Many female students put themselves in situations leading to sexual assult

[Larissa238]

This is a quote from USC's school paper in relation to the Duke Univ case where student athletes raped a woman in a club.

People at USC are protesting, a petition is being signed, but nothing has ever happened my 5 years here. Student athletes "rape" girls all the time (I have to use quotes because they get off and are never convicted). It happens about once a year or so (that makes it into the paper). That is inexcusable.

Here's the article

http://www.dailytrojan.com/media/storage/paper679/news/2006/04/06/News/Duke-Case.Rattles.sc.Athletics-1798751.shtml?norewrite200604121350&sourcedomain=www.dailytrojan.com


Besides the petition, (which is going to be published in the same paper), what else can be done? I'm not huge on womens rights, but I know this is bad. If I cant do anything about it, I can pass it onto the Feminist Majority group at my school.

[DUHandle]

1. A lot of people

but themselves in places where they could be harmed.

[JuniperLea]

2. Women should be more careful!

You know those guys have no human control over their penises! No one in their right mind can think that a man can control his penis! It's up to the women of the world to appear as frumpy as possible at all times so as not to excite those uncontrollable penises! If a gal is too cute, well, she is just begging to be raped and there isn't a penis on Earth that can resist!

:sarcasm:

[DBoon]

5. The penis has a mind of its own

sometimes it detaches from the owner's body and wrecks havoc all night long.

[JuniperLea]

16. That reminds me of two things...

One, a song (naturally - everything reminds me of a song) Detachable Penis.

The second, my Mom speaking in Latin all the time when I was a kid. One thing she said a lot was, and forgive the butchering of a nobel language... Penis erectus noncompus mentus... an erect penis has no conscience (or brain, or something like that).

[DBoon]

23. I've heard the song too

I was mocking males who try to pretend they aren't responsible for their sexual activity

I think the song does the same, too

[JuniperLea]

65. Yep... gotcha... n/t

[mopinko]

3. yeah, they have the nerve

to go to college!! oy.
do they still do take back the night marches? the purpose of that is to say that women should not have to live in fear. as long as we have to, we are not equal, or free.

[benevolent dictator]

13. Ohio State University has a TBTN march and rally.

May 18th, it's coming up soon.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[sinkingfeeling]

10. It only takes one 'No' or 'Stop' and if ignored, you have a rape.

[MadisonProgressive]

12. That's ridiculous!

I've had a few women say no or stop to me, but then finally cave in to having consensual sex. That is NOT rape.

[benevolent dictator]

18. Erm...

should that have had a ":sarcasm:" after it...? If you have to convince, coerce, or otherwise get your partner to "cave in," then it IS rape.

[MadisonProgressive]

21. Well, she didn't think so - you'll have to duke it out with her.

[ThomCat]

26. Absolutely right.

If she has sex because anyone managed to get her to "cave in" then it's at least sexual coertion. It's very possibly rape.

[MadisonProgressive]

30. Only if the woman files charges!

[ET Awful]

40. Bullshit yet again. Rape is rape whether charges are filed or not.

The vast majority of rapes go unreported.

[MadisonProgressive]

43. The women didn't charge because they didn't think it was rape

IT WAS CONSENSUAL!

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[MadisonProgressive]

59. They were not raped. And yes I know jack shit - he is a friend of mine

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[MadisonProgressive]

75. Again - you're putting word in my mouth - APOLOGIZE!

[ET Awful]

78. So tell me . . . who said

"The women didn't charge because they didn't think it was rape"? It sure as hell wasn't me.

And who was it that said "Only if the woman files charges!" in response to a post about what constituted rape?

Sure as hellw asn't anyone else around here.

[MadisonProgressive]

83. You're taking me out of context again!

[ET Awful]

87. How is out of context when it's a direct quote?

The context is this thread, the comments are your responses to this thread, the quotes are from your posts.

It can't be taken out of context.

You said it, in response to other posts, and the context is there for all to see.

