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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:22 AM
Original message
Maybe I just
don't get it. But who gets satisfaction from denying people health care and food. How could anybody possibly vote against a universal health care plan? A vote against health care for the uninsured is saying " I wish you were dead ". And insurance is health care. If you don't have insurance you don't get to see a doctor. You might get into the emergency room, but you will never seer a doctor for a follow up if you don't have insurance. I will grant that there are some minor insignificant sensational exceptions.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here is your answer!
Health-Care Reform Could Kill the GOP
Bill Kristol was right to panic.

*
By THOMAS FRANK

Columnist's name

Can policy be both wise and aggressively partisan? Ask any Republican worth his salt and the answer will be an unequivocal yes. Ask a Democrat of the respectable Beltway variety and he will twist himself into a pretzel denying it.

For decades Republicans have made policy with a higher purpose in mind: to solidify the GOP base or to damage the institutions and movements aligned with the other side. One of their fondest slogans is "Defund the Left," and under that banner they have attacked labor unions and trial lawyers and tried to sever the links between the lobbying industry and the Democratic Party. Consider as well their long-cherished dreams of privatizing Social Security, which would make Wall Street, instead of Washington, the protector of our beloved seniors. Or their larger effort to demonstrate, by means of egregious misrule, that government is incapable of delivering the most basic services.

That these were all disastrous policies made no difference: The goal was to use state power to achieve lasting victory for the ideas of the right.

On the other side of the political fence, strategic moves of this kind are fairly rare. Instead, for most of my lifetime, prominent Democratic leaders have been chucking liberalism itself for the sake of immediate tactical gain.

Former President Bill Clinton, who is widely regarded as a political mastermind, may have sounded like a traditional liberal at the beginning of his term in office. But what ultimately defined his presidency was his amazing pliability on matters of principle. His most memorable innovation was "triangulating" between his own party and the right, his most famous speech declared and end to "the era of big government," his most consequential policy move was to cement the consensus on deregulation and free trade, and many of his boldest stands were taken against his own party.

The results were not pretty, either for the Democrats or for the nation.

Still, conservatives have always dreaded the day that Democrats discover (or rediscover) that there is a happy political synergy between delivering liberal economic reforms and building the liberal movement. The classic statement of this fear is a famous memo that Bill Kristol wrote in 1993, when he had just started out as a political strategist and the Clinton administration was preparing to propose some version of national health care.

"The plan should not be amended; it should be erased," Mr. Kristol advised the GOP. And not merely because Mr. Clinton's scheme was (in Mr. Kristol's view) bad policy, but because "it will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests."

Historian Rick Perlstein suggests that this memo is "the skeleton key to understanding modern American politics" because it opens up a fundamental conservative anxiety: "If the Democrats succeed in redistributing economic power, we're screwed."

In the Clinton years, of course, it was the Republicans who succeeded. And the Democrats' failure -- the failure to deliver national health care that is, not the act of proposing national health care -- was a crucial element, in Mr. Perlstein's view, in the Republican Revolution of 1994. Assessing the accomplishments of the "party of the people" after those first months of Clintonism, middle-class Americans were left with what? A big helping of Nafta. Mmm-mmm.

Fourteen years later, we find ourselves at the same point in the political debate, with a Democratic president-elect promising to deliver some variety of health-care reform. And, like a cuckoo emerging from a clock, Mr. Kristol's old refrain is promptly taken up by a new chorus. "Blocking Obama's Health Plan Is Key to the GOP's Survival," proclaims the headline of a November blog post by Michael F. Cannon, the libertarian Cato Institute's director of Health Policy Studies. His argument, stitched together from other blog posts, is pretty much the same as Mr. Kristol's in 1993. Any kind of national medical program would be so powerfully attractive to working-class voters that it would shift the tectonic plates of the nation's politics. Therefore, such a program must be stopped.

Liberal that I am, I support health-care reform on its merits alone. My liberal blood boils, for example, when I read that half of the personal bankruptcies in this country are brought on, in part, by medical expenses. And my liberal soul is soothed to find that an enormous majority of my fellow citizens agree, in general terms, with my views on this subject.

