"I'm not a feminist or anything, but..."

[Katherine Brengle]

"I'm not into women's rights, but..."

"I'm not really big on the whole women's lib thing, but..."



Why do people preface pro-women's rights stories and arguments this way (or some variation thereof)?

What is so shameful about being a feminist, or a feminist apologist?

I'm sick of it.

And I would never expect to see it in this particular forum, but I have run into it many, many times lately.

The way I see it, if I am too scared/ashamed/PC/whatever to claim the title of Feminist, then I have no place trying to advocate for women.

Thoughts?

[MercutioATC]

1. I'm not an animal rights activist, BUT....

Both groups had/have well-publicized extremist elements that gave/give them a bad name.

I don't think it's any more complex than that. The speaker doesn't want to be identified with the (sometimes deservedly) negative stereotype.

[Katherine Brengle]

5. I have yet to meet an "extreme" feminist...

although I have heard they exist... As far as I can see, the vast, vast, vast majority of feminists and animal rights activists are reasonable people who happen to be a little more enlightened than most.

Of course I am biased, as I am both of these things, but this also means that I have met more of both.

[jobycom]

9. LOL! I've never met an "extremist" that agrees with me

Most often the extremists I meet claim I am the extremist, but it's really darn clear to me that I'm normal and they are extreme! :rofl:

[MercutioATC]

14. I think it was the whole hairy armpit, burn the bras thing...

People saw that as extremist.

[Warpy]

23. Nobody burnt bras, as a general rule,

that was a media lie. If hairy armpits offend you so deeply, perhaps you need to instruct the deity responsible for designing them that they are distateful to you.

It seems that a lot of people shrink in horror from anything the media sensationalizes. I guess there are a lot of gullible suckers in the world, aren't there?

[MercutioATC]

26. Hey, hey, hey....don't shoot the messenger.

I'm opining on why SOME might view "feminists" negatively. I didn't state the reasons as personal views.

(although I do, admittedly, prefer shaved female underarms)

[Katherine Brengle]

28. I would greatly prefer shaved male underarms...

Why is it that we are the only ones required to be clean?

Men are very often disgusting smelly pigs (and this includes my dear husband, who I love with all my heart but do not hesitate to push into the shower).

[LostinVA]

32. OMG -- what stereotypes, and it proves my point

Who cares if women did burn bras or not shave their underarms? But, the smear machine made THIS seem extremist, radical, not "feminine." Geez.

[struggle4progress]

51. "Extremist!" cries started when women gave up whalebone corsets ..

.. and wanted to vote.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. I've met a few of each

I've also met a couple of extreme masculinists, animal haters, et cetera. People are quite ideological these days, and cultivating a niche hatred is almost a hobby for many of them.

Fortunately, these "hatreds" are a mile wide but an inch deep for the most part. The modern hater is damaged goods, a broken child grown-up; the classic haters, like the Nazis, carefully cultivated their hatreds like some infernal exotic bonsai garden.

On the other hand, feminism, etc., are NOT hatreds, and have long histories of supporting human dignity (does this mean that the animal rights people would support "inhuman dignity"? :) ). Yes, I've even met a few masculinists who had come to the same fundamental conclusions that feminists have. Most of these movements have broadly similar aims -- better lives and less misery.

But wisdom is rare, and vulgarity is common. Lack of education, lack of leisure time, and too much fear can wreak havoc on the human mind. You get a few sociopaths, a few manage to escape it, and the great mass of people are just damaged by the experience. Feminism, like any movement for freedom and dignity, is one of the ways by which people can escape their abuse. That may explain, too, why so many people fear it.

--p!

[Midlodemocrat]

61. The 'radical' feminists that I have met IRL were idiots.

My way or the highway types. The type who will tell which words are offensive, or which thoughts are offensive because they are too stupid and immature to get over it themselves.

[LostinVA]

10. I don't think it's that at all -- I think it's what I said in another post

It's people disliking women's rights forcing a negative connotation onto ot... smearing it... like unions are Commies...