[MadisonProgressive]

91. Because you separated the comments from what I commented on.

[ET Awful]

92. No, I didn't, it's impossible to do so, as the thread is there for all to

see. Your statements and their context are obvious for anyone who reads the thread to see.

[MadisonProgressive]

97. Just because you say so - doesn't make it so

[ET Awful]

103. LOL

No seriously, you really have me laughing now . . . so let me get this right, because YOU say it's not rape, it's not rape, but because I say that your words are plain for all to see, along with their context, that isn't so?

You can't be serious.

[MadisonProgressive]

112. No, because consenting adults had sex together.

[benevolent dictator]

114. After one was made to "cave in" by the other one.

[MadisonProgressive]

125. Wrong.

[benevolent dictator]

136. Changing your story now?

[MadisonProgressive]

140. No. Why?

[Fierce]

118. And after one said "no."

[MadisonProgressive]

124. And then said 'yes'.

[Fierce]

127. If, as you say, no sometimes doesn't mean no...

...how can you be sure her "yes" meant yes?

[MadisonProgressive]

129. Because yes ALWAYS means yes.

[Fierce]

131. Yeah, if that's the answer you want to hear.

Where did you get the idea that you're entitled to sex?

[MadisonProgressive]

133. My buddy Peter told me...

[Fierce]

135. Discussions about rape. A laugh a minute.

[MadisonProgressive]

138. No, you are discussing rape - I've been discussing consensual sex

[Fierce]

143. Sez you.

[MadisonProgressive]

146. Right!

[VelmaD]

132. excellent point

Of course...this guy obviously has an amazing ability to read minds. You can't possibly mean what you say unless it's what he wants to hear.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[benevolent dictator]

99. How can your comments be "taken out of context" when they're only

as long as the subject line to begin with? We're still in the same context of the discussion, and the quotes aren't being taken out of context from the rest of the content of the message.

[ET Awful]

106. Thank you, seemed pretty obvious to me. n/t

[benevolent dictator]

80. You've lost. Give up.

[VelmaD]

82. He obviously never heard one of life's little rules...

when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole...STOP DIGGING

[MadisonProgressive]

84. I am not a rapist - so I will continue to defend myself against your

unfair and misguided attacks on me.

[benevolent dictator]

89. Coercing a woman who has told you no into having sex with her

is rape.

No means no.

[MadisonProgressive]

100. That is an outright lie. I wasn't coercing anyone.

[benevolent dictator]

104. How would you define getting someone to "cave in" then?

Or how about regrouping and trying another tactic until they gave in?

[MadisonProgressive]

109. That's called 'convincing' NOT coercing.

[benevolent dictator]

115. No means no.

If you continue to pressure after that, it's coercion.

[MadisonProgressive]

141. Maybe in your world...

[benevolent dictator]

148. NO ALWAYS MEANS NO.

WTF do you mean, "maybe in my world..."? NO always means NO. If you continue to pressure after that, you are disregarding that NO. You are invalidating it, saying it is meaningless. "NO" is not a "Game" to be "won" by getting a "yes." NO MEANS NO.

[MadisonProgressive]

152. That's incorrect.

[benevolent dictator]

160. How is that incorrect.

You said earlier that "Yes ALWAYS means yes." How can you say that, and yet claim that "no doesn't always mean no"?

This isn't the "she always means what I want her to mean" game. If she says NO, it means NO. It doesn't mean "try something else to get what you want, regardless of what she says."

[MadisonProgressive]

164. No can often mean maybe - yes always means yes

[Fierce]

110. Look, you said you ignored "no."

How is that not coercion?

[VelmaD]

90. I never flat out called you a rapist...

I just want you to re-examine some of your opinions and behavior in light of what people are telling you in this thread about how your self-professed behavior can be viewed. Do a little self-reflecting instead of this infantile, knee-jerk reactiom you're having.

[ET Awful]

93. Nobody did, he just can't deal with the realization that given very

slightly different circumstances, the behavior he finds acceptable could and would constitute rape.

