The Politics of Body Hair

[LostinVA]

I would like to have a reasonable discussion of a topic that often becomes rather heated on DU: women shaving/waxing some or all of their pubic hair. And yes, this is a serious thread. I was talking with some friends about this recently, and wanted to see what women on this forum TRULY think about it.

I would like the discussion to focus on women. Not on teenagers, but on adult women who choose to wax or shave.

I know many people blame this on the prevalence in porn of shaved vulvas. I personally reject this as the reason, although I will agree that particular men and women DO shave because of porn. But, I believe it’s a safe bet to say that’s a small minority. I will also say that I don’t agree with one partner forcing another to do this for such a reason. People in a committed, respectful relationship should never force anything onto their partners.

I also do not think pubic hair is “dirty,” etc. I do, however, think it IS vestigial, like your appendix, etc.

I also have heard people say it’s more “natural” to not shave. Okay, I have zero problems with this being someone’s personal choice, although I reject that reasoning for myself. I personally prefer the look and feel of certain areas being clean shaven, and it ahs nothing to do with porn, phallocentric attitudes in society and advertising, or the patriarchy. It is my personal choice. I do, however, believe that NOTHING we do to ourselves is technically natural – from wearing clothes, to cutting our hair, etc.

Per Wikipedia:

“Waxing of the genital areas has been prevalent in many societies around the world for centuries, in Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt but especially in arid or desert, predominantly Muslim and Arab countries. Arab, Turkish, and Persian women as well as women from the Albanian culture and Mediterranean regions have for centuries been waxing in the genital areas. The waxes used were often sugar-based and made with lemon; however present variations include oils and scents to lessen the discomfort. The reasons for genital waxing in these regions have not necessarily been for cosmetic reasons throughout history, as it is in the case of North and South America as well as Europe, but instead these cultures mentioned above have generally practiced waxing for centuries more for reasons of personal hygiene and/or religion. As a result, in many of these cultures, body hair of any sort on women is considered socially unacceptable. However, waxing the genital area completely is relatively new to western cultures, developing mostly in the 20th century. In the United States, for example, the habit of waxing or even shaving the pubic area did not become common place until the late 1990s. However, as of 2006, this habit has become popular with the recent generation of American women.

The wax originated in Brazil for women wanting to wear the then-new thong bikinis, which was not widely popular inside the United States at the time. Waxing gained in popularity through the 1990s, with several celebrities, such as Paula Yates and Gwyneth Paltrow, extolling its virtues. In 1999 it shot to international prominence with the airing of a Sex and The City episode, where one of the characters is the unsuspecting victim of a Brazilian wax and finds the experience surprisingly pleasant.”

So, I kinda reject the reasoning that porn “forces” most women to shave. I also believe that the majority of men (and women) are NOT tuned on by prepubescent girls. They want to be in bed with women, not kids. I think most men are pigs, but not skeeves or pedophiles. And, I know that I – along with many friends – were shaving or trimming well before the advent of ubiquitous internet porn flashing shaven vulvas.

*****************************************************************

Having started the thread, I think it’s only fair to fully give my position on genital shaving: I’m a lesbian, and for years have been either partially or fully shaven. My reasons for doing this are:

* I find it more hygienic
* It makes sex more enjoyable; absence of hair allows MUCH more sensation, it makes oral sex easier and better, and it’s just plain sexier, imo. A woman’s body is very, very sexy, and is nothing to hide. I personally like being able to see my partner’s body changing.
* Frankly, I like the way it feels and looks.
* I run a lot, and being shaven stops painful ingrown hairs, etc., that nothing else stops, even BodyGlide or other sports anti-friction sticks.

I want to finish by saying this: I am not a pedophile, and neither is my GF. Neither of us have any desire to watch child porn. I know I’m not in bed with a 12-year-old, and so does she.

Thanks for reading the entire post. I’m looking forward to seeing everyone’s posts and reading other opinions!


on edit: I also think that the SERIOUS views of male DUers would be interesting.

[LeftyMom]

1. Agreed.

I shave.

Doing so does not make me look like a pre-pubescent, or appeal to those who find pre-pubescents sexually attractive, as I have hips, an ass and (fortunately very feint) stretch marks. It does however keep me from feeling sweaty or sticky, make for better oral and keep me from looking like an earlier hominid. I never have to worry about errant pubes escaping my bathing suit in the summer.

Most importantly, I prefer how I look shaved, and I decided that on my own several years before I ever saw a naked woman depicted in porn, with or without pubic hair.

[LostinVA]

2. Interesting response -- thanks!

Exactly how I feel, Leftymom.

[noamnety]

52. "keep me from looking like an earlier hominid"

It's one thing to personally prefer how you feel shaved or unshaved; it's quite another to equate how women naturally look to being subhuman. THAT is not a feminist outlook.

[LeftyMom]

76. Hey, I'm mostly Italian. Most women don't naturally look a thing like me (and razor companies weep)

I'm casper white and have thick, almost black body hair. I'm not talking about how women generally look naked, as I don't generally look at women naked and wouldn't much know, pube-wise.

I, on the other hand, feel that I look unattractive with pubic hair/leg hair/armpit hair/unmanaged eyebrows and I can certainly mock my own body hair if I feel like it.

[noamnety]

77. So just pale-skinned dark haired women look subhuman?

unless they shave, of course.

You aren't merely mocking yourself with a statement like that. You're promoting/spreading a view that certain women need to shave in order to look human.

I don't know why you would post that in a women's rights forum.

[LeftyMom]

78. No. I'm posting what I think of how I look and how it effects my grooming habits.

Which is addressing the OP's questions.

I'm not taking out "pubes are nasty" ads in Seventeen, I'm not suggesting any other DUer or anybody else alter their grooming routine, I'm just saying how I feel about my own body. Last I checked, I am entitled to my own opinion of my looks, absent cultural baggage, political litmus tests and other people nosing in.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. Precisely.

:thumbsup:

[noamnety]

82. Here's how I see it.

If I saw someone in a forum designed to promote racial equality stating that they straighten their hair so they don't look "like an earlier hominid" I would think they were setting racial equality back, not working to advance anyone's rights. I would question why they were in such a forum. And I would think they had some issues of racism to deal with, even if they were talking about themselves.

I'm suspicious of anyone who alters their body in some way for aesthetic reasons without being able to recognize and acknowledge that society has shaped their views on aesthetics. When it comes to beauty standards, I don't believe any of us are absent of cultural baggage. You can acknowledge the baggage and rebel against it, or consciously decide to conform, or pretend it doesn't exist, but no matter which way you go, that baggage is there. Beauty standards in large part - to include body hair - are about power and race and class.

Stan Goff's got a good discussion of that about halfway down his essay here (excuse my fixing his typos, which he seems to stubbornly embrace :)):

In these commercials as they were originally aired, a woman was shown in a dreamlike, romantic fantasy — for example, parachuting slowly and gracefully from the heavans. The male voiceover then described the woman in soft, lush terms: “If I believed in angels, I’d say that’s what she was — an angel, dropped from the sky like an answer to a prayer, with eyes as brown as bark.” (Signficant pause) “No… I don’t think so.” (At this point the tape would be rewound to return us to:) “With eyes as violet as the colors of a child’s imagination.” The commercial concludes: “Durasoft colored contact lenses. Get brown eyes a second look.”

The question posed by Phil Donahue: Is this ad racist? Donahue clearly thought there was controversy to be stirred up here, for he shocked his audience full of women of color and white women to discuss the implications of the ad. But Donahue was apparently living in a different decade from most of his audience, who repeatedly declared that there was nothing “wrong” with the ad, and everything “wrong” with any inclinations to “make it a political question.”

Not only did the audience then mount a “what’s the fuss about” defense of the ad; Bordo’s students did, too.

There was no capacity to see the pattern that connects the norms of femininity, the devaluation of women as they are (and of people with brown eyes), the grotesque consumer objectification of women implicit in the verbiage of the male voiceover, the construction of female inadequacy, the identifcation of women’s value with their appearance, womens’ subordination within a male-dominated society… nothing. There was, in short, an utter failure of active-pattern-recognition; and the remarks that both Donahue and Bordo heard were predictable enough to have appeared from a playbook. But these responses were more than just ignorance of the patterns of social power that positively bristled from this ad; there was almost a disciplined hostility to “politicizing” the ad… that is, hostility to calling attention to those patterns."

http://www.insurgentamerican.net/analysis/an-elaborate-hypothesis/

Note: I am specifically speaking of visual aesthetics here, not shaving because of ingrown hairs, etc.

[LeftyMom]

83. But my opinion about my pubes effects, at most, two people

I'm not setting back womankind in saying that I dislike them and think that ON ME, because I have dark, coarse and unfortunately rather plentiful hair, they rather look like something out of the primatology section of my anthro text. That's just my personal opinion and hardly something I'd be discussing with most people or flashing at strangers, as I said it effects a grand total of two people. Well three if you count making life a little easier for my gyno once a year.

If it'd said the same thing about taming my eyebrows, nobody'd worry that I was setting womankind back in doing so. And people actually SEE that.

[noamnety]

92. I disagree with several points

First, your subject line.

Whether or not you shave affects two people. Your opinion, if kept to yourself, affects two people - yourself, and the other person affected by your shaving decisions that result from your opinion.

Once you state publicly (on the internet or otherwise) that, in your view, coarse dark hair on women's bodies makes them look like something from the "primatology section of my anthro text", you've now spread that opinion to others, and it does affect more than yourself. Even if you add the disclaimer that ON YOU coarse dark hair makes you look subhuman, what you're really getting at, deep down here, is that you believe the ethnic trait of having pale skin and coarse dark hair is less advanced than the ethnic trait of having fine hair that matches your skin tone. So now it is a race issue, and not just a gender issue.

Second, as far as the eyebrows go, you are wrong there - if you said you were "taming" your eyebrows because your ethnic characteristics are unattractive, I would indeed have the same reaction.

I'm surprised at your perception that you are only talking about yourself when you say your coarse dark hair (a result of your ethnicity!) makes you look like a primate. When you think about that critically (as in critical thought, not critical as negative), you honestly can't see any connection with cultural baggage at all?

Likewise, I'm surprised that you can't see that sending out a message that _________ is unattractive and makes "me" look subhuman would affect other people's opinions, in particular people who share the ethnic characteristic you've just described as being unattractive (in yourself).

[LeftyMom]

94. I'm just saying it's a trait I don't care for.

I'm no more denigrating my heritage than I'd be engaging in racial superiority arguments if I mentioned that Italian men tend to have pretty eyes. Certainly I'm not saying that women of Italian extraction are unattractive or should feel bad about their bodies, nor do I think my offhand comment in a dusty corner of the internet has any such power over anybody, I'm only saying it's a trait I happen not to care for personally as it manifests on my body.

I mentioned my ethnicity only to illustrate that there's a combination of very fair skin and very dark thick hair involved, which makes body hair much more obvious on me than it would be on somebody with a less dramatic difference between hair and skin tone. My best friend growing up never shaved her legs until she joined the high school swim team. She's of Scandinavian descent, and with a small amount of nearly invisible blond body hair she just never saw the point. If I had her skin tone and baby fine hair, I probably wouldn't bother either. That's what made me think to mention my ethnicity in relation to my pubes. (Good lord, I can't believe someday somebody's going to be looking for something important I said once and instead they're going to find me rambling on about pubic grooming.)

Anyhow, anybody who changed their feelings about their body, their ethnicity or their gender based on the ramblings of some random person on the internets has bigger problems than their attitude toward their pubic hair.

[SemperEadem]

101. she made no correlation to other women--you did

her mind wasn't even there.

Why did you take what she said as a personal attack when she was talking about herself? How did it diminish you or debased your sense of self in such a profound way? How is it a personal affront to you when she wasn't talking ONLY about herself and her own experience?

talk about a leap to the non sequitur.

[noamnety]

104. The thread is about the POLITICS of body hair

and is posted in a women's rights forum. If a person wants to talk about what they personally prefer, without connecting it to the political implications of the issue, then perhaps the lounge would be a better spot for that discussion. Likewise, if a person feels critical thought applied to their posts is somehow out of bounds or a "personal attack" - then that might be a sign they aren't actually here to promote women's rights or discuss how the issue relates to women's rights. "I just like how shaved women look" - or "I like how I look shaved" is more of a lounge post, imho.

Here, I assume people want to discuss the broad (no pun intended) implications of those preferences - why they come about, how prevailing trends influence women to conform and whether women feel pressured to alter their bodies when faced with discussion after discussion of how body hair is "gross."

