Who's "not over" the Civil War?

[carolinayellowdog]

Hey y'all,

One of the maddening aspects of Internet discussion is the way insult is added to injury. "You're not just wrong, you're crazy and stupid and inbred and immoral..." A bizarre element of the South-bashing at DU is that WE'RE said to be the ones who can't "get over it" despite the facts that:
1. Not one Southern DUer has ever (to my knowledge) attributed negative traits to Northerners, Westerners, or Midwesterners in general based on bitterness over the war.
2. But hundreds if not thousands of times at DU negative traits have been attributed to Southerners by non-Southerners based on the Civil War.

Sometimes I think I was living in a fool's paradise before finding DU. "We" don't hate "them" anymore, not for generations now, so surely they don't hate us and want to come down here again with guns...do they? Well...

SO many posts have taunted us about "getting over it" but it's evident that the unquenched blood lust is up North. Or out West-- I was recently astounded by an Arizona woman ranting about how "we" went "there" and kicked "their" butts in the Civil War and should do so again. If you respond to the hate with anything less than "hit me again please sir" they call you a Southern apologist and lay it on that much thicker.

Can't help wondering, though, if all this implacable, hopeless regional hate that DU has exposed me to was nonexistent in the Clinton years, or the Carter years. Could "they're all contemptible" really have flourished in a Northern Democrat's heart while a Southerner carried the standard? Was it there lurking all along, only to be awakened by a particularly hateful faux-Southern Republican?

On a 1-10 scale, how severe a problem is regional hostility in the US? Before DU I'd have said 2 but now I'm up to 8.

CYD

[Rowdyboy]

1. I had no idea of the depth of the animosity against the south before

I found DU. I assure you, while many in the south are unimpressed by the rest of the country and have no desire to live in your states, we do not hate you. And, sadly, that seems to be the reaction of many people on this board toward the south.

[RoyGBiv]

2. This is an interesting subject ...

I'm going to use this note to try to get a friend to involve himself in this discussion, so if you see a newbie show up, give him a bit of slack. He's not a troll. (I actually doubt he'll bother, but it's possible.)

A lot of this depends on the circles in which you run. Let me explain.

Since about 1994, I've been heavily involved with groups for which the Civil War is very much a current interest. Some of these are distinctly "Southern" groups. Others are distinctly "anti-Southern." Still others are mostly neutral on the basic idea of regional affiliation, but as they say, there are no atheist in foxholes. Or, it's not possible to have a completely neutral opinion divorced of all regional attributes.

Regional animosity is alive and well among certain groups of people. These groups tend to be minority interests, but that says nothing of their vehemence or ability to influence public debate and perception. Various debates over the content of Southern state flags have aroused harsh rhetoric in both directions, the underlying theme of which is regional animosity, so I could not say that prior to visiting DU I found the hostility you see here to be an aberration. Whether you see it depends on the composition of the group with which you are interacting.

It goes both ways. Members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, a historical organization at its base, are generally fairly open with their contempt for "Yankees." Likewise, those that oppose the idea of remembrance of Confederate soldiers using any terms but those indicating "traitorous," "racist," or "wrong" are not uncommon. But, what I have found interesting is the denial of many non-Southerners that they paint Southerners with the broad brush. These individuals seem to think "Southern" is analogous to the kinds of extremest that form the core of such groups as the League of the South. By contrast, those Southerners that do express their animosity toward non-Southerners are not so reluctant to express themselves. It's an odd hypocrisy.

I am not offering a conclusion with this. I'd like to discuss the matter and thank you for bringing it to light. And, as I said, I am going to use this thread to try to draw someone with a great deal of knowledge and current interest in the subject to join us.

[Graffenried]

5. re: this is an interesting subject

A minority of Northerners feel themselves to be more American
than (white) Southerners, and assume the position of judge,
with (white) Southerners being the ones under judgment.

The ones who feel this way, and they are a minority, are
complacent about it; it's futile to complain, or to explain
the South to them.  They chalk up complaints or explanations
as "southern defensiveness and evasion", or even to
the southerner's being a "racist in denial."  When
people explain your speech by your supposed concealed
psychological mechanisms, then there can be no equal
communication with them.

Internet forums where people can write without any kind of
social pressure, like usenet and DU, let this minority pour
out their sectionalism, and there isn't much that can be done
about it.  Some of them obviously enjoy grit-baiting.

That's how I see the reality. Now, what can a grit do about
it?  Here are my ideas.

1. Understand yourself, and avoid resentment and anger.

2. Study grit-baiting writing.  Put it under the spotlight.

3. Discuss this privately with others who feel as you do. 
This can be very helpful when some of the baiting has got your
goat.

4. Remember, when somebody is trying to get your goat, hide
the goat.

Cheers.