[MadisonProgressive]

98. This "behavior" happened 30 years ago - before I was married!

[VelmaD]

101. Then by now you should have grown up enough...

to acknowledge that that behavior was wrong.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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[VelmaD]

111. Actually the social work degree on my wall...

and the years of education and study in psychology, sociology and the human sciences tend to point to me knowing a lot about what I'm talking about.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[ET Awful]

117. So now you're calling Velma a liar? n/t

[MadisonProgressive]

120. Let her fight her own battles will ya - I can barely keep up here

I'm at work you know...

[VelmaD]

123. yup...

he's lucky I have a strict policy...I don't alert when people call me names...I prefer it to stay up in public so people can see exactly how people behave.

[VelmaD]

119. You know what...

you're obviously a hopeless case. You can impugn my veracity and my professional credentials...but it only makes you look like an ass...but you've already been doing that through most of this thread.

[MadisonProgressive]

130. And thank you for helping me increase my post count!

[benevolent dictator]

121. Dude, you're the one saying it's not rape

as long as she doesn't file charges...

[MadisonProgressive]

128. Wrong again!

[benevolent dictator]

139. YOU SAID IT. How can I be wrong?

[MadisonProgressive]

145. Because I was being sarcastic

[benevolent dictator]

151. First, I don't believe you.

Second, they have plenty of ways to note that on the forum - none of which you used.

[MadisonProgressive]

154. So I forgot the sarcasm smiley - sorry!

[benevolent dictator]

163. Even if you WERE joking, which I don't think you were

(why else would you have defended it for so long?) - it's not funny.

[MadisonProgressive]

165. Sorry, I guess I have a wierd sense of humor - Aspergers Syndrome

[VelmaD]

169. That is a lame excuse...

and an insult to the many DUers I know who have Asperger's and 1) would never engage in the behavior we've been seeing from you today and used Asperger's as an excuse and 2) would have apologized WELL before now for being so rude.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

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[VelmaD]

174. Yeah...calling us 'girls'...

is a sure way to defuse the sitution. :eyes:

So explain exactly how calling me a liar wasn't rude? What. Ever.

[MadisonProgressive]

177. You 'women' can't take good-natured ribbing!

[VelmaD]

179. Yeah...it's all just a big fucking joke...

I saw where you called someone a feminazi down thread. I think that pretty much says everything that needs to be said about exactly what kind of person you are.

[MadisonProgressive]

181. If the shoe fits - is all I can say

[VelmaD]

183. I have the exact same feeling about men on this board...

who act like neaderthal freeper assholes.

[MadisonProgressive]

185. That's good.

[ET Awful]

182. Which is why he's now on my ignore list.

It's a wast of time.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

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[benevolent dictator]

102. Oh! Well then! If it was 30 years ago and you weren't married,

then it's all fine and dandy. You're right, it wasn't rape or coercion at all. :sarcasm:

[MadisonProgressive]

105. No, you are wrong. I didn't rape anyone then or since.

[VelmaD]

81. Wow...what a HUGE...

sense of entitlement you have. :wow:

[ThomCat]

47. And they go unreported for exactly the reasons we see here.

A lot of people will line up to trash any woman who says she was raped. She will be convicted in the court of public opinion long before he will ever face even a serious investigation.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadisonProgressive]

79. Thank you for lending some sanity to this thread!

[VelmaD]

You really don't get it either do you

You've obviously never been on the recieving end of the kind of behavior this guy is saying he engages in. Talk to some of the women you know...you may be surprised at the number who have given into to sex they didn't really want. It's not "playing hard to get"...and thanks for bringing up that sexist, old canard.

[ET Awful]

95. Well done Velma, I wasn't even going to respond to that post due

to it's personal attack style, but you did it for me :).

[VelmaD]

108. not a problem

Some days it's just SO much fun to be a woman on DU.

[TheWraith]

137. I certainly do get it. Better than you do.

"You've obviously never been on the recieving end of the kind of behavior this guy is saying he engages in."

