The Confederate battle flag

[quaoar]

What do you think of when you see someone displaying the Confederate battle flag?

Do you think it's an expression of nostalgia for the good ole days of slavery?

Or do you see it as a way of saying "fuck you" to the rest of the world?

Or something else?

[RoyGBiv]

1. Something else ...

Pardon the pun, but there are many shades of gray involved when examining people's motivations for displaying a CBF.

[Dob Bole]

2. none of the above....

It depends partly on WHO is flying the confederate flag...

Is it the state government? If so, it was probably originally put there to oppose desegregation.

A museum? Then it's there to document Southern history. I'm a historian myself, and you can't leave out the bad when you are displaying what happened in the past.

Private citizens? "confederate flags on their pickup trucks..." It's there as A) a statement of individuality, to show oneself as a rebel OR B) a way of honoring one's ancestors who fought in the Civil War. For example, some of my neighbors are black farmers whose ancestors fought in the Civil War. They take no issue with the rebel flag.

The Dukes of Hazzard? see A) above.

The KKK? Part of the reason that there is controversy over the confederate flag is the fact that white supremacists have begun using it as a symbol. This cannot be easily corrected, until we effectively mow down all members of the KKK.

[RoyGBiv]

4. Mowing down the KKK ...

I'm all for the mowing ... literally.

Sorry, but that made me chuckle. That's one of the more effective visual images I've seen of what I'd like to see happen to the entire organization ... caught under a lawnmower. Yeah, I could grin at that. :-)

Otherwise, well said.

[Oddball]

33. Coming Late to this debate...

just joined. But I prefer the image of a Bush Hog mower than a lawn mower. These types are more weed than grass.

And I am a native southerner. And I don't fly that flag, and don't want it on the stat3e flag of my home state (Georgia) or any others.

[AlFrankenFan]

8. exactly

The KKK didn't start using it until what, the '50's?

Lots of people in my family either own confederate flags or display them outside their homes...and they're democrats (well, for the most part). I had ancestors in the Civil War, and that's why they fly the stars and bars.

[RoyGBiv]

9. For the record ...

The KKK in its various incarnations has been using the CBF since its inception. The first Klan, probably started by Nathan Bedford Forrest, used it exclusively (as opposed to the US flag) since this version of it existed primarily as a resitance organization to Federal occupation and law enforcement. In reality the symbols used by the original Klan varied depending on where the various units were located and who was in them, but the CBF was common.

The Klan in the early 20th century was an organization of so-called superpatriots who claimed for themselves final say on what defined an American. For this group, the CBF was less of a symbol, some chapters not using it at all. The Christian cross and the US Flag led its marches.

What you're talking about refers to what took place in the 50's and 60's and was associated with more than just the Klan. It became a symbol of the resistance to integration and Federal influence, more in line with the original purpose of the original Klan.

[kick-ass-bob]

3. down the street

a guy has 3 wooden flagpoles. One has different things on it from time to time, a US flag, and a stars and bars.

Here, I think he is a racist pig, because it wasn't up before the CIAA (predominately black colleges) tournament came to town, when all of the sudden, it appeared.

[RebelOne]

5. I have no feelings about it one way or the other.

Actually, I think people display them because they are proud to be a Southerner.

[ernstbass]

6. I think it depends on who is displaying

I saw a bumper sticker once with a confederate flag that said "Pride not prejudice"

[carolinayellowdog]

7. "Restoring a... sense of the manhood lost in military defeat"

Actually I don't usually *think* anything, but feel revulsion and danger. I associate it with a criminal element. But today I started reading Charles Chesnutt's The Marrow of Tradition, a novel about the 1898 Wilmington "race riot"-- really a white conservative coup. So today it makes me think of it historically, in light of the analysis provided in the intro by Eric J. Sundquist: "The worship of fallen leaders and soldier-heroes was foremost a means of restoring a psychically acceptable sense of the manhood lost in military defeat, in the extraordinary sacrifice of young men's lives, and in the vast northern appropriation of southern wealth...the hagiographical search for heroes assumed overt theological dimensions, with the sacrifices of Davis, Robert E. Lee, and others compared to the Passion of Christ."

It's a gesture meant to recapture a mythical past. Anyone who understands the reality of the past it represents would be disgusted (but then that might be true of most flags.)

[dbt]

10. That flag is the white people's "n-word."

We can use it, but nobody else can. Yeah, I know right where it came from and what it's supposed to represent--but it still disturbs me to see it on display.

