Genuine and fake friendliness, and hurtful accusations

[carolinayellowdog]

Hey,

A lot of the things said on DU attacking the South make me angry, or dismissive, when they're clearly based on ignorance and prejudice. But one theme that recurs on DU really bothers me deeply and hurts a lot. That's the Yankees who say "those Southerners aren't really friendly, it's all fake, it's all superficial, it's meanness with a polite veneer." That produces an AAARGH feeling more despairing than any of the "I wish we were in separate countries" bull because it runs SO counter to my experience. We bend over backwards to be nice and get kicked in the teeth for it, that's how I feel when I read this stuff.

I work in a public service job in a rural community in Piedmont VA, and spend a lot of time in the NC Piedmont rural and urban. I can say without reservation that people of both races in this region are the warmest, friendliest, kindest, most caring folks I've ever encountered anywhere. (I moved here from the Hampton Roads area which doesn't come close.) ANYONE OF ANY RACE waves to strangers as they drive by; people expect to be treated with respect and kindness and their expectations are fulfilled. Sure, there's an element of courtliness and tradition that means it's not PERSONALLY meaningful when someone smiles at you and treats you kindly-- they're respecting you as a HUMAN BEING. A friend from Ithaca NY who was temporarily in Durham said he was quite startled by the warmth between the races there. E.g. a black supermarket clerk telling a white mom in a checkout line how sweet her baby was-- something he said would NEVER happen up there.

I've lived in the Deep South-- Louisiana and Alabama-- and must say the friendliness down there doesn't seem quite as genuine, in that social distance and tension between the races seems a lot greater. I always wonder how nice they'd be to me if I weren't white. In Alabama I felt that the women were just fine but many of the men had a hard edge of redneck scariness different from what I'd experienced in VA, NC, or LA. Have also lived in Michigan and Ohio and never had cause to complain about unfriendliness or rudeness there. Nor in travels in the West, where folks seem genuinely warm and welcoming.

Lots of people complain about the rudeness of the French, but in many visits to France I always found them very warm and welcoming too. Same with most other places in Europe I've visited (not Germany though) and most definitely in India, Mexico, Canada, and elsewhere in Latin America. In fact, the only place I've found people generally to be mean, cold, rude, heartless, nasty bastards is Boston-- although SOME New Yorkers fit the bill most don't. I don't generalize Bostonian obnoxiousness to New England because I spent a winter in rural Vermont and found no such ugliness there.

There are many layers of potential misunderstanding in the issue of who's friendly and who isn't. I'm posting these ramblings in hopes that some of y'all can comment on what friendliness and hospitality are and aren't and how such misunderstandings can occur. Where have you felt rudely or kindly treated? What could make Yankees imagine we're being fake when we're being our most genuine and welcoming selves?

CYD

[Ripley]

1. Okay, this is keeping me interested.

Yes, there are lots of layers and misunderstandings that some folks run with in the wrong direction.

Some non-Southerners seem to get pissed when they come down here when someone at the grocery store says "yes, Mam or Sir." I don't get why they are pissed. It's one of those local things. Go on with your life...it does not mean anything other than the person who said it grew up with those type of manners. It is not a matter of submission to BIG BROTHER, it is simply the way a lot of people here believe you should politely address other people.

But they twist that shit up don't they?

[dbt]

2. You can strike up a conversation with total strangers in the South.

Sometimes I do it just to see if it's "stopped working" yet, but it still holds true for the most part. Now there are assholes everywhere; people who don't care if you live or die. You can't even get a grunt in return from them, but so what? Reckon they'll always be around.

I think the Southern friendliness is genuine, although we do have layers of veneer that defy explanation. We seem to get some conditioning as children to be polite and respectful, which I think may not be given the same emphasis in large urban areas. For instance, the word "ma'am" seemed downright offensive when I used it in Phoenix in the early 90s. Women also seem irritated when I would hold a door for them. I put it down to culture shock.

You bring up an interesting point about North Carolina, how people wave to you when you drive by. I was quite accustomed to that as a child and a teenager in rural Arkansas; I moved to Little Rock and didn't see it for thirty years. Then, on a trip to the west of Ireland, there it was again! I'd be driving leisurely down the wrong damn side of the road and oncoming drivers would wave--just as if was a kid back home! You'd meet somebody on the sidewalk and at least get a nod or a good-morning, the way you do in small-town Arkansas. And if you travelled long enough, you'd come up behind Seamus on his tractor, making a blistering ten miles an hour. Talk about hillbilly flashbacks!

Being in rural Ireland is a bunch like being in the rural South, except they sure do talk funny.

Maybe this friendliness of ours is a Celt thing that our ancestors brought here from Ireland or Scotland. I can't speak for the Scots, although every one that I've met over here has been quite friendly (if a little weird).

Our mountain music has much of the pipes in it; perhaps we still have Inner Celts.

:hi:
dbt

[carolinayellowdog]

3. Piedmont is friendlier than coastal or mountain areas IMO

Hey,

Glad to learn of your impressions of various places. Your comments about Ireland are especially interesting; I must say that England struck me as one of the least friendly places I've visited but I never left London. Commuters on the trains coming into London look absolutely cold dead miserable! Lest I seem like a chauvinist for my native state, I hasten to add that Richmond is #2 to Boston in the meanness category. Whites are either rich and snooty or redneck and scary, except for the ones who came there from somewhere else. Blacks are cold and distant with whites (based on experience, I reckon) far more than in the Piedmont countryside an hour or two west and south.