Sure I have. Are you under the impression that only men can be sexually agressive?

"you may be surprised at the number who have given into to sex they didn't really want."

If they didn't want to have sex, they should have refused. Just as saying "no" doesn't mean "yes," saying "yes" doesn't mean "no." That should be pretty self-evident. If you're expected to take someone at face value, and meaning exactly what they say, then saying "yes" means "yes." And the women I know generally have no problem expressing what they do and don't want.

"sexist, old canard."

Well, as long as we're being obnoxious, how about the "sexist canard" that all men are rapists? You seem to have no problem with that. And whether you like to acknowledge it or not, playing hard to get IS a common practice, not just for women but for both genders. Persuit and persuasion is part of the game.

[VelmaD]

155. Actually I am a very sex-positive person...

who loves to have sex (and some pretty wild stuff too) and can be aggressive as long as everyone participating is there 100 percent willingly. And there is the BIG difference between me and the guy we're pillorying upthread. If you have to "coerce" or "convince" someone or talk them around to a yes...then you shouldn't be having sex with them...especially not at that same point in time. It's too close to the "no" for it to be a really meaningful "yes". A little self-control doesn't seem like too much to ask. Wait. Talk. Make sure it's a real "yes". Otherwise, no matter what your gender is, keep your pants zipped.

[benevolent dictator]

86. How can you compare coerced sex

and "buying a product"? They are in no way the same thing. Being talked into buying a product may leave you with some lingering monetary regrets, but it's probably not going to shatter your trust, leave you feeling guilty, alone, confused, or blaming yourself for letting yourself "cave in."

If a woman says NO, it means NO, it doesn't mean "try a different style of advertising."

[TheWraith]

144. It's called an analogy. Look it up.

I was comparing the ideas of persuasion and force. If you talk someone into something, that's completely different than forcing them into it. One is harmful, the other isn't. Your side is the one that's unable to make the distinction between getting someone to want to do something, and compelling them to do it. We're talking about two different things, and you seem unwilling to admit that they ARE different.

[ET Awful]

149. Sorry, but it's a pretty crappy analogy.

Buying something at a store based on high pressure marketing doesn't carry with it the risk of disease, pregnancy, long-term psychological damage, etc.

[ThomCat]

88. Are you?

People give into coersion all the time. People are pressured into doing things they didn't want to do, and things they regret later.

In a world where everyone was absolutely equal, and equally strong, maybe you would be right. But date-rape proves you wrong.

Rape isn't an economic transaction where all you spent was some money. If you don't like what happened, you can't take it back for a refund or exchange. In a situation where "all sales are final" and in situations like that pressure and coersion are devastating.

[TheWraith]

172. You're talking about coersion again.

That's not where this argument started. It started because your side insisted that if your partner changed their mind about sex from no to yes, it was the same as forcibly raping someone in the back of your car. It isn't. And I agree with you about coersion. But there's a ridiculously huge divide here between persuasion and coersion, and your side refuses to see that. It has to do with the willingness of the participant. Minor details aside, persuasion produces a willing, engaged participant, coersion produces an unwilling, unengaged participant.

[Fierce]

96. Good God, you have no idea, do you.

Sure, they'll refuse. And sometimes men don't listen.

[TheWraith]

153. And THAT would be rape.

Which is, as I've said, completely different from someone agreeing to do something of their own volition, whether persuaded or not. Emphasis on the difference: willing versus coerced. Talking someone into something doesn't equate coercion, it equates persuasion.

[MadisonProgressive]

184. Thank you. Women here think we are just stupid.

[Fierce]

19. Did you stop when she said "stop" or "no"?

[MadisonProgressive]

22. Yes, I did. I regrouped and tried another approach.

[Fierce]

35. Why?

[ET Awful]

38. Because to him "no" is a challenge, not a statement of someone who

means "no."

