Formal Proposal for the "Pro-Women's Rights" Group on DU

[musette_sf]

This message is intended to be a formal proposal for the "Pro-Women's Rights" Group on Democratic Underground.

I propose that such a group is needed for the following reasons:

1. The Women's Rights group has become a place where openly sexist male DU members come to flame and make personal attacks on the women and feminist men who are interested in discussing women's rights issues.

2. The result of the above flaming and attacking has been, in recent weeks especially, locking of threads so that women and feminist men cannot discuss women's rights topics that the sexist men find objectionable. I have noted that some of the thread locking occurs when the sexist men take over threads that are reposts of articles on women's rights from other notable progressive news sites, such as AlterNet. Therefore the posting of these articles for discussion is valid within the forum. The locking occurs when the sexist men come to the Women's Rights group and deliberately post flames and insults on these discussion threads.

3. Another result of the above flaming and attacking has been, in recent weeks especially, deletion of threads and sub-threads so that women and feminist men cannot continue to discuss women's rights topics that the sexist men find objectionable. When women and feminist men post in the group voicing their opinions on the flaming, insulting, harassing posts from the sexist men, they are shut down by thread/sub-thread/post deletion.

4. The use of humor by women and feminist men to deflect the flames and insults also results in risking post deletion, thread deletion, and locking of threads.

5. Since the sexist men can't seem to refrain from posting inflammatory and insulting posts in the Women's Rights forum, the forum has become a place where women and feminist men risk post deletion, thread deletion, and locking of threads.

6. With the above in mind, it is my opinion that the Women's Rights forum is not a safe place for women and feminist men to discuss Women's Rights issues without harassment and interference from sexist men.

7. Since for some reason, the charter of the Women's Rights forum does not ban deliberate flames and harassing posts from sexist men, the time has come to charter a Pro-Women's Rights forum.

As you know, by DU rules I need 10 people to agree that the time has come for such a group. I hope for the support of the DU women and feminist men, who would like a forum to post and discuss Women's Rights issues without harassment and interference.

[niyad]

1. I agree. is there anything formal I need to do?

[beam me up scottie]

2. We started the Feminists Group for that very reason. Disruptors should be disciplined by the mods.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=341

The Mission Statement:

The purpose of the DU Feminists Group is to provide a safe and non-threatening community where all those interested in discussing and trying to resolve the problems that are inherent to women in society can come and work together free from defending the basic premise that issues do exist which specifically affect and limit women, their rights and their potential.

We believe that women do not start on the same rung as men on the ladder of success; that misogyny and sexism do indeed exist in America circa 2005; and that the progress made for women's rights is being seriously and immediately threatened by this administration.

The goal of this group is to understand the problems (and how they affect women), identify the myriad causes (and how they can limit a woman's vision and opportunity) and propose solutions (and how we can bring those solutions in a meaningful way out into the greater community).

About this Group

- This is not a group to discuss gender, class or sexual orientation rights and issues. It is specifically to discuss women's rights and issues as they affect women from a woman's perspective and experience.

- If, for example, you believe that women have already achieved "full participation in the mainstream of American society..., exercising all privileges and responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men... in all aspects of citizenship, public service, employment, education, and family life,"* then this is not the group for you.

- If, for example, you believe that women who have concerns about the prevalance of pornography in our society are uptight, sexually-repressed prudes who need to be enlightened to the "facts" and "realities" of the sex industry, this is not the group for you.

- The terms "feminist/feminism" and "misogyny" have established meanings in the context of women's history. While terminology may be debated, the denigration of these relevant terms will not be allowed.

- Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.

- Like-minded DUers of all genders are encouraged to participate.

[niyad]

3. thank you for letting me know about your group. had not noticed it before.

[beam me up scottie]

4. You're quite welcome.

It was long overdue.

[noamnety]

7. I'd be happy seeing everything moved to the feminist group.

The only concern I have is that folks without stars can't contribute. And since I plan on losing my star (thought I would have lost it by now) because this place is too misogynistic (and racist, homophobic, and DLCish) for me to donate to, that would effectively shut me down.

I don't think we can have rules like that, though, unless it's a group - which comes with the donation requirement.

