Opposition to eroticizing violence against women is "a bit backwards"

[noamnety]

MADRID -- Italian fashion giant Dolce and Gabbana has withdrawn an advertisement from Spain which authorities and consumer activists said encouraged violence against women, local media reported Friday.

"We are withdrawing this photo only from the Spanish market. They have shown themselves to be a bit backward," the firm said in Milan where it is based, daily newspaper El Periodico reported.

(snip)

Spanish prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has made the fight against domestic violence and machismo a priority of his Socialist government.

In Spain, 2 million women say they are the victims of physical or psychological abuse.

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070223-073851-3170r

[Warpy]

1. Sickening

Looks like the kind of thing we still see month after month on the "no comment" page in Ms. Magazine.

It's hard to believe that after all these years of fighting the stupid male perception that rape is an enjoyable experience, admen still produce this stuff and think it's attractive.

[deadmessengers]

4. stupid male perception?

That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with there. Don't try to lump all of us in with crap like this. It's not a male perception, it's a misogynist one - and there is a HUGE difference.

[Lerkfish]

7. I agree the ad is disgusting. I also don't agree that means all men are rapists

two disgusting things added together don't make a rainbow.

[noamnety]

8. Well, yes, I think that was warpy's point

that all men are rapists. :eyes:

Seriously, though, regarding rape fantasy being a male perception, the way people think is a product of socialization, so that perception is not something inherently male. It's cultured. Socialization and culture DOES present the message that women fantasize about being raped, and I think that's what Warpy was commenting on.

Some of us hear "women fantasize about being raped and think "yeah, that's something they do fantasize about, even if they don't want it to happen." And some hear that message and think "That's offensive and ignorant." But we all hear the message.

[Lerkfish]

14. valid point, and we are not in disagreement about that.

[omega minimo]

18. You're wrong. Warpy didn't "lump all of you." It IS a male perception.

Does that mean all males share it? No.

Is it enculturated and influential? Yes (see lwfern's reply to you)

The fact that once again a male demands that women (IN A WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND ISSUES FORUM) talk about WOMEN'S ISSUES in a way that male's approve of is totally :puke:

And so bloody self centered. It is a male perception. That doesn't mean ALL males (or you, unless it does). "There is a HUGE difference."

Do SOME women try to remember to type SOME men ALL of the time? Yes.

Does it make any difference? NO.



It's always ALL ABOUT YOU.

[noamnety]

19. It does get tiresome

When women talk about violence against women as a systemic problem, we don't feel the need to use the *not ALL women are abused* disclaimer on every single statement we make, because:

1) we assume people are already smart enough to know that, and
2) we're talking about a systemic problem, not isolated issues with individuals


When women talk about violence against women as a systemic problem, we don't feel the need to put *not ALL men are rapists* disclaimer on every single statement we make, because:

1) we assume people are already smart enough to know that, and
2) we're talking about a systemic problem, not isolated issues with individuals

It makes us kind of cranky when we can't have a spot to talk about the issues that damage us, as a group, without having to put the obligatory disclaimer on every post. It's kind of like if the Iraqi civilians got together to have a conversation about what to do about the occupying force systemically raping or torturing or killing the people there - and each time they got together, some US Marine popped her head in to say "I didn't personally torture anyone. Why aren't you acknowledging that?" You know how you'd expect the Iraqi civilians to look at her with that wtf look, like they have half a million dead bodies, and she's worried they didn't acknowledge her feelings while they were talking about that?

Yeah. It's like that.

Now if a marine came in to listen to their concerns in an effort to understand the problem so she could influence the command structure or the other marines in some way to try to improve the situation, that's fine. That's different than inserting herself into their conversation to talk about how they need to be more sensitive to the marines when discussing a group of marines that just blew up their house.

[omega minimo]

20. Yes-- and that's why we had those discussions about trying to comprehend

trying to comprehend the privilege that denies privilege, denies any systemic problems

trying to comprehend why SOME of them are the same who don't respect our "spot to talk about the issues that damage us, as a group, without having to put the obligatory disclaimer on every post."


:thumbsdown:

The disclaimers don't make any difference.

[hfojvt]

37. Is it like that? Is love a battlefield?

What if there was a contigent of marines at this meeting which was just as concerned as stopping the systemic abuse as the Iraqis and yet much of the talk is not about systems, but blanket castigations against all marines?

