***Tar Baby Doll Bitch Madonna Whore***

[omega minimo]

Here is a brilliant, beautiful piece by fishwax in response to SOME DU rationalizations on Bushco’s new Press Secretary Snowjob’s use of “don’t wanna hug the tar baby.”

What’s especially interesting in this eloquent OP is that it echoes the challenges many here have commented on regarding genderized slurs-- and the various ways they are understood on DU.

He writes:

“Some of the posters in the various Tony Snow/Tar Baby threads have taken it upon themselves to explain--or defend, sometimes in rather condescending terms--the “real” meaning of the phrase “tar baby.” The assumption of these posts seems to be that the “legitimate” explanation of the term renders null any possible offense that might be taken.”

The OP lucidly identifies the core of the dilemma about (potentially objectionable) language use. This thread may interest WR&I because we have tried to illustrate the principle with the similarities between racial slurs and/or gender-based slurs. The ideas are crafted here beautifully. fishwax's comments could be applied word for word to any sort of bigotry-infused language. (I’m highlighting some key lines with **).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1217463

tar baby, sambo, and "hanging" portraits
 
fishwax (1000+ posts)  Wed May-17-06 01:21 PM Original message

tar baby, sambo, and "hanging" portraits

Some of the posters in the various Tony Snow/Tar Baby threads have taken it upon themselves to explain--or defend, sometimes in rather condescending terms--the “real” meaning of the phrase “tar baby.” *The assumption of these posts seems to be that the “legitimate” explanation of the term renders null any possible offense that might be taken.*
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But even leaving aside the complications of the Uncle Remus version of “tar baby,” the very notion that this “legitimate” explanation trumps the offensive associations of the phrase is absurd. *Of course, it’s not uncommon in our culture that “white” experience (in this case, experiencing “tar baby” as part of an endearing piece of our literary culture delivered from the mouth of an unthreatening black male) is assumed to offer an accurate reading, while the minority experience (in this case, experiencing “tar baby” as a racial slur delivered from the mouth of a threatening entity) is dismissed as a misreading of events.* But the fact that its common doesn’t make it right.
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I think one of the chief flaws of the “outrage at the outrage” in this case is that it relies on a belief that context obliterates connotation. People have appealed to Tony’s context of use as if it were 100 percent conclusive, the final word. But context is most useful for determining denotative meaning. *Connotative associations extend beyond the specific topical context of the conversation.*
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*Words and phrases carry connotations that extend beyond the context of their use, and understanding that is an essential tool in the effective use of language.* Consider the example of gw, who when presented with a portrait of Martin Luther King by Coretta Scott King said: “thanks for this beautiful portrait; I can’t wait to hang it.”

[Why Syzygy]

1. K? Know what?

I gave up the use of tarbaby years ago, in favor of the much more metropolitan "sticky wicket".

But you guys have almost convinced me that I need to reintroduce "tar baby" into my vernacular again.

Why is that? Why is this such a big deal? Who do you own?

Jeesis fricker.

edit: and btw.. I have thought of what it might be like to be another skin color. But I can't actually expeirence that, can I? I'm stuck with the one I've got. So, please, do not anyone also stuck with their current skin color come crying to me, because I'm in the same situation. Ditto on gender. Live with it. Love it. Let's help each other do that. Then this bs doesn' matter.

[omega minimo]

2. "When in the company of deluded people, keep your own counsel." Buddha

[Berry Cool]

3. You know what? I'm never going to "hang" a picture again.

Because, you know, someone might conclude that I wanted to "hang" the person depicted in it. So from now on, no "hanging" pictures in my house. I merely "suspend them from nails."

Oh, no, wait, THAT will upset all the Christians who will think I am daring to comparing the people in my pictures to JESUS...and in a tasteless way, too!

:shrug: How on earth am I gonna solve this problem????

[lukasahero]

4. "How on earth am I gonna solve this problem????"

Perhaps you could listen to the people who feel offended at the implications and learn to respect their feelings? Just a thought...

[omega minimo]

5. That one is so

:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:




it's either a parody of someone who doesn't get it by someone who does or......................



LH, you use two big words: "listen" and "respect" :hi:

[omega minimo]

6. btw this is reposted here for those with "connotative associations"

from many previous attempts to make similar points re: gender and help people "get it" with comparisons to race. The phrases fishwax uses could be applied directly.

The idea was to share with cool people here, not to argue with those who want to miss the point. Strange that in both threads, there is no attempt to discuss by those with conflicting viewpoints-- just the "condescencion" the OP mentioned and a strong whiff of belligerence (no real surprise there).

The rampant equation we have run up against of "respectful language" = "word Nazis" or "threatens Freedom of Speech" or "PC sucks" is tiresome and there's no point in skirmishes with the hostile. At some point in life people learn to listen and consider and respect-- or not. "Even on DU."

fishwax graciously welcomed the use of the OP in the this forum.

*The assumption of these posts seems to be that the “legitimate” explanation of the term renders null any possible offense that might be taken.*
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*Of course, it’s not uncommon in our culture that “white” experience is assumed to offer an accurate reading, while the minority experience is dismissed as a misreading of events. But the fact that its common doesn’t make it right.*
<>
*Connotative associations extend beyond the specific topical context of the conversation.*
<>
*Words and phrases carry connotations that extend beyond the context of their use, and understanding that is an essential tool in the effective use of language.*

[bloom]

7. When I saw those threads

sexist remarks being defended is what came to my mind, also. I hope this doesn't get to being a trend. People using (and others defending) racist and sexist language - more than before.


What I posted in the noted thread:

It seems that the arguments against offending people - are based on the assumption that "tar baby" has never been a racial slur. As if people are just making that up and could make it up against any word. Which is quite ridiculous.

I am willing to believe people have used it as a racial slur and that it has been done so commonly that many people can see the offense in it.

I think if people are interested in being knowledgeable and reasonable people - they will listen to the experience of others.


There are many words that have been used as sexist slurs that people want to absorb into the common lexicon and use them in another context as if that nullifies the former context. It doesn't. The negativity implied in the former context (like of words like bitch, or whore any number of things like that) is what gives the words the power that they have. I think it reinforces the negativity of the former context at the same time that the words are used in the new context.