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Does anyone have good info on "honor killings"?

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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:41 AM
Original message
Does anyone have good info on "honor killings"?
I heard this really horrifying story on NPR tonight.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5043032

Does anyone know how common this is and/or about organizations working to stop this horror?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not on honor killings, but
on the topic of women in general within Islam.

I go to a website to learn about Islam. It's a place where you can ask a question of Muslim religious scholars and get Islamic answers.

Many of the questions are from people iving in the west and struggling to follow Muslim rules within western society.

Here's a link to a bunch of questions people have asked about women's issues in Islam. To me it's interesting anyway.

http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/cat.pl?c=Women
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks! The "honor killer" on NPR said he knew it was against Islam,
but that tribal and family "honor" are more important than Islam.

:grr:
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I put "honor killings"
in the search box on the site but nothing came up.

In questions about beating wives and rape, the site is completely against those things and demands repentence from the man who does those things, so I'm pretty sure that would be the same answer to honor killings.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. At least that's good. I don't think "honor killings" are actually part
of Islam. The ideas about women that lead to it do seem to have been absorbed by Islam. I want to be tolerant of other people's faiths, but I also don't want to give these folks a pass when I'm ranting about our own fundamentalists, who are are absolutely nothing compared to this guy.
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ianna_kur Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. re: Islam and women's rights
Actually honor killings, female genital mutilation, domestic violence, rape etc.. are all condemned by reputable scholars in Islam. Those disgusting occurrences are tribal/cultural in origin, and are not found in the actual religion. You may want to go to the DU Muslim Group and ask questions of actual Muslims before you condemn an entire faith :-) Many of the online websites are a bit dodgy, and there are many different schools and traditions within the umbrella of Islam. Some are more influenced by questionable cultural traditions etc.. than others. Being as there is no central church in Islam, it is best to ask actual Muslims about Islam.


Salaam
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Wow! That guy is seriously conservative, even for a Moslem. Makes
Falwell and Robertson look like "radical" feminists!

Seriously, the ignorance of the questioners is disheartening. The "Imam's" answers are even worse. What a depressing religion.
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. I heard that too
It shook me rigid.

When he said that "he could see in her eyes that she thought they would be glad to see her and would hug her and welcome her back and then realized he was about to kill her" I shivered, she was 16 for fuck's sake!! He was her cousin and a policeman and this was in Najaf, Iraq - the country where we are making 'great progress'..

Have you tried spelling honor the english way, with a 'u' (honour)? Many in the middle east are taught english not american spelling.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. And the girl had been kidnapped.... Damn him! Damn anyone who
permits this atrocity!
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Crayson Donating Member (463 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. Happened in Germany several times recently

Germany has a large population of Turkish immigrants.
The so-called "Secondos", second generation immigrants are sometimes quite well integrated, meaning the girls don't wear the headscarf anymore and meet with boyfriends (German boyfriends!) and so on...

In the last few years some high profile cases of fathers and brothers killing their girls or sisters to protect the family honor have provoked an outcry and put the cultural problems in focus.

Germany has large Turkish communities where with many Turks who don't know a single word of German and don't need it either because the community is a city within a city.



Other types of honor killings are knows from southeastern Europe (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, etc) or from India where it is known that girls who rejected boyfriends/marriages get attacked by acid in their face.


There are really some parts in this world where I wouldn't want to be a woman.
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ianna_kur Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. I forgot to mention
..honour killings are also present in Hindu societies as well as other religions. It is more of a cultural phenomenon than a religious one. You may find more information if you do a search by different countries than by faith. Also, if you go to the UN site and look up the Women's status reports you may be able to find more information.


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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. Egypt just had one
Edited on Sat Dec-17-05 10:22 AM by onager
(For those who don't know me, I'm on a long-term work assignment in Alexandria, Egypt.) :hi:

It was reported in one of the local English-language papers. I wish I could find it, but the very efficient housekeepers here in the hotel threw out my stack of newspapers. Dammit...