Back to my point though-- this waving phenomenon is quite geographically distinctive. Growing up in Hampton Roads I never saw or heard of it. But moving west 60 miles I encountered it; going west on US 58 it starts around Franklin, and the moment it starts it's universal. It continues unabated all across the Southside, until you get to the mountains. Starting around Patrick County, people look at you with suspicion if you're an outsider waving at them (which I of course do by habit now.) This small one-state sample suggests to me that it's not the Celtic influence but the African, because the parts of rural Virginia with the highest AA percentages are also the friendliest. But you might be right.

Cheers,

CYD

[BamaGirl]

4. Waving and the South and Ireland

I live in a small city/big town in southeast Al. We see some waving, and my husband tends to wave at everyone. Oddly enough he's from rural Ireland. I'm from Atlanta and less likely to wave. I lived in Vegas for a year and there is no waving there. It was the least friendly place I've been. Everyone I met there assumed my accent meant I was stupid. Very annoying. I won't live outside of the South again.

[Frogtutor]

5. Fort Worth, Texas is pretty friendly...

I guess for a large city. I should say that friendliness is pretty much limited to face-to-face contact, though--people turn into monsters behind the wheels of their cars (I've often found it very ironic while driving that the state motto is "The Friendly State"). I've noticed that most of Texas is relatively friendly, especially small towns.

Where I've been surprised by friendliness, though, was in the Washington, D.C., Virginia, and Maryland area. We vacationed there a few years ago, and I was very pleasantly surprised. I'm not really sure why I was surprised, I guess I figured people so far "north" (of Texas, anyway) wouldn't be so friendly, especially in a place like Washington, D.C. I can't wait to go back!

On the other hand, we vacationed in southern California a couple of years ago, and I thought people were especially rude and hostile! For some reason, I expected that part of the country to be friendly.

Just goes to show you can't make assumptions about any geographical region and its people!

[Frogtutor]

6. I meant for the above post to be a reply to the orginal! n/t

[Machiavelli05]

24. No one is nice or polite in DC during rush hour

otherwise the city and suburbs are great!

[MediumBrownDog]

26. agree about Richmond....

Lived there for 10 years for professional reasons, and the people there are distinctly unfriendly. Everyone has a chip on their shoulder, whether it is their breeding, money, race, or view of the Civil War. I didn't realize how tired it all made me until I moved a year ago. :hi:

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

28. Carolina, I grew up in Newport News and live in Richmond now

so I can genuinely speak to both of your 'observations.'

People are people, regardless of color, race, religion, etc. I wouldn't generalize or stereotype (when you say "whites are either rich and snooty or redneck and scary, except for the ones who came from somewhere else. Blacks are cold and distant with whites)."

I've met some really cool people in Hampton Roads and in the Richmond area, black, white, Hispanic, etc. I think it's more a matter of personality and that person's experiences vs. geography, though I must admit the fact that some idiots around Richmond still think "the south will rise again" might contribute to your belief that 'blacks are cold and distant with whites.' Perhaps this feeling you get is the fact that unfortunately (in my book) Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. There may still be some lingering feelings of uneasiness, even after all this time.

Re: "Back to my point though-- this waving phenomenon is quite geographically distinctive. Growing up in Hampton Roads I never saw or heard of it." Hampton Roads is quite a transient area, with lots of military personnel.

I wouldn't consider myself rich, snooty, redneck or scary (well, maybe to some I'm scary since I'm not a Republican!?). I hate NASCAR, don't make enough money or come from money to be rich and tell it like it is. Not rich, snooty or redneck. :)

You write about the wave: I do that in my neigborhood, too! Some wave back, some stare at me like I'm nuts. Who knows?

PS. Mom's from Norfolk, VA and Dad's from Groton, CT, so I'm truly a mixed breed! LOL! Just call me "Macey Dixie," eh?

[Machiavelli05]

20. Scots are NOT weird! ...

theyre unique.

As for waving and general politeness, I worked in Edinburgh for a bit and had a lot of contact with the Western Isles of Scotland (the rural of the rural) and their behavior was reminiscent (sp?) of the south... everyone smiled and said good morning/good evening/hello, waved in cars, strike up convo with strangers... now I wouldnt say there is the same cultural emphasis on manners. However, I could be wrong - b/c their idea of good manners may not have been the same good manners I was raised with. Its not that we're that different, its just theres certainly a cultural difference where social manners requirements do not seem to be as strict.

This was true all over rural Scotland, I traveled and saw 90% of it while I was over there.

[quaoar]

7. My experience

"In Alabama I felt that the women were just fine but many of the men had a hard edge of redneck scariness different from what I'd experienced in VA, NC, or LA."

Well, that's the first time on DU that I've been called a scary redneck.

I've lived in Alabama for more than 17 years. Lived in Louisiana before that, went to college in Mississippi and I lived in South Carolina during high school.

I've never noticed much difference in the friendliness factor from one place to another.

[carolinayellowdog]

8. Couldn't have been you-- many does not mean most let alone all

My experience in Alabama was in 1976-77 and you've only been there 17 years. How you get from my statement above to a personal accusation, I don't follow. Maybe it was the difference between attending a public university and a private college, but Tuscaloosa seemed to have a significantly higher proportion of the sort who would "just as soon beat you up as look at you" (aka scary rednecks) than anywhere else I'd lived including north Louisiana.

[wildeyed]

9. I am a transplant form up North.

I have lived in NC for over seven years.

My take, in the south, people are more civil on a day to day basis. Lots of small talk and friendly chat to accomplish routine tasks. But that only goes so far. My sense, with allot of the people I meet, if you don't go to the same church or country club, you are not going to be their true friend. They seem very entrenched in their social circles and there is often no room for someone new.

