"...don't rape her"

[bloom]

(cross-posted in the lounge - though I don't expect it to be active very long there - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5812835)

A lot has been said about how to prevent rape. Women should learn self-defense. Women should lock themselves in their houses after dark. Women shouldn't have long hair and women shouldn't wear short skirts. Women shouldn't leave drinks unattended. Hell, they shouldn't dare to get drunk at all. Instead of that bullshit, how about:

If a woman is drunk, don't rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her.
If a woman is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don't rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don't rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don't rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don't rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her.
If your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and that he's not your friend.
If your "friend" tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs and it's your turn, don't rape her, call the police and tell the guy he's a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it's not okay to rape someone.
Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x.
Don't imply that it's in any way her fault.
Don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl.
Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.
If you agree, re-post it. It's that important.
-Author unknown.
http://wildcherrygal.livejournal.com/

[TAPat]

1. Seems so simple, doesn't it?

Thanks for this. Rec'd!

[E.R. Strooley]

26. Very simple!

Too bad so many find it hard to remember!

[LilyLibber]

2. Thank you for this.

Hell yes, it's that important.

Recommended.

[Caoimhe]

3. Thanks! Very important list there

We all should share it with everyone we know, men AND women.

[Straight Shooter]

4. Excellent points made, but I like this one best:

Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.

:thumbsup:

[sui generis]

5. at the risk of starting a war

this seems to be in conflict to some of the above:

"Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself."

Of course before the weirdos who think I'm condoning rape by disagreeing on some of the above chime in, if you view some humans as predators, then don't put yourself in the position of being prey.

You don't send your children to a known child predator for babysitting, why would you insist that some is entirely blameless for endangering herself (or himself)?

For the most part, for the record, I do agree though. There are some people who need the prod of a second conscience, of an example, of a voice of reason to remind them of their humanity.

Overall though; disappointed in the throw of the list.

[donsu]

6. good list - it's way past time for the world of men to control themselves

and it's way past time for men to equally share control of power with women

[IndyOp]

7. My point: Unless she raped herself, it is not her fault.

I teach on a Big 10 campus and I've discussed sexual violence with my IntroPsych classes.

Female students are particularly likely to hear of someone else being raped and decide that she must've done something to deserve it -- we discuss this self-defense mechanism -> "blaming the victim".

My bottom line: Unless she raped herself, it is not her fault.

:(

[The Count]

8. Even Borat got these by now...

But some of his interviewees were not quite so sure.

[enough]

9. In my highschool health classes (early 1960's) we were specifically taught

that boys can't control themselves. At a certain point there is no turning back. It is the girl's responsibility to keep this from happening. This was the official curriculum at a public school, and it was drummed into us over and over, year after year. These classes were gender-segregated. I have no idea what the boys were being taught.

We were also taught the following: "Men don't like shopworn goods."


Looking back at all that, it sounds like the Taliban.

[Heywood J]

16. Dear Lord.

You're shitting us, right?

[Warpy]

22. Nope, I had the same stupid classes, same stupid rant

and absolutely NOTHING about barrier methods of birth control, nothing about the mechanics of pregnancy, nothing about disease. Just a lot of Puritan garbage about how we were the GATEKEEPERS and were supposed to make males who outweighed us behave themselves under all conditions.

No wonder I said to hell with it and didn't bother dating until I got to college.

[Nobody]

23. What gets me about this idiocy....

is that the woman is expected to stay virgins, to refuse all sexual contact. If she's supposed to be the gatekeeper, how about some combat training? Oh no, that just wouldn't be ladylike. We will make it your responsibility to head off all attackers, and vilify you if they succeed, but no WAY can we even consider giving you the skills to defend yourself.

By the way, I add this to the original poster's list:

If she said yes to you once, you need another yes; don't rape her.

If she said yes to you several times, you still need another yes; don't rape her.

Sex is not Microsoft Computer Applications: By sleeping with this man, the woman has thereby consented to have sex whenever, wherever, and however the man desires. This yes can never be revoked, even if the relationship is dissolved. Once a yes is granted, that yes holds in perpetuity. Furthermore, the Brotherhood of Man (BOM) Contract states that any time a woman says yes to any man, the BOM clause kicks in and that yes irrevocably applies to any man who wishes it.

The above paragraph is facetious, but rape trials seem to be run along those lines.

[Iris]

24. hey - sounds like abstinence only education!

And it's only 45 years later!

[IronLionZion]

10. Sounds good, but if rapists were sensible and listened to reason,

they wouldn't be rapists.

The only line I don't agree with it is: "Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape." I sure as hell don't want my women friends or anyone else to get raped.

