Fat is a feminist issue

[the Princess]

I don't know if you have tackled this issue here but I am so angry by the thread that was locked in the Lounge about the Kirstie Alley show *Fat Actress*.

This fucking patriarchal society still wants women to be in their place and they still want fat women to be the bottom of the barrel. Women are not allowed to take up space.

After that thread I have had it with the so called "enlightened liberals" here on DU.

[maggiecleveland]

1. Uh?

What are you saying?

[the Princess]

2. I said exactly what I meant.

[wtmusic]

4. More than fat men? n/t

[the Princess]

8. OH much more then fat men

Men are allowed to be fat. Women are expected - no demanded - to be thin and if not they are made fun of - and even ostracized - so much more then fat men.

Is that a real question?? LOL

[Lone Pawn]

40. Yeah, it is a real question.

I think men are under the same image demands that women are. Please, be so kind as to explain the difference.

Preferably with statistics and not laughter. Because really, laughter doesn't prove anything.

[Heddi]

58. Here's some statistics

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, two out of every 100 men have an eating disorder.

5% of young women have substantially disordered eating attitudes and behaviors. (National Eating Disorder Screening Program)

The average woman is 5"4’ and weighs 140 pounds. The average model is 5"11’ and weighs 117 pounds. Most fashion models are thinner than 98% of American women. (Smolak, 1996)

The mortality rate for anorexia is higher than for any other psychological disorder. In fact, it’s the number one cause of death among young women


# Approximately 7 million girls and women struggle with eating disorders
# Approximately 1 million boys and men struggle with eating disorders

Studies indicate that by their first year of college, 4.5 to 18% of women and 0.4% of men have a history of bulimia.

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/eatdis.htm

Eating disorders most often affect young women. Less than 10% of people with eating disorders are boys and men.

http://www.state.sc.us/dmh/anorexia/statistics.htm
It is estimated that 8 million Americans have an eating disorder – seven million women and one million men

# One in 200 American women suffers from anorexia
# Two to three in 100 American women suffers from bulimia

[maggiecleveland]

13. I know many

Curvaceous/rubenesque woman who quite attractive, it is all in how they carry themselves....

[the Princess]

16. That is the most rediculous response to what I have posted.

And you know it don't you. I'm not biting!

[maggiecleveland]

17. Now I'm confused...

I was just saying something...did it not come out right?

[BrklynLiberal]

3. I remember that book from about 20 years ago..I may still have it.

[cheezus]

5. you implying that feminists are fat chicks?

I personally know many healthy women AND men who are feminists, myself included!

[etherealtruth]

7. That was not the concept of fat as a feminist issue

The issue is that our society is much more demeaning to overweight women than they are to men of proportional weight.

[salvorhardin]

11. While I agree

that society is much more perverse in its' discrimation towards fat women, there is a great deal of discrimination against fat men as well. I think the discrimation towards fat women stands out more because it is constantly played out in the media. Discrimation against fat men just tends to be more subtle.

I'l probably get flamed for this.

[the Princess]

14. OK so lets see

Fat men still get:

Good paying jobs
marry thin beautiful women rather than fat beautiful women
head up big companies
Take leadership roles in government
Become rich and famous and are considered sexy and desireable
And even become President of our country



Fat women:

Are ostracized by society in general
Have more unemployed and underemployed members of any other group in the US
And constantly told they are undesireable
And verbalyy accosted on teh streets of our country
If they are actresses they play the funny yet un-sexy best friend
If they are on TV they are the frumpy wife married to a fat man - never a sexy thin man as fat men on TV are.
Have yet to gain acceptance in this society


etc, etc. etc.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freeplessinseattle]

23. speaking as a 105 lb female who eats more than her overweight

friends, and smokes, I must say that looks can be deceptive.

[etherealtruth]

27. Been there and done that...

Quit smoking a year ago and gained ~ 40lbs. All this while running 5x a week... I think I waited too long to quit (I guess it's always too long, but...). Waited 'til middle age (42).