Discussing how we develop our aesthetic preferences - particularly when we equate natural ethnic characteristics of women as being more evolved, or less evolved, is part of what this forum is about.

[SemperEadem]

106. if the mods aren't locking the thread

then there's no harm, no foul.

[Quantess]

117. You can't be serious! Do not say that to her!

I know she was being humorous when she wrote that.

[evlbstrd]

3. My POV (as an alleged male):

It's completely up to the woman.
My ex preferred not to shave or wax, for the most part. She would occassionally, but I never made her do it. I never gave it a thought.
If my next partner (whoever she may be) chooses to defoliate, that's fine, too.

[LostinVA]

4. Also very interesting

I hope more men respond.

Thanks!

[Redneck Socialist]

5. I find it very sexy

Guy here. If a woman wants to shave, great, if not, that's ok too.

[LostinVA]

6. Thanks!

I also find it very sexy.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

7. I always thought the whole idea was weird

and I've been a natural woman. I never had that much of it, though, so it wasn't much as far as feminist or political statements go.

Whatever any adult human being does with his or her own body is simply none of my business and I expect them to return the courtesy.

[LostinVA]

10. I agree about the point it's none of people's business

I, unfortunately, have been told before that I'm not a "real" feminist or lesbian because I do it.

I agree with you!

[SemperEadem]

102. I agree with you

I trim the front and shave the surrounding 'hillsides' because *I* prefer the way it looks and feels. I have tried shaving the whole area, but I can't stand the growing in process--itches too much.

And what's real, you know? I'm told I'm not really black because I talk well and dont' sound black, so there ya go.

Being hirsuit is a wonderful thing. Being clean shaven is a wonderful thing. Being in the middle of the two is a wonderful thing. There is so much wonder out there to be stuck on only one method.

[bliss_eternal]

73. err...

:)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. I agree. I shave for pretty much the same reasons as you, except for the running one.

It's just plain SEXY. I prefer not having hair getting in the way and to be able to actually SEE what's going on.

And as much as I like pornography, at least for myself, I find the notion of doing it to imitate a porn actress absolutely laughable.

[Quantess]

111. Haruka3_2000 I think you're the coolest!

And..I absolutely agree with you, about hair getting in the way!
I'm so relieved that someone else agrees with me, about "hair getting in the way"!
May I please, cheers to you! :toast:

[liberal N proud]

9. As a man, I prefer less hair in that region

My wife has shaved a couple of times and I loved the look and the way it felt when we had sex. She has done nothing more than trim and shave for swimsuit.
The reason I like it has nothing to do with the prepubescent look, I prefer oral with out the hair.
I have even considered shaving my own pubic hair.

My wife knows my preference but relates to the porn and prefers not too. To me it is a little bit of fantasy, but it is about how it feels. But I must respect her preference, it is her body.

[LostinVA]

11. It's too bad she thinks about the porn thing, but I understand

Thanks for answering!

[seabeyond]

219. my hubby does. works for us. n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

12. I completely agree with you

And this feminist woman definitely loves to get a brazillian now and then :D

But yes, for all practical/hygenic/sexual sensastion reasons, I prefer it :)

:hi:

Great thread :)

[LostinVA]

13. Thanks -- I thought it would be interesting to see people's opinions

I would have put it in GD or the Lounge, but I was afraid some trollies would try to ruin it.

[phaseolus]

14. Perhaps it's just another fashion...??

I'm old enough to have seen certain fashions come and go, and other fashions come along & stay for a long time. As far as reasons for the shaved look, I strongly suspect it's just one of those things that came along. Lots of people seem to just like it; I suspect this look will be around for a long time.

I'm a married hetero male, 46 years old, and I just find it aesthetically pleasing. Unfortunately my wife is quite ... furry, I guess, and she's never reacted well to grooming suggestions. I'm naturally furry from head to toe - except my scalp, unfortunately - but letting hair grow naturally just looks horrible. I shave & trim a lot, because I like smooth shoulders & back & upper arms, and it really makes me look younger not having a thick wool blanket over the rest. But that's just me.

[LostinVA]

17. The "Queer Eye" guys call that "manscaping"

They say it makes you look younger and thinner.

[phaseolus]

34. I'm not at all surprised that I'm not alone

When I was younger, I'd sometimes notice that some older men got a little furry, and thought it looked horrible. As I aged, and saw the same thing happening to my body, I decided to spend a little more time with razors & clippers... and immediately looked ten years younger.

It's bad enough that my knees are starting to ache, and ... all those other reminders that I'm not 18 anymore. So every little bit helps...

[Mojorabbit]

37. I must be off then

because my hubby is getting furry and I adore it.

[whathehell]

226. But does "manscaping" include shaving your balls?...

I don't find hairy balls very attractive, myself!

[Solo_in_MD]

15. When I was teaching college, it was a artictile of faith amongst my

feminist collegaues that shaving anything was a act of submission to the patricarchy and women owning razors was a political issue. Today with presonal choice being taken a little more seriously and more feminism being more broadly interpreted, that seems to have waned.

I have also experienced all sides of the issue, and found my overall prefernce to be a "maintained" look regardless of what it is, though I do prefer at least some to be there.

[Nimrod2005]

16. A man here. I come from one those cultures Wikipedia mentioned where it is expected that women

Shave...Therefore, I have always preferred it. Actually I LOVE it!

Honestly, I am almost sure that I would not live with someone who did not shave. My girlfriends always did, my wife does.

[noamnety]

105. Since you bring up the culture you were raised in

how much do you think your upbringing/culture affected your views on this?

[mongo]

18. As a man who shaves

I would have to agree with everything you said. It has nothing to do with porn, and everything to do with presentation and curtesy for oral sex.

Not that it is a show stopper for me. I wouldn't kick someone out of my bed just because they didn't shave.

(disclaimer: although I have been shaving for years now, I let myself go this winter. Guess I'll have to deal with the black forest this spring.)

And one more note: I wouldn't reccomend waxing for anyone, and for shaving there is a product called coochie cream which is great and reduces rash and bumps. I think it has aloe and other moisturizers in it, but basically it is hair creme rinsh. Using cream rinse to shave really softens the hair and generally makes it an easier experiance than regular shave cream.

And believe me, as a man shaving is a much more delicate and complex procedure than for women.

[LostinVA]

20. Thanks for the specific product recommendation

For real.

And, I may have to disagree with you about who's more delicate to shave....

[mongo]

23. I'm not sure we can even seriously debate that on DU...

without the thread getting locked. :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

25. I know!

[Vektor]

41. !

"Coochie Cream"!!

Ok, totally sophomoric of me, but...

:rofl:

I'm easily amused. That's cute.

[mongo]

50. Oops. I misspelled

[Pharaoh]

19. yes very sexy!

now if I could just find one to play with!

[LostinVA]

21. I would like to keep this serious, not pervy, please

This isn't a sex thread.

Thanks!

[Pharaoh]

22. Did'nt mean to be pervy

[WorldTraveler777]

28. I'm in the minority

I guess I'm in the minority, because my gf and I never, ever shave our pubic hair (although we shave our legs, underarms etc.). We are lesbians.


No disrespect, but when I read some of things straight people say to ... and about ... each other's body hair, it makes me very glad I'm not swimming in that pool.


(for examples check out the comments to this letter in salon about a woman not shaving her legs.


<<<graphic content below>>


Now, as for why my gf and I don't shave below:


We both like the feel of soft, downy hair and the wetness therein during sex. We both love the intoxicating pheromones that are caught and released in a woman's pubic hair.


We both had experiences where we shaved it all off in the past ... and while the 1 day smoothness was fun ... the itchy stubble that grew back was a nightmare.

And to subject our sweet little vagina's to torture-style Brazilian waxes? You've got to be kidding! What fresh hell is that?!


In my "experimenting" days I slept with men and never, ever wanted them to shave below and they never wanted me to shave there, either (and one was a watcher of straight porn...we watched together.)

My favorite boyfriend was French, and he didn't even like it when I shaved under my arms LOL.


People who say it's easier for oral sex may be right ... but I guess I don't need "easier" oral sex in my life. I dig my girlfriend as she is ... and she's super sexy with her sweet little bush.


I've always like older women. And if my gf she shaved, I honestly think she'd seem like a 12-year-old girl to me, and I'm much more interested in a woman who looks mature and who's body is mature.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[LostinVA]

30. Thanks for your POV!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

36. No disrepect but...

I honestly didn't see anything wrong with that salon article. The guy was genuinely concerned about how his wife's body hair was affecting their relationship. Cary replied with some good suggestions about how to make shaving more fun. What's wrong with that? People can't really help what they're attracted to.

After the first time shaving, the itchy stubble isn't really a problem, if you do it right.

As for the 12-year-old girl part, that's quite honestly nuts. I like older women, too. My GF is 18 years older than me. She's smooth-shaven. She does not look like a 12-year-old girl and neither do I. I don't know why someone would think simple pubic hair removal makes someone look 12-years-old. Every other aspect of their bodies is that of an adult woman; why would a lack of hair on one specific part turn them into a child? Afterall, young girls don't really have much leg hair or underarm hair, so wouldn't removal of that cause a woman to look like a child? Absurd, right? It's just as absurd to say that shaved pubic hair makes a woman look like a kid.

[WorldTraveler777]

45. None taken!

I'm sorry if I was unclear about the Salon column.

I should've said that when I read the comments in _response_ to that Salon column (and not the actual column) and the seemingly judgmental and ugly things men and women appeared to say to each other, it made me glad I wasn't into opposite-sex dating anymore.


As for equating hairlessness with the appearance of being a minor: again, I should've been more clear.

I should've said that FOR ME and FOR ME ONLY, it appears that a woman without pubic hair resembles a more child-like, pre-pubescent body, which I don't prefer. I like a more mature body ... with all that entails ... over a young body, freshly ready for reproduction. Just my preference. Your milage may vary.

[LostinVA]

46. Just a curiosity question

I REALLY want to understand what you mean, so can you explain what "... your mileage may vary."

Thanks!

[WorldTraveler777]

49. YMMV

I mean that it may be different for you than it is for me when I say "Your mileage may vary".

(or, that what is my experience may be totally different for you)

[bliss_eternal]

71. Welcme to DU, World Traveler...

:hi:

[Quantess]

112. you....are SO amazing!1!1! (no text)

[MADem]

24. Never mind the politics, there's a religious component to the practice as well

It applies to males as well as females.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=771

According to the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) every adult Muslim, as a part of keeping his/her body clean, should remove the hair on his pubic area and that, which grows under his armpits. This hair may be removed through any method that one feels comfortable with. A person should not let this hair grow for more than (around) forty days, as has been reported in a number of narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh).

The ultimate objective of all Islamic teachings is to cleanse the human body, soul and mind. According to the Qur'an , only those people shall qualify for the everlasting bliss in the hereafter, who try to cleanse themselves during the life of this world. Your question pertains to that part of Islamic teachings that relates with the cleansing of the human body, and therefore requires a cautious attitude on our part.

[InvisibleTouch]

26. It's enough of a pain to keep my legs shaved in the summer...

...and in the winter I only bother if I'm expecting an overnight guest, which isn't so often these days. I don't feel like I'm subjugating myself to any kind of patriarchal heirarchy, either - I just personally don't like to look "hairy." Blech. I don't like excessive body hair on men either, btw. I keep saying that if I come into a windfall this year, I'd have my leg hair lasered and be done with it.

As to shaving more intimate sites, I've never done it, other than some trimming during bikini season. A friend of mine does, and I think it's very cool, surely feels nice, but my lazy thought is, what a pain to maintain it - and if you don't, how uncomfortable/itchy it must be when it grows back!

Interesting topic, though, and a personal choice for everyone. Anyone who says "You're not a real feminist if you shave," is trying to impose their values on you. Isn't feminism about not being oppressed by other people's values?

[LostinVA]

27. "Isn't feminism about not being oppressed by other people's values?"

IMO? Yup!

The itchiness usually goes away after the second or third time you shave... I swear!

I thought it was an interesting topic, too.

[Midlodemocrat]

35. You said it very well.

Unfortunately, it seems that the loudest, shrillest 'feminists' are doing the most damage because of their inability to allow people to make their own choices.

Kind of like the 'feminist' who will tell you which words, thoughts, etc YOU need to find offensive, while never having supported themselves either outside of their parents' home or their spouse's.