I have lived in the North most of my life, and although day to day life was more hurried and people were often rude, I never had any trouble meeting new people. It has been really hard for me to make genuine social connections here in the south.

[dbt]

10. I think the connections will eventually come, wildeyed.

Meanwhile, welcome to that fantasy land that is the South!

:hi:
dbt

[wildeyed]

13. Thanks.

I have been doing better recently. I joined a church, albeit the Unitarian, and I got very active politically during this past election. I met many other activists and ended up feeling much more connected to the community. Silver lining of the whole nasty mess, I guess.

[Dzimbowicz]

12. I know what you mean

I am a native South Carolinian and understand that if one is not in the same church or country club, one can never truly become accepted by certain groups; and, I think that is a legacy of our segregationist past, both economically and racially.

Here is a short experience of mine about entering a new group in SC:
During the 1980s, I was an officer in the SC National Guard. I was assigned to a unit in rural York County which is in the upstate region of SC. I am from Columbia (midlands) and I speak differently than most people in the upstate of SC. At first, the soldiers and other officers did not believe me when I told them I was a native South Carolinian, they insisted that I was a "transplant" and only the enlisted soldiers eventually came to accept me as a member of the unit. The officers, on the other hand, were a hardened clique (mostly Citadel graduates, who can be rather clannish) did not accept me as they would one of their own. Not only was I not a "good ol' boy" from the surrounding area, I was also former enlisted who had earned a commission. I guess from their perspective, I was a "class-jumper".

So, yes, the South is an unusual place. There are many good things about it as well as bad things. But, then again, every region probably has similar stories about daily life and the interactions of people. However, in my opinion, most people are friendly and if given the chance will respond in a friendly manner when treated likewise.

[wildeyed]

14. When we first moved to NC we had little money,

so we lived in an inexpensive apartment complex in a not great part of town. But it was really friendly, we knew most of our neighbors. It wasn't until we moved to the upscale neighborhood that people got snotty with me. So maybe the snobbishness is more of an issue with certain classes in the south. Guess I just didn't measure up. Darn, and I was so looking forward to those Junior League meetings!

Snobbishness in DC, where I lived before, was rampant, but it had more to do with your job and accomplishments than with family connections and money.

[kick-ass-bob]

15. I dunno about that...

We went trick or treating in the neighboring gated community here in Raleigh, and all but one of the people in those houses was as nice as anyone could be. One lady even chatted with us for 5-10 minutes.

The one who wasn't nice?
A northern accent.

[wildeyed]

19. Well I am pleased that you had a better experience than I.

But trust me, I lived in the fancy 'Old Charlotte' neighborhood for 4 years and those people were *not* nice. I couldn't tell you what their accents were since few of them bothered to speak to me.

[Digit]

46. Native of NoVa living in the south now.

Northern Va USED to be friendly, way back when.

I moved down to the south and was pleased with how well the races got along. I could initiate a conversation with different cultures and races and was pleased. I noticed some of the blacks would avert their eyes sometimes it seemed in submission. I would draw them out, and then it was no longer an issue.
I have since found their is some nasty prejudice that exists here, and yes, it was from Republicans. I was shocked. They were taking issue with a inter-racial couple having dinner together. It was a business situation, so I was not able to speak up. Since I was turning red in the face, I excused myself to go to the bathroom.
The other thing that turns me off about the south are the religious people who will not associate with people because they are not of the same faith. The ones I know of were Southern Baptists although I don't know if it is limited to them. I had never experienced anything like that in any area I had lived.
They also shun people who are divorced.
Oh, and the good ol boys down here REALLY hate me since I tend to question too much. Guess I am an uppity female. hahahaha

[Romulus]

11. totally agree

people are W-A-A-Y friendlier to strangers "down there" then "up here"(DC-NoVA and farther north). Having lived in NYC and growing up in TX, along with living in NC/VA, I can speak from experience.

Even hiking along the AT in the various regions of VA will indicate "where" you are. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when people refused to acknowledge me, or even make eye contact, in the NoVA region when meeting up on the AT. Everywhere else (C-Ville on south to TN) there was always a smile and a "how's it going?" (These were day hikes or 2-3 night trips). Did those people really care about my life on any deep level? Probably not, but they respected me as another person all the same, enough to at least acknowledge me and wish me well.

That's why I found it alternately hilarious and infuriating when I read that post-election essay by some northeasterner who pontificated that the reason northern cities were "blue" was because of the "sense of community and interconnectedness" felt by the cities' residents. :eyes: The same cities where rules #1 and #2 are "Don't make eye contact with anyone, even in your own apartment building hallway" and "Don't say anything to anyone you don't know."

[carolinayellowdog]

17. Urban vs. rural in VA and NC

Hey,

Thanks for your comments, which bring to mind a conversation with my brother who has lived in Boston a long time. He said that avoidance of eye contact or greetings was a defensive mechanism because there are so many crazies, panhandlers, etc. to avoid. The same factor makes the urban areas of VA a lot less friendly than the rural parts. But from my observation this is much less the case in NC, where the metro areas are smaller and the inner cities less plagued by urban problems. The Triangle and Triad cities seem as friendly as smaller places; don't know Charlotte enough to judge how it feels by comparison.

He also laughed at the business of waving at people, saying it "doesn't mean anything." I speculate that it is a subliminal gesture of harmlessness, as if to say "I'm not carrying a weapon." But while it doesn't mean anything personal, it definitely means a lot socially: respect. I've read *about* but not read a book called Culture of Honor which argues that Southern white males have a long history of fighting duels over affronts to "honor"-- and thus that our cordiality is a method to avoid affronting people, which can have fatal consequences.