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murray hill farm]

29. OK...so u chewed me up..ha

i believe that there are conditions that create the situation that you refer to where for scientific reasons, illnesses, genetics, etc. will make it impossible to loose wt. No, i am not an endocrinologist, but 40 yrs ago, i did have a complete thyroidectomy..so i do have much experience of being one of those folks who for medical and endocrinoligical reasons have a very difficult time with wt gain and loss. I think folks such as myself are a small minority of "fat" folks...and even so...it is not impossible to remain thin...just more difficult to do and maintain. Yes, genetics do play , but almost always it is the distribution of wt that plays the largest genetic contribution..rather than an impossiblity to loose wt in general. And last, of course i speak for myself when i say that fat is not attractive...but i am a member of the world..been here a good while...and if i guess that most people do not find fatness attractive...i would bet that i am correct...for, of course not 100%, but probably a good 95%+ of them. You know this is true! Or you would not react so strongly to even a show called "Fat Actress".

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murray hill farm]

64. OK, then!

But i never said that..that if "they stopped eating so much they would be thin"...i just said that while it is difficult to loose wt, it is possible to do..and i would recommend medical counseling and advise in that pursuit. I am not a product of "thin is in"...but was saying that i did not completely agree with the origional post..just my opinion. No, i am not a medical doctor, but i spent many years as a registered nurse..long ago, i admit before i returned to graduate school..and spent the rest of my career as a private practice psychologist..and retired not that many years ago. I have worked with all kinds of folks..including those who were overwt...and i am familiar with denial and all of the rationales that are used to keep at person from actually doing something to actually loose wt. I agree, there are some conditions medically that make this a very difficult thing to do, but it can be done. If one chooses not to do what they can to loose wt when it is medically important for health...or just because they do not want to loose wt..then that is their choice, but then that person should also understand the consequenses of that decision..including the social and medical consequenses.

[the Princess]

68. OK

You said:
"But i never said that..that if "they stopped eating so much they would be thin"...i just said that while it is difficult to loose wt, it is possible to do..and i would recommend medical counseling and advise in that pursuit."

Would you like a listing of the many many many Doctors and therapist I have been to over the 44 years of my life?? Would you like to know how many diets I have been on? All of them BTW. Would you like an estimate of the thousands of dollars I have spent on diets and counselors and Dr's etc,. etc.

It's not as simple as "Anyone can lose weight." Some of us Can't. Period.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murray hill farm]

101. OK, then...

i am wrong, u are right...fat people are very attractive ..u cannot loose wt...never..cant do it....i am a meanie...i am bad...u are good.

[salvorhardin]

25. You're right and you're wrong

You're right in that one of the biases against fat people is that they are perceived as making unhealthy lifestyle choices. That's largely a manufactured perception. The reasons why people are fat are as diverse as the reasons why some people are much skinnier than the norm. Rarely does it relate to "unhealthy lifestyle choices". The scientific evidence for this statement is overwhelming. Much of what people think they know about fat is manipulated opinion.

Sandy Szwarc has been writing an excellent series of columns on obesity over at Tech Central Station. I'd suggest starting with this one.

On Obesity, What the Researchers Didn't Find
By Sandy Szwarc

<snip>

One of the country's foremost obesity researchers, Jeffrey M. Friedman, M.D., head of the Laboratory of Molecular Genetics at Rockefeller University explains that the commonly-held simplistic belief that obesity is just a matter of eating too much and/or not exercising enough is "at odds with substantial scientific evidence illuminating a precise and powerful biologic system." According to his research and that of numerous others, obesity is the result of differences in biology and metabolism, not behavior, diet or the environment. Through their own volition, people can control their weight long-term to a very small degree. Even voluntary physical exercise has minimal effect, according to Friedman and Glenn Gaesser, PhD., exercise physiologist and obesity researcher at the University of Virginia. So, while better access to foods can account for some of the increases seen in the average height and weight of all people in developed countries -- 7 to 10 pounds in the U.S. since 1980s -- it's genetics and not the environment that accounts for the largest proportion of the differences in size among people, Friedman explains.

