My f*ed up family speaks out --

[Katherine Brengle]

(Double posting in GD)

Okay, a little background--I am the "good" grandchild in my family--the one who went to college first, and got married to a good man, and has an amazing beautiful child and a rewarding (if not lucrative) career. My family (mother's side) is pretty messed up, but made up of generally alright types.

However, one of my aunts has a habit of sending out these mass emails, usually jokes (as I told her to stop sending me her right-wing propaganda months ago), but today it was an email about how to avoid rape, including such sage advice as:

Avoid grocery store parking lots at night

Rapists tend to go after victims who have long hair--short haired women are victimized less often

Rapists look for victims whose clothing it will be easy to remove

and other gems...

So I "reply-all"ed, and said that there is another option, other than living in fear, which is refusing to support our cultural standard of accepting violence against women. I suggested reading a little Inga Muscio for empowerment and I linked to an article I wrote a few weeks ago about the prevalence of rape in our culture.

I got back the following two messages so far:

one of the points of awareness is so that you may not live in fear everyday.
I certainly don't.
Was a smart move that my Mom made when she sent us to self-defense class.
Not to kick ass - but for awareness - how to carry yourself with confidence. There's no such thing as being too cautious.
It's a fact that the world is a different place for females than for males. Yes it's ridiculous - but it's also reality.
This country is YEARS ahead of third world countries. Count your blessings that we are not living in the Victorian age and that thousands - millions of woman (AND men) have been working toward the end goal of equality. To not "support" what has become of our American culture is a step backwards and could be considered anti-American.
So - - - no thanks, I don't need to read Inga Muscio.

and

Ya know, you're right. Tomorrow, I'm wearing my hot pants and halter top to all the places I need to go. I may even go to a few i shouldn't just because i SHOULD be able to....No need in making an extra effort in being safe. It should just be expected. WORSHIP ME WORLD and don't hurt me for I am just a simple woman. After all we are all the same creature...aren't we?



WAKE UP!

Why do women insist on hating themselves and each other?

[GrumpyGreg]

1. I'm a woman. I have 2 daughters and 3 grandaughters and no

matter how much we should be able to do everything a man can do,the truth is that we can't.

I wish it were different,but it isn't.

[monarch]

3. DU postings certainly reflect a person's world view.

My take on the OP was that it certainly should be a woman's right to grocery shop at night or wear her hair long. How did hot pants get into this?

[Katherine Brengle]

13. Right?

[Katherine Brengle]

12. We need to fight it in order to change it --

accepting the status quo simply because it is the status quo is counter productive.

[MuseRider]

2. Cause many of the menfolks

won't like us if we insist on changing the cultural standard that keeps them unchallenged on the top and goodness knows they won't love us if we challenge them.

[nini]

4. I've seen that email and I wasn't upset by it

reminding women to not go out to be careful around certain places and situations isn't so bad. Sucks we have to think that way, but we do. When I was in college there were rapes in the back ends of the parking lots at night after late classes. Women were reminded to not go to their cars by themselves and to call security if they didn't have a buddy to go with them. Taking this advice didn't accetp violence against female students there, It made sense to remind us to be aware.

Unfortunately we live in a world where humans harm each other. Being aware and trying to avoid such things does not mean we think it's ok, it means we value ourselves enough to try to avoid it.

[yardwork]

6. But, read the email again. It's not suggesting sensible precautions.

That email is saying that if you wear long hair and get raped, it was partly your fault. Ditto if you wear "easily removed clothing." (???)

In the winter, I go to work and come home in the dark - I have no other option than to grocery shop at night. Sure, I take sensible precautions. Shearing my hair and barricading myself inside from dusk to dawn aren't sensible, imo.

[nini]

9. I read it again.. The hair thing did seem a bit much to me the first time

but I don't see where it lays blame on the victim. The hair thing is that a rapist can pull her hair to grab you. It's easier but doesn't mean we all have to shave our heads.

If it said.. if you wear low cut tops - you are asking for it - then I'd agree. I took it as if you have to be alone somewhere in a situation where you could be at risk, just think about your surorundings and your ability to protect yourself. I grew up in an area that decayed as I grew up and it became necessary to adapt to the reality of crime. It is part of my street smarts to be aware of all these things. My background and life experiences had me look at this differently than others I guess.