But it pleases me even more to think that the conservatives' nightmare of permanent defeat might come true simply if Democrats do the right thing. No, health-care reform isn't as strategically diabolical as, say, the K Street Project. It involves only the most straightforward politics: good government stepping in to heal an ancient, festering wound. But if by doing this Barack Obama also happens to nullify decades of conservative propaganda, so much the better for all of us.

Write to thomas@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122826686559774533.html#
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Even the GOP's own (relatively twisted) logic
should lead toward national healthcare. A healthy nation is a nation at work. A nation at work is a productive nation. A productive nation is a prosperous and even profitable nation.

Fucking duh.

I supposed they can only be short-sighted when all the farther they can see is the warm, velvety cocoon of their own arseholes as they climb deeper and deeper within them. Maybe if they climb just a little deeper in them and jump, they'll disappear.

It's a fond wish of mine.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. None of the following are goals of the republicans. "A healthy nation is a nation at work. A nation
.... at work is a productive nation. A productive nation is a prosperous and even profitable nation." republicans see an unhealthy nation as easier to plunder.
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Perzakkaly
They say one thing, then they do something else entirely. How anyone swallows their rubbish is beyond me.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Most people, as Col. Jessup once said, "....can't handle the truth."
By the way, "perzakkaly" isn't in wikidictionary. You shuld add it.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Share value and bonuses for themselves, fuck the working stiff!
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Lack of health insurance keeps people poor and dependent on company group plans,
where they remain compliant for fear of getting fired and losing health benefits.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. These are the same people who ship jobs overseas, they don't give a damn
about Americans at work, only cheap foreign labor and higher profits.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. I agree. IME, some people who have Medicare or group ins. through their employer

and are against national health care are just like, "Fuck you. I've got insurance, better you than me not having any insurance."

They don't SAY it, but it's implied. :puke:




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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Then they lose their coverage and realize that REAL terror,
is having a stroke or discovering a tumor the day AFTER your COBRA coverage expires.:scared:
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes I wonder that all the time also
Last summer I made calls for a group working for universal health care. Our focus was to elect local politicians who favored universal HC. We were persuasive calls geared to Repubs and independents.
Some of the things I heard were appalling. Mostly it fit into two categories. One was the above mentioned "I got mine and yours is your problem." The other was the kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest claim. That is that if people didn't have insurance they must not be morally fit. These people were really strange. I would often take the conversation up a level then to see if they knew if they were covered for everything and how high their limits were. I usually got no real answer and suggested they best check since people usually don't find out that they are not covered until AFTER the emergency.
UHC first failed in 1948 I believe. The major reason then was that UHC would force hospitals to integrate. Here we are 60 years later and the idea that some one undeserving will get something and not "pay" for it is still the underlying reason for opposition. And to stop UHC Repugs will raise class and race cards like they never have before.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. I have been studying this for years now - since my son developed MS - and found this out...
Maybe you know this but it was Nixon who started this whole HMO crap!

http://www.habitablezone.com/currentevents/messages/473331.html

February 17, 1971
5:30 p.m.

Ehrlichman: "We have now narrowed down the vice president's problem on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these Health Maintenance Organizations like Edgar Kaiser's Permanente thing."

Nixon: "Now let me ask you...you know I'm not too keen on any of these damn medical programs."

Ehrlichman: "This is a private enterprise one."

Nixon: "Well that appeals to me."

Ehrlichman: "Edgar Kaiser is running this Permanente deal for profit and the reason he can do it...I had Edgar Kaiser come in, talk to me about this, and I went into some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care. Because the less care they give them, the more money they make."

Nixon: "Fine."

Ehrlichman: "...and the incentives run the right way."

Nixon: "Not bad."