"The propensity to obesity is, to a significant extent, genetically determined," he says. Someone genetically predisposed to obesity "will become obese independent of their caloric intake" even when it's restricted to that of thin counterparts. "The heritability of obesity is equivalent to that of height and greater than that of almost every other condition that has been studied," Friedman states.

more...
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100704F.html

[Beaverhausen]

21. I disagree that fat men aren't also discriminated against

Can you name any fat famous CEOs?

Fat government leaders?

Yes, Clinton was overweight and he was constantly criticized for it. As was/is Rush Limbaugh. Rush lost weight and we still call him fat.

But I think on the whole the discrimination crosses gender lines.

[the Princess]

28. I never said they didn't suffer prejudice

They do but not NEARLY the amount that women do.

[Heddi]

32. Fat Gov't Leaders

Ariel Sharon for one

[CO Liberal]

106. William Howard Taft

300 pounds. US President and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

[stevedeshazer]

33. What an incredible overgeneralization

Care to give this unemployed fat guy some facts?

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Geez. :(

[SoCalDem]

36. In the end it usually comes down to MONEY in all issues

Women (except for the FEW highly paid female actors) are paid less.. It's sad, but in a money-dominated society, money really matters..

A very nice overweight file clerk will NOT have a dropdeadgorgeous young model hanging all over him..

Women with money are less likely to seek out the young hunky studly guys, because once a woman HAS real money, she doesn't "need" a man :)

Look at all the rich widows you have known...most of them never remarry, because when they have money, they can PAY people to do things for them.. Men ALWAYS want the pretty girl, even if she's only after his wallet :)

[RoeBear]

48. Just waht do you mean by fat?

Are we talking a few pounds over ideal weight or morbidly obese?

[etherealtruth]

20. I think guys face other biases...

... you face biases r/t height---know any male CEO's under 5'8", how about under 5'6"... I don't think the fat bias "kicks in" with men until they reach obesity. Male or female it's not "fair".

[salvorhardin]

22. That's all I was trying to say

Men are discriminated against, just in different ways. Our discrimination doesn't usually play out in the mass media though -- it tends to be more subtle, which is why I termed the discrimination against fat women as "perverse". It is perverse.

[CO Liberal]

107. I Can Name Two Offhand

Malik Hassan, former CEO of Foundation health Systems and teh CEO of Wellpoint (a company that was under merger talks with Foundation when I worked there. They were both around five foot three.

[girl gone mad]

31. Society is more demeaning to women of all weights..

than to men.

Men are sort of invisible in this society, in terms of appearance. Women are much more scrutinized, particularly young women. We encourage it, consciously or not, by wearing make up and dressing fashionably. Kirstie Ally probably owes her career to the double standard.

Maybe you focus on the fat issue because it effects you personally. I know women that would prefer being overweight to whatever flaw (real or perceived) they think is holding them back.

[RoeBear]

56. Now the tough question..

are men the greater critics of women's appearance or are women toughest on their own gender?

[the Princess]

90. Women are tougher

JMO.

[the Princess]

9. OMG

How in the world did you get that from what I posted???

[CO Liberal]

105. Are You Implying That All Fat People Are Not Healthy????

I know many who eat right, exercize regularly, and are still fat. Your point?

[etherealtruth]

6. I quit smoking...

... and became Reubenesque. Lets control the rhetoric, if men are husky or chunky, but never fat---Let us be Zoftig or Reubenesque.

[the Princess]

10. I think we need to reclaim the word fat

So it can't be used against us anymore.

I'm fat - and proud.

[Beaverhausen]

18. I think that is what Kirstie Alley is trying to do with her show

I agree that there is still a big prejudice against overweight people but I disagree with your assessment of her show. She is also fat and proud- have you ever seen her Jenny Craig commercials? She says "Hey Jenny - I'm fat" over and over.

[the Princess]

26. She is not fat and proud

She is repulsed by her body. She has said so over and over again. She hates being fat and wants to be thin and "beautiful" again. Her words not mine.

The show was disgusting. Tell me how the ending of the show (which sticks in my head) where she is in her bathroom eating cake crying and saying in a little girl voice "I'm a pretty girl, I'm a pretty girl" makes her fat and proud. It was psychotic.