To me, the women's rights group is pointless when we have both blatant anti-woman trolls, and concern-trolls who think they are "cleverly" disguising some asshat theory as being pro-women's rights.

A hint for the insight-impaired: If you've been posting some assholery here like "Maybe we can solve rape by having witnesses present for every act of sex that occurs so women stop falsely accusing men of rape" or "Maybe people are violent and threatening against women who demand equal rights because they are concerned the women want those rights for the wrong reasons" then there's a good chance you are the problem.

[beam me up scottie]

8. I know. But we've been through this before.

I agree with you but admin doesn't see it the same way. They allowed us to form a group so that we wouldn't be harassed constantly and they kept to their part of the bargain by banning posters who keep disrupting.

Maybe you could petition them to change the description of the groups and/or forums?




ps. I am on a very limited budget right now but it would be my pleasure to buy you a star. I consider it a sound investment since I love your posts and admire your 'take no prisoner' attitude.

You rock, Iwfern, DU would be that much poorer for losing you.

[Warpy]

34. The language police made me feel unwelcome there

so I post here.

[Captain_Nemo]

5. I'm in! n/t

[Boojatta]

6. A question about a detail in the wording...

The Women's Rights group has become a place where openly sexist male DU members come to flame and make personal attacks on the women and feminist men who are interested in discussing women's rights issues.

Does anything stand in the way of referring to "people who are supportive of women's rights and who are interested in discussing women's rights issues" rather than "women and feminist men (...)"?

It seems to be at least a theoretical possibility that at least one woman could be hostile to legal recognition of at least some women's rights.

If nothing stands in the way, then "openly sexist male DU members" could be correspondingly modified to identify attitude as the only issue: "DU members who oppose some women's rights."

I would say that I'm in, but it occurs to me that I might be one of the people who is thought to be flaming and making personal attacks. So I will phrase it as a question: am I welcome? Given the embattled tone of the Original Post, I'm willing to contribute my one to the required total of ten and then not actually post in the new forum, if that's the consensus preference.

[Katherine Brengle]

9. I'm on board with that. We shouldn't have to scamper off the the feminist group

which is more exclusionary by nature of needing to be a donor, which some people are not able to do, in order to avoid this kind of treatment.

Women's Rights issues are Human Rights issues, and should be treated as such rather than derided and belittled here on DU.

[Boojatta]

10. How would you feel about a "Human Rights" open forum on DU?

We shouldn't have to scamper off to the feminist group which is more exclusionary by nature of needing to be a donor, which some people are not able to do, in order to avoid this kind of treatment.

The main problem I see is that few people are likely to get a star primarily because they want to participate in a particular DU group. Some DUers who already have stars might participate, but most other DUers are likely to treat it as being like a small online newspaper that doesn't provide any section for letters to the editor.

Women's Rights issues are Human Rights issues, and should be treated as such rather than derided and belittled here on DU.

I agree. Perhaps someone could create a formal proposal for a "Human Rights" forum to be added to the list of open forums. It could, for example, focus on human rights issues around the world instead of having the primarily domestic focus of the Civil Liberties forum.

[Katherine Brengle]

11. Actually, that's a really good idea. DU doesn't already have a Human Rights

forum?

I'll have to go check.

[raccoon]

12. I think that's a good idea. Another suggestion, could we respond to the sexist men

starting inflammatory threads, or contributing to them, with:

"Flamebait alert," or something similar? When it's pure assholery such as post #7 referred to?

[Katherine Brengle]

13. I think one more thing should be clarified - there are also women who post here

who are not actually interested in women's rights - they should also be mentioned.

[ellenr]

14. What was the outcome of this? n/t

[musette_sf]

15. i realized after i posted

that just as we have "Choice" (anyone may post including MRAs) and "Pro-Choice" (no anti-choice posts permitted) forums, we do have the Feminism forum for a protected forum.

i just got so fed up with the MRAs and other assorted patriarchy-supporters posting in a "Women's Rights" group that i kind of went off on them one weekend.