If you are talking about systems, then shouldn't the discussion be about systems, rather than 'men this' and 'men that' and 'male this' and 'male that'. You cannot say something like 'men are rapists' or the 'stupid male perception ...' and claim that it does not cover all men. Irregardless of what Humpty Dumpty believes, the word 'men' without any qualifiers does refer to all men. How can something be a 'male perception' if it does not apply to all, or the vast majority of men? Even if it is only males who have that perception, it could not accurately be called a 'male' perception if it was held by, for example, .6% of males.

Of course, the phrase 'stupid male perception' could mean either that the perception of males is stupid, or that the perception is held by 'stupid' males, which is, what? about .3%? :rofl:

Although in this discussion, I am reminded of a penultimate scene in "Revenge of the Nerds". Louis pretends to be Betty's boyfriend and has sex with her at her suggestion (when he's wearing a mask and she thinks she is propositioning her boyfriend). My Indian roommate (male) was furious when he saw that, that this movie was promoting rape! I never thought of that as rape, though, since there was no force or violence involved. However, my roommate was obviously correct in that the violation was just as severe because of the deception. However, my initial reaction was to applaud Louis for his cleverness and for 'scoring' with a hot woman. And continuing in the movie, Betty's reaction was to say 'Wow, that was fantastic! Best ever!' Thus, there is doubtless a large swath of the male population which thinks, even if only deep inside, that if he has sex with a woman, even if by force or deception, that he will satisfy her like no other, give her what she really wants and needs.

I am pretty sure, however, that not every male has that kind of confidence. And another place I found that theme, was in Harlequin romances, written and read primarily by women. Typically they seemed to be about an arrogant alpha male who kinda forces himself on a spunky and talented younger woman - and she loves it, although she initially resists. My friend Beth said that the 'bodice tearing' was to take away the guilt. It's wrong to have sex, after all, even when you want Mr. Alpha Fabio, but look, the story says, I tried to resist, but he did not give me much choice. I complained about the alpha male lead to another customer of mine, and she told me, 'we know how to distinguish between fantasy and reality'.

[noamnety]

39. You lost me with your subject line

"Is love a battlefield"

I don't see a discussion about "love" here. I see a discussion about violence against women.

[hfojvt]

44. relations between men and women. Is it all about violence?

You made the metaphor to war as if women in this country are like Iraqi civilians and men are like US marines. To me, male-female relations are more about love than they are about battle, although there are some on both sides who are engaging in battle. Thus it is like a guerilla war, but many people really do not want any part of it. Since I don't see men and women as enemies, my perception is that the two in the picture are just playing around.

[rodeodance]

2. machismo is still strong in many cultures. Glad to see Spain telling them

to take a hike!

[WindRavenX]

3. That is one fucked up ad

:puke:

[Lerkfish]

5. agreed

I find it very disturbing.

[WindRavenX]

6. what's funny is that I usually *love* fashion ads

I'll read Vogue and GQ just for the creative ads. I love fashion. And from my understanding, people in the fashion world are usually very liberal and open minded.

Very disapointing to see this.

[progdonkey]

10. they can be open minded but still be totally oblivious...

I think people in fashion tend to get to caught up in the whole idea that "it's Fashion/Art!" and focusing on "the look," and it becomes difficult for them to step back and see how something might actually be in very poor taste. You have a problem with an ad? Well, that's because you're just a philistine who doesn't understand fine art (or you're "a bit backward"). Or, why should you get offended? It's just fashion. Etc.

Kind of like with those Calvin Klein ads that were said to glorify child porn because of the background wood paneling and shag carpeting that made it look like it was made in someone's basement: I think they just got caught up in the idea of "the look" without understanding the reality and seriousness of what that look is based on.

[WindRavenX]

11. I agree

Sometimes, people just get so lost in their "bubble" that they can't take a step back and anticipate how their work might be interpreted.

[Morgana LaFey]

25. Sometimes I think people get so lost

in externalizing their private fantasies and misogynist attitudes that they can't take a step back and realize that what they're doing is NOT "okay" and the way everyone else thinks, and is actually something women object to and for damn good reason.

[lazer47]

9. It shows me the level

of intelligence, that anyone would consider all males fanatize about rape,, or that any true male would find that ad to be erotic.

[Nobody]

12. What are they advertizing?

Until I read the commentary, this looked like an still from a porno flick before the clothes came off.

There is a billboard on the way to work that apologizes for a previous ad showing too much male anatomy and gives a number to call if you were disturbed by that. Why is it grounds for apology for offending men with too much male nudity but if a woman complains about too much female nudity and offensive content she's being hypersensitive?

Once again it was for an unspecified product. If you're going to advertize at least let me know what it is you want me to buy.

Bet you anything that if there was an ad eroticizing the victimization of an adult male, it would be (rightfully, I must say) screamed about, and yanked before most people had seen it.