[MadisonProgressive]

45. You don't know me at all - thanks for the character assasination

[ET Awful]

48. You assassinated your own character.

You're the one that said that if she said no, you regrouped and tried another approach. Sorry, but that equates exactly to taking her "NO" as a challenge and attempting to coerce her. They're your words, not mine.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[ET Awful]

52. Geee, I'm not the one saying I keep pressuring women to have sex

despite their statements that they do not want it.

That seems like the actions of an adult to me, or rather, the actions of a MATURE adult.

What exactly are you?

[MadisonProgressive]

55. Haha... You sure are riled up this afternoon!

[ET Awful]

57. Me? Not at all.

I'm not the one condoning rape and getting hopping mad defending my actions and my coercion of women.

[MadisonProgressive]

58. There you go - where did I EVER condone RAPE?

[ET Awful]

60. Every time you say it's okay to "regroup and try another approach"

to coerce a woman into sex who has already told you no you are condoning rape. Plain and simple.

Here's a little hint that might help you out a bit . . . what does and does not constitute rape is in the mind of the raped, not the rapist.

[MadisonProgressive]

61. You are stating a falicy. To regroup and try another approach is

not rape. And the women in question didn't think they were raped.

[ET Awful]

66. LOL . . . what's a "falicy"?

You're the one saying above that if a woman didn't report a rape she wasn't raped. . . . now THAT is a fallacy.

[MadisonProgressive]

69. So now you're picking on my spelling - looks like you've lost this debate

[ET Awful]

71. Tell you what ask all the women here who is losing the debate.

I think you might be a little shocked.

I'm not the one saying that "no" doesn't mean "no" and saying that coercing a woman into sex is fine and dandy. I'm also not the one that says a crime that isn't reported isn't a crime.

[MadisonProgressive]

74. Wow - you are good!

You just stated another 3 things that I DIDN'T SAY. I really think you owe me an apology.

[ET Awful]

85. I don't owe you anything.

Everything I said you said is shown in your posts throughout this thread for anyone and everyone to see.

You're the one that can't take "no" for an answer so you "regroup and try another approach" do you deny saying that?

You yourself said in posts above that sometimes no doesn't mean no. Do you deny that?

You're the one whose posts above say it isn't rape because it wasn't reported. Those are your words, not mine.

If you don't like people revealing the ugly underbelly of what you say, you probably shouldn't say it.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[ET Awful]

122. Once again, your words are there for anyone to see.

You posted them, not me. I didn't steal your ID, log in and post as you. They're your words, not mine.

[MadisonProgressive]

126. I stand by everthing I've said - not your crazy interpretation of it.n

[ET Awful]

142. And, as I said, everyone can see what you've said and judge it for

themselves. You make yourself very obvious, and anyone can read and see exactly what you've said, they can also see exactly what I've said.

I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

[MadisonProgressive]

150. I'm perfectly comfortable with you too.

Thanks for giving me a foil to increas my post count!

[ET Awful]

158. Your goal is to increase your post count?

Hmmmmm, says even more about you than your anti-woman ranting.

[MadisonProgressive]

161. No, just a side benefit - do you feel the need to criticize everything

[ET Awful]

168. Nope only those things with odd relationships, such as someone

who spews misogynistic nonsense while showing a bizarre interest in their post count.

You figure it out.

[MadisonProgressive]

170. I can't figure it out - you make very little sense.

[ET Awful]

176. Odd, I think everyone here besides you can understand me perfectly.

That's a pretty good sign that I'm making complete sense.

But, I'm through discussing anything with you. Your contempt for the rights of women is readily apparent.

So, bye bye.

[MadisonProgressive]

178. Bye. I hope we can chat again sometime under better circumstances

[Fierce]

76. So you've tried this "regroup and try again" with more than one woman?

Hmmm...they ALL needed to "give themselves permission"? Hmmm...you sure know how to pick 'em, I guess.

[MadisonProgressive]

147. I didn't pick them. They picked me.

[ET Awful]

156. Little hint: If they "picked you" you wouldn't have had to coerce them

with your "regroup and try another approach" tactic.

[MadisonProgressive]

157. You really don't know much about people do you?

I really don't know how to respond since you twist everything i say.