[ellenr]

16. Where is the feminism forum? n/t

[musette_sf]

17. i think it requires a donor star for access n/t

[Boojatta]

18. Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Politics, Issues & Media » Feminists Group

You need a donor star to post in it, but I think you can read it without a donor star. Maybe I'm wrong. If I'm right, then you can go to Options and check it in MyForums or at least access it via the Lobby.

Edited to add: putting a check mark at it in MyForums should make for easier access than going through the Lobby.

[ellenr]

19. I'm new here - found out I have to donate to use the 'search' function

now I have to donate to read/post to a particular forum.

I don't think so.

Why that one, and not these others?

[Boojatta]

20. There's a distinction between "Discussion Forums"

(which includes a lot of forums) and "DU Groups." Only DU members who have stars can post in "DU Groups."

You don't necessarily have to donate to get a star. Someone else can buy one for you. (Preferably someone who has a credit card if you're not keen on waiting for a snail mail check or money order to clear.)

[Boojatta]

21. Regarding search:

You might find it helpful to bookmark threads you contributed to. Then you can check to see whether a discussion has resumed without needing the search function. You can simply use the bookmarking functionality of your browser.

[bliss_eternal]

22. I don't read here often...

...but the few times I've browsed, it's easy to see why you were frustrated.
I'm sincerely sorry things in this forum have got so bad.

:hug:

[musette_sf]

23. thanks bliss

i just generally shrug my shoulders now in this group when the MRAs, askers of pointless questions, and other disruptors come 'round. not worth dukin' it out with them. it seems obvious that the only reason they post here is to try and get some kind of argument going to take back to some other board or group where they can brag about how brave they are, trying to "reason" with women.

[bliss_eternal]

24. I hear you.

...and it's an astute assessment on your part, that much of it is insincere. I was surprised to see what it's turned into, as there was a time there were some good discussions here (or am I remembering wrong--lol).

It reminds me a lot of what Choice became. It's hard for me to even visit that forum.

[omega minimo]

25. women have retreated into invisibility

[bliss_eternal]

26. Hey you...

:hi: Good to see you!

[omega minimo]

32. you can see me?

:spray:

:yoiks: thot i was invisible....

[defendandprotect]

28. Looking at how inactive the feminist threads are . . .

actually, I think the usual is happening --- males have much more free time to post on websites ---

females have too much else to do ---

and they don't see this kind of self-expression and tracking of issues at this level, evidently, as being very important to them -- ?????

[noamnety]

29. I think we see it as important

but at the same time when the forum is being spammed and trolled, it's also a huge energy sink, as one of my friends says. And so we move elsewhere, to email lists, to forums in other locations, to blogs run by feminists, where we can be moving forward instead of backwards.

[defendandprotect]

30. I think we need an opportunity -- perhaps via personal mail --- to discuss some of these

issues and to come together ... UNITED ... to ask for changes we may need on DU --- ????

But, there have to be enough females to do that --- enough interested females --- ????

There's a difference between honest objects and challenges --- if permitted at all because
in some of these forums it's not permitted ---

and where there is trolling and gang trolling to knock out a thread ---

Also -- I strongly object to a thread being locked and those involved in discussion being penalized . . . I've seen it many times here overall at DU ---

What we have to push for is for the OFFENDER to be penalized ---

not those involved in real discussion ---

And --- OK --- if you have moved on and have better places, let us know where you're going and

what's being discussed --- move it in here, perhaps?

OK -- this may go no where right now --- but we're not going to get what we don't ask for --- !!!

[omega minimo]

33. appreciate your spirit

but it looks like #5 is the crux of the problem. if it isn't corrected, what does that tell ya?

"5. Since the sexist men can't seem to refrain from posting inflammatory and insulting posts in the Women's Rights forum, the forum has become a place where women and feminist men risk post deletion, thread deletion, and locking of threads."






The fractured and fractious presence of women and women's issues here is indicative of how far the clock has been turned back on what once was "progressive." Fighting over basic concepts becomes pointless. Education is needed.

[defendandprotect]

27. Why aren't the moderators stepping in to stop this --- ????

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

31. Read down the thread, see there's a group.

I really like some of the suggestions in the OP.

Women and men who want to discuss these essential to humankind issues should be able to do so.

MKJ