[carolinayellowdog]

6. Welcome to DU, and thanks

Hey,

Of course it's a minority, and a small one. But when one is looking at dozens/hundreds of hateful posts that is hard to keep in mind. And yes, it's futile to complain or explain. Not just for the reasons you cite, but because of the amazing denial Roy mentioned. People can express the most over-the-top stereotyping scapegoating, but then if you complain they call you oversensitive.

This forum is private in the sense that posts don't appear on the main page, so I see it as a place to discuss these issues. As for baiting, some people do seem to feed on other's despair/discomfort/
distress, and we Southrons do tend to howl when we are hurt which just stimulates their appetite.

CYD

[Graffenried]

11. good point

Thanks for the information about this forum. That makes it a good place to discuss baiting. Looking around I noticed a Catholic forum in DU where the posters had similar concerns about Catholic-baiting.

Yes there is a special kind of denial that goes with the grit-baiting, the projection of a false belief that the baiter is just describing, just telling it like it is. There is a tilt in American culture where minorities or Southerners are concerned; the built-in bias of the culture makes it easier for baiters to characterize them as having a special viewpoint, a non-universal viewpoint: "You're controlled by the southern mindset, but I see things as they are".

Or, "You have to make allowances for X; he's from Down South."

I'm sure you've seen that kind of statement. The complacency of it can drive one nuts sometimes.

[Ripley]

3. I blame Rush Limbaugh and other extremists.

In the same manner that the Hate Radio folks have brainwashed a hard-core group of people into believing extreme views about the world and encouraged racism, hatred and general divisiveness between all kinds of Americans. Certain members of the liberal community (and specifically those who do not live in the South today) have heard the spewings of Mike Savage, Coulter and the same 10 ignorant hicks that call into CSPAN every morning to paint the South as being the same place it was in 1964. They take an extreme sliver of the Southern population and try to make the case that they are the majority.

Frankly, I don't think one can have a rational discussion about it here at DU. There are those who clearly will not stop accusing Southerners of being racist and supporters of slavery until they 1) admit they are the heart of everything wrong in America, 2) outright ban the CF and anything to do with discussing that war, unless it is to damn every single person who defended his home during that time (south of the Mason-Dixon of course), and 3) talk, walk, think in lockstep with THEM.

The thing that really irks me is that this board has defended the actions of the Japanese during WWII, Castro, and the Iraqi's fighting the US today. Yet they can't seem to understand how very similar many Southerners were to Iraqi's in fighting an "invading" Army.

But you are right. I haven't met one person in Alabama who relives the war as much as DU does.

[carolinayellowdog]

4. Microcosm vs. macrocosm

Hey,

The only reenactment I've ever attended was the Battle of Plymouth, in which Confederate forces retook a town that had been in Union hands for most of the war. Many of the Union soldiers killed and captured were local Carolina boys, including some of my ancestors (collateral.) Those captured ended up dying in Andersonville, treated even worse as Southern "traitors" than the Northern captives. Plymouth has the only (according to the local museum curator) CW monument honoring *both* its Union and Confederate dead. So my experience of CW memories is strong ambivalence and a deep sense of tragedy and horror.

Of course it's no surprise to me that there are still hard feelings about the war. But until DU, north vs. south hardly figured in my perception of it; south vs. south is such a huge factor that it tended to eclipse anything else. I imagined that the war was more forgotten outside the South, since it was fought here. But most of the posts accusing us of not "being over it" (and implicitly claiming that they already are) show so much rancor that it's clear how far from being "over it" they are. Frankly as a Virginia/North Carolina Southerner I mainly blame the Deep South for the CW. It was not just a rich man's war and poor man's fight. It was a Deep South hothead "let's you and him" fight in which the Upper South states that were dragged in reluctantly ended up paying by far the largest price in lives and property destroyed. And in the case of VA, territory lost.

But apart from those historical intra-Southern divisions, there are the continuing divisions in Southern society, making the pro-Confederate POV distinctly a minority perspective in the parts of the South I know best. I considered posting a thread entitled "I hate `the South'" in reference to the meme that "the South" conveys, which is of solidarity. There is no solid South; * carried most of our states by 50-odd percent. The solidly Republican part of the country doesn't even have a single generic name; its the Great Plains plus most of the Rocky Mountain states. How can it be satisfying to vilify something so vague when "the South" still pushes so many emotional buttons?

CYD

[BamaGirl]

7. One comment

and then I'll go post to the op.

How can it be satisfying to vilify something so vague when "the South" still pushes so many emotional buttons?