[ET Awful]

159. Judging by your conduct in this thread, I'd say I know a great deal more

about people than you do.

[MadisonProgressive]

162. Well, you don't know me.

[ET Awful]

166. Personally, based on your attitude here, I'd say that's a blessing. n/t

[MadisonProgressive]

167. Now, that's not very nice of you. I don't dislike you...

[ET Awful]

173. I didn't say I dislike you, I said not knowing you is a blessing.

There's a difference. I have no desire to know someone who has no respect for a womans right to say "no" and instead considers it a call for him to somehow get her to "cave in."

Having do desire to know you, and disliking you are two different things. But then again, I don't "like" you either, I'm completely indifferent to you. Your opinions however, are reprehensible.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

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[MadisonProgressive]

44. Because I don't rape

[ET Awful]

51. Ah, so your whole argument is based on the fact that you think that

nothing you've done can be considered rape?

Guess what . . . if you continue engaging in the behavior you describe, at some point, someone WILL call it rape, and you will be so convinced that it's not that you will scream that to the rafters . . . all the time not realizing that by any moral (and most legal) definitions, to pressure a woman into sex after she's said "no" is rape.

[MadisonProgressive]

53. Yeah, right! I might as well turn myself in right now

[TheWraith]

64. You're violating DU rules right now.

The rules clearly state, no personal attacks. You've broken that rule several times on this thread. I suggest that you apologize, and reconsider the extreme and unwarranted opinion that got you in this position.

[ET Awful]

68. Sorry, but pointing out that the behavior he describes fits the classic

definition of rape is not a personal attack, it's a statement of fact.

[benevolent dictator]

70. EXCUSE ME?! "Extreme and unwarrranted opinion"??

If any woman says NO at ANY time, IT MEANS NO. END OF STORY. "Regrouping" and "Trying a different approach" and getting women to "cave in" to sex and then claiming it's not rape because they "didn't file charges." Um... who really has the "extreme and unwarrented opinion" here?

NO MEANS NO.

[ET Awful]

72. Thank you for stating the obvious.

and welcome to DU :)

[benevolent dictator]

77. Ha. Thanks.

I've been around for a while but I mostly just lurk. :)

[Fierce]

73. I see no extreme and unwarranted opinion.

[freeplessinseattle]

24. "cave in"? to what, your "seductive wiles"

sounds less than consensual

[ET Awful]

28. Maybe it was the begging and pleading and holding his breath til

he turned blue?

[MadisonProgressive]

33. Something turned purple tho...

[ET Awful]

37. What your balls after she kneed you in the crotch for trying to coerce

her into unwanted sex?

[MadisonProgressive]

46. No, three more guesses

[TheWraith]

94. It's grossly uninformed, irrational opinions like this that undermine

Entire causes and points of view. Just in case you've never been in the real world, let me enlighten you to something. The thing that you're so dead set on viewing as "rape" is in fact a fairly common component of human mating rituals. Almost anyone who's romantically active will end up on both sides of the situation at some point. But just because someone is initially resistant to sex doesn't mean that they're permanently incapable of changing their mind. It takes a real lack of perspective to equate seduction and rape. If I had changed my mind and slept with the very charming and forward young lady I met on a trip awhile back, would I have been "raped"? Of course not. And I suspect that you would agree, because your perspective seems mostly oriented around casting women as victims. Which is in and of itself pretty fucked up. You manage to grossly insult both sexes: by implying that men are able to make up their minds freely, while women are impressionable fools; and conversely by implying that an agressive man is a rapist while an agressive woman is just fine.

Stances like this are the reason that entire causes get marginalized. When you insist that every third sex act is a rape, it drives away rational people who would otherwise support violence prevention, and it turns you into a niche of kooks.

[ET Awful]

180. Sorry, but flowery speechification doesn't negate the fact that

he considers coercing a women to "cave-in" to be acceptable.