But we see images like the one above all the freaking time and any time a woman complains, out come all the apologists, telling her that she's being too sensitive.

Last time I checked, rape was still a felony.

[noamnety]

13. Wow. I cannot even imagine that.

I'm trying to envision a company putting out an apology for showing too much female skin in an ad, and renting billboard space to post a number to call if you were offended by it.

[Triana]

15. Lovely societal double-standards we got, eh? (n/t)

[Orrex]

21. Regarding that "apology" billboard...

Was it put up specifically to give the phone number to men who were offended by the male anatomy on the previous billboard, or could the complaint-hotline be called by anyone?

If the former, then I agree that that's pretty weak. If the latter, then it strikes me as still overly sensitive and a double-standard besides, for the reason you correctly mention.

[hfojvt]

38. my guess is that the apology billboard was put there

because of complaints from women. Be interesting if we could call and ask.

The reaction to this ad puzzles me.

Why does it look like gang rape? It's not even clear to me that all of the men are in the same scene. It's a very strange floor and walls if they are.

Further all of the men are fully clothed, in my view. I am sitting here with no shirt and shorts on and have no problem going outside dressed like this. In the summer I often bike to the store shirtless, put a shirt on for shopping, and then take it off again for the ride home. None of the guys are undressing in anticipation of taking part in a gang rape. None of them show any interest beyond a bored glance - if, again, they are even looking at the same scene.

The picture does not suggest violence to me. Restraining somebody like that is not a way to hurt them. More typically it is a way to restrain somebody who is trying to hurt you. I have had two female friends initiate wrestling with me (just for fun, not to shut my misogynistic mouth). So to my naive eyes in my innocent world, where most men do not rape or want to rape, and where most women are not raped, it looks like a couple just funning around in one picture and a bunch of other guys in other pictures.

People in other worlds, who have been raped or knocked around by their SOs, probably see it differently, based on their life experiences. I have no problem if advertisers are made to be sensitive to the feelings of people who have already been victimized too much, but I don't think it makes me some kind of monster or rapist-enabler because I don't see things the same way.

[Triana]

16. GOOD for Spain...

...this is DISGUSTING! And it's SO wrong. What this photo suggests is GANG RAPE! :mad:

[mongo]

22. To those that see a sexual boogieman under every rock

I'm sure it suggests gang rape.

Does the woman look frightened? In peril? Angry even? And I'm sure that the sexually suggestive hip thrust position suggests shes trying to run away on those heels.

To the rest of us it's just an ad.

[Morgana LaFey]

26. THANK you!!

You've just perfectly explained why the ad is so very harmful, not to mention disgraceful.

RAPE is wrong, illegal and unbelievably traumatic for every woman who experiences it. It can and has ruined entire lives. Perhaps more to YOUR interest, it has ruined women's entire sex lives as well. It causes PTSD. It causes STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Most rapes go unreported, reported rapists uncaught, caught rapists untried, tried rapists unconvicted -- AND virtually all rapists are serial rapists which helps explain why something like 1 in 4 women will be RAPED IN HER LIFETIME, and she doesn't even have to be a sweet young thing to be so "lucky," she can be 80, crippled and/or demented.

But YOUR line of work makes all that okay -- for the men: see how she's not afraid? See how she LIKES it? See how she WANTS it? LIES about women, for male "pleasure." LIES about women for male "pleasure" that will result in more women getting raped.

See why I have such utter contempt for pornography and pornographers?

But thank you at least for your honesty. Now maybe others can see some of the harm in pornography. This ad -- and your apologia for it -- speak volumes.

[mongo]

27. Rape is wrong

But the fact that your mind writes the story into this ad is more telling about you than me.

[Morgana LaFey]

28. No, but your continued defense of it certainly says a lot

I'm OBVIOUSLY not the only one who read not just rape but gang rape into the ad, else it wouldn't be being pulled. It takes no special talent, nor twisted mind, to "read" the obvious message in an obvious graphic depiction like this. Don't try to play me for a fool, OR make like the ad is all innocent. It's not.

Again: else it wouldn't be getting pulled.

[Iris]

41. So, what is the story that was being told here?

I guess I'm just so obtuse I missed it. Damn that English degree - it is so utterly useless.

[Danger Mouse]

29. "A bit backward"??

It looks pretty damn tasteless to me.

