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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 06:28 PM
Original message
Compulsory ultrasound in South Carolina
Here is an editorial from a right wing site:

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/kroeten_20070427.html


This is the first I've heard of this.

Can anybody here tell me what is really going on?

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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Can we demand compulsory brain scans
of the RWers? What's fair is fair.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. It is a strategy used which makes abortion more difficult and
Edited on Sun Apr-29-07 06:46 PM by Cerridwen
more traumatic for women. If anti-choice women-haters can't make abortion outright illegal, they use these types of strategies to make getting an abortion harder and more expensive, and whenever possible, more traumatic for a woman who would have the audacity to exercise her rights.

There are a few threads floating around here (DU) which discuss it. I'll see if I can find a couple for you; I notice you probably don't have "search" capabilities. :D Give me a few minutes.

:hi:

Edit to add links to a few DU threads about abortion and ultrasound and a couple of editorial comments from me.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=229&topic_id=3769

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3240769

This one is a locked thread which I've not read completely, but in which the OP argues for ultrasound. I presume that means a heated "discussion" about the pros and cons of requiring an ultrasound for us poor, dumb women who don't know what we're doing so we need some big, smart doctor to show us. You can tell from my words what I think of the ultrasound requirement. :D http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=779556

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=772387

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=753475

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=760032


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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank you.
:D
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. What about men who get vasectomies? Aren't they preventing
childbirth? And nuns. What about those nuns? And priests? All these children who aren't getting born. Wait, what about girls who get their periods at age nine? They should be pumping out spawn by age ten. Anyone know how young boys can become fathers?

All this childbirthlessness is sinful.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The policy of the Doc who did mine required I bring my spouse/SO in, take some literature and a few
of a cooling off period.

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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. But I already cooled off! I spent the last 20 years
solidifying my position on abortion. The more I hear about the idiots some people think we women are, the more fervently pro-choice I become.

Yeah. Let's do everything we can to inject more unneccessary trauma into someone's life.

Just remember one thing. If someone wants to insist that you live your life they way they tell you, they're usually trying to insist that you take the option that will lead to the most misery.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. your doc's policy would be illegal, where I'm at
I have also read material from the US pointing out that it is unacceptable to require spousal consultation/consent, e.g.

Providing literature is a normal part of the consent process for many procedures: informing the patient about the various implications of the surgery/treatment, and alternatives to it that achieve the same end. (Adoption is not an "alternative to" abortion, i.e.) As is some in-depth discussion to ensure that the patient's consent is informed -- which may include discussion of a spouse's attitude. Here's something on point:

http://www.infoforhealth.com/pubs/ect/chapter10.pdf
(boldface emphases in original)
Because Sterilization Is Permanent

A woman or man considering sterilization should think carefully: “Could I want more children in the future?” Health care providers can help the client think about this question and make an informed choice. If the answer is “Yes, I could want more children,” another family planning method would be better.

Questions can help. The provider might ask:

• “Do you want to have any more children in the future?”
• “If not, do you think you could change your mind later? What might change your mind? Suppose one of your children died? Suppose you lost your spouse, and you married again?”
• “Have you discussed sterilization with your spouse?”
• “Does your spouse want more children in the future?”
• “Do you think your spouse might change his or her mind later?”

Clients who cannot answer these questions may need encouragement to think further about their decisions on sterilization.

Take special care:
In general, people most likely to regret sterilization have these characteristics:

• Young,
• Few or no children,
• Have not talked with spouse about sterilization,
• Spouse opposes sterilization,
• Not married,
• Having marriage problems.

Also, for a woman, just after delivery or abortion is a convenient and safe time for voluntary sterilization, but women sterilized at this time are more likely to regret it later. Thorough counseling during pregnancy and the woman’s decision before labor and delivery help avoid regrets.

The choice belongs to the client.

None of these characteristics rules out sterilization. Sterilization should not be denied to people with these characteristics. Rather, health care providers should make especially sure that people with
these characteristics make informed, careful choices.