[MadisonProgressive]

32. You people need to get out more!

[ET Awful]

36. No, I think it's you that needs to stay in.

Anyone who thinks a woman that says "no" means "yes" shouldn't be socializing with women.

[MadisonProgressive]

39. Oh, you say, do you? It does happen you know!

[ET Awful]

42. What?

That made no sense whatsoever.

[Katherine Brengle]

189. CAVE IN???

Sorry, but if that is your idea of consent, you have some serious fucking issues.

Why would you want to have sex with a woman who has simply "caved in?"

[Fierce]

15. How do you know?

"Great majority"? Mm-hmm.

[ET Awful]

17. First, if a woman is drunk or incapacitated in any way, she can NOT

be truly consenting to sex. If you're impaired, you can not be said to be granting legitimate consent.

Second, if she said "no" one time, or even slurred something that sounded like "no" that means NO.

If you don't like it, that's too bad.

BTW, I'm a 36 year old male, and this seems pretty obvious to me.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

31. Alcohol,

the rapist's greatest excuse. If she had anything to drink just shout, "But she concented at the time!" and suddenly it's a free pass to rape with impunity.

[philosophie_en_rose]

6. Check with the California Anti-Sexual Assault Coalitions

They should have money, info, and experts to help you.

I am huge on women's rights. And the main thing is to keep struggling against the system.

[Warpy]

7. AAAUUUUGGGGGH!

Old, stupid, sexist, hateful attitudes toward women sure die hard, if they die at all.

Women are raped because of what they're wearing, where they're walking, how they're walking, the length of their hair, the time of day, where they had to park blah blah blah blah blah.

Get over it, god damn it. A woman is raped because SOME MAN WAS AN ASSHOLE WHO THOUGHT HE HAD A RIGHT TO A BODY NOT HIS OWN. A woman is raped because SOME ASSHOLE WANTED TO MASTURBATE INTO HER BODY.

Rape is a hate crime.

Blaming women and curtailing their behavior is not the answer.

[LiberalVoice]

8. wtf?

Can you explain to me how a woman can put herself in a gang rape situation while the men doing the raping arent putting themselves in the exact same position? For every woman that is raped because of the situation "she put herself in" there is a man(or group of men) that put themselves in the exact same situation, only they are the ones doing the raping.

[Demit]

9. Can I ask what you mean by "I'm not huge on womens rights"?

What on earth do you mean by that??

[ThomCat]

34. Perhaps that women's rights are a wonderful idea in theory

but, you know, people can take that equality thing too far.

:sarcasm:

[Demit]

50. I could sort of understand a woman's declaimer about feminism, since that

term has gotten the same workover as "liberal" has, over the past 10 or 15 years. But for a woman to say she's not big on rights--anybody's rights--is just a stunner to me. And she's in college? This is an educated person???

[benevolent dictator]

11. Does Duke U have self-defense classes?

Here at Ohio State University, we have 5 week women's self defense classes almost every quarter, they're free and open to women in the community as well. I strongly recommend it, as - at least the ones here - teach a lot about verbal self-defense and awareness, as well as how to break a guy's nose.

If Duke University doesn't have self-defense classes, they should get them. If they do have them, they should be publicized widely.

Men don't take us seriously because they're not physically afraid of us.-Ellen Willis

[ThomCat]

41. Self defense classes are mostly show.

If several guys crowd you and bear you down there's little self defense classes will help. If you're on a date and he's decides that date rape sounds like fun, he's probably already got you in a clinch, and you won't have the room or freedom to do much of anything.

Once things get close it's not fighting, it's wrestling, and we all know that your weight class makes a huge difference in wrestling. The bigger person almost always wins.

[benevolent dictator]

67. The self-defense class here

does a lot of non-physical work, since that should only be used as a last option because you're right, the men do have the advantage.

The class here focuses a lot on identifying threatening situations, staying out of them, and how to be assertive and stop things before they escalate. I'm not talking Karate here, either, it's quick and dirty moves to get you out of a tough situation if possible. I mean, really, the two things that are most effective in getting you out of a bad situation are yelling like hell and running. If you do that, you don't play into their "plan." Neither does fighting back. They don't want you to fight back, they want you to submit meekly to them so that later they can say you didn't protest at all.