I compare this to the fear and warnings of the rapist at my college. Be aware of your surroundings and be ready to defend yourself if need be is not bad advice.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. I see the point that you are trying to make, but I'm not sure that

the sender of the e-mail was suggesting that every woman cut their hair short or wear clothing that amounts to body armour. But, if you know how these predator select their victims, you have a better chance of protecting yourself from an attack.

Maybe we're just looking at this from different frames of mind.

[Katherine Brengle]

14. Exactly --

I am not going to go out my way to put myself into a potentially dangerous situation--but I will be damned if I am going to hide in my house at night when I need diapers or tampons or whatever from the grocery store.

I'll be damned if I am going to only wear clothes that cover every ench of my body and are difficult to remove so some rapist doesn't consider me an easy target.

And I think if all of us thought about this, we could start really enjoying some sisterhood and protect each other from the dangers of the world, without running scared.

[yardwork]

5. Just ignore the morans

Fearing to wear long hair and "easily removed" clothing (whatever the eff that is) is generally just the beginning - it's a waste of time to argue with them, just keep working to change things.

and I'd steer clear of anyone who wrote this to me: "To not "support" what has become of our American culture is a step backwards and could be considered anti-American."

[Katherine Brengle]

15. Yeah, I am just deleting any responses now --

my mom was on the list too, and she emailed and told me to just ignore them, lol.

[TalkingDog]

7. Inviting flames here, but about 10 years ago a book calling for a Man Tax

was on the market.

The(female)author suggested that since men were responsible for a high percentage of crimes (from petty to felonious), something like 75 to 80%, that men should pay a higher tax to offset the staggering costs of dealing with them and the aftermath.

When I jokingly suggested to male friend of mine that we would have a lot less crime if men had to be escorted everywhere they went and be subject to a curfew after dark, he became thoroughly offended, to the point of being incensed at the idea.

I then pointed out that women who want to be safe are told to go everywhere with another person. And for gods sake don't go out after dark. I stressed that we live like that ALL the time. So why should he be all offended?

He seemed taken aback, like he'd never thought of it that way before. Ah, but for more self-reflexive men.

[Katherine Brengle]

16. Do you remember the name of the book?

It sounds like something I would enjoy.

And while I would love to support the idea of a Man Tax (or at the very least, the curfew thing--I think it would enlighten a lot of men but would be hard to organize), this would open the door to education taxes that only effect parents of school aged children and highway management taxes for people who own cars AND use the highway, etc...

But it does sound very interesting.

[TalkingDog]

19. Unfortunately no, I was in Grad School...around 93.

I never read it...too busy. But did read articles in the newspaper on reaction to it. As you can imagine, the more conservative press had a field day.

I did a quick google search but came up with nothing useful.

Sorry...

If you know any sociology people or professors, they might have a clue.

[NMMNG]

27. I recall hearing about the Man Tax

And it wasn't just fantasy--it was a very real proposition in Sweden:


Swedish lawmakers have proposed a new tax on those who happen to be men that would go to paying the societal costs of abuse toward women.

The idea by the Parliament's Left Party was to be debated this week, reported the London Daily Telegraph. The paper cites an Amnesty International report earlier this year that found violence against women increased almost 40 percent in the nation during the 1990s and that 20 to 40 women are battered to death in Sweden each year.

"It must be clear to all we have a gigantic social problem and cost in men's violence toward, women and we must discuss how we are going to pay for it," Gudrun Schyman, the party's former leader, told the paper.

"We have to have a discussion so that men understand that they have a collective financial responsibility."

snip




Full article at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40790

[Kipling]

20. I suppose it advocated a Black Tax as well?

Blacks commit a lot of crime! They must be doing it out of pure innate evil, and not because they are taught and expected to be violent from the moment they are born!

Look, I realize what an enormous problem gender-based violence is, but we need to STOP it, not simply punish the group. Men grow up with gun-wielding Action Men, being told how big and strong they are. It's all about conditioning and gender roles.

[TalkingDog]

21. Social Conditioning...Gender Roles....Uh-Huh....

And citing a recent study: if you give young male and female baboons a choice of toys to play with, the male will overwhelmingly choose mechanical toys like trucks, the female will overwhelmingly choose to play with the baby doll and they will just about equally choose to play with neutral toys like balls and pails.

I've never had kids. So my knowledge comes through second hand contact. I know people so liberal, so "crunchy" they would put most of the folks on this board to shame. And yet, their little boys...who have been shielded from TV violence and violent images and given dollys and told to love them (and they do) still raise the prototypical boy.