I don't think people like that have a lot of credibility. In fact, I think most see that type of individual as a laughing stock.

[benevolent dictator]

124. If feminists had never challenged the status quo

and never tried to make people change their opinions, or at least tried to get them to view their thoughts and behaviors differently, how much would have changed?

Oh, ok, you don't think women should vote? Well alright, I won't try to argue about why we should because everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

[lukasahero]

126. Ta da!

Wump, there it is. You da woman!

I don't know how this isn't perfectly obvious to anyone "arguing" over women's rights. And "that was different" doesn't cut it either.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

142. Midlodemocrat is not saying don't stand up for your rights.

She's a strong advocate for women's and GLBT rights. Midlo is a fighter. What she was referring to is the stance that some feminists take basically saying "if you shave you're not a real feminist," "if you like it when a man does this, then you're not a real feminist," "if you like penetration, you're not a real lesbian," etc. That's the sort of "feminist" babble she's referring to. When in reality, feminism should just be about equality of the sexes.

[benevolent dictator]

146. I'm not about to set

up a list of trivial acts that make one a "feminist" or "not a feminist," but either way I *do* think that it's rather "unfeminist" to refuse to analyze or think about the reasons one does, says, or thinks certain things. If we all just accepted everything as "natural" or "human nature" or whatever bullshit we come up with to justify our socialization, not much would have changed.

It's just "natural" that women stay home with the kids and men go out and work, after all...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. or just as natural that women should have wear the hair on their head long

or wear make up

[InvisibleTouch]

29. Oh, and on an evolutionary note:

Body hair in certain areas (armpits, pubic hair) does have an evolutionary function - it concentrates scent and pheromones. It may look unappealing to some of us, but it exists for a reason - and there's a reason why it first appears at the time of sexual maturity. Just thought I'd throw that in. :)

[Book Lover]

31. On an anatomical note, genital and underarm hair is not vestigial

It traps our pheromones and aids in reducing friction where our limbs rub together (if you are of slight build, or have a trim figure, this is less relevant. I am neither).

Personally: for hygienic reasons, I trim my genital hair a little, but I would never trim it close or shave completely. To me, it makes one look prepubescent; perhaps because I am a parent? Also, I never swim, so swimsuit/bikini lines are a non-issue (and I have a feeling that if for some reason I did start to swim, I still wouldn't trim. What I look like squarely falls into the "Why do I give a shit what you think?" category.)

And to address one final point: I would say that everything we do is natural: we exist as a part of Nature, nu? Shaved or not shaved: both are natural.

[Quantess]

118. Yes hair does TRAP the SCENT!

And no, that's not great! If you want someone to stick their face your place, then, they don't need to have the extra hair-scent-trap in their nose. Trim it! Shave it! Pluck it! Wax it!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

143. whatever. i expect my gf to go down on me. regularly.

and i shave/wax/trim as i feel like.

as does she.

i like the scent of a woman.

[benevolent dictator]

145. I'm gonna have to agree with you. No complaining

about the scent of women here. :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

153. I like the scent of a woman, too. Women have it with or without pubic hair.

So that's not really a valid argument for not shaving. Hair does trap the scent, and if you exercise, it can lead to ingrown hairs.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

154. thats not an argument for shaving or not shaving. but to tell someone they should shave

because it traps the scent is fucking ludicrous.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

187. I'm hetero. (in case it matters).

One man I went out with, was very interested in body odor, and loved "sniffing", especially my armpits. He forbade me to wear deodorant.
However, being a sort-of-normal person who checks their own scent (go ahead and question that statement), I notice that when I shave/trim my pubes, I stink a lot less!

Go ahead and form your own conclusions.

[lbrtbell]

244. But I don't want someone's "face in my place"

I want their face in my FACE and their place in my place. ;)

[sniffa]

32. i try to trim often

and occasionaLLy go for the bare shave, but i'm just Lazy.

[Midlodemocrat]

33. Oh, man. Wait until

well, you know.

This is an interesting topic, but you are going to get flamed in a big way by the frequenters of this forum who think that they are the arbiters of all things feminist.

[LostinVA]

38. Yup, I know

Which will be too bad, because this is tres interesting.

[Midlodemocrat]

40. YOU ARE NOT A REAL FEMINIST

because you shave!


There. How'd I do?

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

42. That was VERY good -- A+

[lukasahero]

63. This was unnecessary.

I don't consider myself an "arbiter of all things feminist" but I do frequent this forum. It's one of my primary forums of interest on DU because I am very interested in women's rights. Perhaps you didn't mean the frequenters of this forum think they are arbiters of all things feminist but if you dissect your sentence structure, it's hard for me to feel otherwise.

I also note that other than commenting that this is an interesting topic, you offer no comment on the topic at hand. Your post seems only interested in making fun of people you don't agree with. I'm sorry to see that.

I shave. I find it more comfortable and like the feel of it. I had never thought of it until my husband asked me if I would be willing to try it. Personally, I have a great sex life with my husband BECAUSE we continue to do things that we know turns the other on - without judgment.

[Midlodemocrat]

98. If you don't consider yourself the arbiter of all things feminist,

then it didn't apply to you.

This forum is hard to read at times because of the my way or the highway attitude of a lot of posters. Feminism is about choices and making choices based on one's own experience and to be lectured by about what makes a feminist or not is a little hard to take.

I'd love to know the real life experience of some of these posters. Because I'll bet the strident tone offered up constantly hasn't served them well in either the corporate world, the academic world or any other area in which people obtain a paycheck.

[omega minimo]

190. "Feminism is about choices" and about having a voice and using it confidently

without being accused of "lecturing" or being "strident" or any other anti-woman, Dittohead cliches.

Speaking one's mind confidently without being accused of being "the arbiter of all things feminist" and attacked by those who lack the confidence to realize, if they don't agree or it doesn't apply to them, as you said, "then it didn't apply to" them.

[mongo]

99. That's an awesome comment!

I have a great sex life with my husband BECAUSE we continue to do things that we know turns the other on - without judgment.


:toast: :yourock:

[lukasahero]

103. grumble grumble

You know, I'm not supposed to be talking to you. I'm still pretty mad at you. ;) Thanks for PM - I owe you a response.

To be clear, this is my opinion regarding how one treats the person they are in a committed relationship with. My opinion on one night stands and flings might not garner me as much favor, I suspect. Suffice it to say, my husband earned this kind of trust from me and I believe that is how it should be.

(But yeah, I'm not the man-hating sexless bitch some people here think I am...)

[LostinVA]

119. I meant to respond to this and forgot

I LOVE your response, especially the part of earning trust in a committed relationship.

(And, even though I'm an evil sexual deviant lesbian, I've never thought you were a man-hating bitch.)

[omega minimo]

189. What a bigoted, divisive, Dittohead thing to say

Also untrue. Where are the flames, where are the "arbiters of all things feminist"?

Unlike another forum that shall remain nameless, whose "frequenters" take it upon themselves to be the "arbiters of all things hijackable" and crash/lock threads, this forum doesn't invite or foster that sort of attitude.

As it turns out, a lot of the accusations that are flung at feminists on DU come straight from the pigmouth and insane mind of Rush Limbaugh.

Hope you learn something from the fact that your assumptions are completely out of line.

[Midlodemocrat]

194. Oh, good. You're here now.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

195. Your ill assumptions proved false

:thumbsdown:

[Vektor]

39. I don't watch porn, but...

ever since I have been old enough to grow hair "down there" I have been "landscaping" it.

I have no idea what the current trends are in pubic style in porn, but I can imagine. For me, I really feel more hygienic, more comfortable with less hair, that's why I also defoliate my underarms and legs. Leg, underarm, and pubic hair is coarse and scratchy, and I don't like it next to my skin. Also, in the case of underarms and the groin, hair traps bacteria, and can lead to odor. Personally, I like to be as odor free as possible. I'm not one to follow trends or cultural expectations, but for me, it's a personal preference, whether I have a man in my life or not. I don't feel that grooming one's pubic hair is at all equitable to being oppressed, unless someone is badgering you to do it.

I prefer the small, close cropped "landing strip" above the region, the rest, smooth.

[LostinVA]

43. Very close to how I feel about it

And,"coochie cream" is cute, huh? I'm ordering some -- it got great reviews.

[tridim]

44. I disagree about lack of hair causing more sensation..

Cut a cat's whiskers and then ask how he feels about it. :) Hair has a direct link to nerve endings.

That said, I keep myself trimmed down there for the same reason I shave my face (I'm a male BTW). It just looks less scraggly.

[LostinVA]

47. No, the lack of hair causes much more sensation

A cat's whiskers are "feelers." When you're smooth, you can feel all kinds of stuff you can't while unshaven.

[liberal N proud]

48. I must agree!

[tridim]

53. It must be vary from person to person

because I've experienced exactly the opposite the times I've gone completely "bald". It didn't deaden the sensation (far from it), just changed it. Made me a bit less ticklish that usual.

[liontamer]

122. Technically it causes different sensation

You have sense modalities that depend on feeling the deformation of the hair on your skin. You can't feel them when you shave, you can however trigger different receptors that are generally shielded by hair. Of course you may prefer one or the other. I like to mix it up :) :hi:

[phylny]

51. I shave my legs, have had electrolysis on my upper lip, and I wax my arms.

NO waxing for me anywhere else, though. OUCH! :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. i get full brazilian waxes from time to time and grow it out from time to time.

what my partner does is upto her, i dont think one way or the other is a big deal to me.

i do find it oppressive when straight men expect women to be fully shaved/waxed while not doing it themselves.

[Nikia]

55. It is up to you what you do

I've tried shaving there a couple times. I feels bad when it grows back. I think it makes me look too young. I also don't think that my shape in that area looks as good as it seems to on most porn stars. Everytime I have done it, I have hurt after sex from the extra skin friction. I personally don't like it.
As for hygeine, I shower every day and wash that area, often using excess shampoo suds on that hair. If I don't feel "fresh" when I am planning on sex, I shower.
I guess I do get a bit offended though when people say that not shaving is disgusting or ugly.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. i agree with your last sentence. i also dont understand what the hygiene issue is.

most women i date may trim their hair but dont take it all off and i dont think its unhygienic. i think the poor butch girls would be most upset to wax all their hair off.

[Nikia]

57. I have heard some people say that not removing hair in that area

Is unhygenic. I have heard some guys say that they would never go down on a woman with hair for that reason. I don't understand that reasoning. If someone showers regularly, I don't think that is an issue.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. if std's are the concern, vaginal fluids are the culprit not hair.

so i don't understand why being hairless is more hygienic.

[Iris]

179. right. And that's why it's so offensive for other women to suggest it is

more hygenic to shave. It just perpetuates this ignorance.

[bliss_eternal]

59. Regarding the hygiene issue...

I can't speak for others, but when I speak of hair removal and hygiene, I'm speaking for myself.

Those with very coarse curly hair sometimes have issues with the hairs curling back in on themselves, creating bumps, etc. from everyday movement friction, exercise, etc. Not all do, but for some it's a problem. Ingrown hairs are painful and can get infected creating other issues.

I've also heard of some women getting other infections--which I won't get into because of the proliferation of medical professionals on this board that seem intent on debunking anything that I write that they haven't "personally seen" in their many years of medical work :eyes:.

Does this mean that one that doesn't shave, wax, etc. is somehow "less hygenic"? No way. I'm saying that for those (like me) that have had problems like ingrown hairs, it is an issue. For women that don't have such problems and they like a full bush, it's not a hygiene issue at all.

...it's all about preference and the individual as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry for the long response. :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. i started having problems with ingrown hairs after i started waxing. as did my ex gf.

so i think this too is body dependent.

as is i firmly believe no one should dictate what we do to our bodies so long as it doesnt harm someone else.


:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

67. I agree...

No one should dictate at all, as everyone is SO different. I would never say one that doesn't remove their hair is LESS--in appearance, hygiene, etc.

It's frustating to read that some feel "feminism" is determined by not participating in any sort of body hair removal, grooming, etc. Doing so to some seems to mean that we've sold ourselves out "to the man" and the "male patriarchy." :eyes: Why can't it just mean I (and other women) like the way it looks and feels--for OURSELVES? (not questioning you of course, just a rhetorical in general question). :)

I'm really sorry to hear that you (and your gf) started to have problems AFTER you started waxing. :( That sucks. :hug:

It's so interesting to me how individual this is. How some have problems IF they wax. How others have issues if they don't. For me, I get them when I don't. I still get a few when I do (wax)--but primarily when the hair is growing back, and I can generally catch them before they get to that point. This is one of the reasons I want to have it permanently removed. ;) No more hair--no more ingrowns.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. actually it was my ex who started having more ingrown hairs. and i think she stopped getting waxed,

i still do it from time to time. depending on mood.