[Cerridwen]

33. You mean like the IAP?

That would be the Italian agency which was founded, and is funded and run by the advertising industry in Italy; a self monitoring organization. One of its jobs is to monitor advertising in Italian publications in order to safeguard human dignity, pluralism, objectivity, completeness and impartiality of information and of communication activities. "In order to safeguard human dignity...completeness and impartiality", yeah, I bet they see "sexual boogiemen" everywhere, huh?

Or perhaps you were referring to Amnesty International

Social and political institutions foster women’s subservience and violence against women. Certain cultural practices and traditions – particularly those related to ideas of purity and chastity -- are invoked to explain or excuse such violence. Virtually every culture in the world contains forms of violence against women that are nearly invisible because they are seen as “normal”. (emphasis added)

Or maybe you're talking about the people with knowledge of how "marketing" has been used as "thought control" to get "Rosie the Riviter" into the workforce and the subsequent "marketing" campaigns to get Rosie back into the kitchen, baking and "consuming" to prop up the economy, promote "conspicuous consumption" and to make way for the men returning from WWII. The same types of "marketing" campaigns which have brought us an actor for President upon whose death was sold to the gullible as "saint ronnie", a drugstore cowboy pretzel-dent and sold the U.S. people on illegally invading another country based on hype, fear and lies while diverting attention from the Saudi nationals whose participation in the 9/11 attack pointed to another country entirely.

So to you and others who say it was "just an ad", congratulations. To those who cried "Censorship! Censorship!" although it wasn't, congratulations. You've proven the effectiveness of "marketing" psychology's use From Ingsoc And Newspeak To Amcap, Amerigood, And Marketspeak. Well done. You've made a stand for sheeplehood. Welcome to 1984, Brave New World, Amusing Ourselves to Death and modern fascism; all rolled into one.



"There are none so blind as those, that will not see" - proverb

"I freed a thousand slaves I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves." - Harriet Tubman

[Iris]

42. excellent post.

Even if some still will refuse to see, thanks for posting.

[Iris]

40. And if she changed her mind and started to not enjoy it?

Do you think she could stop all those men from doing exactly what they want to do?

[Jade Fox]

46. Just an ad? Oh come on.....

What else could be going on in that picture, with those people positioned as they are, beside gang rape?

Of course the woman doesn't look frightened or angry, since advertisements are designed to sell things. That's the point: this ad makes gang rape look like something women wouldn't object to.

[omega minimo]

17. The same "backwards" nation that is discouraging anorexic fashion models in favor of "real women"

[SemperEadem]

23. I wonder how backwards they'd think the US was

if a boycott launched in this country against D&G?

No, backwards is the person who thought this up and those who ok'd this campaign. This ad says 'rape is fashion'.

Would it be just an ad if it was a skantily clad man tied to a chair with 5 women standing around him with knives, rose shears and branch snippers wearing Betsy Johnson or Vivienne Westwood?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. I'd be intrigued to know the process that led to this ad being aired.

I'm quite prepared to believe that there are some advertising executives out there who would think this was a good idea, but I find it very hard to believe that no-one anywhere along the line pointed out that a depiction of an only-slightly-stylised rape scene was not an acceptable advert for clothing.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it was made with the specific intention of being banned, hence getting into the media and generating publicity. On the other hand, if that tactic worked I'd expect to see it used more often, so I'm slightly at a loss.

[Warpy]

30. No, the obvious subtext for the ignorant fool(s) who approved

this ad was "Hey, they (Women? Drag queens?) will certainly realize that this ad means our shoes will DRIVE MEN WILD!"

Using sex to sell things to women is always a tricky proposition. That's what our reaction to this ad should tell those idiots.

I mean, eew! what woman wants to be flat on her back on a filthy street while a musclehead driven wild holds her down?

You want to sell shoes to us, lose the violent men.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. It's a possibilty, but I'm sceptical.

My impression is that most advertisments go through multiple layers of vetting, and while I'm sure there are men (and women) who would think along those lines, I find it unlikely (although by no means impossible) that every single person in the chain would fail to think that "buy our product and you will be gang-raped" is unlikely to help sell clothing, and one would be all it would take.

[liontamer]

32. In the US at least, this ad only appeared in Men's magazines

such as esquire. It was intended to hold men's interest.

[redqueen]

34. What the...

:grr:

[Iris]

43. yeah. Nice for American women to have no idea what they are up against.

Assuming they don't read men's magazines.

[noamnety]

35. More fashion ads

http://community.livejournal.com/foto_decadent/1403878.html

[Orrex]

36. CNN has a video story about this

I can't post the link because I can't get to it from my at-work connection, but it's accessible from CNN.com's front page.

[Katherine Brengle]

45. That photo makes me feel like throwing up.

Ugh.