Are they sexually agressive? I don't know. I doubt it. But they are less socially sensitive and more rough and tumble than their sisters.

So it's not about social conditioning or gender roles. That, of course, plays a part. But to make it an all or nothing proposition is to doom your argument to instant failure.

And as for the snippy Black Tax remark...I just report the news, I don't necessarily endorse it.

[Arkansas Granny]

8. I've gotten e-mails like that in the past, but they didn't upset me.

The fact is, rape happens. It shouldn't, but it does. Saying that violence against women is wrong won't make it stop. To be aware of your surroundings and taking precautions to avoid danger does not necessarily equate living in fear or acceptance of a violent act against women.

I don't advocate that women only go out in daylight hours, or cut their hair short or wear clothing with a lot of buttons and zippers, but knowing what to look for and how to protect yourself in case you find yourself in a dangerous situation is just common sense.

[nini]

11. That's how I see it.. common sense in risky situations

:toast:

[Katherine Brengle]

17. This is what I am saying --

we need to make those situations NOT risky, at least not riskier than anything else.

[nini]

18. until the world is a utopia.. I'll keep my street smarts intact

Not parking your car at the far side of a parking lot at night is sound advice. Not just for rape, but for robbery, car jacking etc..

Should women wear whatever the hell they want to? absolutely.

You''re looking at this from a woman's right to handle herself any way she wants. I'm looking at this in a broader sense of having common sense in certain situations. We're reading this differently - why I don't know. But we are.

[barb162]

29. Yes, I agree. It's personal security awareness,

For example, there are areas where when you are at a stoplight and you want to give yourself plenty of distance from the car in front of you so that you are able to pull out fast if gangs approach your car to break your windows and reach in for anything they can get. It has nothing to do with being male or female as certain gangs just want your money. This happens in several big cities.

[athena]

22. I agree with you. I will not live in fear.

I'm amazed at how few women here can see the problem with this mentality. It not only gets uncomfortably close to blaming women for rape, but worse yet, it encourages a state of fear. It tells women that we should be living in constant fear of rape. I'm sorry, but I can't live like that. I can't believe how many women here are practically bragging about avoiding "dangerous situations". What is a dangerous situation? Is it dangerous to walk home at midnight because I had work to finish and the last bus leaves at 11:30? Am I supposed to miss the deadline and be accused by my male colleagues (and Larry Summers) of not being motivated and driven enough to be a scientist? Am I supposed to spend extra money (which men, by the way, don't have to spend) to take a cab and put up with harrassing comments from the driver? Been there, done that, and I don't hesitate to walk home at midnight any more. If more women were brave enough to go out at night, the streets would be much less dangerous. And you know what? They're not that dangerous to begin with. Where I live, there is less than one random rape per year. Most rapes are committed indoors, by husbands, boyfriends, ex-boyfriends, and other family members. Unlike what the majority of women seem to think, going out at 2 am -- even dressed in a halter top and with long hair -- doesn't ensure that you will be raped or killed.

The only time I get catcalls from passing cars is when I'm walking alone at night, and the purpose is clearly to intimidate me -- to remind me that as a woman, I should know my place and stay at home at night. And all the "cautious" women who avoid going out at night are contributing to this mentality.

It is not a good thing for universities to tell women to use an escort service after dark. A group of boys rape a girl, and the university responds by advising all the girls to avoid being alone on campus at night -- as opposed to, for example, providing free self-defense classes, hiring more security guards, and establishing tougher punishments for harassment and rape. What's next? Can't these people who claim the U.S. is light years ahead of third-world countries see that this is the precisely the reasoning used by Islamist dictatorships to make it illegal for women to go out alone? It's not such a big step to go from "clothing that's not easy to remove" to a burqa.

[Katherine Brengle]

23. Thank you athena, this is exactly what I am saying.

There is a huge difference between proactive and reactive behaviors.

Hiding indoors and walking in groups is reactive behavior.

Pressuring your community to enforce sexual violence laws, making a commitment to live free of fear along with the rest of the women in your community, and pushing for self-defense classes at community centers and colleges and high schools and elementary schools is proactive behavior.

[lukasahero]

24. What a wonderful post

Gets right to the heart of the matter on so many counts.