The show was not only demoralizing to fat women everywhere it was disturbing.

[Lone Pawn]

41. So don't watch it.

And let people who enjoy it watch it.
It's not fair of them to make you watch it.
It's not fair of you to tell them they can't.

[the Princess]

44. Don't put words in my mouth

I never said don't watch it. I said it's garbage and *I* won't watch it.

[RPM]

109. good - so dont watch it... and while you are at it heres some other things

1) dont watch mainstream entertainment - its all shit and its only meant to sell you something by making you feel bad. Ignore it.

2) dont listen to assholes who demean persons with weight issues - if they are so shallow and vapid as to think that weight has any impact on the quality of a persons character, then they probably arent worth talking to anyway; and if you have to talk to them (interview, etc.) wow them with something else (intelligence, conversationalism, charm, etc).

I can empathize - my brother is quite large and I can tell when others reaction to him is negative... Similarly, I am a man who began going bald in my early 20s. I know the crap that TV can make you feel like (damn, there are as many hair replacement ads as weightloss ads). And all those stats you mentioned about fat people not getting jobs, dates, etc. apply similarly to bald people. Nevertheless both my brother and I have made ourselfs happy by eschewing the mainstream vision of how we should look. And we certainly ignore idiots when we can.

I know its a hard thing to do, but you can only change the world by changing yourself. And these 2 steps are big ones in doing just that.

so in conclusion, F* Kirstie, the networks and everything else that is used by corporate america to try to sell me shit i will never buy.

[Love Bug]

12. Some of the comments on that thread pissed me off, too

Some just don't get it.

What is happening in shows like "Fat Actress" or a movie like "Shallow Hal" is that it is ok to indulge in fat jokes as long as a)there is a nice moral at the end, i.e., "It's inner beauty that counts" or b) the object of the fat jokes is ok with it. Well, it's not ok with me. I vote with my wallet and refuse to support those kinds of "entertainment."

Now, I don't believe in censorship. But people should be aware of what is going on and how they are being manipulated into hanging on to the old stereotypes.

Remember Foster Brooks the "drunk" comedian? Remember how people used to think that was humor? Once society became more aware of the tragic cost of drunken behavior that kind of humor, well, it just wasn't funny any more. I'd like to see that same awareness extended to "fat" humor. Hopefully, people will one day realize that fat jokes are hurtful and not funny, even if the object of the fat jokes doesn't care.

[the Princess]

15. AMEN!

[Lone Pawn]

38. Interesting argument.

You see, society abandoned drunk jokes because we realized that being drunk was so hazardous to one's health that it was no laughing matter--not to avoid offending drunks. Are you constructing a similar argument for fat people?

And did you seriously just say "X is hurtful even if nobody's hurt?"

[Medium Baby Jesus]

30. Did you see "Fat Actress"? great show n/t

[DarleenMB]

43. As another fattie, I found it hilarious!

I used to be thin like Kirstie but now, too. am fat. I'm sick of it but her show made me laugh so hard I cried. It was a much needed breath of fresh air. Bless her and her nasty mouth (hee hee). Loved the lost french fries.
:yourock:

I liked it so much I'm gonna switch from Starz to Showtime just so I can see it.

I sure wish I could have her "fuck off" attitude about the whole thing. Makes her a whole bunch healthier than me so maybe if I watch the show some it will rub off on me.

[wildeyed]

34. I saw a sticker on a car the other day that said

Be a Revolutionary - Love Your Body. Or something along those lines. I looked at it at it for a long time.

There is allot of money to be made off of women hating their bodies. Diet aids that don't work so you buy them over and over again. Plastic surgery. I'm not buying into the hype.

I think you are right about other women being nastier about weight issues than men. I have been many different sizes before, during and after my pregnancies. Men seemed to be interested, regardless, but the women could be so catty when I was heavier.