[bliss_eternal]

74. Definitely individual...

some of my friends (straight, gay and bi) have said the thought of doing this in theory just sounded like medieval torture, but once they did they never wanted to go back.

The first time I heard of it, prior to doing it all I could think was..."omfg--no way! HOT wax...on my pubes?!?" :wtf:

:rofl::rofl: It's funny to me now, considering how much I like it.
But again, one has to dig being "bare" in that way. Some just don't like it--which is understandable.

[Iris]

180. wouldn't shaving exasperate the ingrown hair problem?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

60. I don't understand what butch has to do with it at all.

I have dated butch girls have been completely shaved by their own choice. Not to mention men, gay or straight, shave. So I have no idea what the hell gender issues have to do with this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. most butch women i have dated have issues with removing body hair.

one way or the other i dont care. so long as no one tells me what to do with my pubic hair i really dont care what one does with theirs.

i still dont think its a hygiene issue. to me its more of a "should i paint my nails or not" issue. paint them if you want, dont if you dont.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. "no one tells me what to do with my pubic hair"

"Nobody puts Baby in the corner."

:rofl:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. ?

?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

66. It was a joke. Nevermind.

You didn't get it.

[liontamer]

109. it's a famous line from Dirty dancing

the hindi version, "holiday", for some reason leaves it out.

[bliss_eternal]

69. omg...

"Nobody puts Baby in the corner"

:rofl::spray::rofl:

[LostinVA]

70. hehehehe

I know --

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

72. Hehehe.

Glad to see you get it.

:rofl:

[bicentennial_baby]

80. No one!

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. I think someone has never seen "Dirty Dancing."

[bicentennial_baby]

90. 'Twas my thought as well

[Triana]

75. Same boat as you LostinVA

...For me, it's got nothing to do with "porn", looking like a prepubescent, or any cultural stipulations or anything - it's just a personal preference - and I do it for the same reasons you and LeftyMom do! I walk and do a lot of yoga and well, it's just more comfortable that way. And for the other reasons you and LM cited. More hygenic, looks better, improves sensation....better oral, etc.

[LostinVA]

96. Thanks for the nice response, Triana

It's good to see another feminist who understands my POV that it has nothing to do with porn, and everything to do with personal preference re: sports, sex, etc.

Thanks again!

[Unbowed]

84. Guy perspective here.

As long as you don't ask me to shave mine, I don't really care. Legs and underarms are another matter entirely.

[LeftyMom]

85. I got a guy to do that once.

He got itchy ingrowns on the re-growth. Let's just say he was not super happy with me.

[Unbowed]

88. Aw no. Tell me it ain't so.

I'm itching just thinking about it. :yoiks:

[LeftyMom]

89. Yeah, but I found out later he was cheating, so he totally deserved it.

:evilgrin:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. Honestly, if you do it right, the itching isn't bad.

The itching sucks the first time you do it, but it goes away after you do it a couple times. Weird, but true.

[NMMNG]

86. Adults should be able to do what they want with their body hair

I've shaved before but typically just trim. While I like the clean shaven vulva when it comes to oral I prefer the feel of hair when it comes to hand action. Too bad I can't have it both ways. :evilgrin:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. OMFG!

You are so greedy!

[NMMNG]

93. I know

:shrug:

[eridani]

95. Unreconstructed hippie here

Nope, never. (Hey, you have to have something to trap the patchouli oil! :))I have very low tolerance for discomfort of any kind. I tried like hell to smoke as a teenager in order to be cool and rebellious, but I just couldn't ever get past the first few puffs.

The only hair that ever gets trimmed (not removed), is in the "crease" area between pubes and thighs (biking more comfortable that way, and a couple of inches off my ponytail every six months or so. Same thing for hubby--beard an ponytail occasionally trimmed, though sometimes in the summer he'll shave his face.

[LostinVA]

97. The patchouli oil comment made me laugh!

[KitSileya]

100. I shave as seldomly as possible.

One of the wonders of Norwegian Winters (and Falls, Springs, and most often Summers) is that you have to go completely covered, and don't have to shave your legs or your armpits. Shaving's such a nuisance, and so cold! Those hairs insulate, trust me. I remember distinctly the moment when I realized that some women shaved their legs - a classmate who'd done a year exchange sophomore year in high school in New Zealand came back, and told us what she'd experienced. She amused us by telling us how the girls at her school didn't shower after P.E. because of body shyness, which we thought was sooo stupid, and how they all shaved their legs. We all laughed. But that was the first time I realized that some women removed body hair other than in their armpits. Now it's pretty much only when I bare my legs, which is seldom, as I practically never wear skirts, and especially not miniskirts.

When it comes to pubic hair - I only trim. I wouldn't know where to go to get it professionally waxed (it's a relatively new phenomenon here) and I wouldn't want to try doing it myself. I trim because it's easier to keep clean, especially when I have my period.

[twenty4blackbirds]

107. I am influenced...

Shaving/waxing of the genital regions is, ultimately, a personal choice.

The choice will be influenced by many factors and the weight the woman gives to those factors.

The factors will be dependent on the culture the woman has been exposed to.

***
My choice so far is au naturel. I am highly influenced by:
* it is more time-efficient
* I enjoy the sensation of hair down there
* my SO's acceptance

I do hold a guilt complex regarding _my_ hirsuteness. I am highly influenced by:
* my culture, which prefers hormonal hair (e.g. underarm, legs, pubic) to be unseen

To be fair, I prefer it if strangers' hormonal hairs (underarm, pubic) were carefully tucked away. I am influenced by my upbringing - didn't see a thing :-) Which ought to be reassuring; 'normal' is whatever I choose to be, not just what I grew up with.

[ScreamingMeemie]

108. For me it began for medical reasons...

and just became part of my routine. MrG accepts and loves me either way. I feel better.

[Quantess]

110. Thank you for asking such a brave and personal question.

Nobody here thinks you're a pervert for opening up this discussion (if they do, they won't tell you anyway!)

My preference is shaved. Not clean shaven, but, definitely well groomed and well kept. Tweezers for plucking!
My boyfriend also likes to keep trim.
We are sort of odd, that way!

[LostinVA]

113. I think quite a few guys are doing taht now

Especially if they're, say, under 30 or so.

[Quantess]

116. We behave as though we are in our late 20s, and we look young too.

But, we're in our mid 30s.

I have always "felt more comfortable" with less hair. He says he "feels sexier" with trimmed hair. I agree.

[Katherine Brengle]

114. Interesting thread...

Personally, I agree with you - not a big fan of bodyhair in general.

I think the stigma associated with NOT removing it is, however, completely unfair and ridiculous. I couldn't care less if someone else shaves ANY part of their body - not my business or concern.

[LostinVA]

120. It is, isn't it?

And, all of the responses have been interesting, and not pervy (except for one the day I posted it). I would have loved to have put this in GD, but we all know what would have happened: it either would have been locked as a flamewar or sex thread in about 45 minutes.

I'm glad so many different opinions have been posted -- and I'm glad to see a fair number of guys, too.

[Nobody]

115. Late to the party, but here's my thoughts

Here I am late to the party, but here's my personal experience with shaving.

I don't. Not anymore. It's time-consuming and my skin is nowhere near smooth, never has been. I bleed every time I try.

When I was 16, I let it grow because I was sick of wasting so much time shaving and after a summer of not shaving, I had hair all over my legs about .25 inches long and underarm hair was about 2 inches long. Hairier than all the males in my family. For the record, I'm of the northern-European and Slavic ethnicities. HAIR, hair, and more hair. I have long hair on my head, too.

My parents got fed up and ordered me to shave, or they'd do it for me. I was not happy, since I loved not having bloody legs and scratchy legs an hour after shaving. I loved taking quick showers and not have to spend twenty minutes per leg shaving. Yes, I timed it, my hair is not only long, it's coarse and thick and dark.

For practical reasons, I would shave if I were in a swimming competition where the hair increases friction and slows you down, I'd also shave if a part I was playing in a play required it.

Am I a good or bad feminist? Does my hair make a difference? I don't think so. I think we should all do what we're comfortable with. Yes, our society puts a huge emphasis on beauty for women. Yes, most of us have been taught as kids that hairy women are ugly. I assume that most women who do shave are doing it for their own personal reasons.

It would be nice to one day be able to make a personal grooming choice without it being a statement for or against something. Men get to, why can't we?

[noamnety]

123. The time in the shower is an environmental issue also

If you leave the water on in the shower while you shave, it can waste several gallons of water per minute. (If you are using grey water or shutting it off, it's not such a big issue, obviously.) Fresh water is a limited resource. One of the ironies of the patriarchy is that women, who make the least money, are expected to pay the most for grooming supplies and rituals, and then the damage this does to the environment is felt disproportionately by women.

Many of the chemicals found in traditional shaving cream are harmful to our health.

BENZALDEHYDE (perfume, cologne, hairspray, laundry bleach, deodorants, detergent, vaseline lotion, shaving cream, shampoo, bar soap, dishwasher detergent) -- Narcotic. Sensitizer. "Local anesthetic, CNS depressant" ... "irritation to the mouth, throat, eyes, skin, lungs, and GI tract causing nausea and abdominal pain." "May cause kidney damage." "Do not use with contact lenses."

ETHANOL (perfume, hairspray, shampoo, fabric softener, dishwashing liquid and detergent, laundry detergent, shaving cream, soap, vaseline lotion, air fresheners, nail color and remover, paint and varnish remover) -- On EPA Hazardous Waste list; symptons:" ... fatigue; irritating to eyes and upper respiratory tract even in low concentrations..." "Inhalation of ethanol vapors can have effects similar to those characteristic of ingestion. These include an initial stimulatory effect followed by drowsiness, impaired vision, ataxia, stupor..." Causes CNS disorder.

LIMONENE 1 (perfume, cologne, disinfectant spray, bar soap, shaving cream, deodorants, nail color and remover, fabric softener, dishwashing liquid, air fresheners, after shave, bleach, paint and varnish remover) -- Carcinogenic. "Prevent its contact with skin or eyes because it is an irritant and sensitizer." "Always wash thoroughly after using this material and before eating, drinking, ...applying cosmetics. Do not inhale limonene vapor."

LINALOOL (perfume, cologne, bar soap, shampoo, hand lotion, nail enamel remover, hairspray, laundry detergent, dishwashing liquid, vaseline lotion, air fresheners, bleach powder, fabric softener, shaving cream, after shave, solid deodorant) -- Narcotic ... "respiratory disturbances" . . . "Attracts bees." . . . "In animal tests: ataxic gait, reduced spontaneous motor activity and depression . . . development of respiratory disturbances leading to death." . . . "depressed frog-heart activity." Causes CNS disorder.

a-PINENE (bar and liquid soap, cologne, perfume, shaving cream, deodorants, dishwashing liquid, air freshener) -- Sensitizer (damaging to the immune system).

g-TERPINENE (cologne, perfume, soap, shaving cream, deodorant, air freshener) -- "Causes asthma and CNS disorders."

http://users.lmi.net/wilworks/ehn20.htm

Generally, I think ecofeminists should be striving to use less disposable products (tampons, pads, disposable razors), less chemicals, less water, etc. And, generally, I think we should all be ecofeminists. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism

[Nobody]

131. Ever notice that women's produces are more expensive than men's?

Deodorant comes to mind. My supermarket puts price per ounce on the price tags so you can compare per ounce (or per whatever unit is most convenient) between brands or kinds. The same brand of deodorant for men and women:

They're not the same size.
They don't offer the same fragrances (even the unscented is different in women's as in not always available)
The least expensive brands are cheaper for the men's.
So if my deodorant isn't feminine enough, blame the deodorant manufacturers. I buy the cheapest. One's as good as another. I can't afford to waste money on a name and I hate most scented crap.

[benevolent dictator]

140. Ha. I knew there was a reason I use men's deoderant

other than the fact that I don't like the way most women's deoderant smells... it lasts longer for the price!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

155. i do too. i am a very girly girl but i dont like to shave my underarms.

and i get a lot of flak for it.

[benevolent dictator]

158. I hear ya. I've never shaved anything

except for the summer I buzzed my hair to 1/8th of an inch. Fun times...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

159. i have cycles. i always shave my legs. but everything else depends on the day.