[MercutioATC]

15. I think you're reading a little too much into it.

I've said "I'm not an animal rights activist, but..." before. That's where the sentiment came from, the desire to be listened to without the negative stereotype.

...but that's just my opinion.

[LostinVA]

31. I actually don't think I am

I've been listening to the smear machine the last three decades make "feminist" into a dirty word.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. ohh whatever! animals rights and human rights are not the same thing

and never should be equated

[LeftyMom]

41. Dear Lioness

Please go check out the Sexual Politics of Meat from the library before you suggest that the two ideas aren't related. Both are the product of repression and "othering." Both are tools of both capitalism and patriarchy, as usual intertwined. Both are tied up in how the media portrays women and animals as willing, even eager victims and men as fully masculine only when they exploit women and animals for thier own needs.

Oh hell, Carol Adams expains it better than I do. If you don't want to read any books of hers let me know and I can probably dig up an article or interview or something.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. sorry but both arent of equal importance to me.

and in countries like india, cows have been free forever but not women. so i dont see the correlation.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

67. And those cows suffer incredible cruelty.

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0002/WD15-5476.html

Just one of many links. Look around.

Those cows roaming "free" are often starved and diseased. Pathetic.

Those who truly respect animals will also respect humans.

[Madspirit]

64. They are to me.

Animals rights are every bit as important as human rights are, to me.

Lee

[Madspirit]

63. One Person's Extremist...

moved to bottom

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. I agree

This kind of attitude has disgusted me for years. Ever read Susan Faludi's "The Backlash Against American Women"? It was written at the end of the 80s, but has some interesting things to say about the younger generations of women, and the "stigma" of the word feminist.

[lizerdbits]

20. Great book

I should read it again soon. :) I have a friend who sees the label as a stigma. She's a single mom because the dad has substance abuse problems he can't kick (I hope that doesn't sound judgemental, I've never had to kick drug problems so I don't know how hard it is.) She's had a couple abortions because she couldn't afford to have any more kids. She believes she has the right to equal wages to support herself and daughter. But she refuses to be called a feminist because we're all just a bunch of man hating lesbians. And she has no idea why I embrace the word feminist, when I believe the exact same things she does. Note to self: become a lesbian and hate men. :eyes:

[ecassese]

48. Thanks

Thanks for the suggestion. I am looking for some summer reading.

[lukasahero]

49. Welcome to DU

:hi:

Enjoy your light "summer reading". ;)

[cornermouse]

3. Same thing they've done to the word liberal and

to a great extent, democrat. (why they preface anything) I'm pretty sick of the word republican, myself.

[LostinVA]

4. I'm sick of it, too... because people have made feminist=man-hater, shrill

feminazi, etc.

[Katherine Brengle]

7. Right? Weird, last time I checked, I was married to a man!

I must not be a feminist then--oops, my mistake.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

11. I know -- THAT'S why it's crazy!

[lizerdbits]

60. "Feminazi"

I have yet to meet a person who supports gender equality AND wants to kill Jews. A branch of the neo-nazis maybe? :shrug:

[jobycom]

6. People try to sound objective

It's a way to head off a label, so your arguement won't be dismissed so easily. If you tell someone "I'm a feminist and I believe 'X,'" some people will dismiss your opinion because you are biased, maybe even radically, towards the subject. If you say "I'm not a feminist, but I agree with 'X,'" the hope of the arguer is that their opinion will hold more weight for being less involved emotionally in the subject.

Not that I do it. I quickly identify myself as a feminist in such discussions. It would be hard to hide the fact once the debate got going, anyway.

Not that I go around looking for debates, but...

[Kutjara]

8. The term 'feminist' has gone through the same...

...toxic effects of right-wing propaganda as 'liberal.' The Righties have been so effective at redefining these words in negative contexts that the very act of using the words to describe someone virtually destroys their credibility.

It works in reverse, too. Saying "I'm not a racist, but..." and then spewing some hate filth seems to immunise the speaker from accusations of bigotry. Instead, they are viewed by the mouth-breathing majority as speaking 'common sense' in the face of 'PC gone mad.'