I went to a university that had 15,000 people and a common phrase on t-shirts and stuff they handed out was "92% of our students stop when his partner says no". I read that and thought to myself there are 1200 rapists on campus.

Anyway, people need to read this so K+R

[bloom]

12. It's not just all about the rapist.

It's about the culture of rape - where women are blamed.

And it's about women who blame themselves.

If there were not so many god-awful messages suggesting that the woman should have done something instead of the message that the criminal should NOT have done something - as it is with every other crime - that would be a good thing for everybody.

[lukasahero]

15. The only way to guarantee that your "women friends" don't get raped

is to stop men from raping. Following all "the rules" will not guarantee their safety and will only perpetuate their guilt if it happens to them.

I think the distinction is very subtle but truly needs to be heard and understood. Yes, there are things women can do that may possibly lessen their chance of being raped but there is nothing they can do to prevent it entirely.

Grandmothers are raped. Wives are raped by their husbands. College women are raped by men they consider "friends". Little girls are raped by their fathers, uncles, brothers.

What should these women do to make themselves safe? How do you comfort them when it happens to them if they believe there really was something they could do to prevent it?

It's a fine line between teaching awareness suggesting that if they do all these things, women will be safe. There is no guarantee of that.

[RobertSeattle]

11. It's sad that the Bible really has nothing to say about rape

It practically condones it.

Deuteronomy 22: 28-29
28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. 29 Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 25: 11-12

11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity

[IronLionZion]

13. ...

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her,"

(Deuteronomy 22:25-28)

http://www.carm.org/questions/rape.htm



I don't care what the Bible says about much of anything since it has been written and re-written and translated and had large tracts deleted an nobody knows who wrote it for sure. God is against rape. Rapists will burn in hell with the rest of the evil people. I don't need a book to tell me that. I know it in my heart.

[sui generis]

14. I guess I'm being a pluralist

Here are my assumptions.

1. Some people, mostly those with a conscience, are influencible by peers; might benefit from this cognitive therapy approach and spare both a potential victim and themselves from stupidity.
2. Some people will take advantage of any situation that benefits them, regardless of our wishes for a better world.
3. Everybody has the right to expect other people to not harm them under any circumstance
4. Everybody has the chance to do no harm

But the world is not black and white, blame and innocence, polar attributes of anything.

It is not the victim's fault that they were taken advantage of, clearly

AND

at the exact same time it is the victim's responsibility to themselves to be aware, to not be stupid or naive in the real world where people don't read numerated lists and consider the ethical nuances of choice and the loss of it. While we know drunk drivers kill, and we condemn that, we also know better than to walk barefoot down the highway. While we know that alcoholics shouldn't drink on their own strength of character we also know better than to put a bottle in front of them and walk away.

Two things that are true at the same time.

Alcoholics exist. Rapists Exist. Predators exist. Not every human is created equal. If some people are born with a cleft palate you can be sure others are born with a cleft brain, a much more difficult problem to diagnose and fix. Those people do not respond to cognitive calls to conscience, and so what is your responsibility in that case? We're far far past "blame" games at this point.

Don't climb over the fence at the zoo. Oh, they'll kill the lion that eats you, they'll punish it for eating a human. But don't pass out drunk anywhere, man or woman. Do be safe. Always!


(to recovering alkies, sorry to include you in that passage - it was an example, not a comparison)

[omega minimo]

17. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. if a boy is a page don't rape him either... sorry but i couldn't resist...

i know it's a valid topic on an important issue but im giddy as hell tonight

[barbtries]

20. you make an

excellent point. thank you

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. This strikes me as rather foolish, albeit possibly well-intentioned.

"Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape."

That's simply stupid.


"Don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x."

Agreed - doing so is unbelievably insensitive - but just because one shouldn't say something to someone doesn't necessarily mean it isn't sometimes true, although in most cases x will be something it would not be possible to predict beforehand.


"Don't imply that it's in any way her fault."

Absolutely. This is the line that cannot be repeated often enough. The post would have been far, far stronger if it had consisted of only this line. Just because I wouldn't have been hit by the meteorite if I hadn't chosen to stand in that particular place at that particular time doesn't mean that it's my own fault that I was hit by it.

But if meteorite-fall is to some degree predictable, then advising people where they're likely to land isn't immoral, it's only good sense.

[noamnety]

25. Looking at this again now that it's been bumped

I feel overwhelmingly sad that a post saying not to rape us even had to be made, and that so many of us felt the need to vote it up. That so many of us felt like that message isn't being heard - that we feel like men don't KNOW not to rape women, I don't know. It makes me feel like crying, suddenly.