantly. But if you are going to live in a place that has access to cable/internet - you have to understand that.

I know what I think is beautiful - Just as my wife knows what she thinks is handsome. My jessica alba is her Brendan Fraiser.



41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.
This goes with #40. It has taken years of working hand in hand with my wife to overcome eating disorders learned from her teenage years.



43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."
That is freaking insane. I would never do that - but as some have posted it has happened to them. That's crazy.



45. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
Does this mean I only have 44 points to deal with? Since I am now aware?

[TellTheTruth82]

91. I just gotta say

The response to number 36 reveals a lack of knowledge about religion. Most major regligions (with the exception of Islam) do not preach male head of household. I defy you to go into a church today and hear that message being preached. I'm sure you can find a few extremists (generally outcast from their relgiion) preaching that, but you will also find extremists in the other direction - as in any point of disagreement about anything. I'm not exactly what one would call religious, but since religion normally teaches people to go out there and be good, I have a hard time saying it's bad - the only mind control tends to come from those who oppose it!

[Scout]

92. well this religion sure preaches male head of household crap

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5909325&mesg_id=5909325

and they can take it, fold it five ways, and shove it up their tight collective asses

[noamnety]

93. From the Lutheran Evangelical Church:

"equal status does not mean identical callings in life. Ever since God created Adam and then followed by creating Eve as a helper suitable for him, God has set a beautiful harmony between men and women in the unique callings of loving head (the man) and loving helper (the woman). "

https://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=30&cuItem_itemID=12929

[TellTheTruth82]

96. but

do they actually preach that actively...don't believe so... like those laws in Rhode Island that say you can sell toothpaste and a toothbrush to the same customer on Sunday....

[noamnety]

94. From the baptist church:

"A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead
his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ."

http://www.baptiststart.com/church_PDFs/bylaws.pdf (see page 8)

[raccoon]

105. You, or anyone else, saying "that's insane" doesn't alter one bit the fact that lots of men still

do that. I experienced it when I was a young woman.

"43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."
That is freaking insane. I would never do that - but as some have posted it has happened to them. That's crazy."

Another thing I had total strangers say to me when I was younger: "Take off your glasses." :wtf:

[Azalea]

101. Awesome list!

few exceptions though 22. Male insurance rates are higher than that of females at least until age 25.

I impatiently await the day when working moms are no longer frowned upon by other people-male or female for their decision and their sacrifice to continue working in a country where most paid maternity leave ends after 6 weeks.

[IDFbunny]

102. #46 Can make babies at any stage in life. NT

We should legislate to push woman's fertility from ~15-35 back 15 years to 30-50 yo.

[Azalea]

103. Instead

of pushing it back why not just extend it? Some women want to have children young. Biology not men allow for men to have infinite fertility but science has allowed for some women to be pregnant well into old age. One day it will be the norm but I certainly wouldnt want fertility to be taken away until you're 30.

[lukasahero]

104. I think the post was in reference to the horrific statements being made about

the woman who died at 69 after having twins at 65.

That said, can you explain what you mean by "certainly wouldnt want fertility to be taken away until you're 30." because it kind of sounds like you think fertility should be restricted for women at some point. I truly hope I've just misunderstood you.

Welcome to DU?

[musette_sf]

106. it's a man, baby

and it's gone :-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=6786&mesg_id=7378

[lukasahero]

107. I've really gotta let go of my manners sometimes

and just call an f'in troll an f'in troll when I see it! :rofl:

ETA: just read that other thread and eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

[Brigid]

108. #43

I have actually had this happen too. More than once.

[Boojatta]

109. Does number 31 belong in the list?

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

There's a risk that people won't recognize that what is done is more important than what is said. Including it in the list can distract people from more important issues.

[Scout]

110. it's worse to exclude one gender

we can multi-task you know.

"distract people from more important issues" uh huh.

:eyes:

[musette_sf]

111. i see you're responding to "Ignored"

musta been a doozy :crazy:

[Scout]

112. they were wondering about #31 being appropriate...