"But doctors won't sterilize patients without spousal consent / mandatory waiting periods / etc. etc." is not a rebuttal of arguments against mandatory "counselling" or forced acceptance of information in the case of women seeking abortions. Except to the extent genuinely required for informed consent, both are violations of an individual's rights and freedoms.

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. But IIRC, aren't you in a country where medical treatment is a right?
Here in the UK, and I think in Canada? both abortion and vasectomies are rights - the state is not merely forbidden from preventing them, it's actually required to provide one if you need one. If the state is employing a doctor, clearly they can set terms of employment for them.

In America, though, medical treatment is just a private contract between a doctor and an individual and their doctor, so I'd imagine the doctor can basically impose what conditions they choose (within some limitations).

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Discrimination is illegal in all these places

In America, though, medical treatment is just a private contract between a doctor and an individual and their doctor, so I'd imagine the doctor can basically impose what conditions they choose (within some limitations).

Some limitations indeed. Refuse to treat people of colour? Refuse to treat immigrants? Refuse to treat non-Christians? Nope. Violations of whatever the local equivalent of human rights codes are -- prohibitions on discrimination in the delivery of services based on specified grounds. Those laws very definitely govern "private contracts", in relation to employment, housing, the sale of goods, transportation, etc. etc.

And then there are professional ethics, enforceable through the authority given to the self-governing professions (like medicine, law ...) by legislation.

A doctor can refuse treatment where, in his/her professional judgment, it is not in the patient's interests. That's what the questions in the list go to: being in a position to make a professional judgment. Not a personal judgment.

Those questions direct doctors' minds to situations where a patient made need extra assistance in exploring the reasons for his/her choice of treatment, and possibly in understanding that the choice is not in his/her best interests. Professional ethics do require doctors to ensure that their patients' choices are informed, and this is one aspect of that requirement. But as a matter of professional ethics, the doctor cannot make the choice for the patient.

There may be a rather indistinguishable line in some cases, as to what is a valid professional judgment and what is a personal opinion. But a person whose spouse opposes sterilization or who is single and childless cannot just be assumed to be making a decision not in his/her best interests and not to understand the implications of the decision. The doctor may think that the odds of regret are high, but it is not a doctor's job, or any professional's job, to prevent people from carrying out choices they may regret.

A doctor who denies treatment based on personal opinion rather than professional opinion is violating his/her professional ethics, and could and should be disciplined by the professional body.


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DawnIsis Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think all men should have to watch an open heart surgery right before they go under for theirs
because how can they make a decision without having a clear picture of what's about to happen so they can make their decision based on an emotional response to the images instead of logic.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-06-07 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. so, ok... let's examine ways around this ruling...
the patient could request that the overhead monitor be turned off so they don't have to see it? The technician has a monitor that faces them and really, that is all that is required in this case.

They can keep their eyes shut, and put earplugs in or their iPod earpieces to not listen to the technician's comments...

Can they refuse to pay for the procedure? I mean, why should she have to incur a cost for an unnecessary ultrasound just because some fundamental case thinks having one will suddenly correct all of the problems in her life and erase all of the reasons why she needs to terminate her pregnancy?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. "First-Of-Its-Kind Law Would Require Women To See Ultrasound"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/21/national/main2593092.shtml

(CBS/AP) With calls of emotional blackmail from opponents, a measure requiring women seeking abortions to first review ultrasound images of their fetuses advanced Wednesday in the South Carolina Legislature.

The legislation, supported by Republican Gov. Mark Sanford, easily passed 91-23 after lawmakers defeated amendments exempting rape or incest. The House must approve the bill again in a routine vote before it goes to the Senate, where its sponsor expects it to pass.

Some states make ultrasound images available to women before an abortion, but South Carolina would be alone in requiring women to view the pictures.

Delleney is the main sponsor of the amendment. There is already a South Carolina law requiring women to review abortion information and undergo a waiting period. Still, Delleney believes women need more information to make a final decision, reports CBS affiliate WLTX-TV in Columbia, S.C.


There's an easy remedy for this one. In the US, it's called "the First Amendment". Freedom of speech includes freedom to receive information, which includes freedom not to receive information, just as freedom to speak includes freedom not to speak.