[redwitch]

12. Pisses me off too Katherine

Mostly I hear it fromm young'uns who take for granted the hard won rights they now enjoy.

[Faygo Kid]

13. Well, you ought to expect it of this forum. I will.

And I'm an old Boomer whose daughter turns 30 in October. And one who grew up without a Dad, but a Mom who worked in poverty, in a laundry situation. My brother and I were always well fed, and cleanly dressed, and Mom kicked the Beater (Dad) out of the house in 1959. Neither my daughter, nor my ex, nor my very dearest friend (she's amazing) have or ever were apologetic. So cut the crap, angst doesn't get us anywhere. But, be kind to yourself. And advocate like hell. And let me know what I can write a letter or petition about in support of your activities.

[napi21]

16. I haven't seen or heard of an extreme feminist in years, but they used to

exist, and they were VERY VOCAL! I was part of the beginning of the feminist movement, but I never did agree that you should get pissed off if a man opens a door for you, or offers to pay for dinner. I always thought that was stupid, and I still do!

Ive opened the door for a man, if I was first in line, and I've paid for dinner when I wanted to do that. It's great that the restaurant servers don't flip out anymore when the woman picks up the check! Yes, that used to happen too!

I think most of not all of the radical feminists have died of old age, and those who are remaining are just women who want to be treated equally to every human being.

[bobalu]

22. ..The "extreme feminists" mentioned here were mainly imaginary products

of an angry, frightened male media...and by the way...there was NEVER any "bra burning"..another popular media myth...The incident referred to the 1968 Miss America Pageant in which some women chucked their bras into a "freedom trashcan" The door opening, dinner paying...that was never the big issue behind feminism...That was what the pea-brained (and hostile) media made hay of...The main idea..as it is today...was RESPECT.
I find it a little frightening that a number of women on a site this progressive still buy into those old stereotypes.

I was also part of the beginning -- second wave, actually -- of feminism..and I have to chuckle that you think that some of the original "radicals" may have "died of old age"...I don't know how old YOU are, but I'm only fifty six!

[sui generis]

17. it's best to assume goodwill until proven otherwise

it's a lot easier on your blood pressure and anxiety levels. Ask a hundred people what they think a feminist is and you'll get a hundred answers - so assuming the crash position without a reason to is just a waste of heartbeats . . . and goodwill.

Of all the things we should never be ashamed of, celebrating our humanness and our diversity in the space of the few heartbeats we are allotted is at the top of my list. Plus the older I get the more I realize that assuming ill will without a good reason actually causes ill will.

It's odd that it happens as frequently as it does on DU no less! Plus, any label we put on ourselves in advocacy of anything is really a role, and not an identity. It's like a hat or a suit - it's not the label on the hat that matters so much as how well you wear it . . . and nobody wears the same clothes all the time.

[NotGivingUp]

18. Funny you should say that...

cuz it was my first thought when I saw your preface. I am not ashamed of being a feminist whatsoever!

[stillcool]

21. my aunt used to say that...

...she had a real loathing for whatever the term implied to her, but I think she was uncomfortable with her own sexuality. It was almost as if she found the term threatening...actually I think she thought of 'feminism' as 'gay'. hmmm...

[bloom]

24. I think it would be a good way

to separate the progressives and liberals from those who are not.

If people can't embrace terms like feminist, liberal and progressive - what are they doing here?


Seems like the least we should be able to expect.


And anyone who can't understand the definition of rape has no business here either.

[ropi]

25. easy

being a feminist was made to look so bad in the 80's and 90's that by the time the entire 'feminazi' idea took off that the use of the preface became normal.

i am a feminist--third wave--and i love the second wave radical feminists--those women rocked and we need more like em again.

[bobalu]

27. ..I'll take that as a compliment...Thanks!

[NMMNG]

29. Blame it on OxyRush and his contemporaries

They made feminist a dirty word (or, rather "feminazi").