[liontamer]

121. I'm kind of indifferent

I grew up with two different cultural views on shaving (legs anyway) so I'm kind of comfortable either way. I don't gain any physical benefits from shaving my legs. I admit that deodorant goes on easier if I shave under my arms. And tropical vacation/full bush leads to yeast infections for me, so I have to at least trim if I'm going to spend all day in a wet bathing suit.

Other than that it really doesn't matter to me. I'm not really concerned with body hair on me or my partner (or head hair either). I pretty much just remove or not remove hair on various parts of my body depending on my mood. It's about as random as how one chooses to groom their nails, or wear their head hair. :shrug:

[benevolent dictator]

125. Has anyone else noticed

that this thread seems to be a lot more of people stating their opinions rather than discussing how those opinions were formed? Or you know, just generally the politics of shaving? I see a lot of people claiming they weren't influenced by pop-culture, porn, friends, lovers, society or whatever, but somehow I find that really incredibly difficult to believe. If you live in society, you're going to be influenced by it. If you have friends or lovers, you're going to be influenced by them.

I think it says a lot that people are so unwilling to discuss WHY they have the opinions they do. I don't see the point in justifying everything as "well it's MY opinion and has NOTHING to do with anything else!" How is that a political discussion? It's blatantly ignoring the politics at work.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

128. speaking generically, not about your relationship

I think it's a symptom of the patriarchy that women feel changing themselves so their husbands are more attracted to them is a sign of love.

I look at it the other way - accepting how the other person looks without asking them to change is a sign of love for the person. Assuming it's okay to tell a person how you want them to look or dress or groom themselves, and telling them you'd find them more attractive if they did this, this and that - like you are listing off a la carte items from a menu - isn't a sign of love. It may be honest, I'll grant you that, and it may be a sign of love that you are willing to change yourself to please them, but it's something other than love that makes a person want (and request) such things in the first place.

It shifts a relationship from human connectedness and caring to humans as products.

Again, I'm not faulting your husband - he's a product of the patriarchy as much as we are, and I think it has been drilled into us all that men are entitled to request us to shave, or wear certain clothes, etc. and that women should do it to please their men.

There was a guy who liked me at one point - we talked a lot, but never actually dated. The deal killer for me was when he started talking about wanting me to wear tall boots and a skirt. That's not how I dress, not who I am, if I wanted to wear that I would. Boots make my feet sweat, skirts make me feel like I have to watch how I sit. On his end, he thought it was a small thing to ask, and if I wanted to please him I should be such a stubborn jerk about that.

It was the realization that he had a prepackaged idea of what I ought to look like, and wanted me to fit that mold that set off warning signals to me. I never did date him, never did get him to understand why it was so offensive that he would be more attracted to me as a person if I wore certain shoes or a certain dress.

Later, I lived the creepy echo of that scene, with the husband buying me a shirt for Christmas one year. It wasn't my style, but I liked it. I wore it so much the edges got frayed. It turned out to be a favorite shirt. No problems there.

We got divorced, we each got remarried. His ex showed up one day to pick up my daughter, and she was wearing the same shirt. He bought the same shirt as a gift to her. I wish I had another word to use besides creepy, so I wouldn't look like I only have 10 words in my vocabulary, but that's the only one that comes to mind. Creepy.

I don't have a good feeling about any man having a preconceived notion of what he likes women to look like, and then requesting that actual women conform to that view. Objectifying us, objectifying parts of us, is just too ick for words. If you want to be with me sexually, it needs to be all about wanting to share intimacy, and nothing about wanting my genitals to look a certain way because you've had some conditioning where you see this view, it makes you feel this way, and you want to replay that conditioning with me performing the part of the genitals.

ick ick ick

[lukasahero]

129. You use the word "tell"

I used the word "asked".

I've asked the mods to delete my post.

[noamnety]

130. I think I phrased it right

I used "tell" when I was talking about telling us they'd find us more attractive if we changed certain things, or telling us they want us to change things, and "request" when I talked about them asking us to actually conform to their ideals.

I don't think there's a way to make that request (for us to shave, dress differently, do our hair differently) without telling us they want us to look like that. Once they ask, even if it's low or no pressure, if we say no, it's out there in the open that they're disappointed or unsatisfied with us as a product to be consumed visually. That's the danger of even making the request.

[mongo]

132. Or maybe, just maybe it's more complicated than black-n-white

I think it's a symptom of the patriarchy that women feel changing themselves so their husbands are more attracted to them is a sign of love.

I look at it the other way - accepting how the other person looks without asking them to change is a sign of love for the person. Assuming it's okay to tell a person how you want them to look or dress or groom themselves, and telling them you'd find them more attractive if they did this, this and that - like you are listing off a la carte items from a menu - isn't a sign of love. It may be honest, I'll grant you that, and it may be a sign of love that you are willing to change yourself to please them, but it's something other than love that makes a person want (and request) such things in the first place.

Sexual attraction in general isn't about intimacy. It's about our sexual drives, which are objectified, and fetishised on particular body parts, types, clothing, objects and acts. That goes for both men and women, although men are more likely to fetishise clothing and body parts (because as a group they tend to be visually stimulated), where women are more likely to fetishize certain types of touch, or a story-line (candle-lit dinners, etc.)

Sure, some of what the culture we grow up with (I.E., the patriarchy) has input into what is typically fetishised, but it's not some be-all-and-end-all we want to make you an "object" as much as it is normal HUMAN nature.

If you want to be with me sexually, it needs to be all about wanting to share intimacy

So, in order to be intimate with you, a man needs to behave a certain way. To conform to a fetishized story-line in your mind. Besides being much more complicated, since I assume any man would have to guess what the story-line is, how is your need for that "story" a sign of "your love" than a guy that is triggered by the look of you in boots.

[noamnety]

133. No story lines

I'm unwilling to be a dehumanized object that plugs into some man's story line. Make sense?

I find all those consumer menu options grotesque. "Looking for a medium weight woman, ages 22-26, between 5'5" and 5'7", prefer brunette ..." The dehumanization thing is a nonstarter.

I guess if you want to call not being dehumanized or objectified a "fetishized story-line," we could arm wrestle over the semantics of that, but my outlook would remain the same. :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

134. What's wrong with stating what you're attracted to?

I'm not attracted to certain types of women. I have physical dealbreakers. I don't consider that wrong, because there are certain things that I'm sexually attracted to and certain things that I am definitely not sexually attracted to. They're not grotesque consumer menu options, but specific things that I like or dislike. I can't help that and I'm sure everyone else has similar reactions.

And as for being "dehumanized" or "objectified," it can be done in a good way or a bad way. If someone truly respects their partner(s), then yes, they can completely objectify them in bed. There is nothing wrong with a "fetishized story-line," in fact, it can be downright HOT. The key thing is respect. If people truly respect each other outside of the bedroom, then they can do ANYTHING inside that bedroom, including objectifying and dehumanizing, because the respect will follow into that bedroom.

[benevolent dictator]

139. Is there a respectful way to objectify another human being? nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

141. Yes, you can respect a person completely and still objectify them in the bedroom.

If two people truly respect each other, then they can say/do anything in bed and it will not affect their respect for each other. I'm sorry no one's ever respected you that much.

[benevolent dictator]

144. I'm still confused about how

one can "completely respect" another in all situations except the bedroom... where it's suddenly ok to dehumanize and objectify the other person.

Nothing to apologize for, I'm glad people respect me enough to not dehumanize and objectify me in the bedroom.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

148. The respect will follow into the bedroom.

You can objectify your partner in the bedroom, but still respect them. Actually, the person being objectified is often the one with more control of the situation, even if it doesn't appear that way.

And some people LIKE being objectified that way. What's wrong with that? If that's what consenting adults want to do with each other, then what's the problem?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. i think you have bdsm confused with objectification.

if you like to be the submissive partner in sex doesnt equate with wanting to be objectified.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

151. Actually, I am aware of the difference.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

152. no i did not. it was a copy cat thread. why dont you just check the other threads at the time?

there was a thread about "why does no one objectify me?" and i posted a copy cat that said "why cant I objectify you?"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. Self-delete.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

157. here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5863512

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5863692

[mongo]

136. You can call it semantics, but it seems to me

that you've weaved quite a story line just in this thread:

like you are listing off a la carte items from a menu
women should do it to please their men.
and if I wanted to please him
a prepackaged idea of what I ought to look like
to fit that mold
offensive that he would be more attracted to me as a person if I wore certain shoes or a certain dress.
man having a preconceived notion
actual women conform
Objectifying us, objectifying parts of us, is just too ick for words.
conform to their ideals.
Once they ask, even if it's low or no pressure, if we say no, it's out there in the open
product to be consumed visually
dehumanized object
consumer menu options grotesque
sexually, it needs to be all about wanting to share intimacy, and nothing about wanting my genitals to look a certain way

Projecting this out to the ridiculous for illustration, I'd say the story line might be "I want to be able to imagine I'm a green blob during sex and my man would want me just as much".

And really, there's nothing wrong with that. Especially when we are talking about relationships -- we all deserve nothing less than to be loved for who we are.

But when you narrow it down to attraction and desire, what I'm hearing is that you want to minimize the part that your body plays in the whole sex thing. You had some pretty heavy value judgments up thread, and I do wonder what that says about your conditioning. There seems to be another plot twist about not being made to feel that there are any expectations or requirements on your part to the relationship or act.

So, yeah, it may not be I want a 5'5" tall brunette in thigh high boots to do X and Y and Z to me, but it's as much of a story as I want to feel powerful in bed, or helpless, or out of control, or totally in control, or a million different variations on the theme.

And I hate to spew gender stereotypes, but men are more likely to be visually stimulated. The 2 most common paraphilias are for breasts and the whole foot/shoe thing. IMO, these triggers get set very early in our development, like 4 or 5yo, and get set mostly by accident by our mothers or other close adults. The poor guy with the the boot thing wasn't trying to change you as a person, he was trying to satisfy some trigger that got set for him as a kid.


Lastly, I hope I'm not pissing you off here. I'm finding this discussion quite interesting, and to bring this whole tangent back to the topic at hand, is it political to do something specifically for your lover? Is it only political if it "conforms" to some gender norm?" Can it be political if it was an act rather than a look?


On Edit: I did want to clarify that unwanted objectification by people other than our partners is a bad thing. If I ever get to meet you in person I'd talk to your face and not your chest :smile:, and I totally understand what a nuisance that can be. I'm only talking about the part that *some level* of objectification plays in our normal and consensual sexual interactions.

[benevolent dictator]

138. I just love it when people defend things with

the word "normal" -- especially when combined with "human nature."

It's such a cop-out.

[mongo]

163. I'd be really nice

if there was some substance to your post, to discuss.

[benevolent dictator]

169. I don't understand.

Why do you think my post lacks substance? Because it's saying that you can't simply hide behind words like "human nature" and "natural" as a defense for whatever action you feel like?

Maybe we could start with your definition of "natural" or "human nature."

[mongo]

171. Instead of arguing semantics

Lets look at the point that I guess you are saying is a "cop out".

Are you saying that men in general are not more likely to be visually stimulated and therefore more likley to fetishize body parts, or are you saying that they may be visually stimulated but it is not "human nature", it's culture, or something else entirely?

[benevolent dictator]

172. The only time I ever hear

that men are more "visually stimulated" is in discussions about porn, objectification of women, and discussions on shaving, and I've yet to see anything terribly convincing to support hypothesis. Men are much more likely to be color blind than women. Men and women visit art galleries in approximately equal numbers. Women patronize other fine arts such as musicals, dances, ballets, and plays more heavily than men do. I mean, from what I've seen, the only time men are "more visually stimulated" is when discussing sex, so yeah, I'd say it's a cultural myth that is used as a cop-out so we don't have to think about why men are so willing to objectify, use, and abuse women.

It's really convenient to just say that things are "natural" and therefore shouldn't be questioned. Or, conversely, to say things are "unnatural" and therefore justify one's hatred. Being gay is "unnatural," therefore it's bad and one can hate it without having to examen one's own prejudices. Men are the "natural" head of the household, therefore it's ok for them to subjugate women. It's "human nature" that men are more visually stimulated, therefore it's ok that they ask women to change their appearance to please them, or that they exploit women for the sake of "visually stimulating" porn. I mean, what is "natural" anyway? It's a scapegoat that we use when we don't want our opinions questioned.

[mongo]

175. Well, there have been many studies

and it's the commonly held scientific consensus. But, like evolution and global warming, you're free to not believe in that if you wish.