No government is entitled to force anyone to see anything s/he chooses not to see. Not without a constitutionally legitimate justification, and there just ain't one here.
Supporters hope women would change their minds after seeing an ultrasound and choose instead to keep the child or offer it for adoption.

"I'm just trying to save lives and protect people from regret and inform women with the most accurate non-judgmental information that can be provided," Rep. Greg Delleney, R-Chester, said.
doesn't even begin to constitute justification for this gross interference in one of the fundamental rights in the US Constitution.


Blackmun J. in Roe v. Wade:
(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

Most abortions to which the S.C. proposal relates are first-trimester. The rule in the first trimester is: the state is entitled to piss off. Under the "privacy" principles that Roe is based on, the state has no role to play in respect of abortions at this stage, other than the role it would play in respect of any medical/surgical treatment. (Licensing doctors and regulating facilities, e.g.)

In the second trimester, the state is entitled to regulate "in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health". It's not at all clear what the Court had in mind there (what more is needed but licensing professionals and regulating facilities?), but no one qualified to give an opinion about what is related to a woman's health -- i.e. doctors -- would ever include "being forced to view an ultrasound" in that category.


I'm sometimes gobsmacked. If a law like this, or like a zillion other laws in the US, were ever passed in Canada, thousands of people in Canada would be filing constitutional challeges in their local courts the next day. Of course, true, no one here would propose it and seriously expect it to get anywhere in the first place.

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WildClarySage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Seems to me that if us gals are too stupid to make the decision
to abort or not, aren't we too stupid to be left to raise the children?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. never mind raising children

who the hell thought it was a good idea to let us vote???

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't think that the 1st is relevant here, I'd suggest the 14th.
Firstly because the first ammendment only protects against involuntary restrictions on freedom of speech, and no-one is forcing you to have an abortion (teachers, for example, don't have free speech in their classrooms) and secondly because I don't think you can equate being forcibly exposed to something with being forbidden to express something, at least legally (morally you might have more of a point).

I think that a much stronger consitutional challenge would probably be based on the 14th ammendment - the one Roe vs Wade is based on - which prevents restrictions on abortion and guarantees a right to privacy. This seems to be a fairly clear violation of that.

On the other hand, I'm not as confident as I'd like to be that the current supreme court is going to uphold Roe vs Wade, and if it doesn't then clearly challenging this constitutionally wouldn't work.

I should also stress that my grasp of American constitutional law isn't great, so this is not an authoritative opinion.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'm afraid I find your analysis quite deficient
Firstly because the first ammendment only protects against involuntary restrictions on freedom of speech, and no-one is forcing you to have an abortion (teachers, for example, don't have free speech in their classrooms) ...

No one forces you to ride a public bus, either. Can you really be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance before being permitted to ride?

Specious analogies really don't cut it with me. Teachers accept the limitations on their speech, when they accept the position, that are rationally related to their duties, and only those limitations.

If viewing an ultrasound were rationally related to a valid state objective, then women could be compelled to do it. It isn't.

... and secondly because I don't think you can equate being forcibly exposed to something with being forbidden to express something, at least legally (morally you might have more of a point).

And of course you have chosen to disregard completely the point that the right of free speech operates not only to prevent prohibitions on speech, but also to prevent forced speech. You are entitled to choose what to say, and also what not to say.

It also operates to prevent prohibitions on access to others' speech. And now, do you really believe that it would not operate to prevent the state from compelling you - an adult, not in school -- to read, oh, the bible? the works of Mark Twain? Say, if you wanted to have a diseased kidney removed?

Why might you think that you have more rights than pregnant women? I mean, I'm pretty sure that you would think that your rights were being infringed if the state compelled you to read the bible before allowing you to have kidney surgery.

You're right: equal protection does apply. But the right that is being infringed is free speech. You have the right to decide which information/messages you wish to receive, and which you do not -- and to act on your own choices. So do pregnant women.

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You're damn right I would.

"I mean, I'm pretty sure that you would think that your rights were being infringed if the state compelled you to read the bible before allowing you to have kidney surgery."

You're damn right I would. However, the right I was claim was being infringed would not be my first ammendment right to freedom of speech.
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