[Heddi]

35. Let's compare fat actors to fat actresses

Fat Actors (male)
Jason Alexander
Jack Black
Kevin James (King of Queens)
John Goodman
Drew Carrey
Wayne Knight (Newmann on Seinfeld)
The guy from cheers
George Wendt (Cheers)
Jackie Gleason


Below are men who are have starring roles in Network TV shows that are currently on. Please note that for everyone EXCEPT william shatner, all of these portly men are married to VERY much thin women

William SHatner (boston legal)
Kevin James (King of Queens)
Jason Alexander (Lighten Up)
Mark Addy (Still Standing)
Mike O'Malley (Yes, Dear)

Those are just the top 3 networks ( Actually just CBS and ABC...couldn't find any on NBC).

Not ONE NETWORK had a fat woman with a leading role. No fat women married to thin men. Not even a woman who was slightly-larger-than-a-size-1. Nope. None. Nada.

But noooo....there's no double standard there in portrayal of overweight individuals on TV. :eyes:

[the Princess]

45. You proved my point

But see We are suppose to just shut the fuck up and lose some weight. LMAO

[Lone Pawn]

47. Proved your point...

because television is reality?

I thought we were talking about the oppression of fat people in real life, not the oppression of fat people on the magic flickering light box.

[Heddi]

51. So why it is it more acceptable for a fat man to have a leading role

than a fat woman?

Oh I'm sorry---men aren't fat...they're PORTLY. THey're MANLY. It's all jiggly muscle.

:eyes:

[the Princess]

55. That's right it's not FAT on a man

It's MUSCLE!!!!! LMAO

[Lone Pawn]

61. I have never heard anyone say that.

You're attacking air.

[Heddi]

73. You've not spent alot of time around obese men then

It's a common 'excuse"

"uh, that's not fat...it's muscle"
"Granddad, muscle doesn't jiggle"

[Lone Pawn]

59. Because the fat men who watch

and feel inadequate fantasize about thin women being attracted to them. Fat women who feel inadequate fantasize about being thin.

It's marketing, and it's psych.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

57. Wow, you have an active imagination, don't you?

I'm a male of average weight who is currently dating a girl who, according to her BMI, is slightly overweight, but who according to me is beautiful. She tries to lose weight. I tell her she shouldn't, because, well, I find her sexy. I don't believe anything you've stated, I certainly don't hate fat people, and if I have mommy issues, they're certainly not present here.

What I am is instead someone who is irked by condescending rhetoric backed up by more of the same. If you want to be dismissive, it really doesn't make you look very good if you can't dismiss questions with "you could never understand it!" If you want to claim that fat women have it worse than fat men, cite some statistics or admit that it's POSSIBLE that fat men have it badly too.

Difference of opinion is discussion. What you seem to want is validation.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

78. First of all, the "sick of men"

comment was hyperbole. I admit it. It was rather the same sort of comment she directed at me--the dramatic overgeneralization. Not so amusing when it's turned around, is it?

Did I ever tell you how you should think or what you should feel or what you should do? No. Of course not. All I claimed, coming in here, was one thing--'it's not fair to shut people who disagree down simply because you assume that they couldn't add anything to the discussion.' Sorry that irked you.

[Heddi]

86. You were completely out of line in that post

and no one here is looking for anymore validation than ANYONE who starts a post is looking for validation. Usually, that's why people start posts--they want to discuss an issue with people who agree with them. That's not called validation--that's called having a conversation.

And the OP isn't telling ANYONE what they should or shouldn't do. She never said that no one should watch this show, or feel this way. All she did was post HER opinion on a subject and state the way SHE feels about it.

It gets irksome when someone who has no experience with what is being discussed comes into a conversation and starts posting about something they really don't know one whit about.

As a male, you have no idea what it's like to be a female.
As a thin person, you have no idea what it's like to be fat
As a white person, I have no idea what it's like to be black

That's not to say that people who don't have experience in X issue shouldn't post in the thread, but jsut have a little bit more...understanding that people that DO have experience in X issue often see things different...statistics and sources aside.

And you want her to cite references for this and that---why? She's voicing an opinion--not writing a disertation. I can say with all my heart that white males are the most discriminated group in the world, and I don't have a single resource to cite, but that doesn't change my opinion and it doesn't make it less valid to me and my experience.