Some people just seem to have a need to hate, and around DU we Southerners seem to make the best target. "They" need someone to blame for the current mess the country is in and it is so much easier to blame a bunch in-bred rednecks than take a closer look at home. Afterall, some of those "blue states" were as close as our "red states". They need someone to hate and an excuse to hate them. They obviously don't know us, Deep South or border states. For example (have a look at LBN) Alabama gets picked on a lot. It's getting really old. Yeah, we went for Bush and have rep Senators, but our legislature is Dem. There is obviously some cross over vote here that the national party can't reach. That's the thing that should be focused on, not how stupid we must surely be.

[RoyGBiv]

10. Getting over it ...

I don't want to take this too far, but I want to offer another observation regarding this demand that we "get over it." Actually, I want to make a couple observations, but I'll start with the main one.

If you have the patience, try an experiment. Make a mental note of the names of people on DU who demand that Southerners "get over it" and say nothing, just wait. Eventually, when one of the threads involving Iraq and what we're doing to the people there starts, take note of any of these names and what they say. I've done this myself in a casual way -- that is not with anything like a system -- and what I expected to happen did happen.

Those who had shown contempt for modern Southerners as living in the past and unable to "get over it" had made various statements about the generations of Iraqis (and other people in the Middle East) after this war that would hate the US for it. And, I will add that the tone and content of their remarks indicated they felt this hatred would be justified.

It is, as I said before, an odd hypocrisy. How is it that people can intellectually understand the hatred this nation is inspiring around the world, yet those same people cannot understand even the mild levels of contempt some Southerners still hold with regard to the events that took place in the mid 19th century, which is not really all that long ago, not when I can fire off an e-mail to someone who is the granddaughter of a soldier of that war.

Quite frankly, the fact this nation has remained as united as it has in the wake of the Civil War without excessive totalitarian tactics is rather amazing. It is in fact almost unique in the course of world history. No draconian measures were taken against this South as a whole, depsite what some believe, and Southerners did, generally, get over it to the extent of becoming a part of the body politic. Of course this leads us in other directions, such as the reasons this happened and how it combined with the national penchant for "otherizing" and inventing a common enemy to keep the majorities in the country thinking as a common unit. This could be a subject for another time.

The secondary observation is actually a tangent that I won't follow too far at the moment. To a great extent, I think people, especially those who live in more liberal areas of the country, are still stung by the disappointment of November and are seeking scapegoats. This is the origin of that absurd "Jesusland" cartoon. November isn't the origin of this; there are indeed cultural differences within the US, which is natural and a good thing, imo. The problem is that many so-called progressives, for all their rhetoric about tolerance and openness, really only mean they want their own views to be tolerated and do not feel any compulsion to be tolerant of other views. This is not a regional thing, per se. But, it just so happens that the cooler climes presently tend to be more culturally inclined toward liberal mindsets.

[BamaGirl]

8. The last couple of days on DU, I'll give it a 10

I have experienced the regional hate thing. I grew up in Atlanta and has a teenager in the 80's. There were quite a lot of ppl from other areas of the country moving into the school district. Some of them were extremely unpleasant. I wonder if those ppl still hold the same views of the South?

I moved to Alabama in 93 and lived in NV for a year. The year in NV was pretty awful. The minute you open your mouth the stupid stereotyping starts. Anyway, other than that year I haven't seen this kind of thing in 15 years. It's frustrating that the party that supposedly has the thinkers has so many ppl bound and determined to hang onto the stereotypes.

There have been 3 "bash the South" posts in the last two days. It seems to go in waves around here. I have definitely come to the conclusion though that most ppl don't want to understand what make the South tick. They'd much prefer to stay in their comfy little boxes. It's a shame because that attitude has a lot to do with why the party can't win national elections in the South anymore.

[QC]

9. For a small but extremely active and vocal minority here,

politics is not about winning elections, making people's lives better, etc. It's about strutting and preening and declaring one's superiority to the rubes. Those are the ones who do most of the bashing.

And it really is true that even though I have spent my life in Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida, the only place where I have regularly encountered people eager to refight the Civil War is DU. Kinda ironic that "enlightened" "liberals" and "progressives" would be the ones fixated on a war that ended so long ago. But again, I think that's because it gives the haters what they desperately need: someone to hate.

[ernstbass]

15. Your post really strikes a chord with me

When I came to DU I thought I was with like-minded persons. After all, we are all dems in a red world (for the most part). I was and am absolutely shocked at the vitriol and hatred for the South and those of us in the South. And if I try to defend the South - boy oh boy!!I just never imagined that of all the places, a progressive dem website would be the source of so much derision for the South. I have lived my entire life in VA and NC and rarely have I heard any prejudice to Americans from other parts of the country (the one exception was my grandmother who referred to anyone who couldn't drive well as a "Yankee driver")I'm really going to have to work on not letting this get the best of me.