On the one hand, it means Never Surrender. On the other hand, it surely indicates Lost Cause.

Like abortion, religion, gays and guns, it is another issue that will never be settled. The main thing it's good for now is starting fights.

:freak:
dbt
Friendship, Arkansas
Population 206, not counting dogs.

[Sgent]

11. Intesresting question

In the relatively recent vot in Mississippi to change the state flag, a significant minority of blacks voted to keep the CBF as part of the state flag.

I'm not sure what this means, but it does show support beyond white racists.

[autorank]

12. I'm in the Old Dominion, Virginia

I see the stars and bars about twice a year. That's it. My reaction is, ugh. Then I think of the scene in The Great Santini where the dad tells his kids to stop singing Dixie because it's a "loser song" (he sings Battle Hymn). I'm in Northern Virginia (as in the Army of Northern Virginia) but it's all high tech and services. We do have a lot of re-enacters here but that's all done with respect for the historical accuracy of the war and for one another. There are parts of Virginia where you see it a bit more, but not to speak of.

First of all, none of the people with the flag on their car were in the Civil War nor did they lose any family members in the war. IMHO, they're just like the rest of the * right wingers (as opposed to real conservatives), looking to be victims...oh poor me, boo hoo, I'm a loser.

When Northern Virginia becomes it's own state (we will be free), we've already got the design for our new flag. We're so high tech (birthplace of the internet, location of it's operations and backbone...in the South), we've chosen a Jetson's them. Any stars and bars will be removed from any remaining hold outs by decree and replaced with this:


Northern Virginia:
The New Dominion

[DemBones DemBones]

37. I don't have any flags on my car but I did lose a family member in the War

Between the States (meaning between the Confederate States of America and the United States of America, two nation states.)

You wrote:

"First of all, none of the people with the flag on their car were in the Civil War nor did they lose any family members in the war. IMHO, they're just like the rest of the * right wingers (as opposed to real conservatives), looking to be victims...oh poor me, boo hoo, I'm a loser."


Considering the huge death toll of that war, I'm sure there are many people alive today who lost a family member in it. Obviously, there are no veterans of that war still living. But you can't assume that anyone with a flag on their car did not lose someone in their family in the war.

Additionally, at least five other men in my family served in the Confederate Army and survived the war. That's just from my one family line that was in the South at that time. Many people would have Confederate veterans in more than one family line, even if no one in the family was killed in the war. So a lot of people might have a Confederate flag on their car in memory of those in their family who served.


Of course I didn't know the family member who died at Vicksburg serving the CSA, he was my great-grandfather's youngest brother, only 19.

I also lost a family member in WW II, my father's cousin, and again, only 19. I didn't know him, either. He died in Germany serving the USA.

These young men weren't "looking to be victims," but they became victims of war.

Their families were also victims of war, their sons buried far away, and, during the WBTS, their farm burned by the Yankees, leaving them homeless.

If I put a Confederate flag on my car, it would be in memory of my family who suffered because of the war, and also as a protest at what Sherman did to Georgia and what Reconstruction did to the entire South. Besides, it's a cool-looking flag.

Edit: And "Dixie" is a great song. Abraham Lincoln liked it. It's a shame we can't sing it anymore without being called racist. It doesn't have to be sung in dialect; I never heard it in dialect growing up. It was "Old times there are not forgotten" not "Old times der am not forgotten" like minstrel shows did it.

[SCantiGOP]

13. very simple

The rebel flag is an attempt to tell everyone that the people who werre running the southern states in 1860 are still running it. It is a vile symbol of racism.
When the SC legislature took the flag off of the state capitol dome and put it on a flag pole in front of the building (thus removing it from a position of sovereignty) there were rednecks taunting the black protesters during the NAACP march with "Off the dome and in your face."
Whatever the flag may have once meant, it has been totally co-opted by the racists.

[dbt]

14. I believe you're about right:

Whatever the flag may have once meant, it has been totally co-opted by the racists.

[tjwmason]

22. Forgive an Englishman stepping in here

For many years the Cross of St. George (which is the flag of England - as compared with the Union Flag for the whole of the U.K.) was only associated with racists in particular groups like the National Front and the British National Party. The only respectable place it was ever displayed was on Church of England buildings (which have always flown it).

In recent years, fans of the England football team have started to switch from the Union Flag (which is highly inappropriate as Scotland, Wales and N.I. are not part of it) and to the George Cross. This has meant that a symbol which a few years ago was the 'property' of racist thugs is now a perfectly respectable symbol again.