It's hard for me to realize that rudeness "doesn't mean anything" as practiced in the northeast. Down here, what is typical up there would be interpreted as deliberately insulting-- e.g. refusing eye contact and ignoring greetings from strangers. There certainly are misunderstandings on both sides.

CYD

PS-- One thing that took me a long time to understand about perceived rudeness is norms about staring. My first couple of trips to France I was constantly agonizing about why this or that person was staring at me on the metro. The stares didn't seem hostile, or curious, or sexual, or *anything* recognizable. Finally I came to accept that THEY JUST STARE for no reason, and that feeling extreme discomfort from being stared at was my cultural baggage.

[Mrs. Venation]

16. Y'all Should Read Florence King

She does a better job of describing the looney bin that is the south than any other writer I can think of. Start with "Southern Ladies and Gentlemen". Then go on to "Confessions of a Failed Southern Lady".

Florence is witty, misanthropic, and the real deal.

I am a native of Tennessee. So is my dad. My mama is a Georgia native. I guess that's about a southern as one can get!

[BamaGirl]

18. I loved

Confessions of a Failed Southern Lady. I'll have to check out the other one. Have you ever seen the Southern Belle Primer book? (Can't remember the exact title, but that's close.) It's hilarious. My Mom and I sat and read it one night, and had to explain every little thing to my girls who just didn't get why it was so funny lol. And of course, there's the SPQ's, also very funny. I'm always on the lookout for Southern Belle humor lol. Hey, with a name like Lori Belle, who can blame me lol?

[Machiavelli05]

21. I am in a horrible position

I am from South of DC in Maryland... which, I do point out to many IS south of the Mason Dixon line...

However, yankees (I can use that term, right? dunno if thats off limits for marylander use) say I have an accent and with many of the people I associate with I think it gives them something they can use to not like me if they are so inclined. My friends, however, do not care.

Southerners think I sound like a yankee for the most part - and if they picked up any hint of a southern accent, once they found out I was from MD they'd say I was faking it. Ive encountered many southerners who want to lump everyone from MD into the yankee category and are very hostile about.

My mom from TN has a very tennessee accent - and she's been displaced from Nashville for 35 years.
She does claim that in the 60s and 70s there was a lot of descrimination and people wanted to think she was dumb, guess she's proved them wrong by now.

Especially in Liberal democratic circles its a particular disadvantage b/c those folks tend to believe southern culture is exclusively Republican-esque conservatism.

[Frogtutor]

22. I don't understand; how are you a horrible person?

Being from Texas, I thought Maryland was "Yankee" land, but there's a joke in Texas that anyone from north of the Red River is a Yankee. That's even funnier because the entire Texas panhandle is north of the Red River!

I found Maryland, Virginia, and Washington D.C. to be probably the friendliest places I've every visited (read my post above). I can't wait to go back!

[Machiavelli05]

23. Im not a horrible person...

In a horrible position...

I could make all kinds of jokes about Bush messing up Texas education... but I wont ;-)

[Frogtutor]

25. OMG, you have every right--I AM an idiot!

Geez, I cannot believe I did that...

We really need a blushing smilie (well, at least I do)

I swear to God I'm not usually stupid, I just had a brain fart!

:shrug:

On edit: BTW, I finished school WAY before Bush showed up, so I can't even blame him!

[MrSandman]

27. I know several people who...

Have lived here for 10years or more who hear, Ya ain't from around here?" It's not unfriendliness, just clannishness.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

29. I did live in NOVA for a while, though and did find people

there weren't as friendly in the workplace or in the apt. complex where my husband and I lived. I don't know if this contradicts any earlier statements (I feel like I'm Condeleeza lies a lot today) I made, but I got the feeling that there was the attitude of "me first and screw everybody else," which is I think one of the reasons we wanted to move out of the rat race and closer to where our families are.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. I don't trust Southerners because of this

I'm from the west coast originally, I've lived in Atlanta for 10 years now. In that time, the people I've made friends with have been other non-Southernes (with the notable exception of my partner, who's from Alabama) and Southern people of color. I have grown to have an innate distrust of white southerners due to what I feel is an inate passive-aggression, in which politeness is weilded like a club or a knife. Some people seem to believe you can say the most horrible, hostile shit and get away with it as long as you add "Bless her heart" after the fact. FUCK that.

I'm from a very rural area of Oregon and grew up in a very small town (less than 4,000 people). It's safe to say that I tend to accept people at face value and am still, even now, quite a bit more naive than a lot of folks. But after the things that I've seen, white Southerners make me very uncomfortable, and I set a much higher standard for their "trustworthiness". I have maybe four or five friends that are white Southernes (excluding my partner). One lived abroad for five years and married a Bostonian. One almost literally saved my life. One I've known for years and have only recently started really opening up to her. One is a lady whom I didn't even know was Southern until one night at a bar, when she told me that she herself feels a great deal of mistrust toward Southerners (she grew up in High Point, NC).

Sorry for the rant, I just had to get that off my chest. I hope no one was offended by it. I know, intellectually, that most Southerners are not out to mistreat me, but I operate from the assumption that they are until proven otherwise.

[RoyGBiv]

31. Nice philosophy ...

"I know, intellectually, that most Southerners are not out to mistreat me, but I operate from the assumption that they are until proven otherwise."

I hope you'll not find it offensive when I point out that this exact same logic is used in the following, very common expression of feeling: "I know, intellectually, that black people aren't out to get me, but I work from that assumption until proven otherwise." You're likely to hear that from someone who subconsciously believes the sum-total of black culture is embodied in movies like Boyz in the Hood and has a instinctive habit of locking car doors more quickly when they see a black man walking across the parking lot.