[Fierce]

14. Jayzus H.

LIVING IN THIS WORLD puts women in situations leading to sexual assault. LIVING, period, puts women in those situations. From their fathers. Their boyfriends. Their bosses. Their husbands. Their friends. JAYSUS. Maybe men should learn to goddamn well control themselves, then there wouldn't be a problem.

[Fierce]

20. What about women's rights aren't you big on?

The being in charge of your own bank account? Being able to vote? Being able to go to college, for crying out loud?

[Tool Fan]

25. That's a pretty loaded statement...

BUT

I did have a friend I took with me to a frat party back in my college days. She went upstairs with one of the guys to his room with the intention of having sex with him. She told me later that he invited one of his friends in the room for a turn with her. Was that "rape"? Yes. Is there any excuse for that behaviour from the men? No. But did my friend put herself in a situation leading to sexual assault? Absolutely. She made a conscious, if stupid, decision to go upstairs with said frat-boy.

Rape is inexcusable, but women need to THINK before they say things and flirt around, and understand that the risk and consequences of things like "groupie" behaviour and alcohol consumption. You've GOTTA KNOW that rape happens in situations like that. If you're going to choose that method of "dating", you have to accept the risks and know how to protect yourself. No woman asks for it, and certainly many rape situations are completely unpreventable, but women can do themselves big favours by playing it smart.

If USC is going to educate the men about sexual behaviour and assault, they should teach the women students about it, too.

[VelmaD]

54. bullshit

Everyone wants to believe there's something THEY could have done...that THEY wouldn't have put themself in that situation. But it's bullshit. It's a lie we tell ourselves so we don't have to live with the knowledge that any random man at any time could try to usurp our authority over our own bodies and that the current legal system would likely let him get away with it. And then we would be the one everyone said should have acted different. Cope.

[DELUSIONAL]

27. Perhaps the men should be confined to quarters

and only allowed out with an escort (chaperon).

Obviously the males have not been adequately socialized. And the female "groupies" haven't been taught about the predatory human male.

Perhaps the first College course should me male predatory behavior -- or how to manage unsocialized males in a social context (or non social context). For high profile male athletes -- they need a great deal of socialization. Too much time spent in male bonding makes them completely unaware and unable to read female social cues.

To me these high profile athletes were spoiled rotten and as a rule so full of themselves that they thought everyone worshiped them as gods. I found them to be dull and boring and horribly self absorbed. In the years since I've been a college student -- things haven't changed much at all.

Messner said male athletes tend to commit more sexual assault crimes because they use women to connect with each other.

"Guys in those kinds of groups tend to learn how to connect with each other through sexual competitions and banter," Messner said.

Messner said many athletes use women as a bonding tool by viewing pornography, hiring women to do live sex shows, using prostitutes or hiring sex workers to have sex with them.

Michael Messner, USC sociology professor and author of "Taking the Field: Women, Men and Sports," said he has not researched lacrosse teams because they are not as popular in California, but sexual assault cases are common among high-status and aggressive sports such as football and basketball.

Some males are well socialized and others are just pigs and they will always be Frat pigs -- just like the idiot in the White House. From what I've read of his social skills he has none or few -- he's a jerk Frat boy. But since he wasn't a jock on campus -- merely a "cheer leader" at a all male high school and later college -- he has no social graces learned in adapting to females.

[Katherine Brengle]

186. "I'm not huge on womens rights, but I know this is bad." Get real.

If you don't care about issues directly effecting half of the human population, why bother even posting here?

I hate these kinds of qualifiers.

Who are you trying to convince that you don't give a shit about women's rights? Yourself? The sexist portion of DU?

You either care, or you don't. No need to qualifiers, no need for excuses.

[LisaLynne]

190. Locking ...

Sorry to do this, but this thread has gotten too uncivil.

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