Clearly, the Confederate Battle Flag is a somewhat different kettle of fish given the history of the Confederacy, but just because the K.K.K. currently own it does not mean that it cannot be taken back.

F.Y.I.
The Cross of St. George


The Union Flag (which is made by combining the George Cross, with the St. Andrews Cross of Scotland, and the St. Patrick's Cross representing Ireland)

[Oddball]

35. Interesting

I am a native Southerner and have seen some version of the Confederate Battle Flag displayed for all my life. I grew up in the era when segregation ended in the south, and that social change made the display of the confederate flag especially political in the sixties and seventies (and probably the fifties but that was before my time). It's use in such a manner was intended as a symbol that was intended to intimidate the black population and maintain white power structures.

It is hard for me to imagine this potent symbol return to a more innocuous status. I just know that this symbol causes a visceral reaction in the population it was intended to dominate. Perhaps the flag being seen merely in its historical context is for future generations. One may certainly hope so but it is a hard nut for me to crack.

There may also be a diversity of opinion or reaction in Ireland, Scotland, etc, to the Cross of St. George. I see it often on my church (Episcopal)so it bears a different emotion entirely than what others might feel. Just goes to show the power of symbols.

Still, an interesting perspective.

[AbbyR]

24. OK, question:

If the battle flag is a "vile symbol of racism," what is it when African-Americans sing that hymn that's called the black national anthem rather than the Star Spangled Banner? Is that treasonous, vile, etc.?

[Ripley]

15. What? You're having a rational discussion about this?

GD is flaming up again over this. In the same knee-jerk ignorant way it always does.

Once again, I will ask why the blacks I have asked in person in Alabama how they feel about it, the do not want it banned. They may not like it but they don't picket the Dixie Pride store in my mall where every single piece of merchandise has the flag on it. They don't protest the flag being sold at the grocery store. I have never in 10 years seen a letter to the Editor about these flags. Stillman College is located here and they even let some white guy teach a class about the Confederacy there. Does that make them stupid, or the elite white New Englanders who have never stepped foot in the south or talked to blacks here stupid?

I know my answer.


On Edit: I was a teenager in Ohio when every other kid wore the Confederate flag t-shirts or patches on our tattered jeans in the late 1970's. We had long hair, smoked dope and listened to Led Zepppelin. The symbol had absolutely nothing to do with slaves, racism or hatred. It was truly seen as a sign of "Rebel" ...as in teenage rebellion, left-over hippyness and pot-heads. I know I'm not the only one who experienced it that way. Why is it now decades later there is this movement to ban it. And that is what we're talking about. Of course it should not be on state capitols, but calling it UnAmerican and treating it as equal to the swastika is wrong to me and banning it is UnAmerican.

[LDS Jock]

16. speaking of the flag.. this from GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3216887&mesg_id=3216887&page=
if you want to join in on the discussion. It is of course the old "all southerners are ignorant racists" argument.

[QC]

17. Yeah, it gives the same bunch of a$$holes yet another opportunity

to preen themselves on how wonderfully virtuous they are in comparison to those awful people "down there."

That's what passes for intelligent political discourse at DU these days.

[LDS Jock]

18. yes.. you can check that thread for comments about me

apparently I am racist, full of shit, and other things. I have debated it before, but I think I'm done with this site.

[QC]

19. Yeah, I saw the attacks on you and I alerted on them,

but I think we both know how seriously the mods take it when Southerners, Christians, working people, rural people, etc. are slandered.

You're pretty much right--this site has come to be dominated by netkooks and snobs. I know it's probably hard to believe, but there was a time when you could have an intelligent conversation here. Seriously. But that day is past. A lot of us have spent so much time and energy hating freepers that they have become freepers.

It's best to keep in mind that this is nothing but a discussion board. If I believed that DU were representative of the Democratic party I would lose all hope.

There's no need to leave, though. It's fun calling the sanctimonious, censorious little prisspots on their foolishness. Kinda like being the skunk at the picnic.

[Ripley]

20. Okay guys.

nevermind.

[LDS Jock]

21. well thank you.. I see some of them have been deleted

I didn't alert on any of them, but I did for the person who followed me to the lounge to continue. I do appreciate your support. Padraig was telling me to remember this is NOT reality. Sometimes you need a reminder. Otherwise, I'd be pulling my hair out.

[Oddball]

34. Hang Around LDS

You've got interesting thoughts.

I'm a native southerner and I have very mixed feeling on the Confederate flag. I don't fly or display it because of my own feelings but others should do as they please.