Stereotypes and prejudices aren't any more acceptable simply by virtue of being directed toward white Southerners.

BTW, you have the "bless her heart" thing a bit fowled up. It doesn't originate with her, by Molly Ivins is notable for discussing it in some detail. The point is not to say some of the most "horrible, hostile shit" and then append "bless her heart" at the end. The point is to avoid saying directly the horrible, hostile shit in the first place. "Bless her little heart" is, in effect, a regional colloquialism for "she's a bitch." Why not just say, "She's a bitch"? I'll leave that to individual interpretation.

[Modem Butterfly]

32. Yes, I know it's wrong

And it bothers me somewhat. But the passive-aggressive niceness thing really baffles me. I don't understand why folks aren't either simply honest and straight-forward or simply refuse to deal with people that piss them off. Why continue to smile and backstab or malign them?

I hope you'll not find it offensive when I point out that this exact same logic is used in the following, very common expression of feeling: "I know, intellectually, that black people aren't out to get me, but I work from that assumption until proven otherwise."

Well, I think it's a bit different, in that I don't look at who's white and in the South and assume that they're Southern. But if someone has that overly polite, unctous attitude that some mistake for Southern charm, then yes, I'm going to assume that you're being fake and I'm going to be on my guard around you. I think it's more akin to hearing someone use a double negative or the word "ain't" and assuming they're stupid.

I wish I could continue to be naive and trusting of folks while living here. But both my business and personal relationships have taught me otherwise. There is some subtlety to communications on the part of white Southerners that I simply don't get. Maybe it's because I'm not a Southerner, maybe it's because I'm a person of color, maybe it's because I'm violating some unspoken rule. But I am on guard around people who seem to embrace this "charm".

You're likely to hear that from someone who subconsciously believes the sum-total of black culture is embodied in movies like Boyz in the Hood and has a instinctive habit of locking car doors more quickly when they see a black man walking across the parking lot.

Well, that's where we diverge. I don't equate a drawl with someone coming to my door with a gun. I'm quite experienced in Southern culture. But in my experience, that veneer of niceness is often a substitue for sincerity. Which dovetails into your next point:

The point is not to say some of the most "horrible, hostile shit" and then append "bless her heart" at the end. The point is to avoid saying directly the horrible, hostile shit in the first place.

Ah. So it's a lie, and worse than that, one candy coated in insincerity. Glad to know my original assumption was correct.

[Ripley]

34. How nice of you to come into this forum to shit on white Southerners.

You say you are quite experienced in Southern culture, yet you only hang out and trust black Southerners. Talk about a bigotted point of view.

I just don't believe you hear that all the time. I rarely hear anyone say "bless you" especially after they have insulted me and I've been around Southerners for decades. White, black, Latino, whatever race.

Perhaps if you really did experience Southern culture, you'd understand most Southerners are more polite in public to strangers out of tradition and habit. "You doing okay today?" is pretty standard for clerks to ask everywhere I go and they usually expect a pleasantry in return. How awful it must be for you to take 10 seconds and make a small gesture to someone in a polite way. Your inability to be polite is evident.

[Modem Butterfly]

35. I've lived in the South over ten years

You say you are quite experienced in Southern culture, yet you only hang out and trust black Southerners. Talk about a bigotted point of view.

When did I say that? I do have some white Southern friends. But most white Southerners are very insincere. Some call it charm. I see it as a reason to keep my guard up.

And since when aren't black Southerners part of Southern culture? Did someone say something about a bigotted point of view?

I just don't believe you hear that all the time. I rarely hear anyone say "bless you" especially after they have insulted me and I've been around Southerners for decades. White, black, Latino, whatever race.

Well, with all due respect, that's your experience. But I was talking about mine.

Perhaps if you really did experience Southern culture, you'd understand most Southerners are more polite in public to strangers out of tradition and habit.

I'm not talking about simple pleasantries. I'm talking about day-to-day, business and personal interactions.

Your inability to be polite is evident.

LOL!

[carolinayellowdog]

36. I respect your POV and that of any person of color in the South

Hey,

It comes as no surprise to me that you encounter white Southerners who are superficially cordial but whose motives you suspect and whose sincerity you question. Especially so in the Deep South, where in my experience race relations are more strained than in NC and VA. The people whose friendliness rings false to you are probably racist in private but not in public.

At the same time, I'd far prefer superficial cordiality to outright rudeness, which doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere out the West but definitely is in the northeast. Would caution you against generalizations about "most white Southerners" being insincere. It's probably true about most whites in *America*, and not just in the South-- varying from place to place as much as from region to region-- in dealing with race.

It seems that the main criterion for sincerity/insincerity is whether or not people "really care" about your wellbeing or are "just pretending." Of course Southern schmoozers don't "really care" in any deep way about strangers they encounter or casual work associates-- they simply care about maintaining a certain atmosphere of cordiality. But does that make them insincere? I don't think a "one size fits all" superficial friendliness merits that appelation. But a person of color might well experience something more deserving of being called "insincere"-- that is, dual messages of the friendly smile/cold eyes variety. That's where passive aggressiveness comes in. I don't see garden variety Southern friendliness as the least bit passive aggressive, but with racial undercurrents it might well be.

CYD

[Modem Butterfly]

37. Thank-you for hearing me

At the same time, I'd far prefer superficial cordiality to outright rudeness, which doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere out the West but definitely is in the northeast.