[bumblebee1]

30. I remember when I was in the Navy.

There was a ball on base. I asked a guy I was dating to go and he accepted. He told a few of the his female friends about the date, they all gave him a "She actually asked you to the ball?" look. They couldn't believe that I asked him to the ball. In School, I'd ask some of the guys to slow dance with me. Maybe I was ahead of my time.

I don't have any problems with men who hold doors open for me. I'll hold a door open for either a man or a woman. It's called common courtesy. To me, whoever asks another out for a date should be the one to pay (male or female).

[Post]

33. Duke and Predatory Feminism?!?

This is very scary. Here's what is REALLY in the hearts and minds of angry white men in the "fly over states!" http://postanapology.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-and-predatory-feminism.html#links

[Book Lover]

34. It's because they really aren't feminists

They may hold an opinion that coincides with a feminist principle, but I'm taking people at their word. If you say you aren't a feminist, even if you think women should vote, hold office, etc, etc, then you are not a feminist. Your belief or lack thereof that women and men are equal in rights and responsibilities before the law is no longer relevant to the discussion.

[Cherry Blossom]

35. Feminist = Prude, Manhaters

Who look under every rug for signs of female oppression - this according to my most liberal of liberal friends. Its a real head scratcher to me, I don't understand where this notion comes from. Maybe I missed something?

[SoulGlo]

36. F word

Feminism has become the "f word", vilified by right wingers who have spun the definition of it, using some of the more "extreme" ideas out of context. They have much to gain out of discrediting feminists, and it's obviously working. I think so many women preface their feminist leaning arguments with those phrases because it is less threatening to people. It's a shame really.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Say it loud and say it proud

I'm a feminist, a humanist, a liberal. I'll fight for the causes I believe in. In a "traditional woman's role"--nursing, the only ones frightened--or repelled-- by the word seem to be women my own age or older (40's and up)

The younger ones who evidently never hear someone proudly declare themselves feminist are delighted with my insights, especially when it comes to certain socially ingrained expectations of the female. They are young, strong, and are NOT going to be steamrolled. They find the characterization of college girls as "girls gone wild" disgusting. They want better for their daughters and sons. All they need is an open door for conversation, and I find myself surrounded by feminists in all but name. They haven't been encouraged to use the word. To own it.
They even understand the word "patriarchy" and many of it's implications.
Many of them are attractive young women, educated, wary in this world as all women are because it's NOT SAFE to be female.. Or, for those feeling argumentative, should I say it's LESS safe for the female. Much less safe.

Thank God I know feminists my own age and older, or I would start to think that the fight for women's rights, which include BASIC human rights-- is for the young. I know it's for the ones with courage.

Do they shave their armpits? I assume so. Do I ask? Hell no. Do I care? No.
I live in a socially liberal city. Do I see feminists running around with hairy armpits to make a statement? No. Women who shave or don't are making a personal choice that is frankly, none of my business. I don't like a lot of makeup on women either, but that, too isn't my business. Would I care if someone shaved their armpits or not or wore make up if we're marching together for the right to choose or to end violence against women? No.
Have I heard of a bra burning since the '70's? No. (anybody remember the conservative uproar when it came to light that Gloria Steiman frosted her hair?) Feminist come in all shapes and sizes and levels of the current beauty standard. Some wear make up some don't. Some are construction workers, some are nurses.
Someone needs to explain how the fuck something out of the 1970's, survived to represent "feminist" and more ever, how the fuck a democratic, progressive, liberal, whatever you want to call it message board STILL buys into it?
Anyone?
Especially When the the issues that feminists fought for, (for the last couple of centuries yet) are being rolled back as we speak, and no, it's not "just" about abortion.

Damn straight I'm a feminist.

[Odin2005]

39. RW propaganda has made "feminist" and "radical feminist" the...

...same in the eyes of the average person. The sterotypes most people have of feminists is "man-hater" and "lesbians." The same swift-boating treatment happened to "Enviromentalism."