I believe that the Civil War was about slavery because the "state right" that everyone keeps talking about as a major cause of the war was THE RIGHT TO KEEP SLAVES.

But I'm also enough of a cynic to observe that the flag that flew over the great crusade to free the slaves was also the same flag that flew over the forced removal and genocide of the Native Americans.

Still, I fly the American flag on holidays such as July Fourth, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and Dale Earnhardt's Birthday (kidding on that one). When I fly that flag, I know what I mean by its symbolism and I know what I mean by flying it. I'm also willing to grant that same tolerance to others as long as they are tolerant as well.

I'm brand new to the DU but I like what I see here and enjoy the diversity of opinion.

[AbbyR]

23. I think "Redneck"

[Skittles]

25. I think it is a disgrace

it makes me feel sick to see it

[jody]

26. Something else. Among other things the war between the states was

between the industrial north and the agricultural south. Slavery was clearly a catalyst for the war but historians still disagree on the complex tangle of opposing views that lay beneath the surface.

It was fought by the working poor just as all wars since then and those with obscene wealth on both sides survived just as they did in WWI, WWII, and continue to do so today.

[NativeTexan]

27. I see it as a symbol of my Great-Great Grandfather.........

.....fighting for STATES RIGHTS as much as anything. BUT, it has been turned into such a "vile" symbol, that publicly displaying it usually means it is being done as either a protest or to send a message. The original "Stars and Bars" has been gone for a long time.

[RoyGBiv]

29. Clarification ...

This is the Stars and Bars:



This is the Naval Jack:



And this is the most famous CS battle flag:



What most people display is the Naval Jack.

[NativeTexan]

30. I shall stand corrected......

.......THANKS,

Tex

[RebelOne]

28. I live in the Atlanta, GA metro area and I see plenty of the flags.

I never thought anything of it. I think that those who display the flag are just stating their allegiance to the South.

[NorthCarolina]

42. I would say the same

about the folks displaying it here in Charlotte, NC and around the State. More of a simple "Proud of my Southern Heritage" thing than any blatant advocacy for slavery.

[NativeTexan]

31. I actually see it as........

....something that my Great-Great Grandfather fought for. I understand, and can't argue with those who see "hate" in it these days. There have been so many that have warped its memory by using it as a symbol of "hate".

I have never sypathized with slavery and am a civil rights proponent. But there was also so many things that the Civil War was about. The biggest was slavery, no doubt. But there were economic and states rights issues also. And remember this...Abraham Lincoln, a personal hero of mine, used the Emancipation Proclamation to free the SOUTHERN slaves. There were slaves in the north, but they weren't dealt with until much later.

I don't look at the flag, anymore, with pride, but I do look at it with history, both family and American, in mind.

[BluePatriot]

32. Well,

Out here it's rare to see one. I guess people are more into Texan pride than Confederate pride, so someone with a Confederate flag seems like more of an ass.

[wildhorses]

36. depends

on who is flying it

[carolinayellowdog]

38. Southern Italy uses it to express antagonism to the North

Hey,

This from James C. Cobb's Away Down South: A History of Southern Identity, published in 2005 by Oxford:

Expressing their defiance of the North, some in southern Italy even sport Confederate flag bumper stickers and wave the banner at soccer games. When Don H. Doyle asked if people of the Italian South knew what the flag meant, a professor from the University of Naples assured him, "Oh, yes, we know what it means...we too are a defeated people. Once we were a rich and independent country, and they came from the North and conquered us and took our wealth and power away to Rome.

Amazing.

[Politicub]

39. I think "attention whore"

I'm from the South and live outside of Atlanta. One tends to see lots of representations of the confederate flag here. I'm originally from the mountains of NC, and didn't see it that much growing up. But now when I see it it appears that people display it to incite disagreements and argument.

Romanticizing the Civil War has always been beyond me, especially the part about displaying the flag to honor ancestors who fought in the war. I would buy the excuse if people had shrines to their entire family history, not just the part that conveniently was about "states rights" and slavery.

[JCMach1]

40. IT's a freakin' symbol... it means nothing but what you want it to...

However, some horrible things were done under it and that's enough to deep six it for me.

[NOLALady]

41. Hatred not Heritage.

I have 3 direct ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. At least two directs who fought with the Union. Somehow, I do not think fondly of my Confederate ancestors when I see that flag.

My initial reaction to that flag is disgust and fear. It's the same feeling I have when I see a noose. The meaning is unmistakable.