I've never thought of it as rudeness, more of a sort of self-interested tunnel vision. I think that when you're surrounded by the sheer press and mass of humanity that exists in most of the northeast you tend to get really protective of your space. Of course, where I'm from makes most of the South look far from rural- population density back home approaches that of Grizzly Adams territory.

And westerners can be quite rude, but they tend to simply not deal with people they don't have to. I guess it's an off-shoot of wide open spaces.

Would caution you against generalizations about "most white Southerners" being insincere. It's probably true about most whites in *America*, and not just in the South-- varying from place to place as much as from region to region-- in dealing with race.

American business seems to run on insincerity, it's true, but I feel that much of personal interactions in the South also rely on it, packaged as "charm". A number of people have expressed some of the same thoughts to me, including my friend from High Point. Of course, I'm sure that there are others who feel that this "charm" is a simple social lubricant, and more power to them. I simply don't feel that way.

It seems that the main criterion for sincerity/insincerity is whether or not people "really care" about your wellbeing or are "just pretending."

I guess what bothers me is that I feel that many white Southerners use charm as a means of concealing their true feelings, professionally and personally speaking. I personally think that if you don't care for someone, don't deal with them, rather than be friendly to their face and stab them in the back. I've seen a lot of wholly unnecessary gamesmanship and politics among white Southerners, and haven't noticed it aimed particularly at non-whites or non-Southerners, but I have noticed that non-Southerners in particular seem unprepared for it.

Of course Southern schmoozers don't "really care" in any deep way about strangers they encounter or casual work associates-- they simply care about maintaining a certain atmosphere of cordiality. But does that make them insincere?

Yes. Pure and simple. I'm not speaking about simple cordiality here. A "good morning" or a "have a nice weekend,". I can think of far too many examples to list here, and anyway, I wouldn't want to bore anyone with the details.

Give me a man who says "You're an idiot," when he means "You're an idiot" anyday over one who says, "So tell me all about your family," when he means "You're an idiot". Honest rudeness I can deal with. Conniving charm I can't. And so I have my bullshit detector tuned to 10.

[RoyGBiv]

38. Stereotypes, lies, etc...

At least you'll admit to it bothering you somewhat. That's more than I get from most people.

I'll copy your convention for replying so to respond to specific points.

Well, I think it's a bit different, in that I don't look at who's white and in the South and assume that they're Southern.

Where's the difference? Is stereotyping based on race different from stereotyping based on race+regionalism? Would it make a difference if those who stereotype blacks called them Africans? Are all Mexicans drunk and lazy? Are all Iraqis suicidal car bombers? Perhaps a difference in degree exists, but the underlying mode of thought it precisely the same: this or that group is inferior due to some characteristic one perceives to be inherent with that group.

maybe it's because I'm a person of color

FWIW, the heart of Southern culture is influenced to degrees I suspect you'd have trouble imagining by the culture that developed among black families in the South during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Put another way, black culture and Southern culture, including many of the mannerisms you find distasteful, are inseparable. The operator in this equation involves how closely the various peoples of the South were connected, how they interacted, how unique elements of various cultures molded together into a whole. (Obviously so-called "black culture" has developed in different directions in different regions as has culture among other groups. I'm speaking historically and noted that much of this has distilled itself down into the present.)

What you call "passive-aggressive niceness" is more commonly called deference, and its a part of every acculturated Southerner you'll meet, regardless of "race." (It's a part of many other cultures as well, particularly the English.) Those not so acculturated often see it as fake-ness, as you seem to do. In the South, it's called being polite. I can understand why you see it as a negative trait, but I'll ask you to understand that I see a person who has no qualms about calling a person a "bitch" without a second thought as excessively rude.

Ah. So it's a lie, and worse than that, one candy coated in insincerity. Glad to know my original assumption was correct.

You call it a lie. Again, I call it being polite. I see no value in the habit of streaming profanity just because one is irritated at another, and I see no use for insulting a person I don't know. This is nothing more than a variation of "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing," axiom. Southerners have modified that due to a realization that silence is often seen as an insult in and of itself.

Colloquialisms are what they are, and they are not lies. They are manners of expression. Calling someone a "fucking bitch" is no more literally true than offering the expression, "Bless her little heart." One of these phrases, however, is, to my mind, more vile than the other and to be avoided.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Blessed hearts, ugly Americans, and lazy dogs

Would it make a difference if those who stereotype blacks called them Africans?

Well, number one, that would be inaccurate. Number two, for our pursposes, that is enlarging the picture quite a bit. I'm speaking specifically about Southerners, specifically, white Southerners, not all North Americans.

Are all Mexicans drunk and lazy?

Again, see my point above. I'm speaking about white Southerners, not all Americans.

Perhaps a difference in degree exists, but the underlying mode of thought it precisely the same: this or that group is inferior due to some characteristic one perceives to be inherent with that group.

I have not declared that white Southerners to be inherently inferior to anyone. Nor, for that matter, have I declared white Southern culture to be inferior to any other culture. And finally, I have not declared insincerity to be inherent to white Southerners. But, as the rest of your post acknowledges, insincereity is a part of white Southern culture and the justifications for it have deep routes.

To look at it another way, when I am traveling abroad, I try to avoid the company of other Americans. I find that when we travel, we can be a loud, insensitive, overbearing people. I believe the roots of this lie in American jingoism. Do I believe all Americans, including myself, are loud, insensitive, and overbearing people? No. But I am an American, and being loud, insensitive and overbearing is a definite part of our culture.

Put another way, black culture and Southern culture, including many of the mannerisms you find distasteful, are inseparable.