This is a women's issue forum. As women, we see things differently than men do. WE experience things differently than men do. That doesn't mean that my experience can't be validated without a litany of resources to back me up, and it doesn't mean that my experience is any better or worse than someone whose experience CAN be backed up with research and citations.

[Lone Pawn]

89. That isn't what I was complaining about.

I was complaining about her shutting people down for suggesting that their experiences had shown different results. She claimed that such experiences were obviously untrue. I said that if you want to claim that your experience is universal truth, pull some statistics or show some respect for other peoples' opinions.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[the Princess]

77. I'm not sick of men (another argument used by misogynists)

As a matter of fact I LOVE men - men with brains - men with compassion - and men who treat me as an individual with a brain.

I am happily married and my best friend is a man (a straight man).

I always found that testes were a detriment to brain power in some men. They seems to draw the blood away from the big brain for SOME men.

[Lone Pawn]

83. But yet you don't want any men to appreciate you?

"Validation? From a man? Priceless!"
"and men who treat me as an individual with a brain." That would be validation. Everyone wants it.

And...um...why does the sexuality of your best friend matter? Making sure people know you have straight friends is an argument used by homophobes. Homophobe! HOMOPHOBE!


And how on Earth would you know that testes drained those men's brain power? Did you castrate them and then see if they got smarter? How do you know they weren't just idiots?

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

95. Yeah, asking you to back up insults is a bitch.

See ya.

[the Princess]

98. I don' thave to back up an opinion. LOL

[the Princess]

99. I don' thave to back up an opinion. LOL

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoeBear]

62. Shouldn't that be

LMFAO?

(I'm sorry I'm bad, very bad)

[Lone Pawn]

37. Prove it.

No, seriously. You're making a lot of wild generalizations here. So prove it.

Is your general complaint that women are statistically more ostracized for obesity than men are? I'd like some proof. Simply ridiculing anyone who thinks the situation isn't nearly as bad as you do doesn't exactly constitute an argument. I think it's not as bad as you say it is. So please prove it.

Are you complaining that people don't find fat women physically attractive? If so, give it up already. I've heard that argument before, and it's insane. Attacking people for preferences that they really can't control is victimization and nothing more.

Are you complaining that the media only shows skinny people? Fortunately and unfortunately, we live in a capitalist society. What you see is what people buy. And it's certainly not fair of you to demand that everyone cease buying things they enjoy buying because skinny people make you unconfortable.

Are you claiming that you can't help your weight? Maybe you can, maybe you can't. Certainly there is a genetic component. But yet when America's average weight and obesity rates are steadily increasing, I find it hard to believe that the sole cause is that America's genes are getting progressively worse.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

46. And I find it interesting

that you seem incapable of constructing an argument more compelling than
1. Assertion.
2. LOL.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

53. I never said you should lose weight.

Personally, I think you should be a fat man for ONE day - then maybe we can come to this discussion on a level ground.

"You have no idea what you're talking about" doesn't really work when you're trying to say that your experience is worse or better than anyone else's.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone Pawn]

63. *sigh* I'm saying that you can't simply say

"I'm worse, and I can imagine what it's like for you, but you certainly could never imagine what it's like for me."

[the Princess]

66. I never said that - YOU did.

Do not put words in my mouth - nor try to tell me what I meant.

[Lone Pawn]

72. Well, since you said

that no man could possibly understand your position, but also compared your own position with a man's--something you could not do without claiming you understood his position--you rather did say that.

[the Princess]

80. Nope never did

You said it.

[Lone Pawn]

85. So did you.

Any man who wants to tell me I should just lose weight is coming from a place of ignorance and I have no time nor tolerance for it.

there seem to be many more men who want to argue with me about an issue they have no idea about.

[the Princess]

96. And YOU said

that no man could possibly understand your position, but also compared your own position with a man's--something you could not do without claiming you understood his position--you rather did say that.

So which did I say?

[stevedeshazer]

71. Don't waste your time

She's provided zero basis for her flame-induced post.

Zero, zip, nada.

[the Princess]

81. Flame induced???????????????

Explain please?