[benevolent dictator]

40. I've always wanted to get one of those This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

T-shirts, but then again, people would just say, "duh, they look like angry lesbians who don't shave."

I don't understand why people won't admit to being feminist. It boggles my mind. I'm in the feminist group here on campus, and if I had a dollar for every dumbass who asked, "well, like... they're 'equality feminists'... right? Not like... separatists feminists..." I could probably pay my tuition.

The Co-Chair of the group said she was going to start asking people if they were feminists or not, whenever they asked her to join a group or do this or do that. I actually started asking people if they would call themselves feminists and I was shocked at how many people said things like, "Uh...well...I support women's rights.... and I support LGBT rights.... and I'm a liberal.... but, I wouldn't say I'm a feminist, no."

[Lerkfish]

42. I consider myself a male feminist.

that having been said, I think its possible to have extreme members of ANY group. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the group agenda, just that some will be extreme in their pursuit of it.

As an example, I attended a class while an RA in the dorm on rape counseling. I had had two guys on my floor whose girlfriends had been raped and it raised a red flag that I was uneducated on how to counsel them or their girlfriends.
So, anyways, I attended the class. There were two men, including me, and the rest of the class were women. That was no big deal. The speaker glared at us when she came in and said "what the hell are you doing here?" I explained why I was there (though no woman had to justify their presence) The class started as a rant on how society subtly and not so subtly encourages rape (which was valid and informative) to how all men are rapists. No, not potential rapists, actual rapists, they just haven't been caught yet. Shocked by this, I raised my hand to ask a few questions but she turned the rest of the class as an opportunity to point all her angst at me and the other guy. Even the women in the class started arguing against the premise that all men are rapists, but she refused to let anyone talk who didn't buy into that completely.

SO, instead of teaching us how to COUNSEL victims of rape, which would have been highly useful for all the RAs there, and the reason I was there, the class was (I think) perhaps a cathartic excercise to release anger against men. Anger justified in many cases, but not what the class was supposed to be about.

I would consider her an extremist, even though I generally agreed with her analysis of society and its attitude towards rape.

[bloom]

46. Some people

think I'm an extremist. That's ok - they can think that. :)


I don't think that all men are rapists - but I think that many men are in denial - partly guessing from some of their comments - here and elsewhere.

I saw this today - linked from a blog. It's a good example of how disconnected people can be.

http://webits3.appstate.edu/apples/life/Rape/Date_Rapist.htm



I appreciate your participation on many of those contentious threads. :hi:

[Recursion]

44. *shrug*

Maybe we tried and we failed? I can't tell you how many women I know who say "well, I mean, I'm not a feminist, but..." ("feminist" always said with disgust).

If the word itself is what is throwing people, let's dump it. If we could reverse or at least slow the terrifying wave of anti-feminism we're going through by using another name, by all means let's do it. OTOH, if what people (even women) object to is not the name but the idea of men and women having identical societal roles (and let's not fool ourselves: that rejection is getting more and more explicit), then maybe we should just create an United Coastal States of America and secede from flyover country. I'm willing to fight for a woman's liberty and equality, but I can't force her to take them if she doesn't want to.

[liontamer]

45. that reminds me of a line from Orgazmo"I don't mean to sound gay or nothin

... but I'd really like to make love to you"

Feminism has been portrayed in a very particular fashion. a lot of people are not big thinkers. They believe in women's equality but they can't reconcile their beliefs as being quintessential feminism. Thus they make a disclaimer that essentially means " I don't prescribe with certain views that I've heard attributed to feminism, but I think it's wrong to treat women as second class citizens"

[Sisaruus]

47. I am a professional feminist

I've had the great fortune of being employed for women's and girl's organizations most of my professional life so that's how I tend to introduce myself.