While I do believe that blacks are a huge part of Southern culture, I have yet to experience this so-called "charm" from them. Most black Southerners that I have encountered have placed a high value on honesty and forthrightness, and in fact, often lampoon white Southern culture's passive-aggression. By contrast, white Southerners seem to place a value on nicely-packaged bullshit, all but declaring it a virtue, as you yourself do later in this post.

What you call "passive-aggressive niceness" is more commonly called deference, and its a part of every acculturated Southerner you'll meet, regardless of "race."

I disagree. Using the words "bless your heart" when you mean, "fuck off and die" is, in fact, the complete opposite of deference.

I can understand why you see it as a negative trait, but I'll ask you to understand that I see a person who has no qualms about calling a person a "bitch" without a second thought as excessively rude.

Unless, of course, they add the qualifier, "Bless your heart," afterwards, right?

:eyes:

Of course, there is a third option, which is to say nothing at all. We're not talking about an either-or proposition here, are we?

Again, I call it being polite. I see no value in the habit of streaming profanity just because one is irritated at another, and I see no use for insulting a person I don't know.

Unless, of course, you add "bless his/her/your heart" after the insults. Then it's being polite, right?

:eyes:

Again, this is not an either-or situation. One doesn't have to choose between being hostile and being passive-aggressive in order to be polite.

This is nothing more than a variation of "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing," axiom.

No, it's not. Insulting someone and then adding a modifier and pretending that it's somehow not happening is the exact opposite of saying nothing.

Southerners have modified that due to a realization that silence is often seen as an insult in and of itself.

You can rationalize it all you want, but it's still just bullshit wrapped up in a neat, pretty package. If your next reply includes the phrase "Why, you're simply not smart enough to understand what I'm saying, bless your heart!" I will take it as an insult, no matter how wide your smile or nice your accent. I may not be from the South, but I certainly know when a dog won't hunt.

[RoyGBiv]

41. Here is the problem ...

If your next reply includes the phrase "Why, you're simply not smart enough to understand what I'm saying, bless your heart!"

You make assumptions. In this particular case, you're building a straw-man that you quite conveniently and easily knock down. Your assumptions are what I find to be in need of critique.

You write as though you've actually witnessed someone express a vile insult and append it with the phrase "bless your heart" or something similar. Is this the case, or are you making an assumption? If you've actually witnessed this, all I can say is that I personally have not, and I've lived all my life in one section of the South. Perhaps it was a unique event. Perhaps it is a local habit. I don't know. If this is merely an assumption, I'll repeat and say that you have the whole thing a bit fouled up. I won't repeat what I've said before on that, but I will suggest you seek out Molly Ivins' writings on habits such as this. She's much more eloquent than I could possibly pretend to be.

With all this in mind, I'm not going to address the repeated assertions regarding expressing insults and appending them with a fake expression of cordiality. I have no experience with that and no knowledge of it. I do have knowledge of the cultural trait among Southerners of all races of being deferential to others, regardless of the actual feelings that person may hold toward those others.

Let me give you a practical example. Due to my position in my job, I encounter dozens of people every day that at best approach me with caution and at worst have outright hostile feelings toward me even though they don't know my name. As for me, I have reason to approach all these people with my own caution and consider very carefully what they say to me, looking for hints of dishonesty. Regardless, our interaction, for the good of both of us, depends on an atmosphere of cordiality if we are both to accomplish what we need and want to accomplish. This then requires deference, not letting it all out in the open even though I may know this or that person has a habit of lying or they know I could, almost on a whim if I were to abuse my position, put a pretty good kink in their plans for the next several months.

How should we approach each other? These people typically approach me in one of two ways. Either they are openly hostile, and all that goes with that, or they are overtly friendly. Very little middle ground exists. Because I am good at my job, I judge how I interact with these people based on how they initially interact with me. It's safer that way. Thus when someone approaches me that is openly hostile, they won't get very far. If they are deferential, we can usually work something out. I treat them the same way I want to be treated, modifed somewhat based on how they are treating me, even though neither of us really cares one whit about the other person beyond what goes on between us during the few minutes we interact.

"I would like," "I don't understand," "Please help me," etc. is met with, "I'll do what I can," "Let me see if I can explain," "I'll exert every effort to help in whatever way I can," etc. This morning, the first words out of one person's mouth were, and I quote, "Look, you fucking asshole ..." Guess how far he got? Not very. I suspect he'll be pissed for the better part of a month, if not longer. I didn't do anything outside the boundaries of my authority with him; however, neither did I exercise certain options I could have had he not met me initially in such a needlessly rude manner.

This is all about manners and how you deal with strangers. According to my philosophy of manners, you ask and say please, and if someone wants to fling insults, you, at worst, throw something with a little wit behind it. The "bless her little heart" thing, as Molly Ivins discusses, is not meant to be taken as a literal example of official Southern code. The type of behavior such an expression, spoken in a specific context, demonstrates is the point. This boils down to a very simple comparison: calling someone a "bitch" or casually offering an expression like "bless your little heart," which in that context is more an expression of contempt for a person's behavior than an outright insult.

You seem to be saying that calling someone a "bitch," because it is supposedly a more honest expression of hostility, is better than the more vague show of contempt embodied in the colloquialism. I must admit I cannot wrap my mind around that.

Number two, for our pursposes, that is enlarging the picture quite a bit. I'm speaking specifically about Southerners, specifically, white Southerners, not all North Americans.

This is avoiding the point.

Does the size of the group somehow mollify the act of stereotyping? I really don't care of you're only talking about white males over the age of 27 who live on the east end of Gainesville, GA. The act is the same.