1) Most rapes are committed by people familiar with the victim - including husbands and boyfriends. How exactly does one "avoid..." those "dangerous situations"? Ah yes, the stupid bitch should just leave him, right? :eyes:

2) Re: the women who promote the "avoiding "dangerous situations"" meme - I think this is a defense mechanism. If we believe that there is a way to avoid dangerous situations, it means it can't happen to us. I hope it never does.

And finally,
3) "precisely the reasoning used by Islamist dictatorships". Dear athena, thank you, thank you so much for finally making the connection so clearly. This is exactly the mentality behind burqas - women should not "tempt" men. WTF is wrong with us for supporting this thinking here?

[HockeyMom]

25. Nostalgia trip

I actually did wear hot pants to work and was encouraged to wear whatever was the height of fashion at the time. Ok, it was back in the late 60s when I was 22 and 100 lbs. This was for a Manhattan Cosmetics and Beauty Fortune 500 Corporation.

Yes, I even wore jeans at the corporate office back then. Nothing came between me and my Calvins. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough natural resources to keep the halter tops "up", but other women at work did wear them. lol

Seems to me BURQUAS are going to be the lastest fashion trend in the god (pun) old US of A. Even in my 50s now, I will say NO THANKS, to that one.

[Djinn]

26. The best way to avoid being raped

has nothing to do with avoiding car parks or dark alleys or wearing short skirts. It’d be “have no friends or acquaintances” as the overwhelming majority of rapes and other sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.

The facts are in most western neighbourhoods it’s perfectly safe to wander around at night, I’ve done it all my life. I get bad insomnia so can often be found wandering around my neighbourhood at 3 and 4am, it’s not a rich or even middle class area either. I get told all the time by people I shouldn’t because it’s dangerous.

The fact is though, you’re very unlikely to be attacked by a stranger, the world isn’t as dangerous as people try and tell you. There’s no need to live in fear at all.

Men have more to worry about from strangers on the streets after dark than women; they are victims of “stranger” crime far more often than women.

My lack of fear has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with the statistics telling me I’ve little to worry about from strangers.

[NMMNG]

28. I walk outside alone at night by necessity. It is required by my job.

I have to do rounds every 1-2 hours of the 5 houses in my program at my weekday job. These houses are in a not-so-fabulous neighborhood with known drug dealers, sex offenders and other miscreants. My route is roughly a 1/2 mile circuit from start to finish assuming I don't have to do any back-tracking.

I have pepper-spray and keep very alert, looking around frequently to take in who is around me. Scanning also helps let others know that I'm aware of what's going on around me and therefore not an easy target. I'm not a fan of violence but if necessary will use the pepper spray and any other tactics to defend myself.

On several occasions I've been made to fear for my safety. Two of the times were completely false alarms. One time I was walking and heard fast footsteps and heavy breathing approaching from behind, only to find a guy running with his dog (the source of the heavy breathing). Another time I was walking and a man in a pickup pulled over, causing me to immediately move several steps away and put my finger on the trigger of my pepper spray. It turned out he was a kind citizen asking if I was ok, given that I was walking by myself in the middle of the night in a "not so safe" area.

One of the occasions a guy in a truck passed by me, squealed to a stop, then turned down a side road. I immediately started walking faster knowing he was up to no good. I was right, as he came back out of the side road and came towards me from the other direction. He stopped and asked if I wanted a ride. I told him I didn't, and although I meant to sound forceful I ended up sounding semi-polite (damn socialization!) and I kept walking towards the corner of the street my base house was on, holding my pepper spray firmly. He asked, "are you sure?" in a very suggestive tone and I said, "I'm sure" as I turned the corner. I didn't turn my head his way, but watched him out of the corner of my eye as he sat there for a few more seconds then took off. That was the scariest of the events.

I've been harassed a few times by groups of guys hanging out in the neighborhood as well. I walk briskly, ignore their catcalls and do what I can to look slightly menacing. So far it has worked, though inside I'm often scared. If they actually wanted to do anything to me my little can of pepper-spray and what little I know of fighting would be little match for two or three guys, particularly if they had weapons.

I'll go down fighting though.

[donsu]

30. there have been times when I had to walk in the dark and I held a

small knife out of sight in my hand.

having to do this ANGERED me to no end. and my anger was and is directed toward you men.

STOP YOUR FUCKING BROTHERS FROM RAPING US AND OUR CHILDREN

no excuses, just stop them.