"There's a risk that people won't recognize that what is done is more important than what is said. Including it in the list can distract people from more important issues."

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ukonkivi]

115. I'm just going to apply to a few of these that feel especially noticable to me

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.
This is certain something I have experience. When a guy fails, people seem to blame him.
When a woman fails, they often blame the fact she's a woman. It grosses me out quite a bit.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.
I am certainly thankful for the fact it is true I'm less likely to be raped.
On the downside, it's kind of disappointing that not only am I less likely to get raped, but for someone to be sexually or romantically assertive with me.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.
Well, I was a little bit. But less so than a woman and I always found it a bit strange and alienating.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
That I'm not so sure about. Social Darwinists do more than just mock men who don't get laid, they also tend to do it in name of "natural selection". There's more emphasis on the sex part, but the two are related.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Now THAT is sad. People don't expect men to be parents. From a male perspective, I don't quite consider myself a masculist, far more of a feminist. But I honestly feel quite upset about how much the idea of me being a dad, much less a stay at home dad, would not be appreciated. I've read and heard several things scorning men without jobs, not respecting fathers and fathering as important or able as mothering, and not scorning the househusband in general. I don't appreciate society telling me to stay away from the kitchen, stay away from the children, and work!

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.
Now this I strongly disagree with. People appreciate appreciate male parents as much as they appreciate female full time workers.
They don't.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.
Unfortunately not, because they're expecting me to work.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
This might actually be true. People are okay with a man getting other people to take care of children. Women are still expected to be involved parents.

I'm going to cut some of this down because it's becoming a wall of text.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.
Maybe I was, though I wouldn't know. And I'm pretty sure my sister was pretty encouraged.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.
Non-stereotyped? Absolutely not. The media often, very often tends to idolize a male figure of hypermasculinity.
We are brainwashed into gender roles from a very young age. I wouldn't call these muscular, violent beasts positive at all.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.
OH GOD THIS ONE AFFECTS ME SO MUCH.
I hate, as a man, being expected socially to have as much sex as possible. And treat sex with a woman like a trophy.
While women are treated as if every sex act they partake in is a loss for them. You wouldn't believe how this grinds my gears.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.
And if I care "too much" about it, society will mock me. I am expected to care little, spend little time, and spend little money on clothing.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don't change my name.
I wish I could have my wife's name after marriage. I wish it was common. I wish it was easy.
I wish my parents would respect me for doing such a thing and didn't expect me to carry on their name.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.
And that is why I am a Pagan. Well, one of the many reasons.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.
I agree. And I promote against this.

43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to "smile."
They do if you're an emo. In fact, this has happened to me and I don't wear such fashion.
Honestly it seems the refers can be true sometimes. Me often get called "pussies" for being depressed or sad looking.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

116. #18 #20 #21 #24 #25 #26 #29 #37 #45 ...

I disagree with these particular items.

[retread]

117. There was a time in my life I thought most of this stuff was self-evident. The first

time I saw white privilege brought up in GD was an eye opener.

Why would someone who professes to be open-minded and thoughtful refuse to accept the existence of white privilege and male privilege?

[mzteris]

118. because to acknowledge it exists

acknowledges the fact that just MAYBE they're not at "good as they think they are".

or that they might should start voluntarily giving up those "privileges" and stop taking advantage of them.

Either way, it's oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh so much more convenient to deny they exist. Keep the cushy position in society just because you're a white heterosexual male.

Studies show the hierarchy goes something like

white men will "stand" with black men in issues of sex-based primacy, and
will "stand" with white women in issues of race-based primacy.
Thus pitting white women and black men against each other.
Black females are never accorded a position of "privilege".

[Glassunion]

124. Black females are never accorded a position of "privilege".

You've never been to my house.

I do however think we are just an anecdote to the general rule.

The beauty of it is that we don't know what our roles are supposed to be. I like it that way.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.