.......

w8liftinglady posted this on the HMO profits in 2007:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4752626&mesg_id=4752626

Thirteen billion dollars. This is the sum profits for the top 13 health insurers in the U.S. in 2007. Despite this, the United States ranks 19th in the world for deaths by preventable diseases. The United States spends roughly $7,126 per capita in heath costs, and yet has one of the poorest performance in the organized world. This can be attributed to several things. Private insurers waste up to one-third of their costs on things that have nothing to do with healthcare: overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay. Doctors and hospitals must maintain huge staffs to deal with this bureaucracy. Combined, this needless administration consumes one-third of America’s healthcare dollars. Add to that the fact that 47 million Americans are uninsured (with that number sure to grow), and you have a crisis.

.......

Doesn't it all go back to GREED?
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Remember
Prejudice is not limited to the legal definitions. Some people don't like people because they are short, fat, not as pretty, smarter, dumber and some people just don't like other people. Don't care if they live or die.
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. They believe most health problems are self-induced
I have heard conservatives call in to AAR shows about this, and they are always asking why they should have to pay for health problems that others "bring on themselves" because of their "lifestyle." They seem to believe that only a minority of health problems are caused by genetics or chance and not lifestyle.

I think this is why Obama's focus on prevention is a good thing; he may be able to get through to this segment of the population.

I think another way to get though to them is to point out that infectious diseases are a national health problem.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Rationalization is the key to happiness and ignorance is bliss. nm
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Well, it would be nice if the next time they called 911 to report that their house was on fire--
--the operator said "Before we send a truck out, we need to know if you stored oily rags in the basement, stopped your kids from playing with matches, and wired your house according to code."

This notion that health care expenses are due to bad behavior are nonsense. 5% of the population accounts for half the expenses, and 20% for 85% of the expenses. Therefore it does not matter jackshit what the other 89% does--it will have no effect on these expenses.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Add to that, "We need to first have proof of your fire department insurance paid to date".
It's all crazy, but people won't stand up and fight it.

They gripe to each other instead.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. There are many that fear that to feed the starving would take food off their table.
Same for health care.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. I wholeheartedly agree.
:(

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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. It's called "social Darwinism."
A vote against health care for the uninsured is saying " I wish you were dead ".
Yes, that is exactly what it is. For social Darwinists, the "weak" are to be weeded out through natural selection. In their cruel minds, this improves conditions for the "strong."

Most social Darwinists do not realize this is what they actually espouse - and that's the danger of it. We are conditioned into social Darwinism by the competitive culture, and it is promoted as a positive American value.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. When Obama starts health care talks
I want to watch and see who are the people that say " I wish you were dead " to the poor.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. Weird mental disconnect...
...when it comes to Evil Govt. Programs that smack of welfare.

A perfect example was a comment made about former Pres. Gerald Ford, by a Democrat who often worked with him in Congress. Quoting from memory:

"I know Jerry Ford's not a heartless man. If he saw a hungry kid, I believe Jerry would give the kid his own lunch.

But we could never make him understand that when he voted against the School Lunch Program, he was making a lot of kids go hungry."
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. The health insurance, pharma, and medical technology industry
who profit from the privatization of health care in the United States. One negative consequence of stable stratification is that populations commonly living within the same class over multiple generations. Therefore, they are raised in closely confined groups that teach them about their class attributes.

For example, the ruling class (generational groups that hold legislative and government offices) believe themselves to play a more important role in society than the average citizen. They believe themselves to be the shapers of history and the shapers of the future. Others, us average people, are replaceable. The violence that they perpetrate on average people is a unfortunate function of power. It is justified by their perceived responsibility to "do something great", "have an enduring legacy", and "make a better world for the average person". Therefore, loss of life is a part of the process and not abnormal.

As you can see, the economic elite who occupy positions of power in the health industry perceive themselves along similar lines. They tell themselves and others that what is occurring is necessary, that the suffer of average people throughout history is the reason we are as advanced as we are. Modernization is built upon the backs of the average and guided by the power, in their eyes.

Obviously, we disagree. And, of course, their are examples of average people who change the course of history in more significant ways the the e-elite or ruling class. It is easy to harm, when you are convinced that it is justified and the people you harm rarely stand before you. Bringing humans closer to humans and destroying some of these myths seems to be an accurate way to enact some change. How we can go about this is another question all together.
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