[struggle4progress]

50. I'm not a woman, but ... the hell with that "I'm not a feminist" line

[Proud_Feminist4Peace]

52. My SN should say it all.....

I agree with you! I am sick and tired of womyn saying that
shit. I am damn proud of being feminist and if the haters have
a problem with that, well they can go fuck themselves with a
blunt object. I am married but my husband understands that
there is no way in hell am I going to barefoot and pregnant in
the damn kitchen. He calls himself an "male"
feminist and even took some womyn studies in school.:) And
when the Repukes and their ilk say that womyn have enough
rights that to me says "Shut the up and go back in the
kitchen" I'm sorry for going off, me being so new here
but I just so glad that DU has a place for me to vent my
anger. Feminists are not haters, they are lovers of all
mankind. Thank you for letting me speak me mind.

[lukasahero]

53. Welcome to DU

Glad you found us. :hi:

[Proud_Feminist4Peace]

54. TY

Glad to be found!!! This place seems really nice, right up my alley!

[Jeffery]

55. I've never figured it out

I've never figured out what a "feminist" actually is in practice, because it's used in so many ways and can mean so many things. I do know what an egalitarian is, though, and that's what I would profess to be. Sometimes certain branches of "feminism" come into conflict with egalitarianism, it seems, just as Civil Rights (capital C, capital R) sometimes comes into conflict with civil rights in and of themselves.

[omega minimo]

56. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people

:toast: Welcome to DU :hi:

[Nobody]

57. I proudly claim the Feminist descriptor

My stock answer to the question Why do you hate men and want to oppress them? is this:

You must have me mixed up with the female supremacists.

[BoneDaddy]

58. I am a feminist

I just think, like anything, there is an extreme ideological wing on feminism that makes the same mistake as patriarchy. They demonize men and all things masculine and deify women/the feminine, which is ridiculous.

As long as the "battle of the sexes" means a victor of one over the other instead of co-creativity and cooperation, it will fail. Like in any movement, those who are disenfranchised need help and support from the larger culture. Blaming ALL men for the patriarchal system we are in is not only futile, it actually pushes back the movement's success and alienates the men who truly want to help.

[Morgana LaFey]

59. Yah, it's only been going on for 40 years now

I'm sick of it too.

However, once upon a time I was the person saying it. Then I bought a book and got a bunch more from the library. O.M.G. What a raving lib feminist I became pretty much overnight. RAVING, angry feminist. And I'm still angry.

My point: women who say this don't understand feminism. Once they do, more likely than not (except perhaps for fundamentlist women), they'll find out that they're actually proud feminists themselves.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. What has?

Feminism has been around for well over 100 years, and both women and men have been claiming not to be feminists for just as long. What happened 40 years ago?

[Madspirit]

65. One Person's Extremist

**Both groups had/have well-publicized extremist elements that gave/give them a bad name.**


I am a feminist and damned proud of it. I'm also old. I was at the very first NOW convention ever. That aside, I find what you say somewhat offensive. What the hell is an extremist. If you don't "get" why some women are...even seperatists...and definitely pissed off, then you don't "get" the hell women go through and have gone through.

The "extremists" are the ones all women should thank. The ones really really willing to lay it all on the line. The ones who will get in people's faces. The ones who challenge all the crap women put up with and the ones who are reviled because they really do scare The Big Pigs. ...and they have suffered for this fight. I don't apologize for them. I bow to them.

Young women, sitting on the sidelines, screwing whomever they wish, having abortions available and birth control available and not being judged because they do screw whomever they wish and having spiked hair and good college and tattoos and listening to Lauper and Just Having a Great Time and women being able not just be Mrs. Cleaver or Mrs. Reed or....and then they turn around and say..."I'm not really a feminist..." *spitting on ground now* They should be bowing to Hard-Line Feminists. This is an issue for which there is NO compromise. You can't "kinda" be equal. THAT'S not acceptable.
Lee

[Katherine Brengle]

66. That was my entire point.

Don't know how I could have been any clearer about that.

[cap]

68. but I want all the rights that feminists have fought for...

I want the equal pay, the chance for promotion, the ability to walk down the street without getting a wolf whistle, the leave for family matters, the ability to reenter the workforce after child bearing...


but I just dont want to own up to it.