The other examples of things that were considered "natural" and shouldn't be questioned are attitudes formed out of the religious community, not the scientific community.

If it is a "cultural myth", then it's one that's been perpetrated throughout time and many, many cultures. Women have been modifying their bodies (to please men), since the ancient Egyptians at least. Yeah, the "norm" is different in other cultures (look at the tribes in Africa that elongate their necks, etc), but women modifying their bodies to attract a mate seems to be a common thread throughout most cultures - and even among most mammals.

[noamnety]

176. power, politics, and visual arousal

Men get the cultural message early on that they are supposed to be turned on by visual things. Our brains get trained to be aroused by one thing or another, which is at the heart of the concern about children playing violent video games - they TRAIN the brain to release happy chemicals in response to violence. Some of this theory also applies to military training, because it's not "natural" for people to shoot and kill each other - peoples' brains need to be rewired to make that happen "naturally." Studies can prove all day long that violence is a cause of arousal, but the value of the studies comes from determining why that is. Likewise, a study that shows men are typically turned on by pictures of women contorted and modified this way or that way doesn't prove the reaction is "natural" - it only proves it exists. It is worthless unless they determine the reason why.

No coincidence that the visual stuff men claim to be aroused by in women so often has to do with making them weaker, childlike, less capable of protecting themselves, less independent, more subject to control.

foot-binding
high heels
genitals that look like pre-pubescent
female genital mutilation
underweight

There's nothing in those examples that is hardwired into DNA, but men will insist they just "like" how women look when they are tottering around on unstable little spikes instead of being able to walk in a natural way. (And I am using the word "natural" there with cause.)

[mongo]

177. So are you saying their are no biological differences

in the mental processes of men and women? Really?

No coincidence that the visual stuff men claim to be aroused by in women so often has to do with making them weaker, childlike, less capable of protecting themselves, less independent, more subject to control.

I agree with you there is a common thread, but underneath the cultural "training", there is a biological basis there too -- men in general being more prone to violence, and subjegation. Look at the pecking order in our prison systems for some of the worst examples of that.

I really hate throwing people into gender boxes though, and I think that it is the "alpha-dog" personalities (of both genders) that provide the best examples of the tendency to subjegate and oppress other people.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

135. Is it a "symptom" of the patriarchy that I expect certain things from my girlfriend?

I am a lesbian and I love her, but I expect certain grooming, which she has no problem with. So am I an unconscious victim of the patriarchy? Is my girlfriend also an unconscious victim, because we remove our body hair?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. i agree with you.

why we like something is influenced highly by what we are accustomed to.

the why is very important.

[ScreamingMeemie]

162. No. I think I told you exactly why. Sorry, there were no politics

involved. Thank you. I think you are picking and chosing that which you wish to highlight.

[benevolent dictator]

170. Well I doubt most people

start shaving for medical reasons. And you're right, in a thread titled The Politics of Body Hair, I would like to discuss and highlight the politics. I wasn't trying to belittle your contribution.

edit: spelling

[La Lioness Priyanka]

147. on the politics of body hair as opposed to my preferences etc

when i was younger and more sexist and homophobic i considered waxing and shaving and removing body hair as a mandatory part of being female. i thought women who didnt were "ugly lesbians" etc. and generally deviant and weird and not someone i could understand.

A good liberal college education and understanding the politics of gender and body changed a lot of that internalized sexism and homophobia in me. (in my defense i also come from a very sexist country...and am very grateful to my NYU experience for becoming a liberal feminist).

THere are also plenty of studies to prove that people tend to prefer things and think they are prettier when they are more exposed to these things. Its because we never see women with armpit hair that we think its ugly when women do have body hair.

I dont dictate what you or anyone else should do with their body hair. But to say that there are no sexist politics involved with women removing body hair is just historically untrue. I understand that sexism, homophobia and a general distaste for women in society started the removal of all body hair trends. Maybe over time it can evolve to a "take it off if you want or dont if you dont" issue but as it goes now i dont think thats where we stand really.

Any and all porn i have watched in the last 8 years has yet to feature one woman with full bush, and one has to wonder why that is.

[noamnety]

160. That's funny

I never even saw anyone with shaved genitals when I was younger. Not a single girl in high school, not a single one in college (where only a minority shaved their legs), and none in the army. Actually - I take that back. One girl in the Army, on the drill sgt's orders, because she caught crabs from the latrine at the rifle range. She was mortified, and didn't want to shower in front of anyone because it made her look like a freak. So I still have that association (you look like you caught crabs) in my head, can't quite shake it. Triggers are odd things.

Anyway, having seen the cultural shift where it went from unheard of to "normal", it's fairly obvious that it's cultural - meaning, for us, inseparable from the patriarchy.

I think anyone here could agree it's cultural - imagine yourself in the 1400's, you wouldn't be thinking "eww, I wish they'd shave their genitals" - not because of a judgmental reason, but because you'd be absent that thought process entirely. Or imagine yourself as aristocracy in the 1700's - both men and women removed all hair from the forehead to wear artificial press-on mouseskin eyebrows. I can just hear one of them saying "it's not cultural or political at all - it's just what I prefer."

" ... Another marketing campaign ... convinced the women of North America to shave their body hair. Notably, women in the other parts of the world do not engage on masse in this ritual. Even in French Canada, the habit is not largely undertaken.

It all began with the May, 1915 edition of Harper's Bazaar magazine that featured a model sporting the latest fashion. She wore a sleeveless evening gown that exposed, for the first time in fashion, her bare shoulders, and her armpits.

A young marketing executive with the Wilkinson Sword Company, who also made razor blades for men, designed a campaign to convince the women of North America that:

(a) Underarm hair was unhygienic (b) It was unfeminine.

In two years, the sales of razor blades doubled as our grandmothers and great grandmothers made themselves conform to this socially constructed gender stereotype. This norm for North American women has been reinforced by several generations of daughters who role-modeled their mothers."

http://www.quikshave.com/timeline.htm

White male capitalism, at its finest. Hard to make money from women NOT shaving. Nobody's going to market that as an ideal.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. agreed.

[Heddi]

164. In response to the original topic

I choose to trim my pubic hair and shave along the outer margins of the pubis and inner thigh because it is what I choose to do.

The reasons, for me, are simple. They are not based on some deep-seeded reminder of male-centered society. It is not because i am trying to look pre-pubescent. It is not because I am doing it to please my partner, or because my husband would have me no other way.

I have been trimming my pubic hair since I started growing pubic hair--and that was when I was in the 4th grade. Shortly after I developed pubic hair, I started menstruating. For me, menstrual periods are long-lasting and the flow is quite heavy. When I started menstruating in elementary school, I was unable to go to the restroom every 2 hours to clean myself, and I found that heavy flow + thick and long pubic hair meant painful blood clots within the tangles of the hair.

I found that a remedy to trying to untangle blood-clotted pubic hair was to trim the hair close to the labia.

I am also an overweight woman. As I grew older, I found that since my thighs rubbed together, having pubic hair at its natural length was uncomfortable. I didn't like it. So that's another reason why I continued to trim in my adult years, even through the years that I was on Depo-Provera and had no periods.

My husband and I have been together for 10 years. I'm 31 years old and have been trimming and shaving in some form or another since I was 10 years old--long before I knew him, or any other male in any sexual sense. Long before I was aware of the patriarchy that is inherent in our society, especially when dealing with sexual mores of women.

---

It has been suggested above that any woman who modifies the natural growth form of her pubic hair is doing so because of deep-seeded patriarchial messages that are hidden within the gyri and sulci of our brains. I find this reasoning to be flawed at best.

I do agree that we are all subjects of our culture, and that we all like or dislike things in certain accordance to how we were brought up, what culture we were raised in, what values were taught to us and which behaviours were directly or indirectly praised or chastised during our upbringing.

But why stop at pubic hair and how we choose to groom it?

I am currently wearing Birkenstock clogs. Why do I choose those shoes, and that style, over any others? It could not be that I simply find them to be comfortable shoes that are long-lasting and a great value for the price, could it? Certainly that's a simplistic view. Perhaps I subliminally choose Birkenstocks because of some clever German marketing ploy that was introduced into my brain at a young age. Perhaps I'm falling back on my younger days when I saw the cool art-school kids wearing them---I want to be just like them and so I am unconsciously choosing to wear things that I equate with being "cool".

Perhaps I'm unconsciously falling into the stereotype that liberals are the type to wear birkenstocks and eat granola....

On that note, I just made some granola last night. It could not be as simple as my liking granola and deciding years and years ago to make it at home because it it much healthier and more cost-efficient than buying it at the store. No, there must be some subconscious, subliminial reason why I am making granola at home.

----

The one often frustrating thing about this group and many other Women-centric forums I have visited over the years is the hypocracy:

Women are independent beings, able to make their own decisions regarding health, education, occupation, lifestyle without ANY intereference from ANYONE.

....unless, of course, you make a decision regarding health, education, occupation, or lifestyle that does not fit SOME FEMINISTS ideal of what a "good" woman does, or what a "real" feminist does.

How can we expect to have the right to have unfettered access to abortion and contraceptive and health-care choices if we're saying on one hand "oh, well, we can make these decisions on our own, we have our own mind, we can do what we want" and on the other hand be reminded that ANY choices we make are all a subconscious decision based on patriarchial attitudes of society?

I mean, can I make my own decisions or not? Or am I only allowed to make my own decisions with regards to certain aspects of choice?

We do not criticize women who have abortions. We do not criticize women who are using contraceptives. But we find 10000 things wrong with a woman who chooses to groom her body in ways that differ from our own personal choice.

In this forum, the message as I see it is:
You are a woman with a fully-formed brain and have the ability to make the decisions you see fit with regards to abortion
You are a woman with a fully-formed brain and have the ability to make the decisions you see fit with regards to contraception

but

You are a woman with ill-formed brain that cannot see past the misogony-tinted glasses that you wear and cannot make a fully-formed decision to groom your body hair in the way that you see fit

You are a woman with an ill-formed brain and you cannot possibly make any decision regarding your sexuality that deviates from the norm set-forth in this group unless you are willing to admit that your ideas of sex and sexuality stem squarely from the pre-set notions of female self-hatred and misogony that you have been fed throughout your entire life. Even if you don't believe it to be so, it is so, as we say it is so, and any amount of defense on your part is mere denial of the self-loathing you have for yourself and your body and the bodies and independence of all other women in the world.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

165. If I could recommend a single post, I'd recommend this one.

EXCELLENTLY PUT!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[LostinVA]

166. Very well-written addition to the thread

Thank you very much for posting.

[Heddi]

167. Thanks :) Another reason

and this may just be TM f'ing I, but I'm a nurse. I work 12 hour night shifts. I judge the business of my nights on the number of pee breaks I get to take (four pee breaks is a good night...one is bad...and none is just awful).

At any rate, walking around, running around, wearing uncomfortable scrubs, sweating, sitting, standing, bending, pulling, pushing...all night long for 12 hours....without ANY bathroom breaks, or few bathroom breaks can leave the vaginal area in a not-so-fresh state of being.

When I closely crop my pubic hair with sciscors, I find that the odiferous nature of a vagina attached to a sweaty, hard-working woman is quite negligible. Were I to allow my pubic hair to run rampant, I would have an odour that is quite offensive to myself and to those around me. Please---those of you who are so ready to put words in my mouth (at my fingers??) and state that the above statement means that I am:

calling all vaginas smelly
calling women offensive
calling the vagina offensive

or any other plethora of ridiculous misstatements, you can just cut it.

I am a nurse. I work around vaginas and penises EVERY FUCKING NIGHT OF THE WEEK for 12 hours at a time. I can tell you that ANY bodypart that goes unwashed for an extended period of time will garner some odour or another. And I can tell you that personally, my own vagina, does not do well to have unfettered pubic hair AND sweat AND the funk that builds up between thighs that rub together for 12 hours straight AND the naturally-inherent leukocytosis (vaginal juices) that build up over time. Add those ingredients to a part of the body that is much warmer than, say, the inner aspect of the elbow or the nape of the neck and you will many times get an enhancement of the natural odour of that area. For myself, I am quite uncomfortable having a quite odourous vagina around my patients especially considering that their beds are at groin level.

Me, personally---I would have serious doubts of the nursing abilities and devotion to cleanliness and sanitation of a nurse that had a vagina that smelled to the point that it was noticeable by others.