[Modem Butterfly]

42. Okay

You write as though you've actually witnessed someone express a vile insult and append it with the phrase "bless your heart" or something similar.

Why yes I have. Seveal times. More often than I care to recall, actually.

Much of the rest of your post is simply talking past my point. As I've said repeatedly, there is a middle ground between overt hostility and passive-aggression, and insulting someone while adding a pleasant-sounding modifier meant to fool them isn't it.

This is all about manners and how you deal with strangers.

No, as a matter of fact, it isn't. I've seen Southern "charm" inflicted on friends, family members, colleagues, and acquaintences, in particular the phrase "bless your/his/her heart". Speaking of that particular phrase, I find myself thinking of an incident that happened to me a couple of weeks. There's a group of ladies that meets at my local yarn shop to share ideas, materils, and to socialize. Last summer we were joined by a lady from Chicago who's perfectly polite, but not Southern. Anyway, two weeks ago the ladies are talking about their children and what they want to be when they grow up, and the lady from Chicago mentions her son, who's four, wants to grow up and drive a Caterpillar. Out of the blue, one of the other ladies says, "Why, he's just not old enough to have much of an imagination is he, bless his heart," WTF? No one said anything for a few minutes. When the lady from Chicago left to use the restroom, the other ladies chided "bless his heart" lady, who defended herself by saying, "It's not like she gets it. She's from up north, bless her heart,"

The "bless her little heart" thing, as Molly Ivins discusses, is not meant to be taken as a literal example of official Southern code.

Well, you should probably let these folks know:

http://www.dailypepper.com/mt/archives/000053.html

If you've lived in the South, you should know that all insults are followed by "bless her heart." As in, "She's got a face like a burnt oven mitt ... bless her heart."

http://www.elon.edu/pendulum/Issues/2002/041102/Features/Belle.html

Here is a quick secret about how to be charming in the South. Say, "Bless your heart." No matter what insult follows this remark, it is never considered insulting. Trust me. It works.

This essay is a real double-bagger.

http://www.funpages.com/southernspeak/

Any insulting statement is always followed by "bless his/her heart." like: "She's dumber than a door knob, bless her heart."

http://www.aubreysabala.com/archives/2004/11/emoticontradict.html

It could be the converted Southerner in me, where insults are covered in sweet molassas, only discovered days later that you've been told off. It's the "Bless Her Heart" syndrome in reverse, where whatever comes after the heart-blessing is sure to be some sort of jab at the person;

[carolinayellowdog]

40. Deferential cultures

Hey,

Following up my earlier comments about Canada, I have a speculation about why some Canadians would agree with Southerners that northeasterners are rude. Both French and English people have in my experience very high standards of deference in social interactions. For example when ordering in a restaurant, saying "I want x" or "Give me x" (which so many Americans do routinely) would make a French server bristle, whereas "I would like x" gets a friendly response. Is it insincere to address a server the same way you would someone who was feeding you in their home? You don't mean simply to tell them what you'd like but to imply a request that they bring it to you. It's a deferential way of communicating the request.

Have only been in Germany briefly, but found the people more abrupt and less charming than the French, Spanish, Italians, or British. And I've heard from other travelers that Central and Eastern Europeans are generally less polite than Southern and Western Europeans. If there's anything to that, then the greater prevalence of Central and Eastern European influence might account for the perceived rudeness of people in the northeast in the eyes of people whose cultures are more English and French based.

Just a guess,

CYD

on edit, some links:
http://thormay.net/koreadiary/politeness.html
http://www.culture-at-work.com/politefiction.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2138252.stm
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=34552714

PS-- Gotta agree, in my experience black and white Southerners are equally "insincere" as our critics would put it.

[carolinayellowdog]

33. Canadian POV

Hey,

I have three friends who summer in Canada and return to NC in the fall; one is from Ottawa and a Canadian citizen. After their annual return this November I saw them and asked about how they perceived the election from up north, and whether the regional blame game seen at DU made any sense north of the border.

The native Canadian bristled when I used the phrase "non-Southerners" in asking for their POV about blaming one part of the country for Bush. He said that Canadians make no distinction on this score and perceive the USA generally to be in the throes of collective madness. (Of course this is one person speaking for millions, so take it FWIW.) But what really struck me was that he then said Canadians regard people from the northeastern US as very rude, on much the same basis that Southerners do. And that they *do* make regional distinctions on this score, and expect to be treated more politely in other parts of the US. Even if this only reflects Eastern Ontario perspectives and not those of Canadians generally, it was interesting to hear.

CYD

CYD

[Frogtutor]

43. Hey, where did my post on this thread go?

I posted about the "pity factor", and even had a response; those and several other posts along the same lines are gone! I mean, usually, if a post is deleted, there is the word "deleted" in its place.

This isn't a big deal, but I'm just really curious because it's very weird...

[carolinayellowdog]

44. Some technical glitch according to Skinner

Looks like all the posts after 2/3 vanished-- this forum only

[Frogtutor]

45. Ok; thanks for letting me know! n/t

[DawgHouse]

47. When my northern friend visited Arkansas

he reported back to me on what he thought of the state and the people. (Because I am originally from Arkansas, now living in Florida). The first thing he said to me was "What is it with people waving and saying hello?? I couldn't walk down the street without someone nodding and saying hello and it was irritating because I wanted to yell, I DON'T KNOW YOU!" He commented also about driving down the road and how the driver of the oncoming car would give a little wave as they approached.

So his observation was that strangers were friendly and said hello. It made him uncomfortable, probably because he prefers to live in an anonymous society. But he did acknowledge that he was sure they were only being friendly. He just wasn't used to it, I guess.