[autorank]

12. I'm totally over it. We're well adjusted in Northern Virginia.

This area has two great ways to deal with the Civil War. First, we have a bunch of great battle fields which we fight like heck to save against development. We visit them and ponder the sadness. Second, we've got a pretty active re-enactor movement in VA, MD, and PA. Nice bunch of guys who are a cross between history buffs and frustrated actors. They get together, do their thing, and get along very well. Seriously, a bunch of guys with guns re-enacting a war without ever hearing about a hostile shot fired. It's been around long enough to find fathers and son's in the same regiments. They're great.

I've been here since 1983 and have never once heard anyone, from the north or the south (we're a big mix) EVER talk about the war in bitter or xenophobic terms.

People use the anonymity of the internet to act like assholes every now and then. I wouldn't worry about it. These are the same people who eff with your head on other topics.

Now, anybody want a thread on why a statue of John Brown should/should not be placed in the mezzanine of the US Capitol (just kidding!!!).

We're all Americans, like it or not, and none of us have one single living relative we can point to who was injured or died in that war. We've got nastier wars to worry about and bigger issues like election fraud (Nashville Conference, 4/8-10)

Rock on!

[RoyGBiv]

13. Well adjusted ...

The thing is, a lot of people who demand Southerners "get over it" look at reenacting as a manifestation of Southerners not having gotten over it. Of course I've yet to encounter one of these people who has ever been to a reenactment or understands the idea of "living history."

Preservation is another embattled area. When Disney was trying to turn Manassas into a Dixie/Disneyland, I accidentally ended up in the vicious argument with someone about why he should even care. His idea was that all the battlefields being protected were wastes and should be bulldozed. It wasn't pretty.

[autorank]

14. Well, they don't know reenactment. Disney ugh

I think reenactors are really terrific people. They preserve and honor history. If they tell you reenactors aren't over it, ask them why they're not shooting each other in the ass.

There are a lot of corporate interests up here trying to trash the battle fields. The resistance to that is significant. When you replace your history with a theme park, you live in 'fantasy land' forever. Disney got it's ass handed to it. They met the New Army of Northern Virginia.

BTW, we do have a Republican legislature for the first time in anyone's memory. They tried to reinterpret Jefferson's/Mason's constitution (VA's ruling document) by saying religion and state were one. The 'sane' Republicans plus the Democrats knocked the sucker out of the park in a two hour debate. You can do a lot of stupid things in Virginia, or at least try, but the one thing we don't allow here is for someone to mess with Jefferson and the other notables. The legislature also considered a resolution to outlaw thongs and baggy pants. That lost too, even without a clear position by Jefferson.

Keep the faith!

[RoyGBiv]

16. Reenactors ...

This is sort of off the topic, but I wanted to mention it.

They are great people by and large. A very good friend of mine is with a Michigan reenactor group and knows more about artillery from the period than anyone I know. It was simply an amazing experience to wander battlefields with him and have him point out cannon tube, describe who made them, when, and whether that particular tube would have been used at that particular battle. The man is a fountain of knowledge and wisdom.

His unit travels with both Confederate and Union gear because for some reason Confederate artillery units are often under-represented at reenactment events, especially the smaller ones. He's experienced people who look askance at him for this. "Why would you want to play a Confederate?" he is asked. Some people just don't get it.

Unfortunately, a lot of people today got their impression of reenactors from one of two sources, or both: the book _Confederates in the Attic_ and an episode of the Real World on MTV in which the producers apparently looked long and hard to find a Confederate reenacting unit with an idiot windbag in it.

As a related aside, there is simply nothing like being near a cannon when it fires. It is exhilarating and terrifying at the same time.

[autorank]

17. That's interesting stuff.

I'll get out to Bull Run or wherever next time the battle rages and check out the cannons. People ought to give the negative stuff a rest. I see the war as a great sacrifice by average Americans for the ineptitude and tragic limitations of our leadership. You can take it right back here to Virginia. Every one of the founders knew slavery was wrong, every one, but they couldn't give it up. Fortunately, their words sealed the fate of slavery. I like the PBS series on the Civil War, particularly the letters from soldiers back home. These were amazing people.

Take care.

[bluedonkey]

18. I,too,was amazed

by the Southern bashing here,after the election.It was hurtful to me and I'm not even a Southerner.I'm a transplant from Germany,been here for 25 years and wouldn't live anyplace else,if you paid me!I've lived in many different places/countries,but here,in Louisiana,I feel at home,crazy politics and all.
I admit I feel a dislike for the kind of 'Superior Yankee'we find on DU!
I've come to the conclusion they are the ones that can't get over the fact the South has risen again and is alive and well!Sometimes I want to tell them "We might have lost the War,but we kicked y'alls ass none theless!"Of course I don't do that,being polite and all.
To understand the South requires living here for a while,it's just too complex to judge from the 'outside' and that includes the Dixie Flag.

I decided not to even read the 'baiting post' anymore.If we don't respond,they lose!