Now, again, I know the fingers are burning to claim that I'm calling vaginas ugly and stinky and anyone that has one as being unfit to be a nurse. Go ahead---say it. You know you want to. You know you're going to.

And I know there are going to be people that say that they have never EVER EVER in their life encountered a vagina that smelled anything BUT like roses and to that i say a) you're very lucky or b) you're flat out lying.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

168. umm...while i did defend the scent of a woman..,i believe you in that

if anything goes unwashed it will smell.

umm..ugh..

[benevolent dictator]

173. I agree that...

I agree that there shouldn't be this animosity between "good" feminists who don't shave and "bad" feminists who do, but I think a lot of people are confusing the asking of others to consider WHY they are doing something with the telling them that doing that is bad.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass if you shave or not, if you dress a certain way or not, if you do your hair a certain way or not. I don't care. But that doesn't mean I won't ask you to consider WHY you are doing it. WHY do you spend all the time and money (and most of the time lots of wasted water) on shaving your legs? WHY do you style your hair with all those expensive, environmentally damaging products and spend hours getting it ready? That's not the same as telling you NOT to do it, or that doing it is somehow bad or wrong.

Also, the issues you listed are very different in terms of how society views them. Society as a whole condemns women who have abortions, and while a woman may personally have very supportive family and friends, she would have to live under a rock to not know how this country views women "like her." If she decides to get an abortion, she is going against what society expects of her. When she goes against society, it's much more likely that she is making this deciscion because it's what's actually best for her.

On the other hand, when someone follows our cultural beauty standards, I think it's fair to ask them to consider why. It's easier to go along with society, and it's also easier to just say, "well I do it because I like it!" instead of thinking about the societal pressures for or against something.

It may be that a person started shaving because of medical or comfort reasons. It may be that the person started shaving because of peer pressure, or societal pressure, or for whatever reason. I don't really care. If someone says that they shave because that's how they are expected to look by their friends and society at large, but they're ok with that and don't want to challenge that, then fine. But to pretend that society has NO influence on us is simply that -- pretending.

Even in discussions such as this, cultural pressure is present. When we read threads saying, "Well personally, on me, having hairy legs/arm pits/crotch is just disgusting and unhygenic!" everyone who doesn't shave suddenly has the idea that hairy legs/arm pits/crotch is unhygenic and gross, and everyone who does shave for those reasons just had their opinion validated. It doesn't matter that there's that little disclaimer at the beginning. Most non-shavers probably wouldn't start shaving after a comment like that, but when you pile them up week after week, month after month, eventually they are going to start to have an effect.

Think about when most girls start shaving. Middle school? Elementary school? Yeah, I'm sure that is a decision made free of societal influences and peer pressure. So now here they are ten, twenty, or more years later, it's what they've done for most of their lives, of course it's going to seem "natural" and "better" because it's what they're used to. Not saying they have to or even should stop, just saying it's important to think about the reasons why.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

174. as someone who has a brazilian scheduled at 5.00 pm today (no jokes)

i agree with you.

i know why i do it. i can still claim its a preference but the prefence didnt come from nowhere. it came specifically from american society. (when i lived in india i thought shaved genitals were ridiculous. now i think that its 'normal')...its ony normative within a culture and it reflects certain aspects/attitudes of that culture.

[SemperEadem]

188. thank you... well said

[Captain Hilts]

201. Leg hair serves no purpose, but pubic and underarm hair prevent friction.

As someone who works out, it is more comfortable if you don't remove hair from those areas.

[Iris]

178. I don't necessarily find shaving hygienic. And I resent the suggestion that not shaving IS.

And I really, really hate when people use that reason because, like it or not, it DOES suggest that women are dirty unless they do something to "clean themselves up".

I think there could be an argument that pubic hair is NOT an some extra thing on the body, like the appendix. In fact, hair on the body serves purposes like filtering harmful agents near bodily openings and keeping the body cool by forming a barrier between the body and clothing.

And while pube shaving may or may not be related to this, the use of thong underwear has increased the incidence of yeast infections for women. Makes sense to me - shave yourself bare and wear a string that connects your anus and vagina - hygienic?

If someone wants to shave her twat, she should go for it, but just don't suggest those of us who don't are somehow "unhygienic."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

181. If someone wants to shave her twat, she should go for it....

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

183. There is NO *scientific proof* that thongs are connected to yeast infections.

Also a good thing to always remember is correlation does not equal causation.

I wear thongs often, shave very regularly (which also keeps itching and ingrown hairs pretty much non-existant), and have had one yeast infection in my whole life. That was before I discovered just how comfortable thongs were to wear, actually.

Now, you can say that my one anecdotal experience means nothing, but neither does the anecdotal evidence you're basing your post on.

[Madspirit]

182. As a Feminist

I think whatever someone wants to do to their own body is their own business. Kind of the point of feminism, imo.

I HATE the shaved look, personally but whatever floats your boat...
Lee

[Miss_Strawberry]

184. As long as you feel sexy and comfortable...

My SO tells me all the time that I am too relentless in my quest for smoothness, but he knows that makes me happy and I know that he's ok with me no matter how I am. It is so silly to crucify women who make the choice for themselves.

[BoneDaddy]

185. As a male Du'er

I like all ways. I am turned on by my wife's shaved vulva, when it is a shaved into an interesting pattern and at full unshaven bush. We engage in the shaving process (of each other-talk about trust).

I don't think it has anything to do with pedophilia, it has to do with change, feel, and it certainly is easily for oral sex. Those hairs that can tickly the nose, end up in the mouth can be really annoying at times.

[Quantess]

191. Yes, thank you.

The idea of men appreciating shaved areas has NOTHING to do with pedophilia. That's like saying "women who like clean-shaven men are attracted to 10 year old boys".

Honestly, I think men are just pervs who want a better view.

[LostinVA]

193. So are some women

"Honestly, I think men are just pervs who want a better view."

[Marrah_G]

186. I shave ( most of the time)

I like how it feels. My guy could care less one way or the other if I shave anything.

[Madspirit]

192. Not my preference

...but it's a personal choice and as a feminist I believe what you do with YOUR body is YOUR business. I know you are a feminist and I trust you and respect your decisions.
Lee

[Iris]

203. Makes sense, until someone calls my choice "unhygienic"

Which is nearly always a reason given by proponents (male and women) of this practice. "It's more hygienic."

[Sivafae]

196. I find a lot more politics in whether or not a woman shaves her legs.

How I keep my pubes is my own damn business. When I was thinner, I found having a full bush rather entertaining. Until I realized that the hair keeps growing. Then it got a little too long.
But now that my thighs actually rub together, I have to keep the pubes short or the rubbing starts to pull the hair down and it becomes hard to walk. I don't wear underwear. Womens with big bottoms just should not wear undies unless they really want to walk around pulling the underwear out they bottom all the time.
Personally I love my Oster and shave my pubes down to a short length, but not shaved bald. Personally I just don't like how it looks bald. I also find that it helps with the smell. I'm sorry, but when the shit is long, it becomes a little harder to wipe myself clean.
However you have hairy legs and you offend so many more people that really have no right to even be concerned. Again I personally don't like the feeling of stubble when I'm getting down with my honey and we're rubbing legs together. Long hair on the legs is softer and more sensual. White guys usually freak out about it. Fuck 'em.
But also another reason I don't shave my legs is a protest against commercialization.

[MikeH]

197. My thoughts on the matter

I am a heterosexual male, and have had an attraction to body hair on women since I was an adolescent. This includes pubic hair, and hair on other parts of the body, i.e. legs, arms, underarms, etc. Hairy legs have been my particular favorite.

When I was 12 years old, about the same time I started growing my own pubic hair, I found myself very turned on by the thought of pubic hair on women. And a short time thereafter I found myself turned on by the thought of hair on women’s legs and underarms. And I was also reminded that women usually remove hair in those places.

It has often bothered me, and I have sometimes felt sad, that just about anything else has been acceptable in our society at some time since the 1960’s except for natural body hair on women. It particularly bothered me in the 1970’s that long (head) hair on men was widespread and acceptable, but not hairy legs or hairy underarms on women.

It was a disappointment that since the 1970’s the trend has been for women to remove hair not just on their legs and underarms, but also hair on their arms, and their pubic hair.

I really think it is crazy that in this society most (if not all) women feel they practically *have to* go through all kinds of pain and trouble to get rid of any body hair.

I admire women who keep their body hair, i.e. hair on their legs, arms, underarms, pubic hair, etc., and who like and are not ashamed of their natural state and their natural hair. In fact I find such women to be very sexy. I have long wished that women in significant and non-trivial numbers would let their body hair grow out.

I myself am very turned off by the thought of a completely or almost completely shaved pubic region. However if somebody else likes it that is, of course, their business.

Actually I respect women trimming or grooming their pubic hair for reasons of comfort or for some of the practical reasons that are given above.

[athena]

198. Thoughts

My boyfriend is also turned on by pubic hair on women. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with a man who expected me to shave my pubic hair.

I'm from a culture that considers women's bodies naturally filthy and expects women to wax off all of their pubic hair. Fortunately, I left while very young and never had to endure this torture. I did shave for a few years, though, and couldn't stand the itching. Then one day, while surfing the web, I discovered that it's more hygienic not to shave pubic hair. One can get small scars while shaving, which can then get infected. I haven't messed with my pubic hair since.

I would love to be able to go around with leg hair. I get ingrown hairs whenever I wax or shave any hair off. And my hair is so dark that the stubble is clearly visible even when I do shave. The only reason I shave (and I do it rarely) is that I don't want my co-workers gossipping about my leg hair. Maybe with time I will develop a thicker skin.

Another reason I dislike shaving is that it's wasteful and bad for the environment, the way it's usually practiced. You either send tons of plastic into landfills or use battery-powered shavers that have to be replaced yearly.

I find this thread very interesting. I consider it completely unnatural to shave pubic hair and am amused by all the excuses women come up with to justify shaving. If shaving pubic hair were such a great idea, men would be doing it too. As a feminist, I disagree strongly with my fellow feminists who think that feminism is merely about choice. Not all choices are good choices. Moreover, people who are pressured by society into doing unpleasant things often fool themselves that they are making a choice. Shaving pubic hair is a perfect example of this. I wish I lived in a world that did not expect women to change their appearance in inconvenient ways to please men.

I will likely be flamed by the pro-shaving crowd for this post. Any woman who is tempted to attack me should be honest and ask herself whether she is really making a free choice to shave: would it be socially as easy to make the opposite choice? If not, then you are not making a free choice.

[Iris]

200. Everything you say makes sense. I particularly abhor when someone suggests she shaves because

it is "more hygenic" because she's then automatically suggested that someone who doesn't is "unhygenic." But, as you say, if shaving were necessary to be hygenic, then men would be doing it, too.

[benevolent dictator]

204. I agree.

Because of the social pressure to shave, anyone who "chooses" to shave needs to think really long and hard about whether or not they're making that choice of their own free will. It's much easier to "choose" to go along with society than it is to buck the standard. If someone who shaves regularly stops just to "try it out," it's easy to let all that negative socialization seep in and convince them that they really do just "like" to shave, not that they've been socialized their whole lives to think that not shaving is dirty, ugly, uncomfortable, and unhygienic.

(Apologies if there's weird grammar, I've been speaking a lot of German lately...)

[LostinVA]

208. Many men DO shave their pubic hair -- for many reasons

I don't know why anyone would claim that only women would do it.

[RadicalTexan]

216. What she said.

All of it.

I wish I had the courage to stop shaving my legs, but I don't - yet.

[joshcryer]

199. We're relatively "hairless" creatures.

Humans are one of the few mammels that have fine hairs on our bodies. Thus there is something about being able to clearly see the preferred sexs' genetalia, imo.

[DuaneBidoux]

202. As a man I find "clean" twats very creepy. It seems like a wish for pedophilia to me.

To me there should be no politics of shaving at all. If someone wishes to shave everything or shave nothing that should be acceptable and if one wants to do whatever they wish to feel sexy (or to feel nothing for that matter) than that is okay with me.

As I did say in the headline however I do find the shaved twat to be rather creepy. It is almost like someone wants a child to be sexual and sexually available.

I have noticed, on the little bit of porn I watch however that some men are starting to do the same thing. Kinda of weird. The problem is (I'm afraid) that it is here to stay.

[LostinVA]

212. A grown woman does not look like a child, regardless of body hair

And, I would expect somebody to use a less vulgar term in the women's rights forum.

[Tara_NM]

205. it's nearly a pro choice topic because....