[Barad Simith]

74. That's because...

...it's on the "Greatest Discussion Threads" with a rather inflammatory thread title.

[the Princess]

82. Fat is a Feminist issue is inflamatory????????????????????

It was the title of a fucking book! And it is!

[Barad Simith]

88. Standing alone, with no context, it is...

...because fat is an issue which also concerns men. That's what brought so many into this thread, IMO: finding it on the Greatest Discussion Threads page and wondering what was meant by the statement, "Fat is a feminist issue."

[the Princess]

93. Fat IS a feminist issue

Whether you want to admit it or not. Women take the brunt of the prejudice.

[Barad Simith]

100. I didn't even take a position

I posted a reply as to why I think so many men are in here.

I did say that fat is an issue which also concerns men. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[Heddi]

102. You're right. It does affect men

and having known ALOT of fat men AND women in my life, the experiences that fat men have are alot different, and in many ways, alot less....judgemental than what fat women have.

Example---in high school, fat boys were IMMEDIATELY recruited for football team. It didn't matter if they had the skill to play football--they were utilized for their sheer weight to knock down other team members.

But there wasn't any rush to recuit the fat girls in my school for anything. There was no place of acceptance for the fat girls. Fat girls in school were harassed MUCH more and MUCH nastier than the fat boys were.

In my experience in the workforce--I've worked in sales nearly ALL of my working career.

Women that are hired in outside sales are thin, tall, petite, big boobs, tight skirts.

ALL of the men (and I say this WITHOUT exeption) that worked in outside sales were overweight. THey didn't have to have a great figure. But the women did.

*I* am only about 40lbs over my 'ideal' body weight (my own ideal, not the BMI ideal), and I have been turned down for retail jobs working directly with the public while overweight men who are FAR more overweight than I am are working right on the floor with customers. I had a manager tell me (upon telling me that I wasn't hired) that it gave a bad image for their company to have someone that "looked like me" selling their product.

Girls and women suffer far more from body dysmorphic disorder and from eating disorders than boys and men do (I posted statistics futher up in the thread---1% of men suffer from eating disorders, up to 18% of women do)

http://www.obesityhelp.com/main-info-statistics.php

Overweight adult females
32 million, as of 1990

Overweight adult males
26 million, as of 1990

Percentage of adult American women trying to lose weight at any given time: 35-40 percent

Percentage of adult American men trying to lose weight at any given time: 20-24 percent

http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/B262B5D739AB2E5385256F2D004F7503
----

Women are generally portrayed in the media (television, magazines, advertisements, movies) as being thin, fit, and young. It's much more normal to see an overweight or obese man in advertisments, magazines, movies, television, than it is to see an overweight or obese woman.

For women, we're constantly told throughout our lives (sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly) that our worth as humans is directly equal to our attractiveness. We're told we must be as thin and as pretty as possible to be a valued member of society.

There are dozens of magazines aimed at young girls which show nothing but thin models with airbrushed proportions and facial features. The constant reinforcement that THIN IS IN is ingrained in women from early infancy through death.

There IS pressure on men to fit a certain mold, but I just don't think (through my experience talking with and knowing overweight men) that the pressure is AS high as it is for females.

I'm trying now to find the statistics of genders when it comes to weight-loss surgery and medical interventions. Seeing all the other statistics, I'd be surprised if more women didn't seek medical help (either surgically or pharmacologically) for weight loss than men did.

[Heddi]

103. Trends in Bariatric Surgery in Wisconsin

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:aEoEOKnL0jIJ:www.pophealth.wisc.edu/wphi/publications/working%2520papers/Trends%2520in%2520bariatric%2520surgery%2520for%2520morbid%2520obesity%2520in%2520Wiscosin.pdf+Female+Weight+Loss+Surgery+Statistics&hl=en

Women were more likely to have gastric bypass surgery, with over 85% of surgeries in 2001 and 87% of those in 2002 being performed on women.