As I remember the facts, a 17-yr-old girl from a farm village ran off with her boyfriend. Her father and brother tracked her down and brought her back home. In the middle of the village's main street, with many eyewitnesses, the brother shot her in the head.

He is in jail now, but probably not for long. The Egyptian legal code is based on two sources: the French Napoleonic Code and Islamic sharia law. If you've done a little googling, you probably know that the laws in most Arab nations contain some large loopholes for honor killers. Even worse, they are usually treated as heroes by their families and neighbors when they get out of jail.

BTW, you'll probably learn just as much from web sites as you will by asking questions in the DU Islamic forum. I poke around in there some in Lurk Mode (being a Grumpy Atheist and all).

They're nice folks, but most of the Muslims in there are liberal (otherwise they wouldn't be here). And many seem to be fairly recent converts to the religion who live in the US...not in some place where they can actually enjoy the benefits of living under sharia law. :sarcasm:

I have to say that Egypt is much better than Saudi Arabia, where I lived for 2 years. In S.A. the matowa (Religious Police) were omnipresent. You could never tell what might set the buggers off and get you in trouble. One of them screeched at us because (American) women were laughing in public. He said women laughing was "unseemly."

Today I went on a long walk around downtown Alexandria, and as usual, several gangs of young girls/women came up, chatted easily with me, and even asked me to take their picture. That sort of thing NEVER happened in Saudi Arabia.

For the curious, many of these gals were definitely Muslim. They were wearing the hijab (head-covering). Others were Religiously Undefinable, with streaked hair and Western clothing. But even most of the Muslim girls here wear Western clothes, combining the modest head-covering with skin-tight jeans and form-fitting tops. Go figure.

Some other recent info, since this seems to be the forum for it: the Muslim Brotherhood is claiming that it has "convinced" 70% of Egyptian women to adopt the full face covering. From my own daily experience, I can say this is BS Of The Purest Ray Serene.

My job site is out in the Nile Delta and I pass thru a bunch of rural farm villages every day. Even most of the women out there, in presumably a very conservative area, do not wear the face covering. The majority wear the hijab, often in bright colors with beautiful embroidery and other decorations. (I didn't see much of that in Saudi, either.)

The Brotherhood also claims it convinces women to cover their faces with "persuasion, not coercion." And if you believe that...since this is the Joyous Holiday Season and all...then let me sell you this slightly used virgin who was impregnated by a god...

As you might guess, Egyptian women of the liberal, educated and working persuasions are horrified by the Brotherhood's recent wins in the Parliamentary elections. The local paper actually printed some of their reactions. Not editorializing much (sarcasm!), the paper described one outspoken women's-rights lawyer as a "radical leftist." (The slur works just as well over here as it does on Fox News.) Another woman said she was actually glad the Brotherhood had won some seats, because "now people will see what liars they are." (Doubtful.)

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unschooler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Very interesting. Thanks. Egypt seems to be quite a mix of
old/misogynistic/religious and new/egalitarian/enlightened ideas and lifestyles. Are women permitted to vote in Egypt?
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Yes they are...
...if they don't mind the same risks as every other voting Egyptian. Google on some news stories about the recent parliamentary elections, which have been going on for the past 2 months (and just ended).

For the number of people killed/beaten/jailed reported in the Western press, you should probably triple it.

There are even a few female members of Parliament. Unfortunately, their numbers just decreased. Parliamentary elections REALLY attract crooked businessmen in Egypt, who naturally have the money to buy lots of votes. Bribes to voters can range from 100 Egyptian pounds (about $17), up to a child's annual tuition at one of the better private schools.

Most businessmen want to get elected because members of Parliament enjoy a very broad legal immunity while they are in office.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Honor killings to be probed in Turkey
A delegation of Turkish MPs is visiting the south-east of the country as part of parliament's first research into "honour killings".

There are no reliable statistics but it is thought at least 60 women are killed in honour killings in Turkey each year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4546992.stm
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unschooler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I wonder whether the Turkish legal system truly punishes these
murders. I can't imagine a country where such things are not taken seriously by the authorities being part of the EU.
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