It's all related to self control of ones own body when you get down to basics....thus I support a womens right to have or not have any level of body hair she feels is best for herself.

[Feron]

206. My belated two cents.....

Personally, I don't shave down there. I don't care if someone shaves or not, but as those upthread have said, it gets annoying when people claim it's unhygenic to have hair. Hair isn't gross or disgusting. But like tattooing or piercing, shaving isn't for everyone.

I frequent a non-political board and the topic of shaving came up. Apparently people are shaving their anal hair in order to please men. Now come on, if a guy is turned off by a few hairs, then he isn't worth sleeping with. Not to mention how sad that women have such low self-esteem that they will bend over backwards for any sort of acceptance. The culture of self-loathing has to stop. Women will never get ahead if they self-hate.

And I'm just so sick of corporations finding new "flaws" for their products to "fix". Vaginal hair isn't bad and neither is having cellulite or aging. A woman's worth is not tied to her fuckability.

[Iris]

207. You forgot plastic surgery to make the labia more attractive.

Talk about making things up for women to be ashamed of.


good post.

[LostinVA]

211. Well

if a man (or woman) is performing certain sexual acts, then I can understand why s/he would want their partner's anal hair shaved. It doesn't really have anything to do with self-esteem.

[minnesota_liberal]

209. Getting Rid of Bush - The Best Reason to Shave!

Couldn't resist!

[Nobody]

210. And don't forget to remove the dangling chads n/t

[dusmcj]

213. I'm a guy and I do it too

I think too much down there is skeegy, symbolically and also potentially, physically (it's a dirt trap so requires more hygiene to get to the same cleanliness - out on the back porch this is definitely the case). Symbolically because I'm personally not on the earth mother/Iron John side of the spectrum. My (female) partner has not expressed dismay at my efforts, and I think they're kind of cute ;) For my part, I want her to be happy first and wouldn't ask her to do anything either way, and while she happens to prune less radically than I do, it's enough so that the results are pleasing, I assume to her as well. Fresh natural smells are different than stale ones, and too much hair down there seems to tend to encourage the latter simply by probability regardless of your best efforts at hygiene - you're going to miss a spot that you wouldn't if it weren't there to begin with (in this case a hair).

It's also a turn-for me (on me and on others) but I'll leave it at that.

[uallupinmykoolaid]

214. File this under TMI, but I do not shave down under

And I also do not shave my legs and pits very often during the winter. It's not a political statement; I used a razor and scissors to trim my bikini line over the summer and the result was painful little bumps:(

And I will never subject myself to the torture of waxing! Hair down there is protective.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

217. Painful bumps means you just didn't do it right

Mach 3 razor and coochie cream is your friend.

[MikeH]

218. It sounds to me like she would rather not shave or remove her hair

That being the case, my guess is that she not would appreciate your advice or suggestion about the "right way" or the "best way" to remove her hair.

Since the poster you responded to has been tombstoned and is not able to respond, I thought I would take the liberty to respond myself.

I am a heterosexual male who has always had an attraction to body hair on women, and who has always wished that women in non-trivial numbers would let their natural body hair grow out. I could never understand why anything else in our society is and has been acceptable except for natural body hair on women.

I respect a woman's (or a man's) own preference and choice to remove their own body hair. However I feel the need to speak out against pressure on women in general to remove their body hair, or suggestions that women in general "should", or are "supposed to", or "ought to" remove their body hair.

[rebecca_herman]

222. I wouldn't neccesarily assume that

I also get those horrible bumps just from shaving enough to wear a normal cut bathing suit, followed by an absolutely AWFUL itch that nothing would relieve until the hair had fully grown back, and personally, I think my skin is just sensitive... I get a more minor version of the rash from shaving my legs as well as ingrown hairs (ow) regardless of the type of razor or cream I use, I tried various products reccomended by my doctor to no result. I think my skin just doesn't like being shaved. After years of trying, I just gave up, and decided rather than torture myself, I would buy a suit that hid it.

So personally, I buy the bathing suits with the little skirt or shorts bottoms, so I don't have to remove any hair down there, for the few times I swim. I am single, and have always been single for my 24 years, but I will never shave down there because my body just doesn't tolerate hair removal well, and it's bad enough shaving on my legs which I just grin and bear it on, but I can't tolerate any more than trimming a bit with scissors in that area. Any future boyfriend/husband will just have to understand that. I'm simply not willing to torture myself.

[NashVegas]

215. Way Late

I only ever shaved once in my life, long before porn was easily available. It was just something I wanted to try. Coochie cream wasn't around then and oh, jeez, were there issues when it was growing back.

You talk about ingrown hair? One, once in a while's not a huge deal. Hundreds and hundreds was.

It was only when swimsuits started being cut super, super-high that I started to feel political about not shaving because commercial interests took away the choice and forced it on us. After 1982 or so, you had to shave at least to the new bikini lines or you weren't going to swim in public, unless you didn't mind being seen in a swimsuit that was designed and marketed for overweight or much older women.

When Brazilian waxing came along, once again, it was commercial interests dictating fashion.

Bottom line: I trim, I shave to the swimsuit lines because I have to, if I have to. But I see no reason to shave it all (and I'm not getting enough sex for it to bother anyone else), and I find 100% shaved manly parts less attractive as well.

[RadicalTexan]

225. this is why this year, for the first time in my 30 summers, I will be wearing women's board shorts

rather than a swimsuit, to the pool.

The lesbian couple who live in my building wear kick ass board shorts with bikini tops and look awesome and comfortable, and I plan to do the same thing. If people think I'm a lesbian, even better!

[seabeyond]

220. ha, look at the interest. 17,467? views. lol. hm. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

221. It's the Kudzu thread of the Women's Rights Forum

[lightningandsnow]

223. Are we STILL beating this dead horse?

:rofl:

[Strong Atheist]

224. Seriously, I am in the minority these days. I REALLY like the

unshaven look, and have stated so in the lounge many times in 05 - 06' ... :shrug:

[Echo In Light]

228. Agreed. And my wife tried shaving her wonderful muff yrs ago & didn't care for it anyway

As unpopular as it may be, I really do believe this hairless trend owes much to the public's, especially young women, unprecedented access to hardcore pornography.

I mean, look at other popular forms of media that people use and consume, and you'll see plenty of monkey-see monkey-do there. Porn is no different.

Anyhow, either aesthetically, or when I go down on my wife, I prefer her muff.

[RandomKoolzip]

227. Another male's perspective (for what it's worth):

My girlfriend, who is significantly younger than me, and who considers herself a feminist, insists on shaving her leg hair and her armpits. I have told her many, many times that I do not expect her to do this, that it's okay to just be natural, that I think she's the most beautiful first thing in the morning (i.e no makeup), that whatever she chooses to do with her body is her choice. Yet she thinks that I'll be "grossed out" if she doesn't shave her legs and pits and put on makeup. Like I said, I've told her time and again that it doesn't bother me. Finally, last week, she told me that she'll continue to do it because it grosses HER out. Whether or not her body image is psychologically shaped and/or determined in some fundamental way by our patriarchal culture's collective notions of gender (and age), it's HER CHOICE to trim, shave, or let her freak flag fly. And that's fine with me - it's HEr happiness that matters in the end.

I've dated women before who didn't shave their body hair, and it didn't bother me. Hell, as long as she's got a good heart and we can laugh at "CSI:Miami" together, then whatever she wants to do with her body is none of my business.

As far as cunnilingus is concerned, some hair in my teeth is a small price to pay to be able to give her pleasure (it's fun for me, too, of course!) Hair down there doesn't bother me. Thankfully, she's not concerned about pubic hairiness - just her pits and legs (and a brow tweeze now and again). Maybe, as she gets older, she'll begin to lose some of the impulse to constantly un-naturalize herself, to shed some of the cultural pressures that travel with youth and beauty (she IS beautiful, by most standards).

Frankly, as long as she loves me, I have no right determining her habits or the conditions of her body; if you love someone, set him/her free, right?

Interesting discussion thread.

[NYC_SKP]

229. I'm a man and I generally dislike unnatural things like make-up, perfumes, shaving...

excessive hairdos and clothing.

I, and a few women I know, appreciate the human body the way nature made it.

This includes not only body hair, but natural body scents (excluding rank body odors).

Humans are animals, animals are attracted to scents.

Body hair is a different matter from body scents, but both fall under the category of body modification.

FWIW, I keep my head hair cropped short and I shave, for reasons of convenience and lower maintenance, so I appreciate the practical reasons that women may want to shave this or that part of the body.

But I am not attracted to a bald crotch, I prefer natural.

:donut:

[Beacool]

233. Pooch, what are you doing on this thread?

:7

[Iris]

230. This thread is over 3 years old!

[LostinVA]

236. I cannot believe someone kicked my 3 1/2-year-old thread

[MrMickeysMom]

231. Landing strip...

... no, that's not the reason for this practice so much as wearing my thong undies, which I find quite comfy.

I respect the decision to do what's comfortable, and like we said in the 70's whatever turns you on.

Pretty cool that this is still an unlocked topic after all this time!

[badacid]

232. It's not pedophelia, talk about trying to shame people into your pov.

I like the look of a freshly shorn vagina when coupled with a woman's with hips & breasts.

My wife likes it when I trim - OMG!!! She's a pedophile!! But that's not the assumption you make, is it? It's only if men like shaven genitals does it make them a pedophile.

We both like to perform oral sex on eachother especially when we're both trimmed down. I can only speak for myself and repeat what my wife has said - it feels better when shaven.

And yes, my wife and I both agree that we objectify the other. I don't understand how she gets turned on by looking at my body, but she does. And vice versa. If I had just met her, didn't know anything about her, I'd still be turned on looking at her naked.

But, amazingly, we respect each other. I don't raise my voice to my wife, and she doesn't either. If we have an argument or are getting angry, we allow the other person the time to collect their thought and calm down before discussing and moving forward.


Now, if you or anyone is shaving because the society at large says that's what is desirable - put on your big person pants and make a decision that suits you.

[musette_sf]

234. "I never thought this would happen to me, but..."

Dude, save the Penthouse letters for the Lounge.... this is the Women's Rights group...

(I might not have commented, save for the fact that the post you replied to had ZERO about any POV - negative, positive, or neutral.)

thankyoudrivethrough

[Lyric]

235. I do not shave down there.

And I rarely shave anywhere else. I'm a hairy girl; I'm almost 100% East European and Ashkenazi Jew, and believe me, it shows. However, I also have VERY delicate skin--shaving AT ALL will leave me with a terrible rash no matter what I do. On the rare occasion I can't stand it anymore and desperately want to go swimming, I use a Mach 3 Turbo razor and thick, foamy shaving cream...and I *still* get an awful rash two days later. With my psoriasis, any skin injury or irritation can turn into a psoriasis lesion that sticks around for years. To me, being hairless is just not worth the hassle of that. Thankfully, my partner is not the sort who gives a damn about something like that. :)

[MikeH]

237. Good for you!

I am sorry about your skin condition; that sounds like no fun. Otherwise what you say sounds pretty wonderful to me.:)

I really admire very much that you are a hairy girl, and that you don't mind saying so openly, and that you do not feel it is worth the hassle to be hairless. And I am glad that your partner is OK with it.:thumbsup: :toast:

I wish more women who are naturally hairy could feel OK about being hairy and keeping their body hair. As a heterosexual male who likes hairy women, I personally wish that heterosexual hairy women in particular could feel OK about being hairy.

I have been posting for a number of years on an adult chat board devoted to discussing female body hair. There are several women who have decided to let their body hair grow out, and there are a number of men like myself who like and appreciate the natural beauty of women with their body hair.:)

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aj_cd]

239. I never knew

there was a politics of body hair. Never occured to me.
My body my choice. In all things, including body hair.

If you want to get me on rant, lets talk about what women are putting on their feet these days and calling shoes. They look like torture to me. Do so many woman harbor desire to be hobbled? Their choice, but it has me scratching my head.

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lbrtbell]

243. I don't think women (or men) should shave completely

Trimming is one thing, but shaving is unnatural. Women (and men) aren't supposed to look like plastic Barbie dolls, but mature sexual beings--and that includes hair. That's my opinion. :)

A couple of things I find curious about your post (I'm NOT flaming)....

How can you not have ingrown hairs anymore, when shaving is what causes ingrown hairs? Hair simply does not become ingrown if allowed to grow naturally.

Also, lightly touching the pubic hair is incredibly arousing, and you're missing that experience by having no hair.