Rates of gastric bypass surgery per 10,000 population and rates of gastric bypass surgery per 10,000 morbidly obese were greater among females in all age categories. For males 35-54, there were 28 bariatric surgeries per 10,000 morbidly obese. However for females 35-54, 93 bariatric surgeries were performed per 10,000 morbidly obese (Table 2). A morbidly obese female is more likely to have bariatric surgery than a morbidly obese male. Females age 18-34 are 7 times more likely, females age 35-54 are 3 times more likely, and those 55+ are 1.3 times more likely to undergo bariatric surgery than their age matched, morbidly obese male counterparts.

http://www.plasticsurgery.org/news_room/Procedural-Statistics-Press-Kit-Index.cfm

Women made up 82 percent of those who had cosmetic plastic surgery. Women chose liposuction most often in 2003, followed by breast augmentation, nose reshaping, eyelid surgery and facelift. The men’s top five cosmetic plastic surgery procedures for 2003 were nose reshaping, eyelid surgery, liposuction, hair transplantation for male-pattern baldness and facelift.

[Nikia]

104. I found this article, but I couldn't find the one I was looking for

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_3_33/ai_62215064
I found several other articles along the same lines, but not the one that I remember reading on Msn last year. Overweight women earn less than thin women. Overweight men earn more money than thin men. Obese men, depending on the study, earn slightly less than thin or overweight men. This article doesn't include all of that as the article I remember reading, but it does give "evidence" that heavy women suffer in a way that heavy men don't.

[Heddi]

108. here's another along the same line

http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/slater/weight1.htm

Studies indicate that opinions about fat people turn negative in childhood and stay negative: As early as nursery school, they have found, children prefer drawings of peers in wheelchairs, on crutches or with facial disfigurements to those of fat children.

ndeed, studies have shown that fat students are less likely to go to college and that their parents are less likely to pay for it; once there, they face still more hostile attitudes from their fellow students; a 1988 study found that students would rather marry an embezzler, a cocaine user, a shoplifter, or a blind person than an obese person.

Studies have found that fat white women tend to earn significantly less than their thinner counterparts. One study found that highly obese women earn 24 percent less, while the moderately obese earn about 6 percent less.

Another survey found that among 81 employers, about 16 percent considered obesity "an absolute bar to employment" and 44 percent considered it conditional medical grounds for passing over an applicant.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/con28.htm

It has also led to lower incomes ($6,700 a year less) and higher rates of poverty (10 percent higher) among obese women than among their nonobese peers (Gortmaker 1993). And it has negatively affected the wage increases of the obese: when they increase, they increase less rapidly than the wages of the nonobese (Averett 1994).

Studies show that fat children are less likely than
others to receive best-friend ratings from their classmates (Rothblum
1992). By the second grade, says Michael P. Levine, psychologist and
author of an NEA publication on adolescent eating disorders (1987),
children are using negative words to describe the silhouette of a fat
child: dirty, lazy, sloppy, ugly, and stupid. By the fourth grade, says an article in the Wall Street Journal, children are already saying: "Fat girls aren't like regular girls," and "They aren't attractive" (Rothblum 1992). Yearning to be thin, one little girl counts calories, a second drinks Diet Coke, and a third jogs "to get blubber off my legs."

A 1967 study shows negative effects of obesity on high school performance (Canning 1967). A 1966 study shows
that obese students, especially obese girls, are less likely than the
nonobese to be accepted by the more competitive colleges (Canning 1966). This is true even if the girls' grades, standardized test scores, and other variables are the same as for other boys and girls. Another study shows that obese girls have fewer dates and participate in fewer school activities than their thin classmates do (Bullin 1963).

Rothblum (1990) shows that fat students are more likely to
be refused letters of recommendation from faculty.

> Rated the resumes of obese women job applicants more negatively than
others, especially on supervisory potential (Rothblum 1990).

> Rated fat people last as marriage partners after embezzlers, cocaine
users, shoplifters, and blind people (Tiggemann 1988).

> Rated obese female telephone partners more negatively on social skills
and physical attractiveness than did the telephone partners of nonobese
women (Miller 1990)

[etherealtruth]

70. The Beauty Myth/ Naomi Wolfe

You might appreciate this:

http://homestar.org/bryannan/wolf.html

Edit: spelling